167 réponses à ce sujet

[Asenza]

@ieldra,

You're not making sense. He has already 'brought' some good into the galaxy, by helping out on the suicide mission. He joined for two reasons, one because he there was a real possibility it would end in his death, and two, because he wanted to help save some colonists. I forget the exact quote but it goes, "my mortality does not worry me, the dissapearance of your colonists, does."

I am not removing anything. As I said in my previous post, he has changed if romanced and reunited with his son. Not just in outlook but his dynamic, or character arc, whatever you want to call it, it has been changed.

Thane has affirmed his will to live in his final romance scene Shepard, and in that shadow broker letter. He does not need to do some great heroic action to prove his will to live, we have already seen it. Thane has gone from distantly discussing his death to crying and and anger about it.

His story was set up to explore themes of mortality and redemption and succeeded in making their points. "I have meditated and prayed, and done good deeds. Atoned for the evils I've done, prepared. I consider my body's death and a chill settles in my gut. I am afraid and it shames me." So ME2 has that covered. Are you arguing that Thane should stay exactly the same, that characters can only have one basic setup and can never deviate from that?

Did Garrus stay as a frustrated C-sec officer between ME1 and 2? Liara is a... difficult case to make here, since all her character progressions happened off screen, but l'll toss her in, too.

[Unschuld]

Character change and progression =/= physical change (not always anyway).

[FlyinElk212]

Enmystic wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Allowing Thane to get better simply would destroy the theme of his romantic arc.

This argument has been rehashed so many times.  No. It. Won't.

And yet no one has given a proper reason as to why it won't.

Thane's romance is ALL about Thane's fear of death, and how for the first time in his life, he's reaching out to someone else to try and rectify this. He finds comfort in Shepard because he knows that, through her, he WILL reach fulfillment and atonement that he feels he might not have without her before he dies.

Again, if I had a crippling fear of heights, and went to a loved one to try and seek comfort for this fear, would the proper, dramatic response be, "It's ok FlyinElk, let's ride a plane together to overcome your fear" or "It's ok FlyinElk, you don't have to worry about heights because we'll never ride a plane again".

For a dramatic, fulfilling storyline, it's the former. For a sentiment that destroys the intrigue of the original theme, it's the latter.

[FlyinElk212]

Asenza wrote...

@ieldra,

......I forget the exact quote but it goes, "my mortality does not worry me, the dissapearance of your colonists, does."

I am not removing anything. As I said in my previous post, he has changed if romanced and reunited with his son. Not just in outlook but his dynamic, or character arc, whatever you want to call it, it has been changed.

Thane has affirmed his will to live in his final romance scene Shepard, and in that shadow broker letter.

.....His story was set up to explore themes of mortality and redemption and succeeded in making their points. "I have meditated and prayed, and done good deeds. Atoned for the evils I've done, prepared. I consider my body's death and a chill settles in my gut. I am afraid and it shames me." So ME2 has that covered. Are you arguing that Thane should stay exactly the same, that characters can only have one basic setup and can never deviate from that?

That's just it- Thane doesn't change. He simply reveals his true colours to Shepard at the penultimate romance scene. This entire time, he's stated that he's unafraid of dying. He constantly pushes Shepard away from his true feelings about his death.

When he finally reveals it to Shepard, Shepard offers him comfort and satisfaction in his dying days. She offers him a chance to become unafraid of death by making his final few moments fulfilling, fully reaching ultimate atonement.

Thane as a character can absolutely still change with his death--he can go into his death unafraid due to the love and experiences Shepard has given him.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

jtav wrote...

I romanced Thane partly because he was dying. Partly because I'm a sucker for tragedy, and partly because I went to the hospital every day for months while my aunt succumbed to an incurable disease and I saw what it did to my mother. We prayed for a cure. There was none. But we all did find a measure of peace and closure. Every time there's a miracle cure for something in fiction, it reinforces that this is something so horrible that it can't possibly be endured so we better hope for a miracle. That's an insult to those of us who have had loved ones die and to our loved ones. Am I saying miracle cure stories can't be told. Not at all. Escapism is lovely. But there's value, tremendous value, in stories where a person dies from their illness Because it reminds us that "dying" isn't "dead." It's possible to reconcile with our family, do good, and even find love. As Thane does. And it's possible to find the strength and courage to stay with those we love and let our hearts break while still being glad of the time we had. As Shepard will.

