314 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

alex90c wrote...

The more and more I thought about the game, it was just impossible for me to overlook the flaws, and now here I am, loathing the game with every inch of my being and actually moved on to become a Mass Effect fan instead.

Not that much to add to this actually. Still, I'm gonna say some things, most of which I've said before somewhere around here.

I haven't started DA2 since about a month after release, looking back on two completed playthroughs and a number of started games. My first playthrough should have naturally found an end after act 2, instead I got an unsatisfying and nonsensical end after act 3.  The second playthrough was more satisfying in terms of story coherence, because I was prepared for certain things and due to the fact that not much could be changed anyways I managed to make it seem rather sensible. At this point I was already fed up with the combat though, so playthrough 2 was on casual.

The recycled enviroments for example wouldn't have bothered me as much if it weren't for all the other objective problems the game had, and more than that the things that extremely bothered me personally, like the new art style and the new combat animations. The latter more or less completely disconnected the experience in DA2 from what I learned and loved about the world of Dragon Age in Origins. For me at least the elves and the darkspawn were, I don't want to say ruined, but altered almost beyond recognition, and not at least for the better. I couldn't use melee rogues because of their ott combat animations, I couldn't play a mage due to the incredibly flawed relation between story and gameplay. Not equipping my companions was problematic because I simply found some of their outfits ridiculous.

Anyways, all this is known and has been said before. What has changed since then? Nothing for me. I read about the actually well received story DLCs, and more than anything I got angry that it seems like more effort was put into those than into the DA:O DLCs. And whatever enhancements they bring to DA2 are lost to me, because I can't be bothered to pay for them. The last time I noticed that my feelings towards DA2 probably wouldn't change was when I watche Felicia Day's video about herself playing MotA - the second I saw the combat in action I cringed.

I played DA:O more or less straight until the release of DA2, but afterwards I was tired of Dragon Age in general, and so I turned towards the Mass Effect games, which I learned to love dearly.

[Iakus]

 I'm actually doing a third run right now.  My opinio is still pretty much the same as when I first played the game.

The hate isn't entirely deserved, but it's still a far cry from what DAO was.

DA2 tried to do some thing differently.  It had some good ideas, just didn't really pull them off very well.  Framed narrative, hubs in time rather than place, all could have been amazing.  It just...wasn't...If there was a greater sense of the passage of time, of Hawke's choices had a greater impact on the storyline, this okay game could have been amazing.  Maybe surpassing DAO.

Ultimately what saved DA2 for me were the characters.  The companions are where the game was able to really shine.  The game really came alive with their quests, their banter, their dialogue.  

One other thing, a bit of advice for DA3 or any other sequels that may get made for that matter:  Either allow for previous games choices, or don't even try to maintain continuity.  As far as I'm concerned, "Anders" left Vigil Keep for only a few weeks, came back, and lived happily ever after as a Grey Warden.  The Anders in Kirkwall was simply a simliar-looking Grey Warden mage, possibly from a parallel universe.  Needless to say, the rewriting of a favorite character bugged me.  A lot

If we get a voice in the story, let us have a voice in the story, don't just say "Continuity's what I say it is" 

So anyway.  Dragon Age 2 had some good stuff.  Some bad stuff.  Good.  Not great.  Overall glad I got the game.  Here's hoping it was a learning experience.

[TheRealJayDee]

iakus wrote...

The Anders in Kirkwall was simply a simliar-looking Grey Warden mage, possibly from a parallel universe.  Needless to say, the rewriting of a favorite character bugged me.  A lot

Yep, same here. On my second playthrough I managed to think of not-Anders as a whole different person, and actually talked to him even if the game didn't force me to.

[alex90c]

iakus wrote...

 I'm actually doing a third run right now.  My opinio is still pretty much the same as when I first played the game.

The hate isn't entirely deserved, but it's still a far cry from what DAO was.

DA2 tried to do some thing differently.  It had some good ideas, just didn't really pull them off very well.  Framed narrative, hubs in time rather than place, all could have been amazing.  It just...wasn't...If there was a greater sense of the passage of time, of Hawke's choices had a greater impact on the storyline, this okay game could have been amazing.  Maybe surpassing DAO.

Ultimately what saved DA2 for me were the characters.  The companions are where the game was able to really shine.  The game really came alive with their quests, their banter, their dialogue.  

