343 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

vader da slayer wrote...

rubber banding my controller once I got an HMWP X + Frictionless Mats X and enough power cool down reduction to keep Marksman up 100% of the time wasn't very fun and made it so I never used powers either.

It amazes me how people willingly play a game in a way that's no fun to them and then complain about it.

[RoboticWater]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

rubber banding my controller once I got an HMWP X + Frictionless Mats X and enough power cool down reduction to keep Marksman up 100% of the time wasn't very fun and made it so I never used powers either.

It amazes me how people willingly play a game in a way that's no fun to them and then complain about it.

This expirament was done only to prove a point. It proved that ME 1's ammo system was easily exploitable.

I guess I can't vouch for the person who did this but reguardless of whether or not this was in fact an expirament people will always try to make the best weapon they can, even if it isn't fun. Once players make this weapon they either expect it to be a powerful balanced weapon that will seem powerful but not overpowered or they expect the enemies from then on to be more powerful.   

Modifié par BlahDog, 10 décembre 2011 - 10:42 .

[crimzontearz]

BlahDog wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

rubber banding my controller once I got an HMWP X + Frictionless Mats X and enough power cool down reduction to keep Marksman up 100% of the time wasn't very fun and made it so I never used powers either.

It amazes me how people willingly play a game in a way that's no fun to them and then complain about it.

This expirament was done only to prove a point. It proved that ME 1's ammo system was easily exploitable.

so is skyrim's Alchemy/Smithing/Enchanting system

point is you don't HAVE to unless you like it

[RoboticWater]

crimzontearz wrote...

so is skyrim's Alchemy/Smithing/Enchanting system

point is you don't HAVE to unless you like it

Skyrim has the excuse that is just too big to make anything too perfect (but if you head over to the Elder Scrolls forums there is usually an "overpowered" complaint thread anyway). ME 1 on the other hand is much more linear so there is no good reason for it to be so easily exploitable.

Modifié par BlahDog, 10 décembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Wulfram]

BlahDog wrote...

This expirament was done only to prove a point. It proved that ME 1's ammo system was easily exploitable.

Using frictionless materials to get constant fire isn't an exploit.  If anything, it's probably a suboptimal choice.  And marksman is too damn good, but that's only tangentially connected to the ammo system.

Anyway, in a normal playthrough by a non-completionist you won't encounter frictionless materials upgrades until late in the game.

[crimzontearz]

BlahDog wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

so is skyrim's Alchemy/Smithing/Enchanting system

point is you don't HAVE to unless you like it

Skyrim has the excuse that is just too big to make anything too perfect (but if you head over to the Elder Scrolls forums there is usually an "overpowered" complaint thread anyway). ME 1 on the other hand is much more linear so there is no good reason for it to be so easily exploitable.

you are kidding right??

I can max out enchanting + smithing + alchemy in the very second city I find in Skyrim. By the end of it  I have 60 000 gold and legendary daedric weapons and armor and plow through the whoooooole game scot free and that is without looping anything since anything above 570 of armor class still gives you 80% damage reduction and nothing more

seriously..you DO NOT have to do it unless YOU find it fun 

Modifié par crimzontearz, 10 décembre 2011 - 10:58 .

[RoboticWater]

Wulfram wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

This expirament was done only to prove a point. It proved that ME 1's ammo system was easily exploitable.

Using frictionless materials to get constant fire isn't an exploit.  If anything, it's probably a suboptimal choice.  And marksman is too damn good, but that's only tangentially connected to the ammo system.

Anyway, in a normal playthrough by a non-completionist you won't encounter frictionless materials upgrades until late in the game.

Using frictionless materials is an exploit, you are using something to gain an advantage. And, suboptimal? How can unending bullets be "suboptimal".  
Also it doesn't matter when you get these mods, all that matters is the fact that they make the game exceedingly easy.  

[RoboticWater]

crimzontearz wrote...



you are kidding right??

