Oh great. Essentially they could become disorganized warlords. I may have to kill a few Spectres to get this job done.
Shepard's mindset in ME3
Débuté par
knightnblu
, déc. 08 2011 03:26
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#52
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 01:11
Ryzaki
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'Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Agreed. I hate the "Shepard must cry to be human" sentiment. It's fine for people who want it, I just hope it isn't forced on me (and thus despise ME3's intro-kid). My Shepard's mindset for ME3 is to make them work for it. That's it. No room for tears, it's not for the faint of heart.
Aye. I don't mind those that want their Shep more emotional, mine however? Nope. He can break down once the Reapers are gone. Not before.
#53
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 01:14
Grand Admiral Cheesecake
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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Oh great. Essentially they could become disorganized warlords. I may have to kill a few Spectres to get this job done.
Well the rule of three could very well be in effect....
Killed a Spectre in ME1, Killed a Spectre in ME2...
#54
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 04:57
Iakus
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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Oh great. Essentially they could become disorganized warlords. I may have to kill a few Spectres to get this job done.
Well the rule of three could very well be in effect....
Killed a Spectre in ME1, Killed a Spectre in ME2...
Anyone lays a finger on my Ash gets a sniper rifle somewhere very uncomfortable
knightblu wrote...
Actually, Shepard is a Commander in the Alliance and while not a flag officer he
is never the less a command level officer. As far as I am aware the Alliance
fleet is in pieces over Earth. What few ships are left are likely scattered and
in no position to counter. Further, it would appear that attacks are occurring
on multiple worlds and involve multiple governments judging by the husks
encountered on Earth when the Reapers arrived. This would mean that the
militaries of the Council species are hard pressed, if not in the same condition
as the Alliance fleet. It is likely that unaligned species and the Quarians
possess the only remaining forces in sufficient quantity to pack a decent
punch.
With the military situation being what it is and the Council
governments in disarray, that essentially leaves Shepard as a de facto
Admiral/General/diplomat. Whether BioWare will agree remains to be seen. As far
as fighting a guerilla war, if the galaxy relies on that we are doomed. Hit and
run tactics will not insure survival. They may however, buy some time to put
together a force that can effectively deliver a counter blow to the
Reapers.
If the Arrival DLC had a meaning, it was that we are going to
have to operate on both the tactical and strategic level as we did with the
assault on the Collector base. Choosing both objectives, team members, and
targets in order to carry out our mission objectives. At least that is the way
that I see it and I honestly have no idea what BioWare has cooked up for ME3.
But it would seem to have been leading up to this scenario.
I dont think humanity is in quite that desperate a straight yet. The homeworld has fallen and Arcturus station is likely gone. But Hackett is commander of Fifth Fleet. This suggests there are at least four others. Of course, twenty fleets wouldn't be enough to stop the Reapers. Strength of arms alone will not save the galaxy. It'll only delay the inevitable.
That's where Shepard comes in. He's the expert on Reapers. He's got the contacts with various organizations across the galaxy. It's up to him to find a way to "break the machines" and find a way to put the galaxy's limited resources to best use. In the meantime. the galaxy must be protected as well as possible. Defensively, hoarding strength and resources for when it can be put to best use.
#55
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 03:53
knightnblu
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iakus wrote "I dont think humanity is in quite that desperate a straight yet. The homeworld has fallen and Arcturus station is likely gone. But Hackett is commander of Fifth Fleet. This suggests there are at least four others. Of course, twenty fleets wouldn't be enough to stop the Reapers. Strength of arms alone will not save the galaxy. It'll only delay the inevitable.
That's where Shepard comes in. He's the expert on Reapers. He's got the contacts with various organizations across the galaxy. It's up to him to find a way to "break the machines" and find a way to put the galaxy's limited resources to best use. In the meantime. the galaxy must be protected as well as possible. Defensively, hoarding strength and resources for when it can be put to best use."
I beg to differ. Did you see the game trailer featuring the arrival of the Reapers? Did you see the Big Ben sniper trailer? Did you see the Batarian husks on Earth? Did you see what just one of those things managed to do to the Citadel? Earth is being taken apart piece by piece by a large Reaper fleet. That is the home of humanity. Sure, there are colonies, but the bulk of humanity is still on Earth. If Hackett is still alive and there are still a few ships left, he is likely trying to organize some sort of defense for the colonies that have not been hit yet because there is no way that he can counterattack the Reapers.
That means that humanity is in the unenviable position of relying upon others for defense. Others that are likely under simultaneous attack facing the same enemy. This means that the Reapers have already had their opening attacks and they were pretty good ones to boot. It is also likely that the Batarians are destroyed because of their proximity to the invasion point of the Milky Way.
While the galaxy has been rocked back on its heels, it has not yet fallen. This means that there is a window of opportunity open for a counter and that is where the galaxy's sole chance of survival resides, but that window will be slamming shut soon denying us the opportunity to seize the initiative. No war has ever been won by purely defensive means. Just as the Maginot line had fallen, so to will all other defenses if not coupled with an effective offense and this is why the window of opportunity is steadily closing.
The Reapers are not invulnerable as attested to by the Prothean VI on Ilos. The reason that the other races fell in the cyclical purges was because 1. they were surprised and caught off guard, 2. their offensive capability was destroyed before they could organize an effective defense, 3. Indoctrination allowed the Reapers to blind side them and counter any strategy they came up with, 4. primary targets included the Citadel, home worlds, manufacturing, and military resources. As such, they were rolled up quickly and the Reapers only had to mop up refugees.
While our home worlds are burning, our military forces are heavily damaged, and our situational awareness is limited, but we still have the advantages of 1. not being surprised because we knew this was coming and some commanders (Hackett possibly being one) likely cached some forces out of harm's way, 2. Indoctrination is not so widespread as to be a deal breaker for a counter offensive, 3. We have Rana Thanoptis who is our best expert on indoctrination and can advise on detection and prevention, 4. We have already lost our most important assets, our home worlds, in the initial attacks. While this is a major loss it also gives us strategic and tactical flexibility in our operations and allows us to pick and choose our battles avoiding losses from rolling engagements with the Reapers before we are ready thereby preserving our offensive capabilities. Not my first choice, but I'll take what I can get.
