194 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

When it comes to big ships in Mass Effect, it really does come down to "Who hit who first" and "Who had bigger guns, or better shields". Because something like the Destiny Ascension and the Collector Cruiser are too big and slow to even dodge attacks. They need to be able to take more hits, or take out enemies before they get to them. Which is why the Normandy had an advantage over the Collector Ship, being a target that was both too small and too fast.

[Arkitekt]

Normandy won the Collector ship coz they had Joker piloting it.

Hackett's unknown ships were obviously piloted by n00bs.

This is sooo obvious IDK what people are fussing about.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1136342t54 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Unapgraded Normandy shots it with it's mass drivers several times (6x2 shots IIRC) and kills it.
Upgraded Normandy shoots it with a thanix 2 times. Thanix is said to have the firepower of a crusier.
Power of a mass driver is tied to it's length. Cruiser mass driver length is far bigger than the entire length of the Normandy - ergo, it's guns are far mroe powerull then those on the Normandy.

Do the math. A few crusier shots should be enough to kill the Collector ship. If the Collector ship attacked a pack of cruisers, it shouldn't be alive.

Those aren't mass accelerators. Those are disruptor torpedoes or more likely Javelin ones. Ship Mass Accelerators are spinal mounted. The Thanix cannon doesn't work like a Mass driver. It doesn't gain power through length.

Edit: Again you are making no sense. If The Thanix cannon gives a small vessel such as a fighter the firepower of a cruiser then it shouldn't be much more powerful than the Normandy unless it had a Thanix cannon also not just a normal mass driver.

Edit 2: Not all Mass accelerators are spinally mounted Dreadnoughts have broadside Mass acceelerators.

Those wren't torpedos. And I'm talking an un-upgraded normandy. It has GUNS.  You know - those things Garrus keeps calibrating? Those are mass drivers. Fireing chambers, barrels. It also looks like a bullet when fired, no as a missile.
Normandy can defeat the Collector ship with that.

Thanix is said to give Normandy the firepower of a cruiser.  Fighter version would be smaller and less poerufll.

So let's do the math. A standard alliance weapon (mass accelerator. if you think it's a Javelin, we can go with that), destroyes the collector cruiser in several shots.

Cruiser >> frigate in terms of firepower. This isn't debatable.

If an unapgraded normady can destroy the Collector ship i an few shots, then a cruser should be able to do the same (in fac,t it should be able to do it in less shots)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Unapgraded Normandy shots it with it's mass drivers several times (6x2 shots IIRC) and kills it.
Upgraded Normandy shoots it with a thanix 2 times. Thanix is said to have the firepower of a crusier.
Power of a mass driver is tied to it's length. Cruiser mass driver length is far bigger than the entire length of the Normandy - ergo, it's guns are far mroe powerull then those on the Normandy.

Do the math. A few crusier shots should be enough to kill the Collector ship. If the Collector ship attacked a pack of cruisers, it shouldn't be alive.

One 800-kg bomb dropped by a light Japanese bomber was enough to destroy the USS Arizona. That bomb was equivalent to a 16-in artillery shell fired by other battleships, therefore all battleship engagements should have ended after the first shot was fired. Do the math.

Can you say "critical hit". The Arizona was not battle ready. Magazines were not flooded (which is normal during battle). Also, the upper decks on older battelships were lightly armored. Also surprise. Also perfect conditions.


We go with what we have. We see X is sufficient to destroy ship X in battle conditions.
You cna go on assuming lucky shots, but unless proven that it IS a lucky shot, it's a baseline.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They're right, Lotion Soronnar.

The Collector Cruiser wasn't impossible for a conventional force to overcome, but it wasn't simply a given. Tactics and context are decisive.

The Collector Cruiser might not last long in a stand-up fight, but it doesn't need to. It could just do hit-and-run, ambushes, and apply other tricks (like Collector-tech cyber-attacks) to get the jump on patrols of ships. After all, the Cruisers have to turn to face the Collector Cruiser in order to shoot at it, so the Collector Cruiser has at least that long to shoot and scoot as needed.

