194 réponses à ce sujet

[Elouq]

I agree with Quole. The comics look terrible.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1136342t54 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Blackwater is in the bed with the government , they don't NEED spies.

Also, Blackwater gets contracts in the billions. They have money.
But take a look at the richest people and companies on the planet - does anyone of htem have a single warship? No.

Do they have the money and manpower for it? Obviously Cerberus does which is the main thing. Not saying that they should have the capability to have a fleet but they seem to and from what I hear its explained pretty well. Like I said multiple times before they seem to have a more better research department and industry than Blackwater periiod. Plus the money for it seems immense.

Not reading, are we?
Underlined.
Unelss you think big, multi-national companies dont' have research devisions and don't have more money than some countries?

That one Frigate is also has the most advanced technology most vessels in Citadel space does and has the capability of going up against Collector vessels that usually slaughter cruisers by taking little to no damage. While one Frigate it is disingenuos to just say its a simple frigate.

No. The collector ship never slaughters cruisers.
The Normandy might be an advanced frigate, but it's still a frigate.

Only wiht a Thanix does it approach cruiser-level firepwoer, and it cna take out the Collector ships without it.

Plus when did I say it gives them the abililty to pump out dozens of ships? I repeatedly said that I doubt that they could do it even with everything I said so how am I saying they have a no limits fallacy?

if they can't pump up ships, they can't have a navy. If they cna't have a navy, they can't establish space superiority.
If they can't establish space superiority, they can't win.

[1136342t54_]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not reading, are we?
Underlined.
Unelss you think big, multi-national companies dont' have research devisions and don't have more money than some countries?

*Sighs* Its pretty clear Cerberus is far better than these companies for the simple fact that they can make a actual military force that can pose a threat. Why is it that difficult to understand that Cerberus for some reason simply has more resources than they do since they can clearly create and maintain a small fleet of warships? 

No. The collector ship never slaughters cruisers.
The Normandy might be an advanced frigate, but it's still a frigate.

Only wiht a Thanix does it approach cruiser-level firepwoer, and it cna take out the Collector ships without it.

The Collectors ambushed a Turian patrol. Those vessels wreckage easily resembled the silhouette of a Turian cruiser. Also in the codex patrols consist of cruisers.

Admiral Hackett after Arrival (if you do it before suicide mission) basically mentions how Alliance ships are dissappearing and suspects its the collectors.

if they can't pump up ships, they can't have a navy. If they cna't have a navy, they can't establish space superiority.
If they can't establish space superiority, they can't win.

So again I ask when did I state it?

I listed a group of reasons why it may be possible but then stated even then its unlikely. Its obvious they have gained some unknown resources and ways of gaining the resources and personnel that we just don't know about for now.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1136342t54 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not reading, are we?
Underlined.
Unelss you think big, multi-national companies dont' have research devisions and don't have more money than some countries?

*Sighs* Its pretty clear Cerberus is far better than these companies for the simple fact that they can make a actual military force that can pose a threat. Why is it that difficult to understand that Cerberus for some reason simply has more resources than they do since they can clearly create and maintain a small fleet of warships?

No. Nothing is clear. I'm saying Cerberus having a fleet doesn't make sense. You try to counter by "yeah, well they have a fleet". That is not debunking, that s's basicly saying "I dont' care".

As for the ships in the comic - seems to me those are fighters. The one in the hangar seems smaller than Normandy Mk1. There is one that resembles a cruiser, but it's hard to tell.
Alternatively, the comic artist may just have no clue.

No. The collector ship never slaughters cruisers.
The Normandy might be an advanced frigate, but it's still a frigate.

Only wiht a Thanix does it approach cruiser-level firepwoer, and it cna take out the Collector ships without it.

The Collectors ambushed a Turian patrol. Those vessels wreckage easily resembled the silhouette of a Turian cruiser. Also in the codex patrols consist of cruisers.

Admiral Hackett after Arrival (if you do it before suicide mission) basically mentions how Alliance ships are dissappearing and suspects its the collectors.

