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[Maria13]

Beginning of chap 7 mentions two dwarven merchants the party meet on the road... Bohdan and Sandal?

[Silfren]

The same thought occurred to me. I think it's inevitable not to wonder about Bodahn and Sandal whenever "two dwarven merchant travelers" are mentioned, but I'm of the mind that there wasn't any significance to this. Maybe it was a quick one-off to place Sandal in Orlais, but beyond that, who knows?

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So, let me get this straight.

• The Seekers are split in two, a bunch supporting the Divine and a bunch supporting the Lord Seeker.
• The Templar split in two, a bunch (and from what I gather, the Knight-Vigilant) supporting the Divine and a bunch supporting the Lord Seeker.
• The Divine (essentially the Chantry) wishes to assist the mages.
• Alistair has shown support for the mages by struggling against the Templar.
• The Tranquil can be cured.
• Orlais has fallen apart.
  
  So in the end, this means:
• Mages have a decent backing behind them.
• Templar are leaderless after the death fo the Lord Seeker.
• Templar don't have much backing.
• Rite of Tranquility isn't very viable anymore.
• Mages will have difficulty sustaining Circle Towers without the Tranquil to support them.
• Templar barely have any resources to sustain a war.
• Orlais is defenseless.

Am I right? Sounds to me that within one novel, they've established a lot of changes (which will confuse the hell out of the player if it's not fully explained in Dragon Age 3) and that they've managed to flip the renegade Templar faction into the underdog. Not that surprising though with all the hints of mage things down the line.

Things are never that cut and dried.

Amongst the population, you can bet there WILL be people who support the templars against the mages.  Centuries of Chantry doctrine means that mages are widely feared, often hated.  That's not going to just go away.  And I have no doubt whatsoever that there are plenty of Chantry clergy who will support the templars.  The Divine is not the Chantry.  She's just one person, and the novel itself made clear that she has a number of enemies.  Even if the book hadn't made that point, the fact is that she has many centuries' worth of imbedded tradition and prejudice working against her.  She WILL have a number of enemies within the Chantry's ranks who will agree with the Lord Seeker that she must be removed from office.

The Rite of Tranquility is still viable.  Don't forget that the knowledge of the mechanics of how to perform the ritual are known only by one small group of people, and the only person with actual direct experience of performing the ritual is now dead--not to mention it's not a simple ritual to do in any case.  It's hardly a situation where suddenly mages everywhere are going to round up the Tranquil in order to "un-Tranquil" them. 

I also wouldn't say that we know too much about just how much backing the mages have.  They have the support of the Divine, yes, but again, she is just one indidivual.  It remains to be seen how much support SHE has, from the populace at large and within Chantry ranks.  Also, while Alistair might have been campaigning for the mages to be free to govern themselves, I'm not sure it can be said he would be willing to support mages in an all-or-nothing freedom scenario of mages vs. templars.  He, too, after all, was once a templar and can't really be said to have completely abandoned Chantry indoctrination.  Also, he has a nation to run and if he cares anything about politics at all, he'll be sensitive to turning his own people against him if he supports the mages too broadly.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:43 .

[Augustei]

Not to mention with Ferelden being a feudal monarchy, his support wont mean much unless a majority of the nobles support his stance as well

[ddv.rsa]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So, let me get this straight.

• The Seekers are split in two, a bunch supporting the Divine and a bunch supporting the Lord Seeker.
• The Templar split in two, a bunch (and from what I gather, the Knight-Vigilant) supporting the Divine and a bunch supporting the Lord Seeker.
• The Divine (essentially the Chantry) wishes to assist the mages.
• Alistair has shown support for the mages by struggling against the Templar.
• The Tranquil can be cured.
• Orlais has fallen apart.
  
  So in the end, this means:
• Mages have a decent backing behind them.
• Templar are leaderless after the death fo the Lord Seeker.
• Templar don't have much backing.
• Rite of Tranquility isn't very viable anymore.
• Mages will have difficulty sustaining Circle Towers without the Tranquil to support them.
• Templar barely have any resources to sustain a war.
• Orlais is defenseless.