I can max out enchanting + smithing + alchemy in the very seconf city I find in Skyrim. By the end of it  I have 60 000 gold and legendary daedric weapons and plow through the whoooooole game scot free and that is without looping anything since anything above 570 of armor class still gives you 80% damage reduction and nothing more

seriously..you DO NOT have to do it unless YOU find it fun 

Yes, I fully understand that smithing is overpowered but Skyrim is based off the fact that you can do anything you want, even if it's run around the whole game wearing nothing but boots and punching things into submission. ME doesn't pride itself on such choice in player combat. Skyrim gives you everything up front so it's all on you if you are overpowered. on the other hand, ME is linear when it comes to combat in respect to the progression in which you get mods so its entirely the game's fault if you become overpowered. 

Modifié par BlahDog, 10 décembre 2011 - 11:03 .

[crimzontearz]

BlahDog wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...



you are kidding right??

I can max out enchanting + smithing + alchemy in the very seconf city I find in Skyrim. By the end of it  I have 60 000 gold and legendary daedric weapons and plow through the whoooooole game scot free and that is without looping anything since anything above 570 of armor class still gives you 80% damage reduction and nothing more

seriously..you DO NOT have to do it unless YOU find it fun 

Yes, I fully understand that smithing is overpowered but Skyrim is based off the fact that you can do anything you want, even if it's run around the whole game wearing nothing but boots and punching things into submission. ME doesn't pride itself on such choice in player combat. Skyrim gives you everything up front so it is all on you if you are overpowered  ME is linear when it comes to combat in respect to the progression in which you get mods so its entirely the game's fault if you become overpowered. 

focus on story or open world has nothing to do with exploits that can make the combat hilariously easy.

Mass Effect is linear in combat but the ONLY way to get better gear (including X mods) is to actually play the game and level up to get better drops which means you really are overpowered only after the second or third playthrough. With that in mind the choice on using those mods (or keep the old shield bypassing ones for instance) is on you as well just as the choice to exploit smithing enchanting anf alchemy is on you in skyrim

[Wulfram]

BlahDog wrote...


Using frictionless materials is an exploit, you are using something to gain an advantage.

Using something as designed to create an expected advantage is not an exploit.  Constant Marksman and Constant Immunity is probably an exploit - I don't think that was intended, though who knows?  ME1 is horribly unbalanced all around at high levels.

And, suboptimal? How can unending bullets be "suboptimal".

When you'd do more damage and be a more effective combatant if you picked different mods.  Really, you're going to want to stop firing eventually, if not because you need to get into cover then because your target is dead, so what are you gaining by giving yourself unending bullets?

Also it doesn't matter when you get these mods, all that matters is the fact that they make the game exceedingly easy. 

If a system works well for most of the game and only breaks down at the end because of a specific item, that suggests the flaw isn't in the system but in the it

Anyway, it's not frictionless materials which make the end game easy.  It's Marksman, Immunity and various other things.

[jtrook]

Mclouvins wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Overheat. Keep an eye on the meter, or put the right upgrades on your weapon and life is sweet.

Frictionless matierals X and a taped down fire button/key does not make for good gameplay.

I use to use thermal clips but then I took an arrow to the knee.

[RoboticWater]

crimzontearz wrote...

focus on story or open world has nothing to do with exploits that can make the combat hilariously easy.

Mass Effect is linear in combat but the ONLY way to get better gear (including X mods) is to actually play the game and level up to get better drops which means you really are overpowered only after the second or third playthrough. With that in mind the choice on using those mods (or keep the old shield bypassing ones for instance) is on you as well just as the choice to exploit smithing enchanting anf alchemy is on you in skyrim

It is on you in both games but ME the dev cycle is: kill enemy, get mod, bad-sell, good-use, or in the case of ME 1's horrid inventory system-give up on looking for good mods in your backpack, repeat. Once you get in this cycle you are likely to realize that frictionless materials are good and then you are likely to replace your current mods. But given the chance most people will sacrifice fun for power. If a game allows a choice to make the game not fun  then it is the game's fault.  