On the off chance that there are still some home worlds that are still intact, the choice transitions to saving or sacrificing them. If we sacrifice we preserve our offensive capacity, but alienate a potential ally. If we defend, we sacrifice a portion of our offensive capacity, but gain an ally. We just need to insure that the ally we acquire will actually be of some use in the fight, else it would be best to let them go. Ditto scientific resources. Military resources on the other hand have high priority. Shipyards, bases, equipment, troops, all of it.
As I have stated before, I have no idea if BioWare agrees with any of this, but I really don't see how it could be any different unless the Reapers haven't penetrated as far as the trailers have led us to believe. It has been my experience that the veneer of civilization is a thin one and easily displaced by war. How much more so due to the end of everything?
With the Alliance fleet all, but destroyed, Earth under siege by the Reapers, and the other races facing a simultaneous assault, the picture is bleak. However, if the bulk of the Reaper fleet is invested in Earth, that is great news for the galaxy while being a major bummer for us. If such is the case, then it is likely that the Earth is already lost and we must focus on insuring the survival of the other species, but that still doesn't change the mindset of the predator (Shepard) nor does it change our priorities.
That's where Shepard comes in. He's the expert on Reapers. He's got the contacts with various organizations across the galaxy. It's up to him to find a way to "break the machines" and find a way to put the galaxy's limited resources to best use. In the meantime. the galaxy must be protected as well as possible. Defensively, hoarding strength and resources for when it can be put to best use."
I beg to differ. Did you see the game trailer featuring the arrival of the Reapers? Did you see the Big Ben sniper trailer? Did you see the Batarian husks on Earth? Did you see what just one of those things managed to do to the Citadel? Earth is being taken apart piece by piece by a large Reaper fleet. That is the home of humanity. Sure, there are colonies, but the bulk of humanity is still on Earth. If Hackett is still alive and there are still a few ships left, he is likely trying to organize some sort of defense for the colonies that have not been hit yet because there is no way that he can counterattack the Reapers.
That means that humanity is in the unenviable position of relying upon others for defense. Others that are likely under simultaneous attack facing the same enemy. This means that the Reapers have already had their opening attacks and they were pretty good ones to boot. It is also likely that the Batarians are destroyed because of their proximity to the invasion point of the Milky Way.
While the galaxy has been rocked back on its heels, it has not yet fallen. This means that there is a window of opportunity open for a counter and that is where the galaxy's sole chance of survival resides, but that window will be slamming shut soon denying us the opportunity to seize the initiative. No war has ever been won by purely defensive means. Just as the Maginot line had fallen, so to will all other defenses if not coupled with an effective offense and this is why the window of opportunity is steadily closing.
The Reapers are not invulnerable as attested to by the Prothean VI on Ilos. The reason that the other races fell in the cyclical purges was because 1. they were surprised and caught off guard, 2. their offensive capability was destroyed before they could organize an effective defense, 3. Indoctrination allowed the Reapers to blind side them and counter any strategy they came up with, 4. primary targets included the Citadel, home worlds, manufacturing, and military resources. As such, they were rolled up quickly and the Reapers only had to mop up refugees.
While our home worlds are burning, our military forces are heavily damaged, and our situational awareness is limited, but we still have the advantages of 1. not being surprised because we knew this was coming and some commanders (Hackett possibly being one) likely cached some forces out of harm's way, 2. Indoctrination is not so widespread as to be a deal breaker for a counter offensive, 3. We have Rana Thanoptis who is our best expert on indoctrination and can advise on detection and prevention, 4. We have already lost our most important assets, our home worlds, in the initial attacks. While this is a major loss it also gives us strategic and tactical flexibility in our operations and allows us to pick and choose our battles avoiding losses from rolling engagements with the Reapers before we are ready thereby preserving our offensive capabilities. Not my first choice, but I'll take what I can get.
On the off chance that there are still some home worlds that are still intact, the choice transitions to saving or sacrificing them. If we sacrifice we preserve our offensive capacity, but alienate a potential ally. If we defend, we sacrifice a portion of our offensive capacity, but gain an ally. We just need to insure that the ally we acquire will actually be of some use in the fight, else it would be best to let them go. Ditto scientific resources. Military resources on the other hand have high priority. Shipyards, bases, equipment, troops, all of it.
As I have stated before, I have no idea if BioWare agrees with any of this, but I really don't see how it could be any different unless the Reapers haven't penetrated as far as the trailers have led us to believe. It has been my experience that the veneer of civilization is a thin one and easily displaced by war. How much more so due to the end of everything?
With the Alliance fleet all, but destroyed, Earth under siege by the Reapers, and the other races facing a simultaneous assault, the picture is bleak. However, if the bulk of the Reaper fleet is invested in Earth, that is great news for the galaxy while being a major bummer for us. If such is the case, then it is likely that the Earth is already lost and we must focus on insuring the survival of the other species, but that still doesn't change the mindset of the predator (Shepard) nor does it change our priorities.
#56
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 09:05
sH0tgUn jUliA
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IIRC, when the Reapers attacked the last time, they came through the Citadel relay, and they were able to find out where all the inhabited worlds, and the seats of governments, etc., were located from the data bank on the Citadel, which we have yet to discover. They have not done this.
They may not know the locations of all the seats of government. We don't know. The assault on the Turian homeworld may be later in the game than Earth.
I liked Rana Thanoptis in a mad scientist sort of way.
They may not know the locations of all the seats of government. We don't know. The assault on the Turian homeworld may be later in the game than Earth.
I liked Rana Thanoptis in a mad scientist sort of way.
#57
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 12:20
Iakus
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@knightnblu
I did indeed see the trailer: I didn't say Earth wasn't in serious trouble. I said humanity wasn't out of the fight yet. It's entirely possible that Earth's military is still for the most part intact . Humanity has teh sescond largest military among the Council races, just behind the turians. They may have lost a fleet. But there are at least four more out there. Maybe more. And I agree, it will take more than what humanity alone has to stop the reapers. Heck, it may take more than what a dozen different races can scrape together to beat them.