Those were far-flug colonies clse to terminus systems. Military presence was next ot nill. Also, those were frigates.
If a Collector ship can take out a cruiser pack, then the writers messed up big time, since an un-upgraded Normandy (which hass LESS firepower than a cruiser) can take it out with several shots.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Those were far-flug colonies clse to terminus systems. Military presence was next ot nill. Also, those were frigates.
If a Collector ship can take out a cruiser pack, then the writers messed up big time, since an un-upgraded Normandy (which hass LESS firepower than a cruiser) can take it out with several shots.

Because there's no possibility that the Collectors might have used the same technology they used to black out entire colonies against those Alliance ships, which the Normandy is immune to because of EDI's data mining on the same ship, right?

Or, hell, maybe they ambushed the ships the same way they ambushed the Normandy multiple times.

[masterkajo]

I have a quick question: From a timeline perspective, when does ME:Invasion take place? Before, during or after ME3? (Also what about the new book, Deception? When does it take place?)

Just asking because where I live the comic won't be released until April 2012 when all 4 individual issues are printed - we only get a collection of all 4 issues (was so for Redemption & Evolution+Bonus:Inquisition&Incursion) hopefully with Convition bonus.

Thanks

Modifié par masterkajo, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[Someone With Mass]

masterkajo wrote...

I have a quick question: From a timeline perspective, when does ME:Invasion take place? Before, during or after ME3?

Just asking because where I live the comic won't be released until April 2012 when all 4 individual issues are printed - we only get a collection of all 4 issues (was so for Redemption & Evolution+Bonus:Inquisition&Incursion) hopefully with Convition bonus.

I think it's taking place before ME3 but after Arrival.

[masterkajo]

Someone With Mass wrote...

masterkajo wrote...

I have a quick question: From a timeline perspective, when does ME:Invasion take place? Before, during or after ME3?

Just asking because where I live the comic won't be released until April 2012 when all 4 individual issues are printed - we only get a collection of all 4 issues (was so for Redemption & Evolution+Bonus:Inquisition&Incursion) hopefully with Convition bonus.

I think it's taking place before ME3 but after Arrival.

Ah ok, thanks. So far I haven't followed any ME3 news just to be save on the spoiler side (I still know much more than I would like though). But when it takes place before the third game, I might as well try my luck with darkhorsedigital and see if I can get a copy there to read.

Also, about the new book, Deception. I guess it also takes place before ME3?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Those were far-flug colonies clse to terminus systems. Military presence was next ot nill. Also, those were frigates.
If a Collector ship can take out a cruiser pack, then the writers messed up big time, since an un-upgraded Normandy (which hass LESS firepower than a cruiser) can take it out with several shots.

Because there's no possibility that the Collectors might have used the same technology they used to black out entire colonies against those Alliance ships, which the Normandy is immune to because of EDI's data mining on the same ship, right?

Or, hell, maybe they ambushed the ships the same way they ambushed the Normandy multiple times.

Wut? How do you black out ships you have no connection to? With magic?

And a cruiser PACK is not something one can ambush easily.
Cruisers > frigates. More armor, bigger guns. And several of them. Given how long it took for the Collector to take out 1 frigate (Normandy Mk1), you really think it can take on 3 cruisers? Seriously?

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wut? How do you black out ships you have no connection to? With magic?

And a cruiser PACK is not something one can ambush easily.
Cruisers > frigates. More armor, bigger guns. And several of them. Given how long it took for the Collector to take out 1 frigate (Normandy Mk1), you really think it can take on 3 cruisers? Seriously?

Yeah, because those colonies the Collectors disabled probably had their wi-fi settings set to "Open"

I'm sure that we can avoid all Reaper cyberwarfare attacks if we just set it to "Restricted" or insert a WPA password.


I hope you are aware of the fact that those cruisers are using sensors to navigate. If you jam those sensors or destroy them outright, those ships will be completely blind and unable to counterattack.

Just because they didn't use every single trick they had on the SSV Normandy, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wut? How do you black out ships you have no connection to? With magic?

And a cruiser PACK is not something one can ambush easily.
Cruisers > frigates. More armor, bigger guns. And several of them. Given how long it took for the Collector to take out 1 frigate (Normandy Mk1), you really think it can take on 3 cruisers? Seriously?