Am I right? Sounds to me that within one novel, they've established a lot of changes (which will confuse the hell out of the player if it's not fully explained in Dragon Age 3) and that they've managed to flip the renegade Templar faction into the underdog. Not that surprising though with all the hints of mage things down the line.

 
Meh. This book sounds like one long celebration of awesome, herioic mages enjoying success upon success. Honestly I'm no longer keen on buying it. I liked the Templars, but now it seems they've been reduced to the lame imperial remnant getting mopped up by the Jedi.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[Silfren]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So, let me get this straight.

• The Seekers are split in two, a bunch supporting the Divine and a bunch supporting the Lord Seeker.
• The Templar split in two, a bunch (and from what I gather, the Knight-Vigilant) supporting the Divine and a bunch supporting the Lord Seeker.
• The Divine (essentially the Chantry) wishes to assist the mages.
• Alistair has shown support for the mages by struggling against the Templar.
• The Tranquil can be cured.
• Orlais has fallen apart.
  
  So in the end, this means:
• Mages have a decent backing behind them.
• Templar are leaderless after the death fo the Lord Seeker.
• Templar don't have much backing.
• Rite of Tranquility isn't very viable anymore.
• Mages will have difficulty sustaining Circle Towers without the Tranquil to support them.
• Templar barely have any resources to sustain a war.
• Orlais is defenseless.

Am I right? Sounds to me that within one novel, they've established a lot of changes (which will confuse the hell out of the player if it's not fully explained in Dragon Age 3) and that they've managed to flip the renegade Templar faction into the underdog. Not that surprising though with all the hints of mage things down the line.

 
Meh. This book sounds like one long celebration of awesome, herioic mages enjoying success upon success. Honestly I'm no longer keen on buying it. I liked the Templars, but now it seems they've been reduced to the lame imperial remnant getting mopped up by the Jedi.

That's not quite the case.  The above quoted portion is an oversimplification.  I wouldn't use it as a basis for choosing not to read the book. 

[RagingCyclone]

@Silfren---don't forget the night in the tavern where they instead sleep in the stable. Neither mages or Templars are highly regarded by the commonfolk. They are both looked upon as magic wielders just of differing degrees.

[Silfren]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Not to mention with Ferelden being a feudal monarchy, his support wont mean much unless a majority of the nobles support his stance as well

Right.  Otherwise Alistair will be fighting a war on two fronts, trying to dredge up support for mages within his own immediate soldiers, while facing potential opposition from the arlings and teyrnirs.  He'd end up triggering another civil war if he wasn't careful.  After all, with the Divine being positioned in Orlais of all places, supporting the Divine could put him in a precarious position.

[Silfren]

RagingCyclone wrote...

@Silfren---don't forget the night in the tavern where they instead sleep in the stable. Neither mages or Templars are highly regarded by the commonfolk. They are both looked upon as magic wielders just of differing degrees.

I don't agree that that's how templars are generally regarded.  What you saw where three mages being defended by a templar who made it clear she wouldn't tolerate mages under her guard being attacked without cause. That's why they were angry at Evangeline.  It had nothing at all to do with thinking of her as just a different kind of magic-wielder.  She was defending the mages, and that damned her in their eyes, not least because as a templar, they expected her to sympathize with the drunken mob against the mages.  Witness the leader of the mob exclaiming, "You of all people should know what they are."  The rest of the whole exchange just illustrates the rest of my point, though: they all firmly believe that the mages are cursed by the Maker and killing them would be doing the Maker's work.  "How long are we going to stand by and let this evil fester?  The Maker would not have it!"

By and large templars are seen as people who protect the general population against mages.  The only place we've seen where templars were disliked by a significant portion was Kirkwall, which was a bit of a special case, in that the knight-commander had allowed her templars to abuse their power to such a degree that she squandered the goodwill of both the peasantry and the nobility.  Even so, there's still the issue of centuries' worth of tradition and doctrine.  Historically, the religion of the land has taught that mages are cursed, that they are dangerous and unpredictable.  This is how the general population has been taught to regard mages.  At the same time, the templars have come down through the ages as the only guard force capable of countering mage power.  You're always going to have pockets of people who are moderates, and other pockets who are completely sympathetic to total mage freedom, but centuries of religious indoctrination don't evaporate overnight.

