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[Augustei]

So I take it this Grand Duke Gaspard is fighting for control of the throne. There any other contenders mentioned?

[Obsidian Gryphon]

XxDeonxX wrote...

So I take it this Grand Duke Gaspard is fighting for control of the throne. There any other contenders mentioned?

Think he's the only major contender. There would be, of course, lesser nobles he convinced to follow him.

I doubt the death of the Lord Seeker (fast on the heels of declared war) would change anything within the Order. It would instead reinforce their determination to rein in / stamp out the mages and in turn rally the loyalist Templars. Whoever takes over would surely "demand" Devine Justina publicly denounced mages and declare a witch hunt across Thedas. This would put Justina in a difficult position. Refuse and the Seekers might be nutty enough to attempt to seize control of the Chantry by "nominating" a puppet or they could just hold her hostage ( "protection" against further attempted assassinations. After all, there's already one templar attempt on her life, using a mage as the scapegoat). Or she could agree and attempt to work behind the scene to resolve the conflict. I'm holding the refusal view, the Seekers attempt to capture her but she escape, ending with contradictory messages thereafter declared across Thedas and Chantry. This would fall in line with Varric's comment on the state of the Chantry in DA II. 

I'm also wondering if the Seekers would ignore the largesse given to the Grey Wardens to try to take in those mages within GW ranks. I doubt the GW would take kindly to that. If the Seekers were dumb enough to do so, they would essentially force the GW to get involve. That means the mages would get considerable formidable military backing, which they are sorely in need of.  

Another thought, would Tewinter meddle? With an eye to regaining their lost Imperium? It's just as well they're shackled in a war with the Qunari. They cannot fight on 2 fronts but they could offer peripheral support...for a price.

Would the Fereldens offer 'unacknowledged" support by allowing safe haven along the western border? Close an eye and pretend the mages were merely refugees escaping the civil war in Orleis.  

[congealeddgtllvr]

 I actually liked this book.  Technically and stylistically this is Gaider's best so far.  I also liked the way the politics were done, and this is from someone who absolutely hated the way politics were handled in DA2.  

I appreciated the conversations about Orlais' issues, and how they were all hearsay and rumor.  I hope the next game will focus on this stuff too and not just the mages and the templars.  I liked how instead of the subtlety-of-a-sledgehammer presentation we got from DA2, there was some nuance and complexity.  I liked how Rhys was basically being manipulated by various women in his life that cared more about their political goals than his welfare and how he ended up taking charge somewhat (and ended up with a woman who actually did care for him).  

My concern is that, yes, the templars are pretty much teh bad guyz ZOMG.  My only hope is characters like Adrian, a thoroughly despicable person whose existence hopefully indicates DA3 will not be just a story about virtuous mages overcoming adversity.  Her actions just go to show that the Libertarians do not care one bit about mages' welfare and are only interested in power.  But I liked how she never cackles, but rather is always convinced that what she is doing is moral.  

Overall this gave me more hope for DA3 having a decent story.  And I'm almost positive the part about hoping this situation wouldn't be as terrible as the time dragons attacked Val Royeaux was a meta-comment from Gaider, saying that he hoped his book wouldn't be as bad as the anime.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 25 décembre 2011 - 04:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

So, in the end, what purpose did Dragon Age 2 serve other than establishing Hawke as not being capable of doing anything? I'm not angered or disappointed, I greatly appreciated Hawke being powerless in the ever growing conflict that surrounds everybody around him/her, though from what I'm seeing here it seems like Hawke did absolutely nothing to start the war and there's no purpose for the game's finale.

All this talk about him changing the world from multiple characters and how he/she, Meredith or Anders are responsible for the Templar/Mage war seems to all have been pointless and it indicates that the Divine and Cassandra have no idea what the hell they are looking for.

Flemeth also needs to get her prophetic powers checked out, the world never trembled and no change was brought forth.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 décembre 2011 - 05:40 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

"The rebellion in Kirkwall" is referenced several times, and it is implied that it has the mages all worked up throughout Thedas. In the conversation that leads to the vote to break away, the person leading the discussion says things like "Kirkwall proves there is no middle way" and that she understands why Anders did what he did. So it played some role.

Cassandra thinks Hawke can get the templars or the mages to back down since he or she helped them at a crucial time. That is my understanding. Hawke was just horribly integrated into the universe though as far as I'm concerned.

[jlb524]

Dave of Canada wrote...
So, in the end, what purpose did Dragon Age 2 serve other than establishing Hawke as not being capable of doing anything?

