78 réponses à ce sujet

[wyldhunt1]

Alright, look....
This is not the place for a flame war. You don't like it because he admitted that he didn't ask The Amethyst Dragon before using his icons. Fine. They have both posted (Well, you re-posted for The Krit) that they don't mind ShaDoOoW using their stuff. The only complaint appears to be a very minor grammar mistake on ShaDoOoW's part.
If you choose not to use it, great.
You have made your opinion clear.
Everyone else has made their opinion clear.

Can we all be done with this now before ShaDoOoW is forced to start a new thread when a mod locks this one for flame wars?

On that note, this is my last off topic post here.
All future attempts at starting a flame war will be ignored.

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Edit: Very well. I bow to your wisdom, Wyld.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:05 .

[Shadooow]

SHOVA wrote...

Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.

Yes I didn't asked The Krit officially.

Two reasons: first, in case of familiar The Krit is listed here by Ben Harrison who credited him for providing know how that allowed to create this set of fixes - AFAIK The Krit didn't participated in fixing blueprints itself and I get permission from both Ben Harrison and BCH to re-use their content in my patch. Second in case of Craft Magic Fixes, the fix consist of about twenty 2DA changes. In fact I didn't took his work there because I had mine 2da modified already so I looked what he changed and replicated his changes onto my version. Afaik 2DA are property of Bioware anyway.

Also since he is NWN Wiki admin and I created a page for this project that listed familiars, ke knew very well this content is here. If he had some issues he could told me. But if I understood his post correctly he doesn't even have a problem with his content being used in Patch.

My objection against The Krit on vault page is that he found out a bug in Patch (based on fact that he knew about Patch goals to provide absolute compatibility with 1.69 since he asked me about this on NWN Wiki) and instead of reporting the bug he suggested others not using the Patch because of that issue. I overstepped when I implied that he knew about that issue before I released final version so pardon me for that.

EDIT:
I don't even expect that other NWN experts like LightFoot8 or you SHOVA use this Patch. If I wouldn't be an author I would already have most of the fixes in my modules so I wouldn't have many points to use the Patch. I guess thats the reason why others do not use it, even though you won't shouldn't lose anything if you install it as anything you already did will overwrite Patch resources due to the higher priority.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:46 .

[Skildron]

Just a little question to all this: What about the IGN EULA? I read it, especially the parts about custom content posted to the IGN networks and the reuse thereof. If my understanding of the english legal text is correct, then it comes down to that you grant the right on all of your submissions to the IGN networks to IGN. So, if anyone has to be asked for the right of reusage of custom content on the nwvault, it would be IGN. By posting content there you make it publicly available for usage.

Please, correct me if I misunderstood those passages in the IGN EULA

Greetings
Skildron

[Bannor Bloodfist]

Nothing for or against anything in this thread as I am not bothering to read any of it, but I will point out This beta thread where the last post on the first page showed that this entire topic does not belong in the general discussion forum, but does belong down in the NwN 1 Custom Content and Community Expansion Pack. That "original" post about this entire project, was posted here in the general discussion, and was MOVED by Stanley Woo because it does not belong up here.

The OP should have taken the polite hint about that move in the first place and not have started a NEW thread here, regardless of what version he is discussing. ANY thread regarding custom content belongs in the forum created for those topics.

[Malagant]

SHOVA wrote...

Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.

The Krit: I do not object to my work being incorporated into this project (I did release it for people to use after all)...

What's the problem here?

You want to use The Krit's post as defense of your position but the only thing taken issue with by The Krit is being listed as a contributor when he obviously was not, most likely a language barrier issue (for us English speakers do have a tendancy to make fluid definitions for established concepts when it suits). Otherwise, it's specifically stated by The Krit that The Krit doesn't care much.

Modifié par Malagant, 16 décembre 2011 - 10:28 .

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Yes Skildron. You read that correctly. According to the vault TOS everything on it is distributed at the sole discretion of IGN. A number of excellent CC creators have stopped hosting files there as a result and frankly good riddance as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to upset people, but I also have no intention of spending what little time I have for building trying to get permission to use content. If people have a problem with me using it I'd just as soon they host it elsewhere anyway.