[RoboticWater]

Wulfram wrote...

BlahDog wrote...


Using frictionless materials is an exploit, you are using something to gain an advantage.

Using something as designed to create an expected advantage is not an exploit.  Constant Marksman and Constant Immunity is probably an exploit - I don't think that was intended, though who knows?  ME1 is horribly unbalanced all around at high levels.

An expected advanage is not one that makes the rest of the game a breeze.

When you'd do more damage and be a more effective combatant if you picked different mods.  Really, you're going to want to stop firing eventually, if not because you need to get into cover then because your target is dead, so what are you gaining by giving yourself unending bullets?

Most enemies go down in one burst even with a damage enhancing mod especially when these mods increase heat output. 

If a system works well for most of the game and only breaks down at the end because of a specific item, that suggests the flaw isn't in the system but in the it

Anyway, it's not frictionless materials which make the end game easy.  It's Marksman, Immunity and various other things.

True, but the system has many other flaws including this exploit so it is in our favor to mention this issue. If you want to see those arguments refer to earlier posts.

In my opinion shooting forever made things very easy but we all have our own. 

Modifié par BlahDog, 10 décembre 2011 - 11:29 .

[crimzontearz]

Bull****. Both games give you the option of using game breaking items/loops/exploits and you can choose not to. In Skyrim you have to grind for hours to get that king of gear...in ME1 you have to run a few NG+ to get those mods

it's the same situation

[RoboticWater]

crimzontearz wrote...

Bull****. Both games give you the option of using game breaking items/loops/exploits and you can choose not to. In Skyrim you have to grind for hours to get that king of gear...in ME1 you have to run a few NG+ to get those mods

it's the same situation

In Skyrim you are inclined to do whatever you want and the game holds nothing back in respect to your ability to do things. If you feel like buying a ton of iron bars, make a bunch of iron objects, and sell them back until your speech and smithing skills are 100 you can. In ME1 the game holds mods until later, giving the impression that the later mods you get are better. There is no reason to think the mods you had at the beginning of the game are any better than the ones you get later so there is no reason not to switch to the newer mods. The average gamer will most likely not switch back to their previous mods because they have been trained not to do so. Sure, you can change your mods back to their weak state but in ME, a linear-combat game, it is the responsibilty of the game to fix this for you. 

Modifié par BlahDog, 11 décembre 2011 - 12:20 .

[Loup Blanc]

I much prefer the infinite ammo with overheat.

[crimzontearz]

BlahDog wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bull****. Both games give you the option of using game breaking items/loops/exploits and you can choose not to. In Skyrim you have to grind for hours to get that king of gear...in ME1 you have to run a few NG+ to get those mods

it's the same situation

In Skyrim you are inclined to do whatever you want and the game holds nothing back in respect to your ability to do things. If you feel like buying a ton of iron bars, make a bunch of iron objects, and sell them back until your speech and smithing skills are 100 you can. In ME1 the game holds mods until later, giving the impression that the later mods you get are better. There is no reason to think the mods you had at the beginning of the game are any better than the ones you get later so there is no reason not to switch to the newer mods. The average gamer will most likely not switch back to their previous mods because they have been trained not to do so. Sure, you can change your mods back to their weak state but in ME, a linear-combat game, it is the responsibilty of the game to fix this for you. 

the average gamer will also NOT run 3 NG+ to actually GET to those mods and will call it quits at level what 35  - 40?you have the choice to do whatewver the hell you want in ME1 as well just because combat ismore centric does not change the way some exploit can break it

[Epic777]

Luc0s wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

Ammo is way better the overheating. Here's why
A. Reloading is fun. Gives you the sense of operating a real gun.