I very much agree. Which is why I think that if there is a chance that Thane survives, then it should have a cost. For example, Thane states that he does not wish to spend his last days expiring in a hospital bed, with tubes and machinery keeping him alive. But Shepard decides to go against Thane's wishes, and have him put in cryo until a lung transplant is available. Even though Thane denies transplant treatment.

And so, when Thane awakens, he is disappointed at Shepard for going against his desires. But he is alive, but at the cost of broken trust.

There are many other scenarios I could give, but I agree that a timely cure from the Hanar won't do justice to what his character has been through in ME2. There needs to be a cost, like the loss of trust, using unethical technology, or Thane still being alive, but unable to fight, therefore losing meaning to his life as being an assassin with no other skills to spare.

[Asenza]

@Flyinelk,

What are you talking about? No one wants to die under any circumstances ever. I don't know where you got this harebrained idea that Thanes arc is about him overcoming his fear of death but you are provably wrong (see my previous post). Thane does change.

I cant believe I have to say this, but people fear death because it is the unknown. That's at least half the reason why religions have formed. To answer questions and try to give meaning and insight into things we don't understand, reassurance. But that still doesn't help people 'overcome' their fear of death.

Everyone is afraid of dying. Thane doesn't have a monopoly on it, and if you really think that is all there is to him then you simply do not know what you are talking about.

@ unschuld,

Who was talking about physical change? We are just saying thane's outlook and character arc has changed. It doesn't change the fact that he still has Keprals syndrome.... however there is the cure the hangars are working on, in addition to a number of other life-extending methods available that would make this conflict absurd if they are mentioned in ME2 but not later addressed.

Modifié par Asenza, 12 décembre 2011 - 05:46 .

[jtav]

@Tasha

And, see, that could be interesting. I'd have some concerns about whether enough resources could be allocated to do it justice, but I'd have to see it first.

Modifié par jtav, 12 décembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[lyssalu]

I'm sure you cab seeing the possible parallel here. The problem with Thane is that his story with its themes of atonement and death is set up to end with his death. I think you're in denial about that - the only way I'd be convinced of the opposite is if a writer came out and told me I was wrong. So while Thane surviving isn't impossible, it's considerably more difficult for his story in ME2 to retain its impact that way. I challenge you to present such a scenario.

i really, really disagree, and you have as well --

this thought about what his arc is about is generally the type of conjecture that the people who want him dead have continually been making, but you were just sitting here pointing out the inconsistencies bioware has been keeping with it re:lotsb and other such instances, so i'm really confused as to why you're so adamant about believing it.

have you completed or seen a completed romance with thane? after romancing him, it's very easy to interpret his story arc as one of awakening as opposed to one of "atonement" or acceptance of inevitable death. i'm really confused in particular as to this atonement point, because atonement implies guilt -- to which thane expressly and adamantly says, time and again, that he doesn't experience it. i mean, that was kind of the whole point behind him taking on the philosophy of dualism when explaining the whole, "my body is a weapon" thing to shepard in one of the first conversations you can have with him.

a romanced thane confesses to shepard that she awakened him from "battle sleep," a condition in which he felt he was already dead to begin with. it was why he was resigned to die in his recruitment mission. after which, if you're not a douche bag, he reconnects with his son and realizes that he has people to live for once again. during the culmination scene of the romance, thane comes to shepard angry because he is no longer at peace with the idea of death, and he cries and does not wish to accept it -- he is afraid. add to this the hints that have been dropped at a possible cure as well as the information obtained through lotsb, and it's really not hard to interpret his arc in the complete opposite way that you do.

mass effect has abused the trope of overcoming impossible odds time and again; it's really not that hard to envision thane's struggle in this manner as well.

Modifié par lyssalu, 12 décembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[Enmystic]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Enmystic wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Allowing Thane to get better simply would destroy the theme of his romantic arc.

This argument has been rehashed so many times.  No. It. Won't.

And yet no one has given a proper reason as to why it won't.

I have.  Many people have, but I don't want to turn this post into an essay.

Thane's romance is ALL about Thane's fear of death, and how for the first time in his life, he's reaching out to someone else to try and rectify this. He finds comfort in Shepard because he knows that, through her, he WILL reach fulfillment and atonement that he feels he might not have without her before he dies.