The NWN and NWN 2 EULA contain some interesting provisions as well. By installing the game you agree to cede proprietary rights of any and all custom content created for NWN to Atari.

But you know how it is. The indignation of the truly righteous trumps little things like terms of service when using other peoples bandwidth and data storage or licensng agreements with people who own the IP you're working in.

But, we compromised. IGN is ad-driven after all, and they stood to lose a lot of page views if some of the more popular files changed hosts. As a community we have agreed, as a courtesy (and against my wishes I will add), to allow contributors to request that their work not be integrated to other releases without making a reasonable attempt to get permission from the content creator.

However, as you can see, there remains a small but loud contingent of troublemakers for whom that's not good enough and every chance they get they start strutting their superior morality and calling the rest of the community thieves and pirates. Meanwhile, they cling to IP that is not their own and demand free file storage and bandwidth for transfers. It is, after all, their birthright.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[Pstemarie]

SHOVA wrote...

Perhaps ShaDo0oW forgot to ask if he could include the Krits work. the Krit does not come out and say it, but does imply that no conversation happened.

Implied, correct but not definitive. I may be mistaken, but I believe that The Krit's work in question was released with the understanding that it may be repackaged - I'll have to check his listing.

Pstemarie I find your lack of understanding on how dangerous resubmitting of work is, due to how it was the Q team who started the conversation/uproar in the first place. While you may not agree with it, if I were to resubmit project Q content in a new hak set, without so much as I am going to use it, and did a credit list, as a read me, you would be the first one flipping out. But don't take my word for it, take Qs

To my knowledge, the people who started that whole ownership debacle are no longer associated with Project Q. In the early stages of that sordid I affair I jumped on the bandwagon, but once I'd given it some real thought, I retracted my support.

As for me being the first to flip about my Project Q stuff being used in another package. Lemme shout this so we all understand now: ANYTHING I MAKE IS PUBLIC DOMAIN, USE AS YOU WISH. I really don't know how to make it clearer than that.

Furthermore, we provide the email link so that we may forward requests to use the work that is included in Project Q by independant authors to that author. Anything that occurs after that is solely between the requestor and the author. Those statements only prove that Project Q supports the integrity of it contributors and their work.

Just to be clear Pstemarie, we are talking artwork here, in ShaDo0oWs patch, not just 2da edits, or scripting lines. Saying its ok, from a Q team member, is at least hypocritical, and at most the stupidest thing you have ever posted, should you wish to keep the info listed on the Q faq page true. But, hey I am just whining, and no one cares anyway.

Just to be clear on what I believe:

1. Authors should be asked if their content can be used, repackaged, redistributed.

2. It is the new package's developer that has a responsibility to contact the original author.

3. If every reasonable attempt has been made to contact the original author, but no permission is given and the work is still used, then it is the original author's responsibility to take action to preserve the integrity of their authorship.

Some people seem to be on a crusade here, not because of preserving author's rights, but because of ShaDoOoW's rel;ationship with certain Community members. I wonder which one this falls under...

Modifié par Pstemarie, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:30 .

[Shadooow]

UPDATE for german players and builders:

markuqui reported there is a bug in german talk table as both genders used female texts. That is not corrected and all files were updated. You can either re-download installer or manual archive or simply only dialog.tlk_GE.7z archive which contains only talk tables - in this case you have to same as for manual installation extract the archive into your NWN folder (NOT into tlk folder!!!) and conform overwrites.

[Frith5]

Well said, Pstemarie. Let cool heads prevail. This community, though strong, is old and thinner than I'd like. Now doesn't seem the time to break it further apart over small mistakes. Two things really depress me about this debacle. One, there can be little doubt that serious and tedious hours of work went into ShaDoOow's effort here, yet a tiny issue that the two principal parties (ShaDoOoW and The Krit) have already addressed and concluded, is being bruited about and waved like a flag over the community. If I get in a squabble with Joe, and Joe and I work it out, I don't want some interloper keeping it going and stirring it up! Let it go. Two, the dragging of old issues out to justify this attack on ShaDoOow, when those issues have died down. Let it go. To me, NWN is beloved, and I still get a huge kick out of making cc, and being a part of the community, and I LOVE seeing new things people have put themselves into (such as his 'patch') released for anyone who wants to use it. But I am not blind. The game is old, the community thinned (yet blessedly newcomers of astonishing talent continue to arise, like Sen, Zwerk, and OldTimeRadio, to name just a few). The result of unnecessary infighting, ego-driven attacks, and personally motivated trolling can only be bad news for the old gal. I want to see the community endure, and I have no doubt new and exciting things are still waiting for the community. Let's not <insert favorite profanity here> it up over petty things.