If I want to shoot a real gun, I'll go to the range. If I'm playing a game, I don't need perfect realism anymore than I need a mini-game to clean my gun after use to reduce my malfunction chances the next time I use it.

The ammo mechanic on ME 2 was pretty terrible. Consider the claymore shotgun. The reload mechanics make the damn thing essentially unusable in close combat, since any action will interupt the reload animation leaving you with a club.

This is supposed to be realistic? A WW 1 trench shotgun would be more useful. And I could carry more ammo.

Maybe if you didn't suck so much in ME2 you'd realize the Claymore is incredibly over-powered in it's curren't state, ESPECIALLY in close combat.
I really destroyed everything and everyone with that BEAST of a gun on my Vanguard playthrough on Insanity.

To add to this. The claymore is one of the few weapons I consider overpowered for lower level play (normal and veteran). Your better off with the the scimitar at lower level. 

[Bluko]

BlahDog wrote...

If Bioware called TCs ammo then we would have people complaining how they blatantly switched between the two systems with no regard to the lore at all. At least Bioware tried to make something beleivable to the fiction when they changed an integral part of gameplay. The lore has established the fact that weapons give off heat and need to cool, clips are heat sinks and cool the gun faster. It's a decent excuse one that beats "oh yea the guns use batteries now".

I don't see why guns actually using their ammunition would be such a horrible thing. To be honest I always found it a bit silly guns had essentially limitless ammunition. IMO it would have been better if guns had like oh say 10,000 rounds back in ME1. So yeah it would have been unlikely you'd run out of ammunition, but it could happen. At which point you should have to pick up an ammo block (Omni-Gel?) to continue spraying.

I don't doubt people would still complain about ammo being incorporated. But Thermal Clips are a very poor "band-aid" and the way they are implemented in the game doesn't even fit their description. I mean why do Thermal Clips make it impossible for your gun to continue firing even if they run out? Why aren't Thermal Clips actually universal?

Here's the retcon I would have given in the codex for the explanation of an ammo system:

After the attack on the Citadel by the Geth in 2183  the Alliance began a systematic re-evaluation of all currently existing armaments in use. One outstanding issue noted by Alliance Soldiers was the usage of especially powerful Kinetic Barriers by the Geth and Mercenary Forces employed by former Spectre Saren. Soldiers that had fought against the Geth had found it necessary to sustain fire on single targets for protracted periods of time, often to the point where their weapons risked heat malfunctions.

The ever increasing protection offered by Kinetic Barriers by the time of the Eden Prime War had rendered many small arms all but ineffective. The Alliance thus began a program specifically to find a means to increase the damage inflicted by mass accelerator weaponry. After several weeks of reserach, in conjuncture with many prominent small arms manufacturers , the Alliance had made a breakthrough. Experts had found that by increasing the size of slugs shaved from core ammunition blocks, that that the force imparted against protective elements, such as Kinetic Barriers and Armor, could be drastically increased.

A single shot from a sufficiently large weapon could now bring down most Kinetic Barriers fielded by infantry units. Even amongst smaller firearms the increase in damage was noticeably appreciated. The usage of larger and fewer rounds also reduced heat issues to the point of being non-existent as most of the heat generated by weaponry had come from the prolonged firing of thousands of rounds per minute. However this increased damage and heat efficiency came at the cost of using weapon amunnition at a dratically higher rate. Soldiers would no longer be able to rely on single ammo block for most engagements.

In an effort to compensate for this deficiency weapons now carry several small ammo blocks that can easily be reloaded in a few seconds by any trained soldier. Although this increased usage of ammunition left many skeptical at first, it soon became apparent galaxy wide that the ability to quickly and efficiently put down an enemy was superior to maintaining large ammo reserves. By 2184 nearly all armed forces in the galaxy from the Turian Hierarchy to the Mercenaries in the Terminus Systems had adopted this new weapon development.

BlahDog wrote...

