78 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadooow]

SHOVA wrote...

 If there is indeed content in the patch that the creator does not want used, then it shouldn't be used.

Afaik none of the content I used from other builders was restricted. I also tried in most cases contact original author and ask him if I can reuse his content. (But it is true I sometimes forget (AD emote icons) or I didn't asked because the content consisted of know-how and anyone could fix it once he knew what was broken (thats for example exactly the case of The Krit Craft Magic Fixes). In one case (Project Q two tileset fixes) I had not given answer if I may or not, so I actually re-created their fixes on my own as when they pointed out what was broken (texture) I could fix it on my own. But in all cases I credited original author.


Tren of Twilight Tower: at download page there is a TXT file with brief description of what is there. For NWN expert and builders there is more detailed description for download (1.70 documentation.zip) but that assume a certain level of knowledge as I didnt explained whats broken only how I fixed/changed it.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 15 décembre 2011 - 07:06 .

[SHOVA]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Afaik none of the content I used from other builders was restricted. I also tried in most cases contact original author and ask him if I can reuse his content. (But it is true I sometimes forget (AD emote icons) or I didn't asked because the content consisted of know-how and anyone could fix it once he knew what was broken (thats for example exactly the case of The Krit Craft Magic Fixes). In one case (Project Q two tileset fixes) I had not given answer if I may or not, so I actually re-created their fixes on my own as when they pointed out what was broken (texture) I could fix it on my own. But in all cases I credited original author.

This may start something, but it needs to be said. Just because CC doesn't have a "Do not recombine this with other CC, and do not resubmit it, fix it, or repackage it" does not give anyone the go ahead to do it. I commend you for trying to get authorization from the original CC author. However before you uploaded anything from them, you should have gotten the authorization, or refrained from using their work. If the CC was important enough to add, and authorization could not be obtained, You should have remade it, or found someone to remake it from scratch. that IMHO, is the only way to avoid authorship "problems" from happening.

Kail has made a accusation. If you used any of Kails work, you should probably remove it from your patch. If Kail is upset that others gave permision, thats on Kail. Certainly no one with a brain would support his claim, when you can prove authorization. You have however stated that you did not get permision from every CC author you repackaged content from, and that is, and does, make it suspect at what is in the patch, is it with the Creators blessing, or is it a rip off that is going to come back and bite later. 

If you do not agree with my opinion on this, I ask you, if I downloaded your patch, went in and changed a few lines of code, made an adjustment to the textures, and re-uploaded it as the community patch 1.73, would you be happy? Probably not. I am sure you would be yelling as loud as you could, especially if I forgot to get your authorization before hand. 

[Shadooow]

SHOVA wrote...

If you do not agree with my opinion on this, I ask you,

I don't agree, the issue is elsewhere.

I didn't added anything from Kail, and 95% of work I added from others can be easily recreated like already mentioned The Krits Craft Magic Fixes which is in fact a collection of twenty 2DA changes that takes about 5minutes of work. Even familiar/animal companions could be easily remade if I didn't get permission but in this case I get permission from Ben Harrison and BCH.

Also I couldn't wait for users whose are already gone from NWN like kurairyu to give me permission, they are simply gone and no longer cares about NWN as far as I know.

if I downloaded your patch, went in and changed a few lines of code,
made an adjustment to the textures, and re-uploaded it as the community
patch 1.73, would you be happy? Probably not. I am sure you would be
yelling as loud as you could, especially if I forgot to get your
authorization before hand.

Well I restricted my own content in Patch (scrolls, trap (item), projectile trap(projectile) blueprints, all spellscripts and other scripts etc.) from being resubmitted but IN FACT - my entire purpose ofcreating this wasn't to get famous of what, I just wanted to create a new standard that community will be happy to use like it would be official (community patches are actually quite common for legacy games). SO if this project fail to achieve this and someone else will take my work and he does achieve this goal with his own Patch or whatever I won't mind as long as he gives me credits.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 15 décembre 2011 - 10:07 .

[SHOVA]

Sorry, but easily recreated, does not translate to I can use it without permission. If indeed it is easily done, then you should have done it rather than opening yourself and project to accusations. Even if the original author has long gone. The fact that you restricted your own content shows you do have feelings on your work being used/resubmitted without your say so. What your intent was doesn't matter, if you did not obtain the original authors permission.