Yeah, because those colonies the Collectors disabled probably had their wi-fi settings set to "Open"

I'm sure that we can avoid all Reaper cyberwarfare attacks if we just set it to "Restricted" or insert a WPA password.


I hope you are aware of the fact that those cruisers are using sensors to navigate. If you jam those sensors or destroy them outright, those ships will be completely blind and unable to counterattack.

Just because they didn't use every single trick they had on the SSV Normandy, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Bollocks. Do you evne know how things work?

You CAN'T hack a closed system (a ship is basicly that as it can block all incoming traffic). It doesn't work.
Neither can you hack trough sensors.

And we have now entered the magical land of Making no Sense, since apprently the reapers/collectors are morons and don't use their weapons.

And the guns on Horizon sure looked blacked out....

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 décembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


And the guns on Horizon sure looked blacked out....

You mean the guns controlled by EDI? Yeah...

[1136342t54_]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No. Nothing is clear. I'm saying Cerberus having a fleet doesn't make sense. You try to counter by "yeah, well they have a fleet". That is not debunking, that s's basicly saying "I dont' care".

From what we know of Cerberus it wouldn't make much sense but then again it isn't necessarily impossible especially since we know what group they are working with after ME2. A poster even came in here and stated they explained it in the script and would likely explain it in ME3.

You act like everything I said was hard evidence for why they should have a fleet. It was mostly stating they had a vast amount of resources and personnel and it isn't impossible they should have more that we wouldn't know about. I even stated many many times that I seriously doubt that with what they have now they should have a fleet. You are essentially arguing with somone who basically knows Cerberus shouldn't have a fleet at this point but a rather large military ground force at the very least. They aren't the first private organization in ME to have one.

As for the ships in the comic - seems to me those are fighters. The one in the hangar seems smaller than Normandy Mk1. There is one that resembles a cruiser, but it's hard to tell.
Alternatively, the comic artist may just have no clue.

They showed a cruiser in the comic before and other vessels. Even some during the renegade ending of ME3.

Those were far-flug colonies clse to terminus systems. Military presence was next ot nill. Also, those were frigates.
If a Collector ship can take out a cruiser pack, then the writers messed up big time, since an un-upgraded Normandy (which hass LESS firepower than a cruiser) can take it out with several shots.

Look at this video.At 21:40 Admiral Hackett mentions the Alliance ships they sent to investigate the Collectors haven't reported back at all. I'd assume they are military ships. Those Turian ships were cruisers. They look very similar to the Turian cruisers in the ME1 fleet battle.

Also according to the codex.

Cruisers perform routine independent "show the flag" patrols in settled systems and lead flotillas of frigates in small engagements, such as pirate suppression campaigns.

Basically the codex even supports the assumption those were cruisers.


An un upgraded Normandy has to actually use its speed (which is greater than any ship in Citadel Space) to actually get in close to kill it with about a dozen Javelin missiles which also carry multiple disruptor torpedoes.The Normandy SR2 was specifically built to survive against the Collector cruiser only barely.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 15 décembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[1136342t54_]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wut? How do you black out ships you have no connection to? With magic?

And a cruiser PACK is not something one can ambush easily.
Cruisers > frigates. More armor, bigger guns. And several of them. Given how long it took for the Collector to take out 1 frigate (Normandy Mk1), you really think it can take on 3 cruisers? Seriously?

Actually ME warships (at least some of them) do have wireless connections. Even EDI states so. It is the main reason why she believes her hacking abilities woul be so useful.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1136342t54 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wut? How do you black out ships you have no connection to? With magic?

And a cruiser PACK is not something one can ambush easily.
Cruisers > frigates. More armor, bigger guns. And several of them. Given how long it took for the Collector to take out 1 frigate (Normandy Mk1), you really think it can take on 3 cruisers? Seriously?

Actually ME warships (at least some of them) do have wireless connections. Even EDI states so. It is the main reason why she believes her hacking abilities woul be so useful.