How do TCs degrade the series? Would you prefer that ammo be some cliche energy cell thing that was copy-pasted from every other sci-fi game? Replacing the ammo system is such a small part of the lore, it has almost no influence over the stoy and certainly not in the amount of influence you seem to beleive it does. No pivotal part of the story is going to hinge on having too little ammo or having your gun overheat.

No I do not want "Energy Cells" or "Batteries". Although you may have noticed Heavy Weapons used "Power Cells" in Mass Effect 2 which is generally speaking just as bad as your examples. Why Heavy Weapons don't just each have their own form of ammunition is beyond me as you rarely (and probably shouldn't) have the opportunity to resupply them.

Do Thermal Clips effect the main story of the series? No not really. (Though it already effects quite a bit of dialogue.) But Thermal Clips definently impede on some of the more minute details of the universe. Good for you if doesn't bother you, if you really don't care I'm not sure what you're concerned about to begin with other then that you're afraid ME3 would be remade exactly like ME1 again. (Not going to happen and not what most of us are asking for.) However for some of us this "minor detail" does more harm then good and it's unfortunate that it will likely persist to the point where weapons in Mass Effect have always used Thermal Clips. So essentially what ME1 and some of the Books presented us will in time be "wrong".

[crimzontearz]

Luc0s wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bull****. Both games give you the option of using game breaking items/loops/exploits and you can choose not to. In Skyrim you have to grind for hours to get that king of gear...in ME1 you have to run a few NG+ to get those mods

it's the same situation

I don't know what kind of version of Skyrim you're playing, but in my Skyrim, I got full Daedric armor (best armor in the game, period) within a couple of hours with my character on lvl 17.


Really, there is no such thing as grinding in Skyrim. You're totally talking out of your arse here.

right but in order to have the MAX legendary Daedric armor and weapons (yes, the armor that gives you 1300+ Armor class and the weapons that cause 500+ damage per swing) you have to max out both alchemy and enchanting as well so it takes quite a bit longer my friend. To get those it took me.....MMMMM........2 days playing 8 hours or so a day?

[crimzontearz]

Luc0s wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bull****. Both games give you the option of using game breaking items/loops/exploits and you can choose not to. In Skyrim you have to grind for hours to get that king of gear...in ME1 you have to run a few NG+ to get those mods

it's the same situation

I don't know what kind of version of Skyrim you're playing, but in my Skyrim, I got full Daedric armor (best armor in the game, period) within a couple of hours with my character on lvl 17.


Really, there is no such thing as grinding in Skyrim. You're totally talking out of your arse here.

right but in order to have the MAX legendary Daedric armor and weapons (yes, the armor that gives you 1300+ Armor class and the weapons that cause 500+ damage per swing) you have to max out both alchemy and enchanting as well so it takes quite a bit longer my friend. To get those it took me.....MMMMM........2 days playing 8 hours or so a day?

Those are game-breaking that aren't even supposed to be in the game. You can only get those by exploiting the fact that enchanting and alchemy don't have a cap (even though they should).

I was talking about the regular non-game-breaking Daedric armor upgraded to 'legendary' without using exploits.

It took me only 1 hour to max smithing and 2 hours later I got myself a nice set of legendary Daedric armor. From that point on, Skyrim is a cakewalk, even on Expert (haven't tried Master yet).

I'm playing a Thief character now. Much more challenging. ;-)


But yeah, same sh*t with Mass Effect. You can easily get the frictionless materials pretty early on that allows you to spam your guns (almost) unlimited.


Anyway, to get to the point: I hate such game-breaking designs. In my opinion it's bad game-design, terribly bad game-design. Mass Effect 2 is much better designed, and cannot be exploited. That is good game-design.

actually my friend it IS capped

Enchanting has a 29% on both alchemy and smithing cap and Alchemy has a 32% cap on enchanting .. fortify smithing potions have a 130% cap (for 30 seconds) regardless of the previously stacked bonuses (even if they tell you a higher percentage)

the cap is there, set by the devs.......