Kail accusations are confirmed from your own posts ShaDo0oW, you have repackaged content from others, without permission. I can not use your patch, or recommend it to others. I will also inform the vault that it contains others work who may not want it resubmitted, should you put it there for download. The reason is simple, Your name is the one that comes up with this project, not the Original authors, even though you added credits as a secondary DL. You can argue however much you wish, but you have admitted to using the work of others without their consent. Sure it may be a simple 2da edit, or a simple line change in a script, but next time, it might well be animations, or sounds, or models. Once you steal, even with giving credit, its all the easier to steal the next time. What message does that give to all the new players, builders and future CC makers ShaDo0oW? go ahead and make stuff so someone else can repost it? is that the Community you want to create for? it certainly isn't what I would be proud to be a part of.

[wyldhunt1]

After reading all of this, I think I have to be on ShaDoOow's side on this one.
He says he never used anything of Kail's. He gives full credit for the contents. He tries to ask first unless it's something easily reproducible, and even then he gives credit.
Think of it this way:
Let's say I figure out a way to change a few 2da lines and fix a major bug.
I post that fix on the vault.
That fix is now public knowledge and everyone is going to change those 2da lines.
Does it really matter if ShaDoOow uses the fixed 2da in the download instead of copy/pasting those lines into an empty 2da to reproduce it?
It's the exact same thing. There is no artistic skill that may be lost or gained from the reproduction.
The reason the authors deserve credit (Which ShaDoOow gives them) is because they were the ones smart enough to figure it out.
Once that knowledge is public, it is not a matter of "Did you steal my 2da?" Everyone's 2da's will be the same because they all have the same knowledge. It is a matter of giving credit to the smart person who figured it out. Not the files themselves.
 
The exception would be model/texture/etc stuff where artistic talent can make the end result different when reproduced.
ShaDoOow has said that in those cases, he has reproduced them himself or gotten permission (With an exception he admits to and, I assume, must be worked out because AD isn't here complaining.)

Modifié par wyldhunt1, 15 décembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[SHOVA]

Stealing is stealing.
I do not condone stealing, nor do I support it.
There is no amount of argument that you can give to change my mind, I learned as a child Stealing is wrong, Period. Sure not everyone feels the same way, perhaps that is why the world is a mess right now. As to did ShaDo0oW steal, borrowed or whatever, I am leaning more to a repackaging of others work, added with his own. A dangerous slope, with CC, here, due to the huge fiasco from a few years back. Those who were not here for it, people got mad, some left. At this point in NWN life, we can not afford to loose more CC makers. So I would rather not support suspect submissions, then drive another one away. ShaDo0oW, confirmed that there is an exception as you call it wyldhunt1,
ShaDo0oW wrote:
Also I couldn't wait for users whose are already gone from NWN like kurairyu to give me permission, they are simply gone and no longer cares about NWN as far as I know.

Kurairyu, made the PC wonderful hands.

[wyldhunt1]

I think we may paint our lines at different spots.
 
By your logic, wikipedia.org could never exist. It is all just a compilation of others works. Those others are given credit at the bottom of the page with a link to their research or article. It is not expected that every one of those people get asked permission to incorporate their research in to a public work. That would be silly. I think the same is true for most of the fixes in this patch. As long as it is available for public use, it should be assumed that the public will use it. Just give credit where credit is due.
 
I also think it would be unnecessarily limiting to the community as a whole if no one was ever allowed to do anything at all with any community contributions from anyone after they leave the community and are no longer available.
I know that if I submitted some Hall of Fame contribution to the vault and then left to do something else, I would be upset if I found out that everyone stopped using my submission that I'd worked so hard on because everyone was afraid to update it to the newest patch version in my absence.
ShaDoOow is not stealing anything. He is giving full credits for everything that he includes.
If you can show me evidence of a content creator asking ShaDoOow to remove their content and him refusing to remove their content, then I'll agree with you.
Until then, you'd have to ban every combo-hak on the vault.
I guarantee that very very few of those "All in One Head Pack" authors asked every head modeler on the vault before they combined them all. That's true of nearly every combo hak and every PW custom hak.
I think that ShaDoOow has given a reasonable effort to credit authors, and ask permission.

Modifié par wyldhunt1, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:01 .

[henesua]

You are stepping over the line, Shova. Be careful. What Shadow has done is not stealing by any definition of the term.

(1) All parts of the community patch are in the public domain.
(2) All of the community contributions in this work appear to have been attributed to the original authors.

So there are no rights that are being infringed upon here. Nor is there anything that is being stolen - certainly not credit for this work.

If you are concerned about community unity, I highly recommend backing off. Nothing in your tirade here is constructive, nor is relevant to this project. It is however becoming increasingly inflamatory, as you appear to be implying that Shadooow stole other's work.