That's why I say stay on the defensive. Focus on denying the Reapers their husks and smoothies. Hit them when possible, but don't waste strength on head-on fights that can't be won.
Shepard is going to need to find a weakness in the Reapers. Whether that be the "good/evil" switch on them, the two meter diameter exhaust ports, or the Ancient base buried in the Antarctic.
Until then, the focus needs to be "stay alive" Balance must be struck. Crying about the situation will accomplish nothing. But leaping into the fray will destroy everyone. Shep gets one shot to save the galaxy. He needs to make it count, and make sure there's still a galaxy to save. In the end, it may be impossible to save everyone. It's been made too clear that militarilly, we are hopelessly outclassed by the Reapers. I suspect that this will be less about fleets and armies and more about "getting the Ring to Mordor" The enemy is too powerful to defeat with what we have. The key will be to protect and preserve as much as possible until Shepard works his mojo.
I did indeed see the trailer: I didn't say Earth wasn't in serious trouble. I said humanity wasn't out of the fight yet. It's entirely possible that Earth's military is still for the most part intact . Humanity has teh sescond largest military among the Council races, just behind the turians. They may have lost a fleet. But there are at least four more out there. Maybe more. And I agree, it will take more than what humanity alone has to stop the reapers. Heck, it may take more than what a dozen different races can scrape together to beat them.
That's why I say stay on the defensive. Focus on denying the Reapers their husks and smoothies. Hit them when possible, but don't waste strength on head-on fights that can't be won.
Shepard is going to need to find a weakness in the Reapers. Whether that be the "good/evil" switch on them, the two meter diameter exhaust ports, or the Ancient base buried in the Antarctic.
Until then, the focus needs to be "stay alive" Balance must be struck. Crying about the situation will accomplish nothing. But leaping into the fray will destroy everyone. Shep gets one shot to save the galaxy. He needs to make it count, and make sure there's still a galaxy to save. In the end, it may be impossible to save everyone. It's been made too clear that militarilly, we are hopelessly outclassed by the Reapers. I suspect that this will be less about fleets and armies and more about "getting the Ring to Mordor" The enemy is too powerful to defeat with what we have. The key will be to protect and preserve as much as possible until Shepard works his mojo.
#58
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 03:12
knightnblu
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God I hope ME3 won't be about Shepard taking the ring to Mordor. That would be such a lousy way for the story to conclude. ME1 and ME2 were about the tenacity, creativity, and skill of Shepard/humans. I felt that Shepard succeeded because he dared to challenge the status quo. Using a deus ex machina or performing a "one ring" solution to conclude the story is a cheat, in my opinion.
If these types of mechanisms are used, it means that humanity wasn't good enough to pull it off on their own. It cheapens Shepard, the Alliance, and the Council races immeasurably. The Protheans stopped the first Reaper invasion and gave the galaxy a chance to stop further attempts. Shepard stopped Sovereign form seizing the Citadel and opening the mass relay to let his buddies in. Shepard stopped the Reapers a third time when he blew the relay in Arrival. All of that was accomplished by flesh and blood mortals who said "no" to the Reapers.
If a combat soldier has the will to continue the fight with 80% of his body destroyed (actually happened in World War II), then humanity has enough willpower to defeat the Reapers. It is that tenacity that I was speaking of in my OP and I will bet you that when push comes to shove the rest of the races have that in them as well. They just have to be led.
It isn't that the Reapers are so advanced that they cannot be beaten. Shepard and the Protheans have already proven that they can be beaten and they have Sovereign's corpse to back that up. If the races of the galaxy unite and stand together, we can face them and we can beat them. If the remnants of the surviving fleets, Quarians, unaligned races, and the Geth all unite they can field a force that could challenge the Reapers and what's more, we won't need a "one ring" strategy to do it (which in my mind is like relying on luck to save your hide and I absolutely despise that strategy). I personally don't care for an "on/off" or "good/evil" switch either. Once a switch has been flipped, what's to say that it won't be switched back? I prefer to send them to perdition as the only method that offers any degree of certainty.
As far as the Alliance fleet surviving, I'm not so sure. If my read on the situation is correct, then the Alliance will be lucky to have any forces left. When an enemy comes to your home and threatens the vast majority of your species, you pull out all of the stops to defend. I don't know for certain, but I am fairly sure that the majority of the Alliance fleet has been turned into scrap metal. There might be a heavy cruiser or a carrier or a handful of frigates, but that's about it unless some were cached away by Hackett before all hell broke loose.
If these types of mechanisms are used, it means that humanity wasn't good enough to pull it off on their own. It cheapens Shepard, the Alliance, and the Council races immeasurably. The Protheans stopped the first Reaper invasion and gave the galaxy a chance to stop further attempts. Shepard stopped Sovereign form seizing the Citadel and opening the mass relay to let his buddies in. Shepard stopped the Reapers a third time when he blew the relay in Arrival. All of that was accomplished by flesh and blood mortals who said "no" to the Reapers.
If a combat soldier has the will to continue the fight with 80% of his body destroyed (actually happened in World War II), then humanity has enough willpower to defeat the Reapers. It is that tenacity that I was speaking of in my OP and I will bet you that when push comes to shove the rest of the races have that in them as well. They just have to be led.
It isn't that the Reapers are so advanced that they cannot be beaten. Shepard and the Protheans have already proven that they can be beaten and they have Sovereign's corpse to back that up. If the races of the galaxy unite and stand together, we can face them and we can beat them. If the remnants of the surviving fleets, Quarians, unaligned races, and the Geth all unite they can field a force that could challenge the Reapers and what's more, we won't need a "one ring" strategy to do it (which in my mind is like relying on luck to save your hide and I absolutely despise that strategy). I personally don't care for an "on/off" or "good/evil" switch either. Once a switch has been flipped, what's to say that it won't be switched back? I prefer to send them to perdition as the only method that offers any degree of certainty.
