314 réponses à ce sujet

[deatharmonic]

Ciryx wrote...

deatharmonic wrote...

compare it to other companies with a similar budget/dev time? thats not a proper measure at all, the companies are different and the games in development are different

what about those who liked the boss fights in DAO more than DA2? Why are multiple stages to boss fights better? to some people they are not, i didn't like the multiple stages, i didn't like the mechanics, i didn't like that they stop me from glugging potions so i wouldn't call them improvements and you certainly do not get to set the standard for what is objective. 

yes they TRIED to make the fights more engaging, my experience of this was evidently different to yours.... but i would agree with the redundent spells.

How do you judge time/quality if you dont compare it to other products with familiar budget/time?

Might I ask if it really was the bossmechanics that you disliked so much? And not the setting, the sourroundings and various other things about the bossfight? Heck, even the backstory that lead up to the fight. I know i loved the broodmother of DA1 for that one. (even though the fight itself wasnt that cool)
To be honest I have a hard time understanding that clicking the healthpotionbutton on cooldown was REALLY more exiting then the stonewraith, were you had to kill adds and hide behind pillars etc.

I would suggest comparing the budget/dev time to something similar done by the same company. Although i wouldn't like to make comparisons anyway because there are so many variables which could influence the quality of a product, even if the budget and dev times were the same.

I'm not a fan of Dragon age combat and boss fights as it is, they bore me and i guess everything else contributes to my dislike just as much as the boss mechs. I found the fights in DAO playable nothing memorable, the things that were added in order to improve them merely made them different for me and slightly more tedious. As for potion glugging, when i play RPG's its not about how challenging the fights are for me, its all about the story, the imersion and the role play, thats what gets me into it. So i like a bit of potion glugging to get me through a few things here and there.

[Mr.House]

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

No thank you. It slows down the flow of the combat and has my warriors busy doing something while the game is doing a slo mo scene I just saw a couple of minutes ago, worse, they can still take damage. It did nothing for the game at all. If they where done like Skyrims deathblows I would be all for it, but anything like DAO? Hell no, keep that crap away.

Modifié par Mr.House, 10 décembre 2011 - 08:07 .

[Zjarcal]

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

I can't say I tie my sense of accomplishement in finishing a boss fight to a death animation. I mean sure, riding a dragon's head is cool and all, but I wouldn't tie the sense of accomplishement to that. That's just me of course.

[csfteeeer]

Mr.House wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

No thank you. It slows down the flow of the combat and has my warriors busy doing something while the game is doing a slo mo scene I just saw a couple of minutes ago, worse, they can still take damage. It did nothing for the game at all. If they where done like Skyrims deathblows I would be all for it, but anything like DAO? Hell no, keep that crap away.

No.

[deatharmonic]

Flashing Steel wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

deatharmonic--most of the boss fights in DAO were also multi-stage battles, they were just not as obvious about the stages. The broodmother, the archdemon, the high dragon, and even Branka all were multi-stage fights. Yes DAO did a better job of concealing those stages, but to say they were not there is false...just not as noticeable as DA2's.

You may want to re-read what he/she wrote, they never stated multiple stages were not there.

thank you sir 

[Mr.House]

csfteeeer wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

No thank you. It slows down the flow of the combat and has my warriors busy doing something while the game is doing a slo mo scene I just saw a couple of minutes ago, worse, they can still take damage. It did nothing for the game at all. If they where done like Skyrims deathblows I would be all for it, but anything like DAO? Hell no, keep that crap away.

No.

Way to add to the conversation.

[adneate]

Months later I feel pretty much the same, it's not very good and it doesn't really feel like a Dragon Age sequel. More like an interpretation of the franchise by another design team or something like The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard, except done poorly.

[Melca36]

Zjarcal wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

I can't say I tie my sense of accomplishement in finishing a boss fight to a death animation. I mean sure, riding a dragon's head is cool and all, but I wouldn't tie the sense of accomplishement to that. That's just me of course.

I just don't see why Hawke had to be the only one to get the final kill.  Hawke was supposed to be this normal character. Why did they have to get the final kills.

Why couldn't we have seen Aveline, Isabela, or Fenris get them?

I want a game with my cutscenes.

[Mr.House]

Melca36 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

I can't say I tie my sense of accomplishement in finishing a boss fight to a death animation. I mean sure, riding a dragon's head is cool and all, but I wouldn't tie the sense of accomplishement to that. That's just me of course.

I just don't see why Hawke had to be the only one to get the final kill.  Hawke was supposed to be this normal character. Why did they have to get the final kills.

Why couldn't we have seen Aveline, Isabela, or Fenris get them?

I want a game with my cutscenes.

Why could Morrigan/Wynn/Leli/Dog/SHale not be able to get them in DAO?