From my understanding, because of what happened in Kirkwall:

1)  The Libertarians were inspired to actively consider breaking away from the Chantry/Circle entirely (instead of just talking about what a great idea it might be).  This led to them voting on this a few times until finally that measure was passed at the end of Asunder.

2)  The Templars grew increasingly fearful that something like Kirkwall would happen again and they cracked down harder on the mages throughout Thedas.

3)  The Divine decided to work with some mages (Wynne and the Aequitarians) in order to reform the Circle.  

Kirkwall stirred the nest, so to speak and led to these tensions that eventually caused the start of the war.  It showed moderates like Wynne that there definitely is something wrong with the system as it exists...which led to the alliance with the Divine for reform...which troubled the more conservative Templars even more and led to them cracking down harder...which led to more pissed off mages..etc.

Modifié par jlb524, 25 décembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[suemaw]

I really enjoyed the book, but I'm very frustrated at the number of questions it raises.

This is obviously another separation within the Chantry. Would most of the common folk as well as most heads of state support the Divine. It seems Justinia V has very powerful allies. The Templar Order will be divided between the Seekers and the Divine. The same may be true of the Seekers, Also what option is there for the mages, but to support the Divine and return to some sort of order. Alone, they will be overrun. It seem doubtful that the Tevinter Imperium would offer a solution. If the Aquitarians lead the rebellion, than turning to blood magic is not the answer.

As far as the Lord Seek dying, I doubt it will change much, Arnaud his second in command who seemed just as zealot will take over. He may be the primary antagonist for DA 3.

I hope we see more of Cole in the future and what kind of spirit he actually is/was. I think just like Justice/Vengeance depending on the type of person he interacts will it will shape him. Just as the Spirit of Faith has shaped by Wynne and now Evangeline. This can certainly add credit to the idea that Flemeth was possessed by a Spirit and not a demon and that her grief and personality transformed it/her.

Anyway, I really hope that there is a conclusion to Hawke's story as well as the warden's before the events of DA 3. Role-playing a mage, I see now that I'm in line with Wynne's point of view that you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. The idea of the Circle as it was needed to change, but not disappear. It should be a center of learning and training for mages with an open house policy, not a prison! Anyway, that's my too bits worth.

[lv12medic]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So, in the end, what purpose did Dragon Age 2 serve other than establishing Hawke as not being capable of doing anything? I'm not angered or disappointed, I greatly appreciated Hawke being powerless in the ever growing conflict that surrounds everybody around him/her, though from what I'm seeing here it seems like Hawke did absolutely nothing to start the war and there's no purpose for the game's finale.

All this talk about him changing the world from multiple characters and how he/she, Meredith or Anders are responsible for the Templar/Mage war seems to all have been pointless and it indicates that the Divine and Cassandra have no idea what the hell they are looking for.

Flemeth also needs to get her prophetic powers checked out, the world never trembled and no change was brought forth.

You just have to buy the Anime, the Comics and DA3, 4, 5, 6, and 8 to understand the purpose (unfortunately, 7 will be a pointless spinoff game). 

*edit* Oh yes, and also the mega Gaider anthology including the short story supplement that comes with the $500 collector's set *end edit*

Modifié par lv12medic, 25 décembre 2011 - 08:51 .

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So, in the end, what purpose did Dragon Age 2 serve other than establishing Hawke as not being capable of doing anything? I'm not angered or disappointed, I greatly appreciated Hawke being powerless in the ever growing conflict that surrounds everybody around him/her, though from what I'm seeing here it seems like Hawke did absolutely nothing to start the war and there's no purpose for the game's finale.

I still think Asunder would have been better served as the actual game of DA2 while the story of Hawke and Kirkwall should have been a book leading up to Asunder/DA2. I think the devs maybe wanted Kirkwall and DA2 to serve as a microcosm of Thedas, but it sounds like DA2 amounts to more like a little sidenote in terms of how everything goes down in Asunder. Nevermind how I don't really see at all how Hawke would be seen as a super important person in all of this. And certainly not the most important person in all of Dragon Age.

Dave of Canada wrote...
All this talk about him changing the world from multiple characters and how he/she, Meredith or Anders are responsible for the Templar/Mage war seems to all have been pointless and it indicates that the Divine and Cassandra have no idea what the hell they are looking for.

It almost makes me wonder if the writers have any clue where they're going with any of this. It goes back to how vague they are with most everything in terms of foreshadowing that mostly comes up empty, like the OGB /DR choice in Origins. Or in DA2, at the end, I still have no clue why Hawke is important or anything about the state of the world beyond extraordinarily vague generalizations on how the Chantry is in trouble  and Mages/Templars have generally "rebelled." They're being too vague to the extent that its not presenting an inherently interesting future to speculate on since its so nebulous that it could be just about anything.

