313 réponses à ce sujet

[JJDrakken]

They picked DA2 over The Witcher 2?

[Frek]

Il Divo wrote...

Objective quality, and value, cannot be measured from any entertainment's popularity. I'd say that it really can't be measured at all. I hope that answers your question. I will not apply my definition of quality because that quality has nothing to do with either product's popularity...

Ok but you really didn't answer my question. Why did people spread the 'popularity' of DA:O if it wasn't subjective or objective 'quality'? Is is your contention that subjective or objective 'quality' isn't a factor is what people said about DA:O and DA2?

You are claiming that the 'quality' of the product has no relation to it's 'popularity'. Since you also claim that objective quality is unmeasurable, and I'll add undefinable and doesn't exist. Therefore the only definition of the word 'quality' is the subjective one. You provided a nice definition of that above.

So either you are arguing using a definition of 'quality' that doesn't exist or your statements are illogical. Which is it?

[Sylvianus]

Il Divo wrote...

Frek wrote...

Define the word "quality" as you have used it in the above quote please. Make use of the words objective and subjective in your answer.

After you've defined "quality" for me, then I'd like to know this.  Apply your definition of 'quality'
to the following:

Alot of people like DA:O, so they spread alot of positive feedback resulting in greater sales.

Alot of people didn't like DA2, so they spread alot of negative feedback resulting in lesser sales.

Did the 'quality' of DA:O and DA2 have anything to do with these 2 scenarios? (Remember we are using whatever you provide as the definition of 'quality' from the first quote above in your 'logical' statement)

Objective quality, and value, cannot be measured from any entertainment's popularity. I'd say that it really can't be measured at all. I hope that answers your question. I will not apply my definition of quality because that quality has nothing to do with either product's popularity, beyond the sensation of quality (or lack of quality) that any particular gamer might have had, which motivated them to spread news of DA:O/DA2.

That doesn't mean anything.  Objective quality ? Who has the ability to objectively determine what is quality? ( lack of quality )

how do you judge quality work objectively without popularity ? How Baldur gate could be seen as a quality work without the popularity he had at one period, one of the best rpg ? For me this game is a relic of the past every time I've heard about It, but I don't doubt it was a great game.

How Star Wars could be viewed as an example to follow for a solid script, a revolutionary work and quality recognized without the popularity ? Quality work objectively, but by who ?

I'd say that objective quality cannot be measured at all, unlike popularity and subjective opinions, that give more content about this quality or lack of quality supposed.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 12 décembre 2011 - 05:05 .

[LPPrince]

Il Divo wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Serious question. Dead serious.

DA2 or Horse Armor DLC?

Ooh, tough one, but I'll stick with DA2. I'm one of those idiots who actually bought the Horse Armor because I needed to have everything. It literally changed nothing about the gameplay, so it was like I basically handed Bethesda an extra two dollars and got nothing back. But they did fix their mistake with Knights of the Nine. I went hardcore Paladin after that with that sweet set of armor.  

The fact that that's a tough question is just sad, isn't it? ahahahahaha

Yeah, but not quite as sad as the loss of my two dollars.

Here here, its not so bad. Think Skyrim.

[LPPrince]

JJDrakken wrote...

They picked DA2 over The Witcher 2?

As potential nominees for RPG of the Year, yeah.

I know. I laughed my ass off.

[Teddie Sage]

Multi-platformed games always get more crowd and more popularity.

[Il Divo]

Frek wrote...

Ok but you really didn't answer my question. Why did people spread the 'popularity' of DA:O if it wasn't subjective or objective 'quality'? Is is your contention that subjective or objective 'quality' isn't a factor is what people said about DA:O and DA2?

You are claiming that the 'quality' of the product has no relation to it's 'popularity'. Since you also claim that objective quality is unmeasurable, and I'll add undefinable and doesn't exist. Therefore the only definition of the word 'quality' is the subjective one. You provided a nice definition of that above.

So either you are arguing using a definition of 'quality' that doesn't exist or your statements are illogical. Which is it?

It's because they thought it possessed quality. Word of mouth is in a sense an indicator of majority opinion, which is popularity. What I'm arguing against is the idea that a summation of subjective opinions claiming that one game has quality is some kind of objective measurement of that thing's quality with respect to any other thing.