Regards,
JFK

[Vibrant Penumbra]

 I'm rather enjoying the meta-game of watching who attacks who and who presents reasoned arguments and who ignores what...

Very interesting 

Lets me know whose posts to read for content and whose to read for entertainment.

Personally, I class ShadoOow's work along the same lines as Fox' Spells - a massive effort at fixing a lot of things and impressive in its own right. Very impressive.

But not for everyone.

I don't do scripting. But the BF says ShadoOow is always worth reading. So I do 

[Shadooow]

Vibrant Penumbra wrote...

Personally, I class ShadoOow's work along the same lines as Fox' Spells - a massive effort at fixing a lot of things and impressive in its own right. Very impressive.

But not for everyone.

I don't do scripting.

BTW this Patch was designed for majority, I don't know who you are or rather what are you, but for regular player there are no downsides (assumed that player don't rely on exploits and bugs I fixed in his gameplay), player can't loose anything, only gain - how much depends whether he plays single player modules (in this case 99% Patch content will apply) or multiplayer modules; that is PWs - in this case it depends whether PW also installed Patch and whether they have merged all 2DAs.

There is no scripting or building required - unlike CEP and other HAK based packages, Patch gets incorporated into every single player module you play or host automatically.

If you are builder though, then you gain new possibilies in toolset, all without need to script anything.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 décembre 2011 - 09:28 .

[WebShaman]

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Nothing for or against anything in this thread as I am not bothering to read any of it, but I will point out This beta thread where the last post on the first page showed that this entire topic does not belong in the general discussion forum, but does belong down in the NwN 1 Custom Content and Community Expansion Pack. That "original" post about this entire project, was posted here in the general discussion, and was MOVED by Stanley Woo because it does not belong up here.

The OP should have taken the polite hint about that move in the first place and not have started a NEW thread here, regardless of what version he is discussing. ANY thread regarding custom content belongs in the forum created for those topics.

*mutters under his breath*

I can't believe that I am agreeing with Bannor Bloodfist on this!!!

BUT!!

He is absolutely correct here.

[Fester Pot]

I've had a player send me a save game to get around an issue that they came across in Shadewood.

One of the plot arcs requires the head of a dead Banshee, which uses a tag based script to cast Wail of Banshee from the item, even if the player is unable to do so based on their low level.

AssignCommand (oPC, ActionCastSpellAtObject(SPELL_WAIL_OF_THE_BANSHEE, GetNearestObjectByTag("VOLO_BENCH"), TRUE, TRUE));

The placeable, VOLO_BENCH, has a script check for what spell is cast at in the OnSpellCastAt script,

- snip -

// Check the last spell that was cast:
  switch( GetLastSpell())
  { // If it was Wail of the Banshee...
  //SendMessageToPC( GetLastSpellCaster(), "GetLastSpell Check!");
    case SPELL_WAIL_OF_THE_BANSHEE:
    { // ...and nSpell has not been set...
      if( !nSpell)
      { // ...adjust the value of nSpell appropriately:
       
        ... script stuff ... gets rid of the bench and spawns in a lever ....

Setting all required variables to force the Wail fails - Wail of the Banshee simply is not cast on the placeable item / or detected as being cast with 1.70 installed. Character's level is Wizard 4. I'm assuming because of certain spell changes, it makes spells uncastable when playing on a module that does not have this installed or that was not built with 1.70 installed.

I had to have the player send me their save game and use the Wail of the Banshee item as intended on a machine that does not have 1.70 installed, save the game and send the save game back so they could continue.