What?  From my perspective, Thane didn't fear death until he got into a relationship with Shepard and found his son.  He almost directly states this during the final romance scene.  That's why Thane comes to Shepard before the suicide mission if you romance him.  After years of thinking he was set on dying he now isn't and he's ashamed.  Is fear of death part of Thane's romance, yes, but not all of it.  Before he met Shepard he was set on dying because he believed he had nothing to live for other than to make things brighter before he dies. Thane didn't want to live.  In fact if you fail Thane's loyalty mission he's pretty much suicidal.  His wife was dead, his son was estranged, Thane killed for a living, and on top of that he had a slow acting illness, how would you feel?  In his mind he had nothing left to lose.

Thane now fears death because he found benefit in living.  He saw his life turn around a little. 

For a dramatic, fulfilling storyline, it's the former. For a sentiment that destroys the intrigue of the original theme, it's the latter.

What you feel is dramatically appropriate is your opinion.  I think Thane's story can be dramatically appropriate whether he lives or dies.  That's just how I feel and why I push a choice.

Ieldra2
I've read all the arguments for Thane's survival, and they all have a point. But they also miss the point. It is, I repeat, not a matter of worldbuilding or world consistency, but of the themes his story was set up to explore. You don't mess with such things lightly. I must admit I'm curious what the writers at Bioware will do with it.

There can be many themes to a character.  If written smartly those themes won't disappear.  They will develop differently.  There are way to show mortality and not having a choice and still give a choice to the player.  Character death is also something you don't mess with lightly.

[lyssalu]

enmystic, it's not just from your perspective that thane didn't fear death until he met shepard -- it's kind of a fact about his character. his recruitment mission was meant to end in his death; he was effectively committing suicide. he was at peace with death until he met shepard, because shepard awakened him from battle sleep and gave him reason to live, romance or not. kolyat is a big part of thane's new found fear of death.

[lyssalu]

jtav wrote...

I romanced Thane partly because he was dying. Partly because I'm a sucker for tragedy, and partly because I went to the hospital every day for months while my aunt succumbed to an incurable disease and I saw what it did to my mother. We prayed for a cure. There was none. But we all did find a measure of peace and closure. Every time there's a miracle cure for something in fiction, it reinforces that this is something so horrible that it can't possibly be endured so we better hope for a miracle. That's an insult to those of us who have had loved ones die and to our loved ones. Am I saying miracle cure stories can't be told. Not at all. Escapism is lovely. But there's value, tremendous value, in stories where a person dies from their illness Because it reminds us that "dying" isn't "dead." It's possible to reconcile with our family, do good, and even find love. As Thane does. And it's possible to find the strength and courage to stay with those we love and let our hearts break while still being glad of the time we had. As Shepard will.

over the last year, my aunt with whom i am very close was diagnosed with colon cancer and was told that she wouldn't survive it.  it had matasticized in her liver, as well as in various other parts of her body.  they told her that she had no hope for recovery and had maybe a month at most to live.  yet here she is, a year later, in remission.  as such, "miracle cure" is a really offensive phrase to me given its connotations.  a lot of people can project experiences similar to this onto thane and see his story as one of overcoming death as opposed to accepting it and finding peace with it.  that is hard enough to do in real life; i don't want to have to do it in a video game where the theme of the entire game has been one of overcoming impending death.

Modifié par lyssalu, 12 décembre 2011 - 06:31 .

[jtav]

Thank you. And I don't discount him. That's not the whole reason I romanced him. I did that because "siha" made me melt in a puddle. But when people say "only people who hate Thane want him to die" I get testy.

[Unschuld]

Asenza wrote...


@ unschuld,

Who was talking about physical change? We are just saying thane's outlook and character arc has changed. It doesn't change the fact that he still has Keprals syndrome.... however there is the cure the hangars are working on, in addition to a number of other life-extending methods available that would make this conflict absurd if they are mentioned in ME2 but not later addressed.

His character progression is an entity that is separate from his physical condition. Just because he changes in his world view and spirituality does not mean he can/NEEDS to be cured for the sake of the story and his further development as a character. It is one possible outcome, but not essential. Also, just because there was mention of a cure does not mean it will be implemented, just that it is there. It is possible that it is too late in Thane's condition to be cured but will save other Drell in lesser stages of illness, or the treatment won't work at all.

[wildannie]

Unschuld wrote...