As far as the Alliance fleet surviving, I'm not so sure. If my read on the situation is correct, then the Alliance will be lucky to have any forces left. When an enemy comes to your home and threatens the vast majority of your species, you pull out all of the stops to defend. I don't know for certain, but I am fairly sure that the majority of the Alliance fleet has been turned into scrap metal. There might be a heavy cruiser or a carrier or a handful of frigates, but that's about it unless some were cached away by Hackett before all hell broke loose.
#59
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 05:21
Iakus
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knightnblu wrote...
God I hope ME3 won't be about Shepard taking the ring to Mordor. That would be such a lousy way for the story to conclude. ME1 and ME2 were about the tenacity, creativity, and skill of Shepard/humans. I felt that Shepard succeeded because he dared to challenge the status quo. Using a deus ex machina or performing a "one ring" solution to conclude the story is a cheat, in my opinion.
If these types of mechanisms are used, it means that humanity wasn't good enough to pull it off on their own. It cheapens Shepard, the Alliance, and the Council races immeasurably. The Protheans stopped the first Reaper invasion and gave the galaxy a chance to stop further attempts. Shepard stopped Sovereign form seizing the Citadel and opening the mass relay to let his buddies in. Shepard stopped the Reapers a third time when he blew the relay in Arrival. All of that was accomplished by flesh and blood mortals who said "no" to the Reapers.
If a combat soldier has the will to continue the fight with 80% of his body destroyed (actually happened in World War II), then humanity has enough willpower to defeat the Reapers. It is that tenacity that I was speaking of in my OP and I will bet you that when push comes to shove the rest of the races have that in them as well. They just have to be led.
It isn't that the Reapers are so advanced that they cannot be beaten. Shepard and the Protheans have already proven that they can be beaten and they have Sovereign's corpse to back that up. If the races of the galaxy unite and stand together, we can face them and we can beat them. If the remnants of the surviving fleets, Quarians, unaligned races, and the Geth all unite they can field a force that could challenge the Reapers and what's more, we won't need a "one ring" strategy to do it (which in my mind is like relying on luck to save your hide and I absolutely despise that strategy). I personally don't care for an "on/off" or "good/evil" switch either. Once a switch has been flipped, what's to say that it won't be switched back? I prefer to send them to perdition as the only method that offers any degree of certainty.
As far as the Alliance fleet surviving, I'm not so sure. If my read on the situation is correct, then the Alliance will be lucky to have any forces left. When an enemy comes to your home and threatens the vast majority of your species, you pull out all of the stops to defend. I don't know for certain, but I am fairly sure that the majority of the Alliance fleet has been turned into scrap metal. There might be a heavy cruiser or a carrier or a handful of frigates, but that's about it unless some were cached away by Hackett before all hell broke loose.
Good or bad, I see little alternative for the story. Shepard's warnings went unheeded by all but a few groups in the galaxy. Preparation was negligible, despite the time bought by ME1 asnd Arrival. There is no united front waiting for the Reapers' arrival. A single Reaper is more than a match for a fleet of anyone else's ships.
This is why Shepard can't use a "predator's heart" when it comes to the Reapers. It would be like a pack of housecats hunting a pack of wolves. They're simply outclassed by their enemies. Get enough cats together, they might manage to kill a few wolves, but the price would be horrific and the efforts will likely be insufficient to kill enough wolves.
Standard tactics are not going to work on the Reapers. Courage is all fine and good. But it will only take you so far. Any victory in a fleet action against the Reapers would be Pyrric to say the least. Both the Citadel Fleet and Fifth Fleet can attest to that. The only reason the galaxy has a chance now is because a group of Protheans managed to hide from the Reapers during the last culling. They hid, rather than stand against an enemy they could not beat. he only way I see the Reapers being defeated is through some sort of trickery, an unforseen weakness, or some othe rform of indirect attack. That's how Shepard should think.
#60
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 02:55
knightnblu
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iakus - So in other words you are arguing for luck? The clock is ticking and time only works to our adversary's advantage. Additionally, the Thanix cannon worked pretty well against the Collector cruiser and I bet fleets outfitted with that weapon would do a pretty good job against Reapers. It really boils down to this: getting past their kinetic barriers. If you can do that, you can destroy them. In ME1, a frigate took out a Reaper using ordinary weaponry.
Don't count out the combined research and development of the galactic races. If the Salarians could find a way to stop the Krogans, I believe it is likely that they can find a way to get past those barriers. They just need the time to do it. Consider our resources:
Council Spectres, Asari commandos, Salarian STG, Turian military, Quarian fleet, Geth troops and ships, Rachni fleet and troops (if saved), as well as military forces from the traverse and unaligned races like the Batarians if any still exist. That is one hell of a force if it can be combined and is willing to work together. Combine that with a predator's mindset and you have a killing machine, so to speak.
Toss in the remnants of the Alliance and you have the brains for that killing machine. The Asari are badass, but it is humanity that is the virtuoso of war. Man has applied his creative energies to killing his fellow man for thousands of years and that has made us very good at the art of war and organized combat. While the Asari have experience culled from hundreds of years of practice, humanity has an ability to think on the fly and to adapt to rapidly changing combat situations. If Hackett is still alive (and I think I recall some news that he was a definite for ME3, but I am not certain), it is he that needs to direct the fleets.
We can most certainly win this fight on our own. Priorities are as follows: find a way past the Reaper's barriers, find a way to detect indoctrination and reverse it if possible, cobble together a force capable of fighting the Reapers. Everything else is just warfare. No "one ring" quests, no deus ex machina, no fuss. Just blood, sweat, and tears.
I'm not saying that we are going to do this without taking one hell of a beating. But if we play our cards right, we'll be the ones standing when the smoke clears and we will have done it on our own.
Don't count out the combined research and development of the galactic races. If the Salarians could find a way to stop the Krogans, I believe it is likely that they can find a way to get past those barriers. They just need the time to do it. Consider our resources:
Council Spectres, Asari commandos, Salarian STG, Turian military, Quarian fleet, Geth troops and ships, Rachni fleet and troops (if saved), as well as military forces from the traverse and unaligned races like the Batarians if any still exist. That is one hell of a force if it can be combined and is willing to work together. Combine that with a predator's mindset and you have a killing machine, so to speak.
