That's hardly an argument. If Maric had been alive yes, things would have been different. But that doesn't change the fact that Loghain's actions are a betrayal. However you perceive them, that is what they are. It doesn't matter if Maric isn't aware of it (which he probably isn't, being dead). He was never aware of the nature of Loghain's previous betryals, but they were betryals even so. If Loghain steals the last cookie from the royal cookie jar, and Maric doesn't notice, it's a betrayal.google_calasade wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
It's fairly obvious what is meant by Flemeth's prophecy. There is no question that Maric would consider the murder of his son a betrayal if he was alive to witness it, and to say that Loghain is somehow unaware of that is ludicrous.google_calasade wrote...
*** decided to skip the argument except to say it's impossible to betray a dead man ***
His actual state of existence is irrelevent.
I would say arguing with an argument you have not seen in some desperate attempt to validate whatever it is you believe is quite ludicrous.
Cailan coming from Marric's seed is inconsequential. Had Marric been alive or Cailan a more sound king, Loghain would have acted entirely differently. Loghain believed Cailan would be an ineffectual wartime king (as no doubt Marric himself would have believed given Cailan's exuberance for war and foolish need to be recognized along the same lines as the heros of old). Loghain simply took whatever steps he deemed necessary to ensure Ferelden's survival. There is no betrayal of Marric or Marric's memory in that, because from what I've seen, Marric was not much different than Loghain himself regarding the love he had for his country.
Going off of real history, love for one's country often out-weighed emotions for one's children and visa versa...
Loghain is one of the more complex characters involved in a complex situation. To judge him on the surface based on Flemeth's statement (written after Origins to better serve the current direction) is to misunderstand Loghain and his actions.
There, I've said what I deleted, and bow out of this part of the conversation.
Walking away from a battle that he could've changed also goes against everything Maric tried to teach Loghain. No matter how you interpret it, he betrayed Maric. He betrayed him personally, by allowing his son to die, he betrayed his memory by allowing the Darkspawn to run rampant over the country Maric loved, he betrayed his ideals by becoming precisely the sort of tyrannical ruler that he and Maric fought to depose.
Loghain also believed Orlesians would pop out of the woodwork at any given moment, so his opinion isn't exactly reliable. If Maric was alive, it would more than likely be obvious to him that Loghain is the unsound one, not Cailan, just like it is obvious to the rest of the Bannorn.
It's funny to me that people constantly tout Loghain as a "complex character" but it never occurs to them that Cailan could be putting on a show of confidence for the purpose of boosting morale, despite the fact that Wynne will explicitly explain to the warden that, as king, maintaining morale is his job. We don't know what Cailan actually felt at that time and we never will. Considering almost everyone else you meet in the game hides things or outright lies to you, why would you assume that Cailan's outward appearance is an accurate projection of his inner feelings?
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