In other words, saying that Skyrim is better than DA2 because the setting is superior is acceptable. Saying that Skyrim is superior because it has twice the sales numbers is not. As an example of why, take any form of entertainment which you derive enjoyment from (music, gaming, anything). Is your sense of quality/entertainment factor a result of how many sales a thing might have? I'd wager not at all, it's a measure of what you personally see as enjoyable in that product. Better yet, take any moment where you've found a product "over-rated" compared to majority opinion. In considering that thing over-rated, you consider it to possess less quality than others may claim.

Our subjective opinions of quality are fine; it's when we attempt to unite those opinions with popularity to produce an objective judgment that we run into problems. The  two terms are not synonymous, but possess distinct meanings.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 décembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[Il Divo]

Sylvianus wrote...
That doesn't mean anything.  Objective quality ? Who has the ability to objectively determine what is quality? ( lack of quality )

how do you judge quality work objectively without popularity ? How Baldur gate could be seen as a quality work without the popularity he had at one period, one of the best rpg ? For me this game is a relic of the past every time I've heard about It, but I don't doubt it was a great game.

How Star Wars could be viewed as an example to follow for a solid script, a revolutionary work and quality recognized without the popularity ? Quality work objectively, but by who ?

I'd say that objective quality cannot be measured at all, unlike popularity and subjective opinions, that give more content about this quality or lack of quality supposed.

Well, I'd say that's kinda the point. No one can determine an objective quality of these games, but are limited to their subjective perceptions (which is perfectly fine).

[Frek]

You're not really answering my question. The answer provided by you is an attempt to sidestep the original statement that you made. That is that 'quality' has NOTHING to do with 'popularity'. I really feel my last post can stand on it's own and I rest my case.

Some of what you have said above is true and I agree with it, however you aren't dealing with the original statement that you made which is what I have an issue with. I think I and another poster have shown that 'quality' is connected with 'popularity'. If you want to prove me wrong then answer my last post.

[Sylvianus]

Il Divo wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
That doesn't mean anything.  Objective quality ? Who has the ability to objectively determine what is quality? ( lack of quality )

how do you judge quality work objectively without popularity ? How Baldur gate could be seen as a quality work without the popularity he had at one period, one of the best rpg ? For me this game is a relic of the past every time I've heard about It, but I don't doubt it was a great game.

How Star Wars could be viewed as an example to follow for a solid script, a revolutionary work and quality recognized without the popularity ? Quality work objectively, but by who ?

I'd say that objective quality cannot be measured at all, unlike popularity and subjective opinions, that give more content about this quality or lack of quality supposed.

Well, I'd say that's kinda the point. No one can determine an objective quality of these games, but are limited to their subjective perceptions (which is perfectly fine).

Yep, I agree with you, but to me your argument is somehow too absolute. With that, we can not have a standard to judge quality or not.

Nothing is so easy. Quality work can be recognized by popularity, and a majority of strong positive or negative opinions about the quality or lack of quality of a game This is the true law actually, although the individuals may disagree. That's the reality.

Some in the world think that Star Wars was garbage, so how can we say that this is one of the greatest films made ​​in the 70s ? ( reviews, Tv, yadda yadda ) Thanks to the incredible popularity, with very positive opinions generation after generation. Science fiction films continue to draw inspiration from Star Wars. This is what I call the content that recognizes almost objectively, even if it is not the case quality work. It is a subjective content as well , but which allows us to give an indication of the quality expected or not.

But as I said, nothing is absolute, precisely because of this subjectivity. For me, popularity isn't something that we should value much, but we can't deny either.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 12 décembre 2011 - 05:42 .

[Il Divo]

Frek wrote...

You're not really answering my question. The answer provided by you is an attempt to sidestep the original statement that you made. That is that 'quality' has NOTHING to do with 'popularity'. I really feel my last post can stand on it's own and I rest my case.

Some of what you have said above is true and I agree with it, however you aren't dealing with the original statement that you made which is what I have an issue with. I think I and another poster have shown that 'quality' is connected with 'popularity'. If you want to prove me wrong then answer my last post.

I already have. For your statement to be logically consistent, you must demonstrate why what is popular is "good", or quality, when they are two entirely distinct terms. Quality ceases to have meaning if it is synonymous with popularity.

I'd wager that at some point in your life you have not followed majority opinion for your entertainment, in which case popularity cannot be a measure of quality, because that popularity had nothing to do with your enjoyment, or lack of enjoyment, in a product. You don't enjoy something because it's popular, but for what that experience can offer you. From the perspective of the individual, what is popular is irrelevant to enjoyment, and as a result has no relation.