Toss in the remnants of the Alliance and you have the brains for that killing machine. The Asari are badass, but it is humanity that is the virtuoso of war. Man has applied his creative energies to killing his fellow man for thousands of years and that has made us very good at the art of war and organized combat. While the Asari have experience culled from hundreds of years of practice, humanity has an ability to think on the fly and to adapt to rapidly changing combat situations. If Hackett is still alive (and I think I recall some news that he was a definite for ME3, but I am not certain), it is he that needs to direct the fleets.
We can most certainly win this fight on our own. Priorities are as follows: find a way past the Reaper's barriers, find a way to detect indoctrination and reverse it if possible, cobble together a force capable of fighting the Reapers. Everything else is just warfare. No "one ring" quests, no deus ex machina, no fuss. Just blood, sweat, and tears.
I'm not saying that we are going to do this without taking one hell of a beating. But if we play our cards right, we'll be the ones standing when the smoke clears and we will have done it on our own.
#61
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 07:35
Iakus
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I'm not arguing for luck, I'm arguing for thinking outside the box. The thanix may help, but at the Battle of the Citadel, Sovereign's barriers were able to shrug off the combined fire of the Fifth Fleet. Plus whatever was left of the Citadel Fleet. The Normandy may have gotten the killshot, but it was not the only one pouring fire into Sovereign when the barriers went down. In the meantime, Sovereign was destroying cruisers with a single shot. They might have brought Sovereign down eventually, but at horrific cost.
If the Council and other races had banded together after the Battle of the Citadel, as the end of ME1 suggested, I'd think that maybe they could have come up with a trick or two that leveled the playing field against the Reapers. But with the exception of the geth, Cerberus, and maybe the quarians (and the rachni, if you saved the queen), the galaxy's forces are going in totally unprepared for what they're about to face. Whole fleets will be mauled or destroyed facing one Reaper. Imagine if the Reapers use wolf pack tactics? What Sheo could assemble would be a fine force if the Terminus united and invaded Council space. Or if another Rachni War broke out. Or the geth attacked again. But the Reapers is an entirely new order of problem.
This isn't going to be another Skyllian Blitz. Or even Torfan. This is Akuze on a galactic scale. This is a galaxy-wide Armageddon. All these fleets and troops will be meat for the grinder.
I agree that flexibility and adaptability will save the day. It was Shepard';s determination and ability to adapt that allowed him to get this far, when no one else would take his claims seriously. Now that flexible mind is going to have to be put to creating a new playbook to deal with the Reapers. In a way that wont leave the galaxy in ashes afterwards.
So far the only way to bring down a Reaper's barrier is to kill an "avatar" while the Reaper is controlling it. This seemed to stun Sovereign. Reapers are probably smart enough not to allow themselves to be put in that position unless absolutely necessary. Look at Harbinger, who seemed to use the Collector General as a "buffer" while possessing a Collector.
The only known person to completely recover from indoctrination is Shiala, thanks to her exposure to the thorian. But the thorian is dead. And thanks to Genesis, it's uncertain if Feros will be mentioned at all in ME3.
An force will be needed to face the Reapers. but I highly doubt it will be to destroy them, but to slow them and confound them until a permanent solution is found. Tehy need to slow the destruction of galactic civilization as much as possible. To "hold the line" as it were, until Shep goes to Za'ha'dum, or uploads the virus, or unleashes the "beings of light" Or whatever solution.to the Reapers can be found. The STG, asari commandos, N7 marines, Spectres, merc groups, and so on may be able to help in this regard in investigating and infiltrating likely locations for clues.
If Shep, the Alliance, or even the whole galaxy tries to fight the Reapers simply as a coalition of forces, they'll lose. They'll fight gloriously, and die gloriously.
If the Council and other races had banded together after the Battle of the Citadel, as the end of ME1 suggested, I'd think that maybe they could have come up with a trick or two that leveled the playing field against the Reapers. But with the exception of the geth, Cerberus, and maybe the quarians (and the rachni, if you saved the queen), the galaxy's forces are going in totally unprepared for what they're about to face. Whole fleets will be mauled or destroyed facing one Reaper. Imagine if the Reapers use wolf pack tactics? What Sheo could assemble would be a fine force if the Terminus united and invaded Council space. Or if another Rachni War broke out. Or the geth attacked again. But the Reapers is an entirely new order of problem.
This isn't going to be another Skyllian Blitz. Or even Torfan. This is Akuze on a galactic scale. This is a galaxy-wide Armageddon. All these fleets and troops will be meat for the grinder.
I agree that flexibility and adaptability will save the day. It was Shepard';s determination and ability to adapt that allowed him to get this far, when no one else would take his claims seriously. Now that flexible mind is going to have to be put to creating a new playbook to deal with the Reapers. In a way that wont leave the galaxy in ashes afterwards.
So far the only way to bring down a Reaper's barrier is to kill an "avatar" while the Reaper is controlling it. This seemed to stun Sovereign. Reapers are probably smart enough not to allow themselves to be put in that position unless absolutely necessary. Look at Harbinger, who seemed to use the Collector General as a "buffer" while possessing a Collector.
The only known person to completely recover from indoctrination is Shiala, thanks to her exposure to the thorian. But the thorian is dead. And thanks to Genesis, it's uncertain if Feros will be mentioned at all in ME3.
An force will be needed to face the Reapers. but I highly doubt it will be to destroy them, but to slow them and confound them until a permanent solution is found. Tehy need to slow the destruction of galactic civilization as much as possible. To "hold the line" as it were, until Shep goes to Za'ha'dum, or uploads the virus, or unleashes the "beings of light" Or whatever solution.to the Reapers can be found. The STG, asari commandos, N7 marines, Spectres, merc groups, and so on may be able to help in this regard in investigating and infiltrating likely locations for clues.
If Shep, the Alliance, or even the whole galaxy tries to fight the Reapers simply as a coalition of forces, they'll lose. They'll fight gloriously, and die gloriously.
#62
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 08:02
JamieCOTC
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Shepard's mindset should be in the hands of the player. Whether that is killing everything in sight or trying to save as many as possible. Further more, I think a lot of people are missing the point of ME3. It's not about winning the war, because the Reapers can't win. It's about what state of the galaxy is in at the end of the war.