Yes, but the Collectors ship is slow and ponderous. It will have more trouble dodging than cruisers.

And while a surprise attack against a singel cruiser might work,I fail to see how it coudl possibly take out several.

How many shots did it take to take out Normandy Mk1? A cruiser is far better armored.
While it shoots at cruiser 1, cruiser 2 and 3, turn and open fire.

So either the Collector cruiser ambushed lone ships, or something is very wrong here.

[Arkitekt]

Soronnar, Shepard used the Joker card.

Everyone knows that the Joker card trumps anything.

You are not just thinking this one straight .

[Sgt Stryker]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Unapgraded Normandy shots it with it's mass drivers several times (6x2 shots IIRC) and kills it.
Upgraded Normandy shoots it with a thanix 2 times. Thanix is said to have the firepower of a crusier.
Power of a mass driver is tied to it's length. Cruiser mass driver length is far bigger than the entire length of the Normandy - ergo, it's guns are far mroe powerull then those on the Normandy.

Do the math. A few crusier shots should be enough to kill the Collector ship. If the Collector ship attacked a pack of cruisers, it shouldn't be alive.

One 800-kg bomb dropped by a light Japanese bomber was enough to destroy the USS Arizona. That bomb was equivalent to a 16-in artillery shell fired by other battleships, therefore all battleship engagements should have ended after the first shot was fired. Do the math.

Can you say "critical hit". The Arizona was not battle ready. Magazines were not flooded (which is normal during battle). Also, the upper decks on older battelships were lightly armored. Also surprise. Also perfect conditions.

That's exactly my point. There needs to be a way to reconcile the apparent contradiction in the way the Collector cruiser's capabilities were portrayed, both during the battle and in the Arrival conversation with Hackett.

[1136342t54_]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Those aren't mass accelerators. Those are disruptor torpedoes or more likely Javelin ones. Ship Mass Accelerators are spinal mounted. The Thanix cannon doesn't work like a Mass driver. It doesn't gain power through length.

 Those are likely Disruptor Torpedoes since it fits the profile easily for the way the Normandy SR2 used them. The codex states that Disruptor torpedoes are used at point blank range. On the Normandy in the gunnery area where Garrus is calibrating weapons there is a codex entry talking about Javelin missiles that fires multiple Disruptor torpedoes.

Those wren't torpedos. And I'm talking an un-upgraded normandy. It has GUNS.  You know - those things Garrus keeps calibrating? Those are mass drivers. Fireing chambers, barrels. It also looks like a bullet when fired, no as a missile.
Normandy can defeat the Collector ship with that.

Mass accelerators fires slugs not bullets. They aren't really shaped and they are used for long range attacks not point blank range like Javelin missiles and Torpedoes are used at.

Thanix is said to give Normandy the firepower of a cruiser.  Fighter version would be smaller and less poerufll.

The codex says the Thanix cannon rivals the fire power of a cruiser but mountable on a fighter or frigate. It doesn't matter which vessel it gives both the same firepower.

So let's do the math. A standard alliance weapon (mass accelerator. if you think it's a Javelin, we can go with that), destroyes the collector cruiser in several shots.

Cruiser >> frigate in terms of firepower. This isn't debatable.

Javelin missiles fires multiple Disruptor torpedoes at a enemy vessel. Each torpedoe mimicks the effects of a singularity but on a much larger scale (basically a mini blackhole) and shreds the targets shields and armor easily. It is the main reason why a carrier is almost as useful as a Dreadnought.

If an unapgraded normady can destroy the Collector ship i an few shots, then a cruser should be able to do the same (in fac,t it should be able to do it in less shots)

An unupgraded Normandy only won due to speed, agility, knowing where the enemy is, combined piloting of Joker and a AI and being able to avoid Collector weaponry. Collectors use weapons that ignores Kinetic barriers and cut through Warship armor. A Collector warship can ambush a military vessel and take it down without much trouble. Also ambushing a vessel that is slower than the Normandy should be easier.