[Ciryx]

deatharmonic wrote...

I would suggest comparing the budget/dev time to something similar done by the same company. Although i wouldn't like to make comparisons anyway because there are so many variables which could influence the quality of a product, even if the budget and dev times were the same.

I'm not a fan of Dragon age combat and boss fights as it is, they bore me and i guess everything else contributes to my dislike just as much as the boss mechs. I found the fights in DAO playable nothing memorable, the things that were added in order to improve them merely made them different for me and slightly more tedious. As for potion glugging, when i play RPG's its not about how challenging the fights are for me, its all about the story, the imersion and the role play, thats what gets me into it. So i like a bit of potion glugging to get me through a few things here and there.

Well, you could try to do that. But tbh to really appreciate the work the team did in only 18 month you would have to know quite a bit about game development. I know I do, I dont know about you. So lets just leave it there.

Dont missunderstand me, but if Bossfights and Fights in general do annoy you, why do you even start a discussion about it? I stated that DA 2 fights were improved compared to DA 1 fights in terms of stages/thought on the side of the player and yaddayadda all the stuff I explained.
If you dont even care about it either way why would you start arguing? I cant help but think that you are a troll. 

[Melca36]

Mr.House wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

No thank you. It slows down the flow of the combat and has my warriors busy doing something while the game is doing a slo mo scene I just saw a couple of minutes ago, worse, they can still take damage. It did nothing for the game at all. If they where done like Skyrims deathblows I would be all for it, but anything like DAO? Hell no, keep that crap away.

Thats what I want...like Skyrim's.  But I want my companions to get them...like Origins.

I just thought it was stupid to see Hawke dead and then the cutscene comes on. It ruined the immersion for me.

I understand why everything has to end with a cutscene.

[Zjarcal]

Melca36 wrote...

I just don't see why Hawke had to be the only one to get the final kill.  Hawke was supposed to be this normal character. Why did they have to get the final kills.

Why couldn't we have seen Aveline, Isabela, or Fenris get them?

I want a game with my cutscenes.

Not saying they shouldn't, I was just referring to the "sense of accomplishement" bit.

[RagingCyclone]

Filament wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

deatharmonic--most of the boss fights in DAO were also multi-stage battles, they were just not as obvious about the stages. The broodmother, the archdemon, the high dragon, and even Branka all were multi-stage fights. Yes DAO did a better job of concealing those stages, but to say they were not there is false...just not as noticeable as DA2's.

That really depends on what you mean by multi-stage. If you mean just subtle changes to their tactics routines when their health is lower, maybe. If you mean having a stage where they fight one on one, then they fly onto a cliff and lob fireballs, or they jump on a wyvern, most of those examples you cited aren't anything like that. Archdemon is the only one to have those sorts of 'stages.' Granted, you didn't mention Harvester, which does too.

Broodmother does, at a certain health stage DS come from the side tunnels, at a lower health DS come from those side tunnels and a couple more...those are stages. Think back to those fights and you will recognize them. Branka at a certain health stage will spawn copies of herself. Granted the highdragon might not exactly fit those, but the others do have the stages.

[Melca36]

Mr.House wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

There is no sense of accomplishment in the boss battles in DA:2. Hawke gets them all in the same reptitive cut scene. As much as I enjoy cut scenes I want an actual game and not just a cinematic interactive.

I can't say I tie my sense of accomplishement in finishing a boss fight to a death animation. I mean sure, riding a dragon's head is cool and all, but I wouldn't tie the sense of accomplishement to that. That's just me of course.

I just don't see why Hawke had to be the only one to get the final kill.  Hawke was supposed to be this normal character. Why did they have to get the final kills.

Why couldn't we have seen Aveline, Isabela, or Fenris get them?

I want a game with my cutscenes.

Why could Morrigan/Wynn/Leli/Dog/SHale not be able to get them in DAO?

Actually...Leliana did get the High Dragon in one of my Origins games.  

In DA:2...I would have just enjoyed seeing one of the other companions get the final kill. It got repetitive with Hawke getting them and sort of detracted from the story for me.

If Hawke was supposed to be so oridinary and basic and un-warden like....why did he or she always get the final kills?

[Mr.House]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Filament wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

deatharmonic--most of the boss fights in DAO were also multi-stage battles, they were just not as obvious about the stages. The broodmother, the archdemon, the high dragon, and even Branka all were multi-stage fights. Yes DAO did a better job of concealing those stages, but to say they were not there is false...just not as noticeable as DA2's.

That really depends on what you mean by multi-stage. If you mean just subtle changes to their tactics routines when their health is lower, maybe. If you mean having a stage where they fight one on one, then they fly onto a cliff and lob fireballs, or they jump on a wyvern, most of those examples you cited aren't anything like that. Archdemon is the only one to have those sorts of 'stages.' Granted, you didn't mention Harvester, which does too.