#63
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 09:27
Iakus
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I think what' we're debating is the merits of given mindsets, rather than what must or must not be 
#64
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 01:00
knightnblu
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I wholeheartedly agree that the Reapers are formidable, but that does not mean that they are invincible without a hail Mary factor. In the past extermination cycles the Reapers surprised their victims, got them on the defensive and kept them there while their fifth column did its dirty work right along with fear and panic. The victim's mindset can best be described by the Prothean declaration that the Reapers "can not be stopped" in that recording on Ilos. Once you have arrived at that conclusion you lay down in the middle of the street and let the passing cars run over yourself.
I advocate a different position: we can and will win this fight. That frame of mind alone changes the game by opening a window to victory. We will not lay down and die. We will fight and make the bastards work for every millimeter of ground they take. While we will be forced to fight defensively until we can organize an effective resistance, we are still light years ahead of where our predecessors were 50K years ago. The Reapers are off of their game precisely because their invasion has been interrupted once by a previous victim's actions and twice by Shepard. Also, the fact that one Reaper has been destroyed by him and one defeated by him resulting in the loss or capture of the Collector base has got to weigh on them to say nothing of interrupting their procreative process.
Those facts work on our enemy's minds. It instills doubt about their being invincible and it leaves them open to being overly cautious because they don't want to end up like their good buddy Sovereign. They will be open to combat deceptions where they rush in to take down the stupid mortals only to find themselves destroyed by a cleverly arranged ambush. When your foe is able to hurt you as we have already done and will continue to do, you begin to take care to insure your own health and that will slow them down. They will be forced to think before they take that next step.
When Shepard killed Nazara's avatar, he didn't just stun Sovereign, he killed him outright. The Reaper ship fell like an empty suit of armor and Joker only blasted the shell. It isn't that a Reaper has never been killed before, but that their Vanguard was killed, their Citadel mass relay is no longer theirs, their master relay has been destroyed, and their Collector base is gone putting a crimp in their reproduction. That's a whole string of defeats and one that has needled the Reapers because it has never happened before. Oh sure, there were a few victories scored on the Reapers as attested to by the Reaper corpse we got the friend or foe device from, but never a string of defeats one right behind the other and never by a single individual.
It means that life in the galaxy is finally beginning to overcome the Reapers and their technology and I will bet you that fact has the Reapers sweating bullets. In a sense, we have already struck the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th blows and the Reaper invasion was their response to those strikes because they can feel their supremacy slipping away.
That means that they couldn't stand down and go to sleep for a thousand years and allow the situation to die down. If they did that, they would likely lose the fight and that tells us more about our capabilities than any other thing they could have done. They invaded now not because they chose to, but because they had to. There is an old saying that if something can bleed, it can die. The galaxy has already proven that the Reapers bleed. I say we find a way to exsanguinate them all.
I advocate a different position: we can and will win this fight. That frame of mind alone changes the game by opening a window to victory. We will not lay down and die. We will fight and make the bastards work for every millimeter of ground they take. While we will be forced to fight defensively until we can organize an effective resistance, we are still light years ahead of where our predecessors were 50K years ago. The Reapers are off of their game precisely because their invasion has been interrupted once by a previous victim's actions and twice by Shepard. Also, the fact that one Reaper has been destroyed by him and one defeated by him resulting in the loss or capture of the Collector base has got to weigh on them to say nothing of interrupting their procreative process.
Those facts work on our enemy's minds. It instills doubt about their being invincible and it leaves them open to being overly cautious because they don't want to end up like their good buddy Sovereign. They will be open to combat deceptions where they rush in to take down the stupid mortals only to find themselves destroyed by a cleverly arranged ambush. When your foe is able to hurt you as we have already done and will continue to do, you begin to take care to insure your own health and that will slow them down. They will be forced to think before they take that next step.
When Shepard killed Nazara's avatar, he didn't just stun Sovereign, he killed him outright. The Reaper ship fell like an empty suit of armor and Joker only blasted the shell. It isn't that a Reaper has never been killed before, but that their Vanguard was killed, their Citadel mass relay is no longer theirs, their master relay has been destroyed, and their Collector base is gone putting a crimp in their reproduction. That's a whole string of defeats and one that has needled the Reapers because it has never happened before. Oh sure, there were a few victories scored on the Reapers as attested to by the Reaper corpse we got the friend or foe device from, but never a string of defeats one right behind the other and never by a single individual.
It means that life in the galaxy is finally beginning to overcome the Reapers and their technology and I will bet you that fact has the Reapers sweating bullets. In a sense, we have already struck the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th blows and the Reaper invasion was their response to those strikes because they can feel their supremacy slipping away.
That means that they couldn't stand down and go to sleep for a thousand years and allow the situation to die down. If they did that, they would likely lose the fight and that tells us more about our capabilities than any other thing they could have done. They invaded now not because they chose to, but because they had to. There is an old saying that if something can bleed, it can die. The galaxy has already proven that the Reapers bleed. I say we find a way to exsanguinate them all.
#65
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 01:02
knightnblu
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JamieCOTC wrote...
Shepard's mindset should be in the hands of the player. Whether that is killing everything in sight or trying to save as many as possible. Further more, I think a lot of people are missing the point of ME3. It's not about winning the war, because the Reapers can't win. It's about what state of the galaxy is in at the end of the war.
I completely agree with you. The player purchases the game and can play it any way they wish. It's theirs. But like iakus said, I am just debating an approach that has not been truly explored in my opinion.
#66
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 05:18
Iakus
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Reapers are not invincible. But they are very very tough. One Reaper=an entire fleet. At least. While this time around the galaxy has not been cut off by loss of the relay network, and that will likely be instrumental in giving us a chance at victory, losing a fleet for every Reaper destroyed is still a losing proposition. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of reapers entering the galaxy.
Cautious reapers will be even harder to kill. Likely it means they will be reluctant to go it alone. One Reaper was bad enough to face,even with its attention divided. What about two determined Reapers? Three? Five? All working in concert to pacify a world or smash defenses? What kind of trap could hurt a Reaper squadron?