[1136342t54_]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

That's exactly my point. There needs to be a way to reconcile the apparent contradiction in the way the Collector cruiser's capabilities were portrayed, both during the battle and in the Arrival conversation with Hackett.

Your forgeting that the Collector ship likely doesn't take damage when it fights Alliance vessels due to ambushes. Remember the only time it went up against a ship is when it fought the fastest ship in Citadel Space that is piloted by the best Alliance pilot and a AI.

[Someone With Mass]

Actually, since the Thanix is powered by the element zero core, I'd imagine that it'd be less powerful on fighters, considering that the SSV Normandy's core alone could have given enough material to power thousands of fighters. And the SR2's core is even bigger.

Not to mention that the cannon itself on the SR2 is about as big as the cockpit fighter. I don't think a fighter would be that aerodynamic with something that large attached to it.

[1136342t54_]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Actually, since the Thanix is powered by the element zero core, I'd imagine that it'd be less powerful on fighters, considering that the SSV Normandy's core alone could have given enough material to power thousands of fighters. And the SR2's core is even bigger.

Not to mention that the cannon itself on the SR2 is about as big as the cockpit fighter. I don't think a fighter would be that aerodynamic with something that large attached to it.

The element zero core could easily act as a sort of ammo system? The Normandy SR2 has enough power to fire it multiple times while a figther would only be able to fire it once a day.

Also it is likely it is scaled down for a fighter but I doubt it can effect how aerodynamic a fighter is in space. It doesn't matter much in space.

[Sgt Stryker]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Actually, since the Thanix is powered by the element zero core, I'd imagine that it'd be less powerful on fighters, considering that the SSV Normandy's core alone could have given enough material to power thousands of fighters. And the SR2's core is even bigger.

Not to mention that the cannon itself on the SR2 is about as big as the cockpit fighter. I don't think a fighter would be that aerodynamic with something that large attached to it.

I don't mean to nitpick, but you may want to be careful with your wording there. Aerodynamics means nothing in space. I think you really want to say "thrust-to-mass ratio".

 1136342t54 wrote...

Your forgeting that the Collector ship likely doesn't take damage when it fights Alliance vessels due to ambushes. Remember the only time it went up against a ship is when it fought the fastest ship in Citadel Space that is piloted by the best Alliance pilot and a AI.

This is true, and I strongly suspect that the un-upgraded Normandy's point-blank range attack was indeed a case of a critical hit against a weakly-armored area of the Collector cruiser, which in turn set off secondary explosions in the ship's interior. Just like the one bomb hitting the Arizona's magazine.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:53 .

[Someone With Mass]

Sgt Stryker wrote...
I don't mean to nitpick, but you may want to be careful with your wording there. Aerodynamics means nothing in space. I think you really want to say "thrust-to-mass ratio".

I know, but a fighter is also expected to work in atmospheric conditions.

[Arkitekt]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...
I don't mean to nitpick, but you may want to be careful with your wording there. Aerodynamics means nothing in space. I think you really want to say "thrust-to-mass ratio".

I know, but a fighter is also expected to work in atmospheric conditions.

By exactly whom?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Can you say "critical hit". The Arizona was not battle ready. Magazines were not flooded (which is normal during battle). Also, the upper decks on older battelships were lightly armored. Also surprise. Also perfect conditions.

That's exactly my point. There needs to be a way to reconcile the apparent contradiction in the way the Collector cruiser's capabilities were portrayed, both during the battle and in the Arrival conversation with Hackett.

I forgot to add the Arizonad water-tight doors were all open.  Pants down, head in sand and a giant bullside on your ass scenario. The CC certanly didn't suffer from that.

And there's more ways you can reconcile the contradiction:

1. Bioware messed up the story. (big surprise. ME2 is full of this)
2. Collectors attacked individual, light warships
3. Critical hit out of nowhere  (which is made impossible by barriers. In other words, to score a critical hit, you first have to strip barriers. Meaning an unapgraded Normandy  stripped the CC of it's shield.)