One other thing, a bit of advice for DA3 or any other sequels that may get made for that matter:  Either allow for previous games choices, or don't even try to maintain continuity.  As far as I'm concerned, "Anders" left Vigil Keep for only a few weeks, came back, and lived happily ever after as a Grey Warden.  The Anders in Kirkwall was simply a simliar-looking Grey Warden mage, possibly from a parallel universe.  Needless to say, the rewriting of a favorite character bugged me.  A lot

If we get a voice in the story, let us have a voice in the story, don't just say "Continuity's what I say it is" 

So anyway.  Dragon Age 2 had some good stuff.  Some bad stuff.  Good.  Not great.  Overall glad I got the game.  Here's hoping it was a learning experience.

Eh. I'd say the amount of banter was good (and Mass Effect should take pointers from that) but I found most of the characters just one-dimensional and always, always had some kind of extreme trait which defined their entire personality and was just over-the-top. Merrill? ******. Repeat ad nauseam for seven years. Anders? Mage freedom. Hates templars. Sounds like a broken record, doesn't stop going on about it for the entire game. Fenris? Hates mages? Sure, understandable, but the moaning and groaning gets wearisome (inb4 HURRRDURRR DATS WHUT I FEEL ABOUT DUR DA2 H8ERS HURRRDURRR). Carver? Whine, whine whine. Bethany? Well .... there isn't really much character there anyway. Isabela? Yes, thank you for brining up sex for the 50th time, we didn't quite catch it the first 49 times.

And though not a companion, God, Leandra was just a tool. Gamlen had to work his ass off when they were younger because their parents didn't give a toss about him, he loses the estate Leandra didn't give a crap about when she moved to Ferelden, and only when she moves back she goes off on a huge rant to him and acts like a ****** to him. She couldn't die soon enough.

[dsl08002]

DA2 is still bad

[Gunderic]

The game is bad, and it's not a matter of why and how. Every problem the franchise now faces can be traced back at its current lead designer, Mike Laidlaw.

[Gunderic]

Persephone wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Then climb down. You do almost nothing else on this forum, than attacking people who express dislike for DA2. And you never have any point, except that you found DA:O much more -whatever- worse. I've seen you do this for months. Often interjecting such posts after each and every.

3) Couldn't care less about your feelings there. Such feelings can be expressed without insults, rudeness and generalizations. It's been done before, you know?

See? How antagonistic you are? And how is this statement by you not using these generalizations?

4) To you. Yes. That makes it what? More important than the delight others found in it?

Again, antagonistic and quarrelsome. And no other point. And for that purpose you also project things on me I have never said.

5) Mood? MOOD is what is being questioned now? What IS DAO's "mood"? My playthroughs had different "moods" ....so which one is the "right" one?

How was this so hard to understand? Because you wanted to argue? The mood of the games are different. That has not much to do with whatever mood you have.

6) And I think that, maybe, you should stop considering a GAME that came out 9 months ago as a personal insult.

So then, tell me how I'm considering this 9 month old game a personal insult?

Yeesh.

Indeed.

Oh, the hypocrisy sure is grand there. No points.....sure. Because I never discussed the game(s), my preferences & reasons at length. Wait, I did. Whatever.

Saying that critical opinions can be expressed without reducing those who disagree to ten year olds is antagonistic....right....and a generalization. Sure.

You moaning about "antagonistic" and "quarrelsome" would be a lot more believeable were it not for your own antagonistic and quarrelsome posts. Like the one I quoted, among others. Seriously, you're playing the victim now? Ok.

There is no set mood for either game that everybody will agree on. Easy as that. It's a moot point.

How? You really don't see it, do you?

Indeed. Yes.

'mood' refers to the emotional charges of the story.

[Annie_Dear]

The Nostalgia Critic summs up my thoughts of the game pretty well: www.youtube.com/watch

[curlzncrush]

It took me playing Skyrim for a shameful number of hours, replaying Dragon Age: Origins (in preparation for DA3...gotta have that perfect playthrough), Awakening and watching every dev diary and 'making of' video made for DA2, but now I understand exactly what Bioware was going for (they were never hesitant in discussing how they where taking the game in a new direction).

And I like it too.  I like everything they've done with it.  From the new companion armor system, to the crafting and resource.  Less is more, right?  Right?

Now that I've invested so much time into the Dragon Age franchise, I think DA2 is now my favorite game.

And yes, I was one of those people who had a whine-fest a few months back. But I take back almost everything I said.

I complained about:

Combat: Now some of my favorite combat. I get so pumped up every time I score a cross-class combo. I even noticed that the game actually DOES have finishing moves, but they're subtle and don't always come in at the killing blow (it's really just a special flourish that looks pretty cool...and it's available for all classes).