The script works fine otherwise, as long at 1.70 is not installed.

EDIT: Working with the author to help troubleshoot the issue and verify if 1.70 caused this for the user who had it installed - or if it's something unrelated (override files, etc).

FP!

Modifié par Fester Pot, 20 décembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[WhiZard]

I compared the spells.2da, and didn't find any difference for the horrid wilting line, but I did find many spells that would no longer be targetable on the ground (e.g. firestorm, meteor swarm, storm of vengeance). This looks like a systematic replacement of 0x05 with 0x09 (which should be 0x0D).

This can be a problem for servers/modules that use ActionCastSpellAtLocation() for these spells.

Modifié par WhiZard, 20 décembre 2011 - 11:31 .

[YeOlde]

Hey ShaDoOoW! Nice work! I want to be perfectly clear...

If I install this on my computer. Will it break anything for me if I play on another server that doesn't have 1.70 installed?

[Shadooow]

YeOlde wrote...

Hey ShaDoOoW! Nice work! I want to be perfectly clear...

If I install this on my computer. Will it break anything for me if I play on another server that doesn't have 1.70 installed?

No it shouldn't (and if it does then report it, that would be bug). There is actually a benefit for you using the patch on server that doesn't support it. You will be able to build with the epic spell feats prerequisities change (corrected the prerequisities to cast lvl 9 spells to require only 17 lvl cleric/druid/wiz or 18sorc not 21).

WhiZard wrote...

I compared the spells.2da, and didn't
find any difference for the horrid wilting line, but I did find many
spells that would no longer be targetable on the ground (e.g. firestorm,
meteor swarm, storm of vengeance). This looks like a systematic
replacement of 0x05 with 0x09 (which should be 0x0D).

This can be a problem for servers/modules that use ActionCastSpellAtLocation() for these spells.

You have outdated 2DA, in the time of first release this issue was indeed there and The Krit pointed it out and I fixed it immediately. The TargetType spells.2da changes were moved into HAK version and I strongly suggest to merge them for any PW that uses haks, at least Meteor Swarm which has the 0x0D issue. 0x0D is actually wrong, in single player you won't be able to target area with these spells however in multiplayer when you use this spell from quickslot you will have to target yourself or area. Granted that spell has personal range, its stupid to cast it on area/ground as that will force your character move to that spot and cast it on self there. Removing the Area bit from TargetType which I did for Meteor Swarm in initial release fixes this issue and make this spell easy to cast as you don't have to choose target, spell will be always automatically targetted at your character.

Fester Pot wrote...
...

So far I was unable to reproduce this bug, I even tried to change TargetType bit to exclude placeables from wail of banshee however casting a spell via scripting bypassed that change anyway (thats btw why monsters can cast self-protections spells on another target). Still not sure what caused this neither if Patch 1.70 has anything to do with this however it doesn't look like it.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:18 .

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WhiZard wrote...

I compared the spells.2da, and didn't
find any difference for the horrid wilting line, but I did find many
spells that would no longer be targetable on the ground (e.g. firestorm,
meteor swarm, storm of vengeance). This looks like a systematic
replacement of 0x05 with 0x09 (which should be 0x0D).

This can be a problem for servers/modules that use ActionCastSpellAtLocation() for these spells.

You have outdated 2DA, in the time of first release this issue was indeed there and The Krit pointed it out and I fixed it immediately. The TargetType spells.2da changes were moved into HAK version and I strongly suggest to merge them for any PW that uses haks, at least Meteor Swarm which has the 0x0D issue. 0x0D is actually wrong, in single player you won't be able to target area with these spells however in multiplayer when you use this spell from quickslot you will have to target yourself or area. Granted that spell has personal range, its stupid to cast it on area/ground as that will force your character move to that spot and cast it on self there. Removing the Area bit from TargetType which I did for Meteor Swarm in initial release fixes this issue and make this spell easy to cast as you don't have to choose target, spell will be always automatically targetted at your character.

0x0D still requires targeting in SP.  The point I was making was for modules/servers that would themselves use these spells on locations.  For example, when a player character steps over a trigger, a creature in an unaccessible region of the same area can cast a 3x3 array of meteor swarms, with the middle one centered on the player's location. As the script commands ignore the range for the spell, this is quite feasible in practice, and I believe SoU did something similar to this with wail of the banshee (though I think.that used the Fake subset).