I know warship have wireless connections. But such connections can be made perfectly secure. There's a even an option for BLOCK all incoming traffic durign any comabt or in dangerous areas. No amount of hacking can go trough that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1136342t54 wrote...
They showed a cruiser in the comic before and other vessels. Even some during the renegade ending of ME3.

Those looked like transports.

Those were far-flug colonies clse to terminus systems. Military presence was next ot nill. Also, those were frigates.
If a Collector ship can take out a cruiser pack, then the writers messed up big time, since an un-upgraded Normandy (which hass LESS firepower than a cruiser) can take it out with several shots.

Look at this video.At 21:40 Admiral Hackett mentions the Alliance ships they sent to investigate the Collectors haven't reported back at all. I'd assume they are military ships. Those Turian ships were cruisers. They look very similar to the Turian cruisers in the ME1 fleet battle.

Also according to the codex.

Cruisers perform routine independent "show the flag" patrols in settled systems and lead flotillas of frigates in small engagements, such as pirate suppression campaigns.

Basically the codex even supports the assumption those were cruisers.

Nothing there is hard proof.

Hackett sez shisp were destroyed, but he doesn't say which ships, how many and how.

Looking similar is not hte same as being the same. Especially not with cutscene animatior cutting corners. We know DN's where with the 5th fleet, yet you wont' see a single one in cutscenes.

Alos, as I told SWM, just because Cruisers are a standard patrol unit, doen't mean it is the ONLY patrol unit, especially in far-flung systems.

An un upgraded Normandy has to actually use its speed (which is greater than any ship in Citadel Space) to actually get in close to kill it with about a dozen Javelin missiles which also carry multiple disruptor torpedoes.The Normandy SR2 was specifically built to survive against the Collector cruiser only barely.

Unapgraded Normandy shots it with it's mass drivers several times (6x2 shots IIRC) and kills it.
Upgraded Normandy shoots it with a thanix 2 times. Thanix is said to have the firepower of a crusier.
Power of a mass driver is tied to it's length. Cruiser mass driver length is far bigger than the entire length of the Normandy - ergo, it's guns are far mroe powerull then those on the Normandy.

Do the math. A few crusier shots should be enough to kill the Collector ship. If the Collector ship attacked a pack of cruisers, it shouldn't be alive.

[1136342t54_]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wut? How do you black out ships you have no connection to? With magic?

And a cruiser PACK is not something one can ambush easily.
Cruisers > frigates. More armor, bigger guns. And several of them. Given how long it took for the Collector to take out 1 frigate (Normandy Mk1), you really think it can take on 3 cruisers? Seriously?

Actually ME warships (at least some of them) do have wireless connections. Even EDI states so. It is the main reason why she believes her hacking abilities woul be so useful.

I know warship have wireless connections. But such connections can be made perfectly secure. There's a even an option for BLOCK all incoming traffic durign any comabt or in dangerous areas. No amount of hacking can go trough that.

Yet during combat EDI sees hacking as a perfectly viable way to disable a warship. All warships likely don't block off wireless signals.

[1136342t54_]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Those looked like transports.

To be honest at the end of ME3 we don't know what they actually were since we haven't seen those ships. Not saying they are military saying they are Cerberus owned vessels.

Nothing there is hard proof.

Hackett sez shisp were destroyed, but he doesn't say which ships, how many and how.

Looking similar is not hte same as being the same. Especially not with cutscene animatior cutting corners. We know DN's where with the 5th fleet, yet you wont' see a single one in cutscenes.

Alos, as I told SWM, just because Cruisers are a standard patrol unit, doen't mean it is the ONLY patrol unit, especially in far-flung systems.

Military vessels obviously and you send Cruisers or at least a frigate flotilla to check on colony attacks at the very least. Collector ship could have easily ambushed them. It wouldn't be impossible especially since Citadel ships have almost no defense against particle weaponry except for ablative armor.

Then your claim that they are frigates is even less likely than mine. Sure you can say I have no hard proof but you have even less. You just said they were frigates and left it at that. In the lore it says Cruisers are used for patrol duty and show your flag routine which would make sense since they are the workhorses of a fleet.