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]Those wren't torpedos. And I'm talking an un-upgraded normandy. It has GUNS.  You know - those things Garrus keeps calibrating? Those are mass drivers. Fireing chambers, barrels. It also looks like a bullet when fired, no as a missile.
Normandy can defeat the Collector ship with that.
[/quote]
Mass accelerators fires slugs not bullets. They aren't really shaped and they are used for long range attacks not point blank range like Javelin missiles and Torpedoes are used at.[/quote]

mass accelerators on DN's are used for long-range.
mass accelerators in frigates are used at shorter ranges.
Codex entry confirms this.


[quote]
The codex says the Thanix cannon rivals the fire power of a cruiser but mountable on a fighter or frigate. It doesn't matter which vessel it gives both the same firepower.[/quote]

Highly unlikely. Those guns have to be powered from somewhere. frigate has a far biggr ME core than a fighter. They can't have the same power output. Thanix works similar to a regular mass accelerator - and ma's are limited by available power and gun length.
Use your head.




[quote]
Javelin missiles fires multiple Disruptor torpedoes at a enemy vessel. Each torpedoe mimicks the effects of a singularity but on a much larger scale (basically a mini blackhole) and shreds the targets shields and armor easily. It is the main reason why a carrier is almost as useful as a Dreadnought.[/quote]

Cruiser firepwer >>> frigate firepwoer.
If it wasn't like that, no one would build cruisers. Frigates cost less, are faster and more nimbler...if they were more pwoerfull, then the existence of cruisers is redicolous.

The carrier launches a whole swarm of fighters, so that's a LOT of torpedos.




[quote][quote]
If an unapgraded normady can destroy the Collector ship i an few shots, then a cruser should be able to do the same (in fac,t it should be able to do it in less shots)
[/quote]
An unupgraded Normandy only won due to speed, agility, knowing where the enemy is, combined piloting of Joker and a AI and being able to avoid Collector weaponry. Collectors use weapons that ignores Kinetic barriers and cut through Warship armor. A Collector warship can ambush a military vessel and take it down without much trouble. Also ambushing a vessel that is slower than the Normandy should be easier.
[/quote]

Nope. Several shots. That's all it took.

Crusiers also have longer-ranged weapons, more armor and more firepower.

The Collector ship should be able to taek out a patrol unit from what is showin in-game. It would be hard pressed even with a frigate ptrol. Let alone a cruiser patrol.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1136342t54 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Actually, since the Thanix is powered by the element zero core, I'd imagine that it'd be less powerful on fighters, considering that the SSV Normandy's core alone could have given enough material to power thousands of fighters. And the SR2's core is even bigger.

Not to mention that the cannon itself on the SR2 is about as big as the cockpit fighter. I don't think a fighter would be that aerodynamic with something that large attached to it.

The element zero core could easily act as a sort of ammo system? The Normandy SR2 has enough power to fire it multiple times while a figther would only be able to fire it once a day.

I never thouhg I'd agree iwht SWM, but....

Ezo core act as ammo?

That's not how accelerators work. And Thanix is an accelearator. An huge amount of power is required to create the EM pulse necessary to fire the weapon.

[Someone With Mass]

Arkitekt wrote...

By exactly whom?

By the same people that are launching them during the Reaper attack on Earth.

That way, you don't have to create a separate line of fighters just to be efficient in the atmosphere.

Space isn't the only battlefield, you know.

[TMA LIVE]

1136342t54 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Cerberus army actually comes from a pretty good basis, though spoilers are involved.

How spoilerific is it?

Spoilery.

Does it inadvertently spoil a good part of the game?

Advertently spoil a good part of the game.

Well I'll hope the comic explains it. If not I can wait.

Well, it might not judging by the end of issue 3.

[Wulfram]

Someone With Mass wrote...

By the same people that are launching them during the Reaper attack on Earth.

That way, you don't have to create a separate line of fighters just to be efficient in the atmosphere.

Space isn't the only battlefield, you know.

I'd rather have specialised Air and Space fighters than a dual role craft that's inferior in both environments.