His character progression is an entity that is separate from his physical condition. Just because he changes in his world view and spirituality does not mean he can/NEEDS to be cured for the sake of the story and his further development as a character. It is one possible outcome, but not essential. Also, just because there was mention of a cure does not mean it will be implemented, just that it is there. It is possible that it is too late in Thane's condition to be cured but will save other Drell in lesser stages of illness, or the treatment won't work at all.

We know from LotSB that he can be treated.
We know that when romanced he does not want to die

Why would Thane not pursue treatment?
Why would Bioware toy with the fans by putting that out there?

None of us need Bioware to teach us of the pain of losing someone close to us.   I play Mass Effect for fun, making my favourite character die in every playthrough would seriously kill the fun factor.  

There should be emotion, and tragedy in ME3 but there needs to be some balance too.  Having the tragedy concentrated upon one LI is seriously unbalanced, removing the opportunity for 'best ending' from a whole section of the fanbase.

[FlyinElk212]

Enmystic wrote...

Thane now fears death because he found benefit in living.  He saw his life turn around a little.

For a dramatic, fulfilling storyline, it's the former. For a sentiment that destroys the intrigue of the original theme, it's the latter.

What you feel is dramatically appropriate is your opinion.  I think Thane's story can be dramatically appropriate whether he lives or dies.  That's just how I feel and why I push a choice.

Hmmm....you know, I watched the entire Thane romance again on youtube to see if I could persuade you into thinking that Thane has feared death all along, and that the final romance scene is all about him finally coming to terms with it and seeking someone else's emotional support to get through it, but the way the scene's written, it really could be interpretted two ways: the aforementioned way, and the way you mention in your post.

I guess what the "Should Thane Die" debate comes down to is how you as a viewer interpretted Thane's romance. If you view it as a "Thane has never been at terms with his death" scenario, then you'll want him to inevitably die. If you view it as a "Thane NOW isn't at terms w/ his death (has reasons to live)" scenario, then you'll want the chance for him to live.

As for me, I'm all about having the option in-game to save him; I just don't think I'll ever take it.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 12 décembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

It seems that Bioware Devs really struck a chord with Thane Krios and the Story arc he has.

Me, I can see it both ways, but....

I think that the option to cure him should come either thru a romance with Femshep, or from Kolyat and a persuasive Shepard (male or female). And that assumes that Kolyat was prevented from killing his target (Thane's LM sucessful). IMO, any other way may seem tacked on...

[Radahldo]

We prayed for a cure. There was none. But we all did find a measure of peace and closure. Every time there's a miracle cure for something in fiction, it reinforces that this is something so horrible that it can't possibly be endured so we better hope for a miracle. That's an insult to those of us who have had loved ones die and to our loved ones. Am I saying miracle cure stories can't be told. Not at all. 

Why are you talking about praying? This isnt a matter of divine intervention there are treatments in the game hinted at no supplications to higher power needed. There have so far been treatments for every debilitating illness we've seen in mass effect, even death.

But there's value, tremendous value, in stories where a person dies from their illness Because it reminds us that "dying" isn't "dead."

No, not for everyone  as not everyone believes in afterlife; not everyone is apart of a religion that permits an afterlife. A dead person should stay dead. It's the most irreversible thing in the world, death.
 The story has already shown me that death isn't final with Shepard. Thane is not dead, he js dying. Their is also value in stories where a dying person, with a fuller appreciation of life, overcomes their illness (or at least sets it in remission) and enjoys life with their loved ones.

I can respect your interpretation and reaction to the story.  Evidently many of us have had emotional  experience. I think this is cause our experience with thane is not something anchored around death, but him valuing his life. 
Moreover,I do not see how  mandatory death, and not the general decline in plotting, is what people fear will undermine thanes story. Clearly with Shepard and other weird decisions, the gravity of these things have been spoiled at bit. Its an anomaly for Keprals to be the one (even temporarily) irreversible thing.

 

I draw my strength from those family members lives, not their deaths

 

Yes, I agree. We all have had bad experiences. Wanting Thane to live is not shirking away from reality, which is  something that's been repeatedly implied for months now.  

It feels a lot of the time people are arguing the general concept of "choice undermines the outcome" rather than how choice would specifically undermine this story. I think if someone is objective about how death and illness has been presented in the game it had already been undermined to an extent. 

Modifié par Radahldo, 12 décembre 2011 - 11:27 .