Modifié par WhiZard, 21 décembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Shadooow]

Not possible in <1.69 -> Meteor Swarm script is bound to the location of OBJECT_SELF, however this is possible in 1.70, because all spells in 1.70 uses correct variables thus allowing both custom content like this and custom potions (there were issues where custom potion given to the henchman added benefits to the player character).

BTW it is possible in 1.70 because as I wrote in last post spell casting triggered via scripting also ignores TargetType.

I can imagine that current TargetType of the Meteor Swarm spell would allow to increase a range and then make this spell behave like Bombardment without HAKs. However this cannot be intented, or why this is only spell that has this issue or "feature"?

Theory: I actually think that most of these spell has 0x05 TargetType because of the targetting issue. Probably there was some reason to keep area functionality but there wasn't yet crafting (think they are all NWN spells, not from expansions) so the spells didn't have to have the item functionality. Without item bit, the targetting issue isn't there, when used from quickslot spell is automatically targetted on self, but it is possible to target it via radial on area. However when item bit is added it is messed.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Not possible in <1.69 -> Meteor Swarm script is bound to the location of OBJECT_SELF, however this is possible in 1.70, because all spells in 1.70 uses correct variables thus allowing both custom content like this and custom potions (there were issues where custom potion given to the henchman added benefits to the player character).

Right for that one, but looks like SoV can be replicated in this way for a huge storm, and all it takes for the functioning of the others is editing the spell script (without having to change the 2da).

Modifié par WhiZard, 21 décembre 2011 - 02:10 .

[Shadooow]

Again. All these spells have Personal range. Thus although player can target an area (for 0x0D directy, for 0x05 only via radial on the ground), character will move toward that area and cast the spell under self there.

Unless you change range in 2DA you won't allow player character to cast these spells like Bombardment in normal way. Argumenting that a script could do that is insignificant because casting spells via script action ignores both Range and (yours knowhow that Im not very incluned it is correct) TargetType so this is still possible even in 1.70.

Except that firestorm, meteor swarm and invisible purge does incorrectly uses OBJECT_SELF in their spellscript so even if you would use script to force player to cast it on distant area spell would still worked as cast on self. Argumenting you can fix the spellscript seems weird to me - thats what I did in the Patch afterall. In 1.70 you can do this as all spellscript uses correct variables.

Now, the only negative(?) effect of this change, which is btw in HAK version now (and thus only recommended but not automatically installed), would be that current 1.69 implementation allow to change range of the spell via 2DA server-side. AFAIK this itself doesn't make the "no spell preparation" issue and since the spell has Area bit already it would be with a spellscript change possible to allow this spell to be theoretically cast on distant area without need to use HAK. However since this change in Patch require HAK it is meaningless. For HAK based servers, they can do whatever they want via HAK with both 1.69 and 1.70, in 1.70 they won't have to fix spellscripts, only change range and targettype.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 21 décembre 2011 - 05:18 .

[Ranger Solo]

OK. I'm lost now.

As a Mac user here just what am I to expect from this patch? I don't know if I should use this patch or not?

[Shadooow]

Ill tell you this way. Why do you won't try it? What can you lose? If it would screw anything out which it doesn't you can uninstall it so whats the problem? Don't listen peoples who tell you how bad or how wrong (or how great ) is this patch and make your own decision.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 21 décembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Argumenting that a script could do that is insignificant because casting spells via script action ignores both Range and (yours knowhow that Im not very incluned it is correct) TargetType so this is still possible even in 1.70.

I remember it being the other way around.  Target type is not ignored, causing spells not to activate their scripts, while range is ignored allowing spells to target objects farther away.

[Fester Pot]

Update: Regarding the Wail of the Banshee spell not being properly cast on the placeable, after some testing with ShaDoOoW, it's been resolved that 1.70 is not the culprit, but possibly a wild spells.2da in the override directory.

Thanks for looking into this and resolving the issue so quickly.

FP!