Broodmother does, at a certain health stage DS come from the side tunnels, at a lower health DS come from those side tunnels and a couple more...those are stages. Think back to those fights and you will recognize them. Branka at a certain health stage will spawn copies of herself. Granted the highdragon might not exactly fit those, but the others do have the stages.

Funny, Darkspawn are there all the time, so it does not count, neither doest he Highdragon. Branka, Archdemon, Queen of the Blackmarsh, Baroness and the Harvester are multi stage bossess in DAO.

[Melca36]

Zjarcal wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I just don't see why Hawke had to be the only one to get the final kill.  Hawke was supposed to be this normal character. Why did they have to get the final kills.

Why couldn't we have seen Aveline, Isabela, or Fenris get them?

I want a game with my cutscenes.

Not saying they shouldn't, I was just referring to the "sense of accomplishement" bit.

What I mean is I do not feel a sense of accomplishment with a cut scene. I felt a rush getting the finishing moves in Origins as I do with the finishing moves in Skyrim.

I want that back and I want to see all the companions get the moves like they did in Origins. It made the game fun. 

[deatharmonic]

Ciryx wrote...

deatharmonic wrote...

I would suggest comparing the budget/dev time to something similar done by the same company. Although i wouldn't like to make comparisons anyway because there are so many variables which could influence the quality of a product, even if the budget and dev times were the same.

I'm not a fan of Dragon age combat and boss fights as it is, they bore me and i guess everything else contributes to my dislike just as much as the boss mechs. I found the fights in DAO playable nothing memorable, the things that were added in order to improve them merely made them different for me and slightly more tedious. As for potion glugging, when i play RPG's its not about how challenging the fights are for me, its all about the story, the imersion and the role play, thats what gets me into it. So i like a bit of potion glugging to get me through a few things here and there.

Well, you could try to do that. But tbh to really appreciate the work the team did in only 18 month you would have to know quite a bit about game development. I know I do, I dont know about you. So lets just leave it there.

Dont missunderstand me, but if Bossfights and Fights in general do annoy you, why do you even start a discussion about it? I stated that DA 2 fights were improved compared to DA 1 fights in terms of stages/thought on the side of the player and yaddayadda all the stuff I explained.
If you dont even care about it either way why would you start arguing? I cant help but think that you are a troll. 

This thread is not about boss fights, so i am well with in my rights to pip in <_<. The reason i did was because it annoyed me how you were telling others to be objective when the points you made were anything but, as pointed out by xkg too.

[bEVEsthda]

deatharmonic wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

The game is bad, and it's not a matter of why and how. Every problem the franchise now faces can be traced back at its current lead designer, Mike Laidlaw.

a) Considering the time they had to develop DA 2 he did an amazing job.
The things that got improved really are better then in DA 1, they just dont get the recognition they deserve due to the overall quatlity. (multipe stages in boss fights, talent systems, no redundant spells etc etc.)
c) If you think Mike Laidlaw can afford to run a one-man-show ala George Lucas on Episode 1 you clearly have no clue about game production. At all.

Not trying to sell DA2 to anyone here AS the better gameexperience compared to DA1. Just saying that people should try to be objective.

Other than point C nothing you've said there is objective so don't suggest others should be. You think they did a good job for the time they had, doesn't mean they did. Doesn't mean they could have done better, which i believe what Melca meant when the devs said mistakes were made - as they believe some things could have been done better too, even in the time-frame given. Same goes for the things which were 'improved', you think they were improved, personally i didn't like the boss fights, thats not to say i like them in DAO but i dont think they were improved at all.

I did NOT LIKE DA2. I disliked it very much, and hope I have poured enough vitriol over it on these forums for that message to get across. However, I have focused on art direction, style and general new direction of the game. I have not participated in 'constructive criticism' because the important part for me is that I don't like it. The game lacks seriousness in every thing. It tries to be "fun" and "kewl". I could probably live with most "flaws" in DA2, just as I lived with the manna system, auto-health and auto-resurrection in DA:O. - If I had liked the game. But I don't, it doesn't give me anything of what I want from a cRPG. The situations are wrong. More than anything else, the atmosphere, the mood, is wrong.