I'm pretty sure it was explained that killing the Saren-avatar didn't kill Nazara, but greatly hurt and weakened him. The fleet then finished him off. I still don't see how those circumstances can be easily recreated though.
The Reaper plan has definitely gone wonky this time around, and it's cause for concern. But they still hold a massive technological edge. A concerted effort could still take the Citadel. Collectors can be replaced with...I dunno, batarians, maybe. With Earth captured, construction. on another human Reaper can begin. Several blows have been struck, yes. But nothing critical. Unless the Reapers act truly stupidly, I don't see how there's enough umph in the galaxy to destroy the Reapers. Not and leave anything left to save.
Cautious reapers will be even harder to kill. Likely it means they will be reluctant to go it alone. One Reaper was bad enough to face,even with its attention divided. What about two determined Reapers? Three? Five? All working in concert to pacify a world or smash defenses? What kind of trap could hurt a Reaper squadron?
I'm pretty sure it was explained that killing the Saren-avatar didn't kill Nazara, but greatly hurt and weakened him. The fleet then finished him off. I still don't see how those circumstances can be easily recreated though.
The Reaper plan has definitely gone wonky this time around, and it's cause for concern. But they still hold a massive technological edge. A concerted effort could still take the Citadel. Collectors can be replaced with...I dunno, batarians, maybe. With Earth captured, construction. on another human Reaper can begin. Several blows have been struck, yes. But nothing critical. Unless the Reapers act truly stupidly, I don't see how there's enough umph in the galaxy to destroy the Reapers. Not and leave anything left to save.
#67
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 02:17
knightnblu
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The Citadel is the one place that the Reapers are going to try to take with certainty and they are going to want to take it to get control of the relays. That cannot be allowed to happen. Once the Reapers had access to the gate, I really don't know why that wasn't their number one target, unless Shepard really pissed them off. It should be evacuated of civilians and rigged with nukes to insure its destruction and the nukes will have to be guarded to prevent the Keepers with tampering with them. Additionally, if we are lucky with the timing we can take out a few Reapers along the way by blowing the relay as well.
Unless I am wrong, the gates were designed to remain in the last state they were transitioned to by the Citadel with no other override possible. That means once the Citadel is gone, the gates stay open allowing the movement of defenders and of course, our enemies.
The last time a Reaper was engaged, it had an entire Geth fleet with it. When the Alliance attacked Sovereign, they lost 8 cruisers. That is not a fleet. A battle group perhaps, but not a fleet. I am not saying that we are going to get through this clean. What I am saying is that we are not in as bad a shape as everyone seems to believe. It is not impossible to take on the Reapers with what we have and win. Numbers are not all important.
Alexander the Great was always outnumbered when he initiated against an enemy and usually by 2 to 1and sometimes 3 to 1 or more. Tactics decrease an enemy's strengths and maximize your own. We just have to develop the right tactics to deal with the Reapers. It won't be a cake walk, but it can be done.
Unless I am wrong, the gates were designed to remain in the last state they were transitioned to by the Citadel with no other override possible. That means once the Citadel is gone, the gates stay open allowing the movement of defenders and of course, our enemies.
The last time a Reaper was engaged, it had an entire Geth fleet with it. When the Alliance attacked Sovereign, they lost 8 cruisers. That is not a fleet. A battle group perhaps, but not a fleet. I am not saying that we are going to get through this clean. What I am saying is that we are not in as bad a shape as everyone seems to believe. It is not impossible to take on the Reapers with what we have and win. Numbers are not all important.
Alexander the Great was always outnumbered when he initiated against an enemy and usually by 2 to 1and sometimes 3 to 1 or more. Tactics decrease an enemy's strengths and maximize your own. We just have to develop the right tactics to deal with the Reapers. It won't be a cake walk, but it can be done.
#68
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 02:47
Nightwriter
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I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind fighting the Reapers like a "gentleman." This is an alien menace that wants to destroy all things. Not even paragons are going to be consulting the Geneva Conventions while fighting them. Rules of war were created to apply to humanoids, not to Cthulhu or Galactus the Devourer of Planets.knightnblu wrote...
If you fight this enemy as a gentleman or in a civilized manner the Reapers will eat you alive. Man has made this mistake many times in the past and it has cost those who made it dearly. Expect worse from the Reapers.
#69
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 04:20
Il Divo
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Nightwriter wrote...
I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind fighting the Reapers like a "gentleman." This is an alien menace that wants to destroy all things. Not even paragons are going to be consulting the Geneva Conventions while fighting them. Rules of war were created to apply to humanoids, not to Cthulhu or Galactus the Devourer of Planets.knightnblu wrote...
If you fight this enemy as a gentleman or in a civilized manner the Reapers will eat you alive. Man has made this mistake many times in the past and it has cost those who made it dearly. Expect worse from the Reapers.
Hey, rules can be changed. The Reapers are sentient, are they not?
#70
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 05:10
Nightwriter
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Sentient and bent on xenocide.
Though a peace conference would be amusing. "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch our wartime prisoner part B clauses, fumbling in ignorance."
Though a peace conference would be amusing. "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch our wartime prisoner part B clauses, fumbling in ignorance."
#71
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 05:13
Il Divo
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Nightwriter wrote...
Sentient and bent on xenocide.
Though a peace conference would be amusing. "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch our wartime prisoner part B clauses, fumbling in ignorance."
I think you're on to something. I would love this in a kind of blooper reel at the end.
#72
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 10:32
Iakus
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It's a mystery to me why the Citadel hadn't fallen even before Earth. Al I can think of is somehow the Council had enough warning and managed to seal the place up before the Reapers arrived and it's now under siege. Though personally I doubt nukes would work on it. That place has been through how many cycles now? Clearly built to last.
And relays can be manually activated. The Council simply places prohibitions on it because who knows what can be on the other end. It's how the Rachni Wars started, and what triggered the First Contact War (turians caught humans opening every relay they could find) I don't know what the destruction of the CItadel would do for that. Probably something no one on either side of the conflict wants to find out.