Romance: The romance with Merrill (the only one I've ever actually attempted) grows on me ever time I play through the game. It's surprisingly mature and took me a few plays to appreciate it. And here I thought Leliana was without equal (well...she still sort of is).

Branching Story: Okay, so maybe the final battle ended up the same way regardless of your choice. But that works for two reasons. One, DA2 is supposed to be a lead-up to DA3 which means there has to be some constant elements in the plotline. Two, for all we know, Hawke's actions were never wrapped up in an epilogue. Because DA2 was intended to be a more personal tale, Hawke has influenced individuals rather than large factions (with some exceptions).

If DA2 were to have an epilogue like that of Origins (not that it needs it), it would cover all those personal stories about the many people that Hawke helped or hurt throughout his decade in Kirkwall.

I also complained about the lack of anything compelling to push Hawke further. The Warden had Archdemon, true, but Hawke instead has his companions' side plots to push Hawke further. This further reflects Bioware's intention to create a more personal narrative.

*
I guess what I'm trying (and fumbling) to say is that looking back on DA2, I realize just how much I like the game and didn't want to let myself admit how great it was.

I used to think I wanted another Origins, but now I think Bioware has taken endured enough criticism that whatever flaws DA2 may have had, they will be long gone by the time DA3 hits the shelves.

Modifié par curlzncrush, 10 décembre 2011 - 12:42 .

[bEVEsthda]

curlzncrush wrote...

It took me playing Skyrim for a shameful number of hours, replaying Dragon Age: Origins (in preparation for DA3...gotta have that perfect playthrough), Awakening and watching every dev diary and 'making of' video made for DA2, but now I understand exactly what Bioware was going for (they were never hesitant in discussing how they where taking the game in a new direction).

And I like it too.  I like everything they've done with it.  From the new companion armor system, to the crafting and resource.  Less is more, right?  Right?

Now that I've invested so much time into the Dragon Age franchise, I think DA2 is now my favorite game.

And yes, I was one of those people who had a whine-fest a few months back. But I take back almost everything I said.

I complained about:

Combat: Now some of my favorite combat. I get so pumped up every time I score a cross-class combo. I even noticed that the game actually DOES have finishing moves, but they're subtle and don't always come in at the killing blow (it's really just a special flourish that looks pretty cool...and it's available for all classes).

Romance: The romance with Merrill (the only one I've ever actually attempted) grows on me ever time I play through the game. It's surprisingly mature and took me a few plays to appreciate it. And here I thought Leliana was without equal (well...she still sort of is).

Branching Story: Okay, so maybe the final battle ended up the same way regardless of your choice. But that works for two reasons. One, DA2 is supposed to be a lead-up to DA3 which means there has to be some constant elements in the plotline. Two, for all we know, Hawke's actions were never wrapped up in an epilogue. Because DA2 was intended to be a more personal tale, Hawke has influenced individuals rather than large factions (with some exceptions).

If DA2 were to have an epilogue like that of Origins (not that it needs it), it would cover all those personal stories about the many people that Hawke helped or hurt throughout his decade in Kirkwall.

I also complained about the lack of anything compelling to push Hawke further. The Warden had Archdemon, true, but Hawke instead has his companions' side plots to push Hawke further. This further reflects Bioware's intention to create a more personal narrative.

*
I guess what I'm trying (and fumbling) to say is that looking back on DA2, I realize just how much I like the game and didn't want to let myself admit how great it was.

I used to think I wanted another Origins, but now I think Bioware has taken endured enough criticism that whatever flaws DA2 may have had, they will be long gone by the time DA3 hits the shelves.

I'm fairly convinced this is for real, though I feel unreality tingling all over my skin, and I do know that some people enjoy DA2. I can even perceive circumstances that would make DA2 enjoyable. So your sentiments are fine, I have nothing to say about them other than that I'm not on your side of the fence.

However, on the off chance that you might be one of those EA/Bioware people that were involved in the direction-shift of DA2, and still for some stubborn reason believe in it and still want to push it, like "if they just discover how great it is" - I have to throw in a reality check for you: This won't work!

[J.C. Blade]

I still find it as unplayable as ever. I managed to finish it once, re-load the save just before the end to see the “other” option (which in itself brought nothing) and uninstalled it and deleted saves.

If DA3 ever rolls around, and provided I buy it, I’ll just import the default save for DA2. I honestly could not care less which gender Hawke was, which class or whom he/she chose as a life partner - this in particular since even Skyrim marriage proposals don't make me go O.O as much as DA2's romances did…

To sum it up in simple terms, Dragon Age 2 is just... not the type of game I enjoy playing. However, congratulations to those who do since it looks like the industry will just continue making more of the same in the future.