But I sort of agree with Ciryx. I disagree that there's any "improvement" as he suggests. But if one looks at details out of context, it's well enough done. The combat- and skill systems works well and are well done. They are not, IMO, appropriate and I dislike them. They're nothing like what I want for gameplay in a cRPG, but as systems they're pretty well crafted. The rendition is also well done, if you want a 'cartoony' look. I hate the designs in the art style, but it's pretty well done. Finally, given how much new the game was, it's also impressive given the time constraints. Just consider the voiced dialogue for instance. Even the reused environments, the choice was to make the game shorter. Much shorter. As absurd as it sounds, I think M.L. made the right decision. Even if it's unforgivable and a pretty huge blemish on the game.
There's probably a huge chasm between me and M.L. when it comes to taste in games. But I do not really know that for sure, since I'm pretty convinced DA2's "new direction" was conceived by a EA/Bioware collective that made all kinds of flawed and failed market speculations.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 10 décembre 2011 - 08:34 .

[Mr.House]

Melca36 wrote...

Actually...Leliana did get the High Dragon in one of my Origins games.  

In DA:2...I would have just enjoyed seeing one of the other companions get the final kill. It got repetitive with Hawke getting them and sort of detracted from the story for me.

If Hawke was supposed to be so oridinary and basic and un-warden like....why did he or she always get the final kills?

Leli only get's one if you give her a blade, which is the problem. Only people with blades got the deathblows, the people that I rely on to protect my mage and archer are now stuck in a slow scene, yay

Also Fenris does do a deathblow on his final quest. So does Merrill.

[Ciryx]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Filament wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

deatharmonic--most of the boss fights in DAO were also multi-stage battles, they were just not as obvious about the stages. The broodmother, the archdemon, the high dragon, and even Branka all were multi-stage fights. Yes DAO did a better job of concealing those stages, but to say they were not there is false...just not as noticeable as DA2's.

That really depends on what you mean by multi-stage. If you mean just subtle changes to their tactics routines when their health is lower, maybe. If you mean having a stage where they fight one on one, then they fly onto a cliff and lob fireballs, or they jump on a wyvern, most of those examples you cited aren't anything like that. Archdemon is the only one to have those sorts of 'stages.' Granted, you didn't mention Harvester, which does too.

Broodmother does, at a certain health stage DS come from the side tunnels, at a lower health DS come from those side tunnels and a couple more...those are stages. Think back to those fights and you will recognize them. Branka at a certain health stage will spawn copies of herself. Granted the highdragon might not exactly fit those, but the others do have the stages.

These things dont change a thing for the player though. You keep punshing on branka. You keep punshing the broodmother. You never have to differ from your normal combat. 
And the Darkspawn @ broodmother are always there. :x

[RagingCyclone]

deatharmonic wrote...

Flashing Steel wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

deatharmonic--most of the boss fights in DAO were also multi-stage battles, they were just not as obvious about the stages. The broodmother, the archdemon, the high dragon, and even Branka all were multi-stage fights. Yes DAO did a better job of concealing those stages, but to say they were not there is false...just not as noticeable as DA2's.

You may want to re-read what he/she wrote, they never stated multiple stages were not there.

thank you sir 

If that is the case, and you did not mean that, then I apologize, but then perhaps this should have been reworded better:

deatharmonic wrote...

what about those who liked the boss fights in DAO more than DA2? Why are multiple stages to boss fights better?

[Melca36]

Mr.House wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Actually...Leliana did get the High Dragon in one of my Origins games.  

In DA:2...I would have just enjoyed seeing one of the other companions get the final kill. It got repetitive with Hawke getting them and sort of detracted from the story for me.

If Hawke was supposed to be so oridinary and basic and un-warden like....why did he or she always get the final kills?

Leli only get's one if you give her a blade, which is the problem. Only people with blades got the deathblows, the people that I rely on to protect my mage and archer are now stuck in a slow scene, yay

Also Fenris does do a deathblow on his final quest. So does Merrill.

True but look at the finishing moves the mage got in Awakenings.

I just don't want a game to be all cut scenes. I want a game with it.

They already said DA:3's combat will be different so I have faith it will appeal to all fanbases and not just one.  

[Mr.House]

Melca36 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Actually...Leliana did get the High Dragon in one of my Origins games.  

In DA:2...I would have just enjoyed seeing one of the other companions get the final kill. It got repetitive with Hawke getting them and sort of detracted from the story for me.

If Hawke was supposed to be so oridinary and basic and un-warden like....why did he or she always get the final kills?

Leli only get's one if you give her a blade, which is the problem. Only people with blades got the deathblows, the people that I rely on to protect my mage and archer are now stuck in a slow scene, yay

Also Fenris does do a deathblow on his final quest. So does Merrill.

True but look at the finishing moves the mage got in Awakenings.

I just don't want a game to be all cut scenes. I want a game with it.

They already said DA:3's combat will be different so I have faith it will appeal to all fanbases and not just one.  

The mage finishing move in DAO:A fails in comparison to osme mage Hawke does in DA2, also that was a cutscene in DAO:A, also DA2 was not all cutscenes.