Dave of Canada wrote...
Flemeth also needs to get her prophetic powers checked out, the world never trembled and no change was brought forth.

Again, I question whether BioWare knows where they're going with any of this or if they're simply drawing this stuff out as a big tease. Its a problem when they're so vague, Flemeth's ramblings or Morrigan's babbling in Witch Hunt are so cryptic and obscure they could literally be talking about anything. So the writers can basically shove anything in to fill these "prophecies" in the future cause they're so full of nothing right now.

Anyway, if all Flemeth/Morrigan were warning/prophesizing about was the stupid Mage/Templar war, I'd be massively disappointed. Thats it? Again, for me at least, its a matter of the payoff be equal to the buildup. They keep dragging this stuff out, teasing big stuff and have yet to do anything with it. Flemeth/Morrigan always seemed like they were up to events way more important and BIG on the grand scheme of things than the affairs of some annoying mortal mages and templars.

[twincast]

megski wrote...

I think the biggest issue with the public and mages is fear more so than hatred.

Really two sides of the same coin.

Anyway, just finished the book and loved it. *sniffle*

And I love me some Cole, yes I do.

And yes, Kirkwall may have been the initial spark, but the real **** hit the real fan in this softcover and of all the DA2 party members the three Hawkes strike me as the least important. The PC didn't even influence much of anything, let alone actually did something the others would not. No wonder only Anders got mentioned.

[EnforcerGREG]

I just finished the book now, it's definately the best one to date in my opinion.
 
I feel horrible about wynn though I felt she deserved a better sendoff. don't get me wrong sacrifycing herself for evangeline was exelent. But I had hoped we meet her again in DA3. The warden didn't even get to say goodbye we had better get the chance to pay our respects with the warden and the rest of the old gang at some point.


Im so happy about fiona being brought back. Part off me was thinking she'd be forgotten about at some point and the story of her and Alistair would shelved. why couldn't she be present when the demons do the mind reading thing then at least some others would know she's alistairs mother.

[jlb524]

twincast wrote...
And yes, Kirkwall may have been the initial spark, but the real **** hit the real fan in this softcover and of all the DA2 party members the three Hawkes strike me as the least important. The PC didn't even influence much of anything, let alone actually did something the others would not. No wonder only Anders got mentioned.

I don't think they can mention Hawke considering:

1)  The two possible choices at the end of DA2.  Unless the book assumes a pro-mage Hawke.  We know that Hawke is a symbol of...something to the mages and that something depends on the decision made at the end of DA2.  Assuming one side (those that sided with mages) would ****** off the others (those that sided with the templars).  It's probably best not to mention Hawke at all (nor the Warden beyond her being familiar to Wynne).

2)  If they plan future DA2 content with Hawke they wouldn't want to spoil what Hawke is doing at that time.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[Gervaise]

Flemeth said the world was on the brink of great change. I say that the Divine conceding that mages deserve better was itself a major change, given the Divine's over the preceding 1,000 years had established "traditional" thinking on the matter. The Circles going to the wall and mages having declared freedom from Chantry/Templar control was also a major change, likewise the Seekers/Templars breaking away and declaring independence of action. The empire of Orlais breaking apart is another major development that will likely result in great change and which many people under their rule will find frightening and disconcerting, particularly on the back of the mage/templar thing. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it was in just such an unsettled world that Andraste appeared and made drastic changes to the status quo so who knows where these events may lead.

Since at the time Flemeth made her statement none of these things seemed obviously on the horizon, I would say her prophetic powers are doing rather well. She also mentioned that both she and Hawke had a date with destiny. We know what Hawke did from then on but nothing about Flemeth. So I still wonder what "destiny" she was following.

[Melca36]

I don't get why people were expecting Hawke  to be mentioned in the book. Hawke is a game character. The game is not going to be accurate to the book. The book is not going to be accurate to the game.

Modifié par Melca36, 26 décembre 2011 - 08:34 .

[Blacklash93]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Flemeth also needs to get her prophetic powers checked out, the world never trembled and no change was brought forth.

Not yet. I wouldn't go assuming what she was pointing towards or when it will happen.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 décembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[twincast]

Melca36 wrote...

I don't get why people were expecting Hawke  to be mentioned in the book. Hawke is a game character. The game is not going to be accurate to the book. The book is not going to be accurate to the game.

Uhm, not my point to begin with. And even if it were, FYI your explanation makes zero sense.