[Frith5]

On the subject of ShaDoOw's work, I say bravo to the guy, for at least trying to assemble and release all this stuff. I am always on the side of those who give, and rarely on the side of those who worry too much about someone 'taking' their stuff. I totally respect ANYONE who does want to try to restrict their stuff. Completely. It's just not me.

Way to go, ShaDoOw! Thanks for your work!

Regards,
JFK

edited after a bit of thought...

Modifié par Frith5, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[SHOVA]

Wyldhunt1, you don't have to ban every combo hak on the vault, only the ones who added others content without permission, and yes there are a lot of them, and no I do not use them.
henesua my tirade is not inflammatory, neither is my position on what is stealing. Shado0oW has responded that he did not get every CC authors permission to use the CC in his patch. He posted that that non permission content goes further than a 2da edit, or a script line. its actual textures, which Wyldhunt1 even said crossed the line. I believe it is wrong to do so. I believe he can either A, obtain the permission to use it, or B, remove it without effecting his patch, thereby ending any possible complaint from anyone, or C ignore it, use it, and get the fallout from it. C is happening now, Kail accused him of stealing, I happen to think it isn't something I want to use, and certainly won't recommend.

[Vibrant Penumbra]

Edit: oops! Did I say that?

Sooooorry. 

Modifié par Vibrant Penumbra, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:14 .

[henesua]

SHOVA, you are acting in a mean spirited manner. You are incapable of justifying these claims of "stealing" because there has been no theft. You are creating a problem where there were none. I suggest that you desist from harassing shadooow.

Great project, Shadoow, as I have said before. I am sorry that others would rather tear you down, than support your efforts. I do appreciate what you have done. Thank you.

[HipMaestro]

Geez... this old argument again?  The debate continues to attract vastly polar opinions, which is actually a GOOD thing.  Makes the blood flow through those portions of the cerebrum that have been starving for oxygenation for some time.

But to be frank... ALL community content could be considered stealing, if you chose to view it that way.  Its end product all stemmed from Bioware designers' framework.  No one has invented a database dynamic to replace 2das so just using them is "borrowing" (notice how I just morphed the interpretation?) intellectual property from the owners.  I also don't see anyone rebuilding all the Bioware-developed scripting from scratch.  I mean every piece of script, not just those that have some technical appeal.

The internet itself is based on copying and reproducing without obtaining official permission. Just look around you.  Upholding copyrights is an ongoing battle, essentially because it is gradually being defined by a legal system and one that holds no true claims to internationality.  But I digress...

Now, I think it is a COURTESY to ask permission of an author to gain some so-called "official" license to use their offerings for another purpose.  Some claim that it is, rather, a REQUIREMENT based on the Vault guidelines (surprised no one has reposted them in this thread yet *lol*).  As in most matters, rules are constantly open to interpretation and we have courts to help mitigate disputes of this nature.  Apparently the Vault rules have transcended normal social ethics and established some sort of absolute.  Interesting.  No statute of limitations. I guess the licensing agreement lasts until infinity (or at least until the site closes down).

Personally, if/when I ever submit to the Vault anything remotely based on anyone else's work, I would take all measures that are practical and pragmatic in contacting the original owners to get TIMELY input, in keeping with the view (my own, naturally) that we are probably witnessing the last gasps of the game's energy today and would seek to expedite the process before the end comes.  Many contributors have already moved on to other goals in their lives and in so doing they have broken the licensing chain by becoming unreachable and thereby yielding their authorship veto power (if there really is such a thing).   They should have appointed power of attorney before leaving.  It's relatively inexpensive. Any legal assistant can process the paperwork. No appointment necessary.

If nothing else, at least there will be an historical record of ShaDoOoW's fine work while the b*tching continues.  Ain't life grand?   Huzzah!

Modifié par HipMaestro, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:15 .

[SHOVA]

henesua wrote...

SHOVA, you are acting in a mean spirited manner. You are incapable of justifying these claims of "stealing" because there has been no theft. You are creating a problem where there were none. I suggest that you desist from harassing shadooow.

Great project, Shadoow, as I have said before. I am sorry that others would rather tear you down, than support your efforts. I do appreciate what you have done. Thank you.

Since you are not here, can't see me and do not know me, you have no idea what manner I am posting in.
Theft, stealing, or borrowing is not something I do. That is not mean spirited, that is fact.
Using others work, without permission, in the case here, re-submitting it combined with other work, may not be what the original author intended. That author may well call it stealing, but since they are not here, their feelings on it do not matter.
That can be called theft, stealing or it can be ignored. It all depends on you own moral sense. Some of this community do not believe that Repackaging of work without permission should happen.
When its ignored it can cause tension. 
Because of past instances of that very thing, we have lost CC creators. 