[Gunderic]

J.C. Blade wrote...

I still find it as unplayable as ever. I managed to finish it once, re-load the save just before the end to see the “other” option (which in itself brought nothing) and uninstalled it and deleted saves.

If DA3 ever rolls around, and provided I buy it, I’ll just import the default save for DA2. I honestly could not care less which gender Hawke was, which class or whom he/she chose as a life partner - this in particular since even Skyrim marriage proposals don't make me go O.O as much as DA2's romances did…

To sum it up in simple terms, Dragon Age 2 is just... not the type of game I enjoy playing. However, congratulations to those who do since it looks like the industry will just continue making more of the same in the future.

Nah. Fans went against DA 2. BioWare might make another crappy DA 2 game, and get blasted for it, but I don't see why the industry would want to follow.

But it's actually the reason I would not want BioWare to succeed with games like Dragon Age 2. More success can indeed, very easily mean = more Dragon Shame 2. And that's terrible.

[J.C. Blade]

I see it more as them wanting to make games that will deliver and tell their story to the players rather than have players participate in and explore their stories - cinematic experience and all.

I didn't like that. I don't like cinematic games. And if I want action with hundreds of enemies coming out of no-where I'll play Sacred and Sacred 2, thank you.

[Terastar]

Dragon Age II has alot of really nice things done really well. I really enjoy playing this game but not as much as I enjoyed playing Dragon Age Origins.The reason for me is because of "How I feel" after playing the Warden is a totally different feeling than I have after playing Hawk.
The Warden is a Hero before they disappear. They have made alot of friends and even had a real affect on the whole nation.
Hawk on the other hand was in exile from Kirkwell even before they disappear. Hawk is not a Hero they are a looser.
Hawk had alot of stuff happen around them and through them but not so much as Because of "them and their actions" like the Warden is able to accomplish.
The gameplay and the banter was alot better in Dragon Age II. The environment was fine except for the recycling part. For the DLC I liked Legacy but I do not like MOTA for much of the same reasons as liking Dragon Age Origins better than Dragon Age II. I finally had a little bit of liking for Hawk in Legacy but in MOTA Hawk was again a total Looser. I do not like playing a looser character.

[Zjarcal]

alex90c wrote...

Eh. I'd say the amount of banter was good (and Mass Effect should take pointers from that) but I found most of the characters just one-dimensional and always, always had some kind of extreme trait which defined their entire personality and was just over-the-top. Merrill? ******. Repeat ad nauseam for seven years. Anders? Mage freedom. Hates templars. Sounds like a broken record, doesn't stop going on about it for the entire game. Fenris? Hates mages? Sure, understandable, but the moaning and groaning gets wearisome (inb4 HURRRDURRR DATS WHUT I FEEL ABOUT DUR DA2 H8ERS HURRRDURRR). Carver? Whine, whine whine. Bethany? Well .... there isn't really much character there anyway. Isabela? Yes, thank you for brining up sex for the 50th time, we didn't quite catch it the first 49 times.

And though not a companion, God, Leandra was just a tool. Gamlen had to work his ass off when they were younger because their parents didn't give a toss about him, he loses the estate Leandra didn't give a crap about when she moved to Ferelden, and only when she moves back she goes off on a huge rant to him and acts like a ****** to him. She couldn't die soon enough.

Alex90c... "I HATE THE DA2 CAST AND I WILL REPEAT IT AD NAUSEUM FOR EVER AND EVER!"

You're pretty one dimensional too. 

Just kidding... kind of.

[jlb524]

Zjarcal wrote...

Alex90c... "I HATE THE DA2 CAST AND I WILL REPEAT IT AD NAUSEUM FOR EVER AND EVER!"

You're pretty one dimensional too. 

Just kidding... kind of.

[Akka le Vil]

The fighting is still looking stupid, ridiculous and over-the-top, far inferior to the more realistic feel of DAO in practically everything but the responsiveness (which is more about how they "cheated" with near-teleportation when you engage a foe, rather than making it really more responsive) and the talent trees (which are one of the few real progress in DA2).

The waves are still a cretinous and laughable idea, the twenty-to-one ratio between foes and normal NPC making the streets and wilderness nearly entirely populated by gangs of hundreds of bandits moving in entire battallions is still idiotic, and the level scaling still make the very leveling process completely useless and redundant.

The new artistic direction with Skelettor-darkspawn and Mutant-elves is still ugly and goofy.