And there's no getting around the fact that Kirkwall definitely pushed a lot of people over to the templar camp.  No small number of people are going to look at Anders' destruction of the Chantry and the killing of Grand Cleric and see nothing beyond it except that everything they've ever been taught about mages was spot on.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 décembre 2011 - 09:06 .

[Huntress]

"The Divine, as we know, is a close friend of Leliana and she is interested in reform for the mages. But traditions and many people who do not share that belief are in her way. In fact, she aids the mages in the book"

ok danm.. why the divine has to do such a thing?? WTH is wrong people!!! how will any of my future hero's gonna kill her now... if they discover that the divine is trying to make things better for mages... There goes my 2 1/2 years of wanting to kill BOTH divines..of course aiding The mages doesn't mean she agrees to allow mages taking power and doing nasty things to people, my wardens are agaisnt such a practice and so are my hawkes, Mages or not. Can't wait to get my hands on the book... none in here London, Ontario.. it sucks... I know!

Orlais is not defenceless by any lenth, they have the Chevaliers elite unit.
the templars are the chantry militare force.

Modifié par Huntress, 23 décembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[Silfren]

Huntress wrote...

"The Divine, as we know, is a close friend of Leliana and she is interested in reform for the mages. But traditions and many people who do not share that belief are in her way. In fact, she aids the mages in the book"

ok danm.. why the divine has to do such a thing?? WTH is wrong people!!! how will any of my future hero's gonna kill her now... if they discover that the divine is trying to make things better for mages... There goes my 2 1/2 years of wanting to kill BOTH divines..of course aiding The mages doesn't mean she agrees to allow mages taking power and doing nasty things to people, my wardens are agaisnt such a practice and so are my hawkes, Mages or not. Can't wait to get my hands on the book... none in here London, Ontario.. it sucks... I know!

Orlais is not defenceless by any lenth, they have the Chevaliers elite unit.
the templars are the chantry militare force.

Problem being that Orlais is currently in the midst of a civil war.  They're a little preoccupied without having to deal with a conflict between the Chantry, mages, and templars.

[Gervaise]

People's reaction to mages isn't just based on chantry teaching. The villagers were angry partly because they had heard of the attempt by a mage on the Divine's life but also because of a local family that had been killed by the daughter of the family who was a mage, who set fire to their home. I think she may well have been the same mage that Cole went to see in the White Spire dungeon, who initially claimed her actions were not deliberate and then admitted that she had lied and she had enjoyed seeing them burn. What her family had done to make her do this is not specified but from the villagers point of view a popular local farmer had been burnt to death through the actions of his mage daughter along with the rest of his family. Incidents like this just reinforce chantry teaching and account for why mages are mistrusted even when not in positions of power. If you add in the big bad nation of Tevinter and folk memory of the time when they ruled the whole of Thedas, mages will have an uphill struggle to convince the wider population of the merits of their argument for freedom from chantry/templar control.

[megski]

Gervaise wrote...

People's reaction to mages isn't just based on chantry teaching. The villagers were angry partly because they had heard of the attempt by a mage on the Divine's life but also because of a local family that had been killed by the daughter of the family who was a mage, who set fire to their home. I think she may well have been the same mage that Cole went to see in the White Spire dungeon, who initially claimed her actions were not deliberate and then admitted that she had lied and she had enjoyed seeing them burn. What her family had done to make her do this is not specified but from the villagers point of view a popular local farmer had been burnt to death through the actions of his mage daughter along with the rest of his family. Incidents like this just reinforce chantry teaching and account for why mages are mistrusted even when not in positions of power. If you add in the big bad nation of Tevinter and folk memory of the time when they ruled the whole of Thedas, mages will have an uphill struggle to convince the wider population of the merits of their argument for freedom from chantry/templar control.

I thought this was a good example of what a templar SHOULD have done (when they're in the inn).  I think the biggest issue with the public and mages is fear more so than hatred.  And you're right, these people are afraid or angry because of their personal experiences, more so than the chantry teachings.  I think its Rhys or Wynne that mentions it along the way, but most people can't read, so I doubt they've taken the time to read and interpret the chant or any other teachings to come to a conclusion themselves.  I also think local people like this would also rely more on personal experiences instead of hearsay.  I think Evangeline doesn't become sympathetic, but instead loses her fear of the mages.  