None of the above is harrassment. Now henesua, I suggest you drop telling me what I should do. As you are not helping the situation, mearly trolling it.

[henesua]

That is not theft by any definition.

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Ughhh. There's always one little nitwit spoiling to ruin things. Shova if anyone here is trolling it's YOU. If 1.70 is "stealing" any of YOUR content simply say so and I have no doubt Shadow will happily remove it. Otherwise STFU and mind your own business. Nobody here appointed you sheriff.

Great work shadow. Posting this as priority news on NeverwinterConnections.com.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Shadooow]

wyldhunt1 wrote...

It's the exact same thing. There is no artistic skill that may be lost or gained from the reproduction.
The reason the authors deserve credit (Which ShaDoOow gives them) is because they were the ones smart enough to figure it out.
Once that knowledge is public, it is not a matter of "Did you steal my 2da?" Everyone's 2da's will be the same because they all have the same knowledge. It is a matter of giving credit to the smart person who figured it out. Not the files themselves.

Yes thats exacty how I see it myself.

The exception would be model/texture/etc stuff where artistic talent can make the end result different when reproduced.
ShaDoOow
has said that in those cases, he has reproduced them himself or gotten
permission (With an exception he admits to and, I assume, must be worked
out because AD isn't here complaining.)

For this stuff, the really custom work, I am willing to remove it if original author contact me he don't want his content to appear in this project. But really there isn't much of it. Due to the project focus, almost everything can be recreated very easily once you know what was broken. The restrictions I have set up are there just to secure that this project won't get swallowed by other similar compilation like CEP since the focuses of both projects are completely different. Of course, this doesn't apply for new submissions with intent to fix a bug in community patch, or change Patch behavior. I also don't for example demand any credits for any custom usage of my new spell engine I created - that would be really silly. You can freely use, rename, modify and even resubmit (if modified) my spell engine (that is 70_inc_spells library) in your custom content even without need to use or credit Patch 1.70 Project, provided you don't claim its your work.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:51 .

[The Amethyst Dragon]

My 2 cents on the emote icons:  Others can put them into their own haks, so long as credit is given for the original work (I also appreciate comments, feedback, and sometimes votes on stuff I've made that other people have used)...which has been done in this case.

I also don't mind them being included because it's a change that can only improve on the default GUI.  The default emote radials all have the same uninformative icon and you can only tell them apart by holding the mouse over each one (unless you've memorized all of them by position).  Alterations by the community are also the reason the folks at BioWare made some alterations to the file naming for them in the last official patch.   I wouldn't want my spell, feat, class or DM icons included, because I think the rest of the GUI should really be up to the personal preference (and override folder) of each player.

As far as the other contributions from the community, I see credits are given and are pretty easy to locate for those interested.  I think if an html page or document were included with hyperlinks to the Vault page (when possible) for every source, it might smooth things over a little.  I'd even copy the links and add them to the little "patch 1.70" page that's on neverwinternights.info.

[SHOVA]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Ughhh. There's always one little nitwit spoiling to ruin things. Shova if anyone here is trolling it's YOU. If 1.70 is "stealing" any of YOUR content simply say so and I have no doubt Shadow will happily remove it. Otherwise STFU and mind your own business. Nobody here appointed you sheriff.

Great work shadow. Posting this as priority news on NeverwinterConnections.com.

and no one appointed you forum moderator. 
And I never said he was stealing. I said those who actual made the stuff in his patch who did not get asked for permission might feel that he was.
perhaps if you had read my postings and understood them, you would know that.
Shadow posted he used CC without consent
I posted I would not use his patch without it. I still see no reason to use it. My opinion, is just as relevent as yours URK, or anyone elses who doesn't agree. 

[Pstemarie]

OMG...do you really have any idea what you sound like? "Waaa...blah...blah...someone might think he stole something...waaa...waaa...I never said this....blah....blah....my opinions irrelevant and so's yours since it doesn't agree with mine...<more whining>.

How hard is it to just say I'm not using something? Quite frankly who gives a rats arse what you use or don't use? I don't care, I'm sure ShaDoOoW doesn't care, and its pretty safe to say that three quarters of the Community doesn't care.

Pretty sad when personal issues are aired in a not so veiled attempt to recruit people to your cause.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 16 décembre 2011 - 03:01 .

[SHOVA]

Right, No one cares what I use, or not.I do however find what one of the "contributors" posted on the vault submission, enlightening.