[Il Divo]

Sylvianus wrote...

Yep, I agree with you, but to me your argument is somehow too absolute. With that, we can not have a standard to judge quality or not.

Nothing is so easy. Quality work can be recognized by popularity, and a majority of strong positive or negative opinions about the quality or lack of quality of a game This is the true law actually, although the individuals may disagree. That's the reality.

Some in the world think that Star Wars was garbage, so how can we say that this is one of the greatest films made ​​in the 70s ? ( reviews, Tv, yadda yadda ) Thanks to the incredible popularity, with very positive opinions generation after generation. Science fiction films continue to draw inspiration from Star Wars. This is what I call the content that recognizes almost objectively, even if it is not the case quality work. It is a subjective content as well , but which allows us to give an indication of the quality expected or not.

But as I said, nothing is absolute, precisely because of this subjectivity. For me, popularity isn't something that we should value much, but we can't deny either.

I won't deny that popularity plays a role in the entertainment industry, but more importantly we must recognize that how something changes will be a result of its popularity. Accepting (for example) that a developer wants to make a successful product, he must be aware that he will inevitably default to public opinion. In this case, it does seem to be the case that fans prefer DA:O to DA2, and so popularity can influence development processes.

But even that a million different reviews say that Star Wars has quality and is one of the greatest Sci-Films ever made can't unite it with that idea. That's why I consider dissent from the indidual so critical; because it's indicative of how people can easily break away from what is popular and can conceive that popularity as having little value.

I would also say that in Star Wars' case, we've upped the stakes since we must now consider inspiration, in addition to a thing's inherent quality, which makes it alot more complicated when designating what is "greatest". It will be harder for a Sci-Fi fan to dislike Star Wars, strictly because so much of modern day Sci-Fi has been inspired by it. This would make it substantially more difficult to claim that Star Wars has no quality, for example.

Edit: And on that note gentlemen, exams in the morning. I probably won't be able to respond in-depth until Tuesday, so sorry for any delays.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 décembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[Sylvianus]

Il Divo wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Yep, I agree with you, but to me your argument is somehow too absolute. With that, we can not have a standard to judge quality or not.

Nothing is so easy. Quality work can be recognized by popularity, and a majority of strong positive or negative opinions about the quality or lack of quality of a game This is the true law actually, although the individuals may disagree. That's the reality.

Some in the world think that Star Wars was garbage, so how can we say that this is one of the greatest films made ​​in the 70s ? ( reviews, Tv, yadda yadda ) Thanks to the incredible popularity, with very positive opinions generation after generation. Science fiction films continue to draw inspiration from Star Wars. This is what I call the content that recognizes almost objectively, even if it is not the case quality work. It is a subjective content as well , but which allows us to give an indication of the quality expected or not.

But as I said, nothing is absolute, precisely because of this subjectivity. For me, popularity isn't something that we should value much, but we can't deny either.

I won't deny that popularity plays a role in the entertainment industry, but more importantly we must recognize that how something changes will be a result of its popularity. Accepting (for example) that a developer wants to make a successful product, he must be aware that he will inevitably default to public opinion. In this case, it does seem to be the case that fans prefer DA:O to DA2, and so popularity can influence development processes.

But even that a million different reviews say that Star Wars has quality and is one of the greatest Sci-Films ever made can't unite it with that idea. That's why I consider dissent from the indidual so critical; because it's indicative of how people can easily break away from what is popular and can conceive that popularity as having little value.

I would also say that in Star Wars' case, we've upped the stakes since we must now consider inspiration, in addition to a thing's inherent quality, which makes it alot more complicated when designating what is "greatest". It will be harder for a Sci-Fi fan to dislike Star Wars, strictly because so much of modern day Sci-Fi has been inspired by it. This would make it substantially more difficult to claim that Star Wars has no quality, for example.

Edit: And on that note gentlemen, exams in the morning. I probably won't be able to respond in-depth until Tuesday, so sorry for any delays.

Well, I agree, nobody knows, we can only imagine, and everyone's opinion.

I don't disagree with your post otherwise, Goog luck for your exams by the way.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 12 décembre 2011 - 06:06 .

[Stanley Woo]

Since we're now arguing about arguing and challenging each other to defend their own opinions, I'm going to shut this thread down.

End of line.