Unapgraded Normandy shots it with it's mass drivers several times (6x2 shots IIRC) and kills it.
Upgraded Normandy shoots it with a thanix 2 times. Thanix is said to have the firepower of a crusier.
Power of a mass driver is tied to it's length. Cruiser mass driver length is far bigger than the entire length of the Normandy - ergo, it's guns are far mroe powerull then those on the Normandy.

Do the math. A few crusier shots should be enough to kill the Collector ship. If the Collector ship attacked a pack of cruisers, it shouldn't be alive.

Those aren't mass accelerators. Those are disruptor torpedoes or more likely Javelin ones. Ship Mass Accelerators are spinal mounted. The Thanix cannon doesn't work like a Mass driver. It doesn't gain power through length.

Edit: Again you are making no sense. If The Thanix cannon gives a small vessel such as a fighter the firepower of a cruiser then it shouldn't be much more powerful than the Normandy unless it had a Thanix cannon also not just a normal mass driver.

Edit 2: Not all Mass accelerators are spinally mounted Dreadnoughts have broadside Mass acceelerators.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 15 décembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Unapgraded Normandy shots it with it's mass drivers several times (6x2 shots IIRC) and kills it.
Upgraded Normandy shoots it with a thanix 2 times. Thanix is said to have the firepower of a crusier.
Power of a mass driver is tied to it's length. Cruiser mass driver length is far bigger than the entire length of the Normandy - ergo, it's guns are far mroe powerull then those on the Normandy.

Do the math. A few crusier shots should be enough to kill the Collector ship. If the Collector ship attacked a pack of cruisers, it shouldn't be alive.

One 800-kg bomb dropped by a light Japanese bomber was enough to destroy the USS Arizona. That bomb was equivalent to a 16-in artillery shell fired by other battleships, therefore all battleship engagements should have ended after the first shot was fired. Do the math.

[Dean_the_Young]

They're right, Lotion Soronnar.

The Collector Cruiser wasn't impossible for a conventional force to overcome, but it wasn't simply a given. Tactics and context are decisive.

The Collector Cruiser might not last long in a stand-up fight, but it doesn't need to. It could just do hit-and-run, ambushes, and apply other tricks (like Collector-tech cyber-attacks) to get the jump on patrols of ships. After all, the Cruisers have to turn to face the Collector Cruiser in order to shoot at it, so the Collector Cruiser has at least that long to shoot and scoot as needed.

And we do know it did get the jump on Alliance patrols, from Arrival pre-Suicide Mission.



It's perfectly legitimate to say 'it wouldn't outlast a fleet', but naval warfare is more than full of cases showing how effective smaller ships can be despite that.

[Sgt Stryker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's perfectly legitimate to say 'it wouldn't outlast a fleet', but naval warfare is more than full of cases showing how effective smaller ships can be despite that.

I am of course, reminded of the Battle off Samar. Extraordinary things can and do happen in war.

[Someone With Mass]

1136342t54 wrote...

Yet during combat EDI sees hacking as a perfectly viable way to disable a warship. All warships likely don't block off wireless signals.

Yeah, multiple ships tends to communicate with each other for tactical awareness.

[Someone With Mass]

1136342t54 wrote...

Then your claim that they are frigates is even less likely than mine. Sure you can say I have no hard proof but you have even less. You just said they were frigates and left it at that. In the lore it says Cruisers are used for patrol duty and show your flag routine which would make sense since they are the workhorses of a fleet.

I'd say that a larger patrol also brings smaller chances of getting attacked, since I don't think the average pirate would want to go up against a group of cruisers, while smaller ships are more ideal for them, since those ships have less firepower and combat capabilities.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 16 décembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's perfectly legitimate to say 'it wouldn't outlast a fleet', but naval warfare is more than full of cases showing how effective smaller ships can be despite that.

I am of course, reminded of the Battle off Samar. Extraordinary things can and do happen in war.

That to, though we're hardly needing to go to a battle that unique.

Really, a better comparison than naval ships would be artillery duels between guns of different sizes. Mass Effect has more of a 'he who hits first, wins' attitude, which is closer to artillery than ships.