The story is still linear and without any player agenda - but I still like the "personnal" feeling it has.

The classes still feel artificially constrained and the game is still horribly lacking in immersion with the world-building destroyed by superficial and lazy storytelling ("hello, I'm a guy with a mage staff and launching spells right in the street without anyone reactiong, while the entire story is about mages being oppressed by Templar") and the idiotic fighting.

In the end, my opinion haven't changed a bit, in good or in bad, since the first time I played. I guess I'm the kind of person who like or dislike something for a very definite reason and hence doesn't usually have a change in heart in these matters.

DA2 is still a horribly consolized and dumbed down rushed game that disgrace the serie and show that the "broad market" is dragging down yet another franchise/developper into the morass of mediocrity to make shallow production for the masses.

[Mr.House]

Akka le Vil wrote...

The fighting is still looking stupid, ridiculous and over-the-top, far inferior to the more realistic feel of DAO in practically everything but the responsiveness (which is more about how they "cheated" with near-teleportation when you engage a foe, rather than making it really more responsive) and the talent trees (which are one of the few real progress in DA2).

The waves are still a cretinous and laughable idea, the twenty-to-one ratio between foes and normal NPC making the streets and wilderness nearly entirely populated by gangs of hundreds of bandits moving in entire battallions is still idiotic, and the level scaling still make the very leveling process completely useless and redundant.

The new artistic direction with Skelettor-darkspawn and Mutant-elves is still ugly and goofy.

The story is still linear and without any player agenda - but I still like the "personnal" feeling it has.

The classes still feel artificially constrained and the game is still horribly lacking in immersion with the world-building destroyed by superficial and lazy storytelling ("hello, I'm a guy with a mage staff and launching spells right in the street without anyone reactiong, while the entire story is about mages being oppressed by Templar") and the idiotic fighting.

In the end, my opinion haven't changed a bit, in good or in bad, since the first time I played. I guess I'm the kind of person who like or dislike something for a very definite reason and hence doesn't usually have a change in heart in these matters.

DA2 is still a horribly consolized and dumbed down rushed game that disgrace the serie and show that the "broad market" is dragging down yet another franchise/developper into the morass of mediocrity to make shallow production for the masses.

DAO did not feel that realistic.

[Mr.House]

Gunderic wrote...

The game is bad, and it's not a matter of why and how. Every problem the franchise now faces can be traced back at its current lead designer, Mike Laidlaw.

Yes because cleary it's all one mans faults. Grow up.

[Ciryx]

Gunderic wrote...

The game is bad, and it's not a matter of why and how. Every problem the franchise now faces can be traced back at its current lead designer, Mike Laidlaw.

a) Considering the time they had to develop DA 2 he did an amazing job.
The things that got improved really are better then in DA 1, they just dont get the recognition they deserve due to the overall quatlity. (multipe stages in boss fights, talent systems, no redundant spells etc etc.)
c) If you think Mike Laidlaw can afford to run a one-man-show ala George Lucas on Episode 1 you clearly have no clue about game production. At all.

Not trying to sell DA2 to anyone here AS the better gameexperience compared to DA1. Just saying that people should try to be objective.

[Hambacon]

curlzncrush- i totally agree

[rak72]

Why do people keep talking about cross class combos like they didn't exist in DAO? If your mage does a cone of cold, & a warrior shield bashes or mighty blows them, they will shatter too.

[RagingCyclone]

rak72 wrote...

Why do people keep talking about cross class combos like they didn't exist in DAO? If your mage does a cone of cold, & a warrior shield bashes or mighty blows them, they will shatter too.

Rak, I'd hazard a guess people don't remember/realize it was always there because DAO did not have an achievment for it like DA2 does. Just a guess.

[Melca36]

DA:2 has it strengths as well as weaknesses. Origins has the same.

I hope people don't expect the combat to be the exactly the same for the next game because the developers already said they plan to change it.

[Melca36]

Ciryx wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

The game is bad, and it's not a matter of why and how. Every problem the franchise now faces can be traced back at its current lead designer, Mike Laidlaw.

a) Considering the time they had to develop DA 2 he did an amazing job.
The things that got improved really are better then in DA 1, they just dont get the recognition they deserve due to the overall quatlity. (multipe stages in boss fights, talent systems, no redundant spells etc etc.)
c) If you think Mike Laidlaw can afford to run a one-man-show ala George Lucas on Episode 1 you clearly have no clue about game production. At all.

Not trying to sell DA2 to anyone here AS the better gameexperience compared to DA1. Just saying that people should try to be objective.

How come the developers said mistakes were made then?