The Alliance lost eight cruisers to the geth fleet while saving the Destiny Ascension. It's unknown how many were lost to Sovereign. But he was shrugging off their combined fire and killing cruisers with one shot from his guns, once he deigned to notice them. Sovereign rammed a turian cruiser like it wasn't even there, which says something about his armor as well as barriers. Hackett was being advised to pull back under that kind of fire, but he refused knowing they weren't going to get another shot at this.
It will definitely take tactics to beat the Reapers. But not the tactics anyone right now is used to. Atm the Reapers are the Empire and the Alliance are more akin to the Ewoks than the Rebel Alliance. I wouldn't count on winning just because humanity is a bunch of plucky teddy bears
And relays can be manually activated. The Council simply places prohibitions on it because who knows what can be on the other end. It's how the Rachni Wars started, and what triggered the First Contact War (turians caught humans opening every relay they could find) I don't know what the destruction of the CItadel would do for that. Probably something no one on either side of the conflict wants to find out.
The Alliance lost eight cruisers to the geth fleet while saving the Destiny Ascension. It's unknown how many were lost to Sovereign. But he was shrugging off their combined fire and killing cruisers with one shot from his guns, once he deigned to notice them. Sovereign rammed a turian cruiser like it wasn't even there, which says something about his armor as well as barriers. Hackett was being advised to pull back under that kind of fire, but he refused knowing they weren't going to get another shot at this.
It will definitely take tactics to beat the Reapers. But not the tactics anyone right now is used to. Atm the Reapers are the Empire and the Alliance are more akin to the Ewoks than the Rebel Alliance. I wouldn't count on winning just because humanity is a bunch of plucky teddy bears
Modifié par iakus, 12 décembre 2011 - 10:33 .
#73
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 10:37
Iakus
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Nightwriter wrote...
I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind fighting the Reapers like a "gentleman." This is an alien menace that wants to destroy all things. Not even paragons are going to be consulting the Geneva Conventions while fighting them. Rules of war were created to apply to humanoids, not to Cthulhu or Galactus the Devourer of Planets.knightnblu wrote...
If you fight this enemy as a gentleman or in a civilized manner the Reapers will eat you alive. Man has made this mistake many times in the past and it has cost those who made it dearly. Expect worse from the Reapers.
Yeah, I doubt treatment of Reapers is going to be a high priority for anyone. They try to kill kill you, you kill them right back. The difference here is how to go about it.
And I doubt treatment of prisoners is going to be much of an issue. I mean, how does one waterboard a Reaper?
#74
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 11:36
ubermensch007
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What is Commander Shepard's 'mindset' in Mass Effect 3?
That's a great question, Bill. One in fact that I haven't given much thought to, until now.How will Commander Shepard react when the Reapers invade? Will he have his sh!t together, or will he fall apart?
After the destruction of the Alpha Relay, he knows that the Nazarra are on the way, for certain.But when I think of how great a state of shock and awe, that the Reapers arrival shall put much of the galaxy in.Seeing as many never believed they exist.Shepard may have it roughest of all...
Think about it... For Shepard, the Reapers are an 'old' enemy.He fought them in a Cold War.For everyone else, they are a 'new' enemy.Shepard has thrawted them and postponed their invasion, on multiple occasions.But is he really in the right head space to even accept or comprehend the fact; that he can't put off this fight any longer? Does he even know how to fight a Reaper, in direct combat?
From what he says to Anderson:
The answer is: Shepard doesn't have a clue.How to fight the Reapers.And I think that is a very interesting and exciting place to meet our hero in ME3.The ultimate question or statement to be made about Mass Effect 3 is akin to what Admiral Korus said about him:
He was wrong of course.But like some people are better at becoming champion, than defending the title.Shepard was great at finding ways to postpone the Reaper Invasion.But now like a cat in a corner, he's forced to fight.The question is: Can he win?
Shepard is without a doubt, the greatest warrior in this entire generation of the Mass Effect Galaxy.He's the King of Pinnacle Station.And has slayed more hostile organic and synthetic sentient life forms, than anyone else.Even his 'collateral damage' death toll, surpasses most others. If not all. On Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Buffy Summers was told by the 'First' Slayer that "Death was her gift." The same could be said of Commander Shepard...For he is without a doubt Lord Hades favorite son.But will he receive his fathers blessing; against the Reapers?
That's a great question, Bill. One in fact that I haven't given much thought to, until now.How will Commander Shepard react when the Reapers invade? Will he have his sh!t together, or will he fall apart?
After the destruction of the Alpha Relay, he knows that the Nazarra are on the way, for certain.But when I think of how great a state of shock and awe, that the Reapers arrival shall put much of the galaxy in.Seeing as many never believed they exist.Shepard may have it roughest of all...
Think about it... For Shepard, the Reapers are an 'old' enemy.He fought them in a Cold War.For everyone else, they are a 'new' enemy.Shepard has thrawted them and postponed their invasion, on multiple occasions.But is he really in the right head space to even accept or comprehend the fact; that he can't put off this fight any longer? Does he even know how to fight a Reaper, in direct combat?
From what he says to Anderson:
Anderson: God! How do you fight something so powerful?
Shepard: I don't know.
The answer is: Shepard doesn't have a clue.How to fight the Reapers.And I think that is a very interesting and exciting place to meet our hero in ME3.The ultimate question or statement to be made about Mass Effect 3 is akin to what Admiral Korus said about him:
"A pity Shepard vas Normandy was a better speaker than soldier."
He was wrong of course.But like some people are better at becoming champion, than defending the title.Shepard was great at finding ways to postpone the Reaper Invasion.But now like a cat in a corner, he's forced to fight.The question is: Can he win?
Shepard is without a doubt, the greatest warrior in this entire generation of the Mass Effect Galaxy.He's the King of Pinnacle Station.And has slayed more hostile organic and synthetic sentient life forms, than anyone else.Even his 'collateral damage' death toll, surpasses most others. If not all. On Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Buffy Summers was told by the 'First' Slayer that "Death was her gift." The same could be said of Commander Shepard...For he is without a doubt Lord Hades favorite son.But will he receive his fathers blessing; against the Reapers?