[Brockololly]

Silfren wrote...
Problem being that Orlais is currently in the midst of a civil war.  They're a little preoccupied without having to deal with a conflict between the Chantry, mages, and templars.

Does the book go into any detail as to the nature of this Orlesian civil war, like who is involved in it or what its all about? Does it involve the Templars/Mages or is it something completely separate?

[RagingCyclone]

Brokololly...some of the nobles are mentioned by name...nothing to do with mages/Templars..it's a real civil war along some sort of political scheme.

[Dean_the_Young]

Huntress wrote...

"The Divine, as we know, is a close friend of Leliana and she is interested in reform for the mages. But traditions and many people who do not share that belief are in her way. In fact, she aids the mages in the book"

ok danm.. why the divine has to do such a thing?? WTH is wrong people!!! how will any of my future hero's gonna kill her now... if they discover that the divine is trying to make things better for mages... There goes my 2 1/2 years of wanting to kill BOTH divines..of course aiding The mages doesn't mean she agrees to allow mages taking power and doing nasty things to people, my wardens are agaisnt such a practice and so are my hawkes, Mages or not. Can't wait to get my hands on the book... none in here London, Ontario.. it sucks... I know!

Why stop now? You were quite happy to act on poor/misinformation and assumptions for the last few years... just ignore this and keep it up! You can do it!

[Augustei]

Hope Celene wasn't killed primarily for refusing to invade Ferelden =(

[Blacklash93]

Finished the book. Pretty good read, actually. Definitely the best written out of Gaider's three novels.

One interesting detail from the book is that it mentions Val Royaeux being attacked by dragons in the past. This probably ties into the Dawn of the Seeker anime film.

[Maria13]

Still enjoying this... Noting very carefully references to Oghren the Hero (gender neutral) and of course there is Wynne (and Shale, who would have thought! But she rocks...) and Leliana but no mention of Alistair or Zev... Though I've read the Fiona bits (couldn't resist reading ahead).

[Gervaise]

Well Zev has been doing his own single handed revolution and reformation of the crows and as a consequence has been moving about a bit, so Wynne and Co probably lost touch. As for Alistair, we don't as yet know whether or not the Asunder Warden made Alistair king, did the Dark Ritual or spared Loghain, so either way Alistair could be dead or languishing in Kirkwall as a drunk. I rather suspect though that in the Asunder world Alistair was made king and is therefore rather heavily engaged in other matters - though I'm sure he won't be sorry the mages are free of templar control or that Orlesians are too busy fighting each other to think about invading Ferelden. It was a nice touch that Wynne was so emphatically a Ferelden patriot.

[Maria13]

It was.

I made her a Ferelden patriot in my stories about her. As a young mage she's pleased to be speaking Fereldan again after Ramille's failed coup, in Dark Ritual she argues with the captain of the Orleisian Grey Wardens that he should release Alistair and the Hero.

[jlb524]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Hope Celene wasn't killed primarily for refusing to invade Ferelden =(

She wasn't killed, IIRC.

She's not even in Orlais during the events of the novel.

[Augustei]

Maria13 wrote...

Still enjoying this... Noting very carefully references to Oghren the Hero (gender neutral) and of course there is Wynne (and Shale, who would have thought! But she rocks...) and Leliana but no mention of Alistair or Zev... Though I've read the Fiona bits (couldn't resist reading ahead).

Whats said about Oghren?

jlb524 wrote...

She wasn't killed, IIRC.

She's not even in Orlais during the events of the novel.

Does it say where she is or what shes been up to?

[Maria13]

Wynne says something along the lines of sobriety not being necessary for everything... "I once knew this drunken dwarf and..."

[jlb524]

Oh wait, the Empress is in Orlais but not in the capital.

Apparently, she left the capital to go east and fight an elven rebellion.  However, the rebellion may have been only a rumor started by the Grand Duke Gaspard to lure her out of the capital.

By the end of the book, there are rumors that the Empress is dead but we don't know for sure.

Modifié par jlb524, 24 décembre 2011 - 07:54 .