[twincast]

Anyway, I read through the whole thread earlier today and there hasn't really been a discussion about Cole so far. (Who by the way obviously is on the back of the cover. Come to think about it, putting him and Lambert on it is also quite the interesting decision IMHO.)

So, what kind of spirit do you think he (originally) was? I'd say Compassion. Keeping the real Cole company and much of his inner dialog seems to me to point to it, but he could be almost any kind, no? And what would be the "corrupted" term for Compassion? (... Heh, Cole, Compassion, coincident?)

And Rhys says at the end that he thinks he killed those six mages himself, but it frankly makes much less sense to me than Cole having done it.

[Melca36]

twincast wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I don't get why people were expecting Hawke  to be mentioned in the book. Hawke is a game character. The game is not going to be accurate to the book. The book is not going to be accurate to the game.

Uhm, not my point to begin with. And even if it were, FYI your explanation makes zero sense.

Why would you expect to see hawke in the book? Hawke was created for a game. Thats why he is not mentioned.
Thats what what I meant.  

[PaxDragoon]

I was thinking Cole, newly aware of what he truly is, instead goes all Anders/Justice on the Lord Seeker instead of simply killing, setting him up as one of the antagonists for DA3.

[twincast]

Melca36 wrote...

Why would you expect to see hawke in the book? Hawke was created for a game. Thats why he is not mentioned.
Thats what what I meant.  

I fully understood what you wrote. *sigh* I'll try to make it clearer this time.

1) I did not at all expect to see him. And I didn't really expect a mention either, although one actually probably should, given how über-important the Champion supposedly is and the events at Kirkwall arguably are. My point is that despite Cassandra's odd claims to the contrary he isn't even worthy of being mentioned to begin with as he did naught of actual importance in DA2. Frankly, I was more surprised than anything by the book's characters mentioning Anders by name after having danced around the issue for a while before that.

2) Your argument doesn't hold against a sliver of scrutiny as the Hero of Ferelden gets mentioned several times. Not to mention that strictly speaking Wynne, Shale, Leliana, Justinia V and a couple of non-speaking cameos were technically also "created for a game".

Modifié par twincast, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[HiroVoid]

I guess Hawke isn't all that important then.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 27 décembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Blacklash93]

So Cole was a demon, right? Seeing as he was using blood magic (albeit subconsciously) to render himself invisible to others' perception and control Rhys I'd think so. Good spirits don't have that abillity as far as we know.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 27 décembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[jlb524]

twincast wrote...
2) Your argument doesn't hold against a sliver of scrutiny as the Hero of Ferelden gets mentioned several times. Not to mention that strictly speaking Wynne, Shale, Leliana, Justinia V and a couple of non-speaking cameos were technically also "created for a game".

Wynne mentions the Hero of Ferelden b/c she's personally familiar with them...no details are given about who the hero was or what they did (besides killed the Archdemon because...well...everyone's DA:O game ends with the death of the Archdemon).

Wynne can't mention Hawke in this manner as she doesn't know her/him.

Others can't mention Hawke in relation to what happened in Kirkwall since Hawke can decide to either support the mages or the templars and, as a result, will be seen as either a hero or a villian by both the templars and mages depending on that outcome.  If Hawke had to support the mages (or DG canonized that choice) then the Libertarians like Fiona and Adrian would have mentioned Hawke as being a symbol for mage freedom during all those times they spoke of Kirkwall.  

[megski]

Gervaise wrote...
It was a nice touch that Wynne was so emphatically a Ferelden patriot.

YES!  One of my favorite things by far!

[megski]

And the way the conflict was vaguely mentioned, I thought Hawke could have been mentioned also. The way the game builds Hawke up, you'd think he'd be mentioned. Which, I'm not disappointed that Hawke wasn't mentioned, as I'm not the biggest hawke fan really.

The only thing I'm wondering is what is Cole's significance in the story is. Another poster mentioned it above, but what is he? I think Cole is one of the more debatable characters/things. The impression I got, or formulated, was that he was some kind of abomination, but the demon is satisfied with being inside him, even living a mundane, lonely life like Cole's. Maybe the murders were the demon's way of feeling like it was real instead of that feeling being Cole's desire. But what was his role in everything? Just to kill the Lord Seeker? Maybe show readers exactly how deceiving demons can be? I guess I feel like, if Rhys got thrown in prison for speaking out against Wynne, then there would have been no need to have Cole. Wynne would still have gotten him out of trouble. Maybe some one can shed some light on the situation. I just feel like Cole's story was there to break up the main part of the story of Wynne and Rhys.