The Krit
Here is my evaluation for those thinking about downloading this.
Pros:
* This project contains a large number of bug fixes and enhancements.
* It makes the game work as Shadooow wants it to work.

Cons:
* It uses .bifs for content.
(Unlike most custom content, this Vault entry cannot be removed by simply deleting its files. Instead, a critical rebuild is required.)
* It is monolithic
(There is no easy way to exclude changes someone might find objectionable. While "monolithic" is not a problem with smaller projects, it is a drawback for a project of this scale, unless you fully trust the content developer.)
* It renders some spells uncastable when playing on a server that does not have this Vault entry installed.
(I checked Invisibility Purge. Also affected should be Healing Circle, Fire Storm, and Storm of Vengeance. Similarly, those spells should be uncastable by players without this installed if they are playing on a server with it.)
* It makes the game work as Shadooow wants it to work.
(The decision as to what was "balanced for all kinds of environments and game types" and "to make sense" was made by Shadooow and reflects a large number of conclusions I personally find nonsensical. Your mileage may vary.)

Overall:
If you like all the changes in this package, it might be for you. If you are not sure, it probably is not. It definitely is not something I want on my computer. It is not all bad, but the parts that I do not like are enough for me to pass on the whole package.

Special notes:
I find it extremely odd for Shadooow to be quoting himself in this entry's description. It makes me think he is trying to delude people into thinking this entry is more than his personal compilation of enhancements.

I am listed as one of the "Community Patch contributors", which can be misleading since I have contributed nothing to this entry specifically. Some of my work is in it, but the work was contributed to the community at large. I do not object to my work being incorporated into this project (I did release it for people to use after all), but any inference that I endorse this project is wrong.

Rating based on:
6 - Good, Qualified Recommendation
4 - Some Merit, Requires Improvements

[Pstemarie]

Sorry, can't see the "enlightening" aspect of anything in what The Krit posted on the Vault page for ShaDoOoW's patch. What I see is a simple case of ESL definition confusion - that is to say that ShaDoOoW (for whom English is a second language) obviously understands the definition of contribution differently than Americans do.

See, anyone can look at something and interpret it how they wish. Since The Krit had issue with being listed as a "contributor" he should have contacted ShaDoOoW and said "Dude, WTF, I'm not a contributor" and given ShaDoOoW a chance to resolve the issue.

[SHOVA]

Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.
Pstemarie I find your lack of understanding on how dangerous resubmitting of work is, due to how it was the Q team who started the conversation/uproar in the first place. While you may not agree with it, if I were to resubmit project Q content in a new hak set, without so much as I am going to use it, and did a credit list, as a read me, you would be the first one flipping out. But don't take my word for it, take Qs
Project Q will make available some of our artwork for public distribution every major release, however, unless you have received approval to do so by the original artist, Q cannot grant the right to distribute our material to others. It is an agreement we make with people submitting art to us, to prevent them from losing control over their own works.
"from the project q webpage:
People wishing to use art from Q in their own personal haks will have to make a request. Our email is projectq [at] qnwn.net. Most requests will be approved. "
Just to be clear Pstemarie, we are talking artwork here, in ShaDo0oWs patch, not just 2da edits, or scripting lines. Saying its ok,from a Q team member, is at least hypocritical, and at most the stupidest thing you have ever posted, should you wish to keep the info listed on the Q faq page true. But, hey I am just whining, and no one cares anyway.

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Shova I have been reading your posts. You have no first hand knowledge of anyone feeling like their content has been "stolen", yet you're raving on in a fit of self righteousness and calling shadow a thief when all he's done is spend untold hours of his time combining community content into a single cohesive package that fixes a LOT of NWN's loose ends. He's asking nothing in return. He's carefully attributed everyones work (a huge job in and of itself, BTW). He's done NOTHING wrong and you're giving him a hard time about something that hasn't even happened.

What the hell does project Q have to do with anything? The've made their feelings about their content perfectly clear and as a community we've respected that. Most of us don't use Q for exactly that reason. But that's not what's happening here. None of the contributors (or whatever you want to call them) are complaining. Just some loudmouth wannabe with no stake.

You're being a damn drama queen trying to stir up trouble where there is none.

YOU'RE BEING A TROLL.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:06 .

[SHOVA]

Urk, your opinion matters just as much as mine. Whatever you think of me, believe me, I think even less of you. if you insist on defending the resubmitting of others work with out their say so, that is your right, just as it is mine to say, that is not good. Argue about it all you want, by all means, please continue to call me a troll, and a nitwit. it's just more ammo for the mods when they do show up.