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[Pacifien]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Hm, thanks. I might need to see the passage for myself.

Although...invisibility now? I can't help wondering if Blood Magic is the new Force. "We are not the mages you're looking for." *finger-thwip*

Sometimes I wonder if Blood Magic is treated like some Dark Side equivalent to regular magic. I rather approved of Merrill's comment that Blood Magic was just magic like any other, just another source of power to draw upon when lyrium was unavailable. In which case, it was only how one uses that power that gives blood magic its bad connotations. I get the impression blood as a source of power is even stronger than lyrium, hence the potential to abuse it is greater. But anyway, that's totally off my point.

I don't think Blood Magic ever really came into it with Cole. His invisibility is a mind trick. He willed other people not to see him, and so they didn't. That's why the litany worked, because its purpose is to break that connection between spirit and man. In this instance, Lambert was breaking Cole's control over the Lord Seeker. I think it's left ambiguous if Cole ever had control over Rhys or not.

[Pacifien]

Maria13 wrote...
Still reading...

A quick aside mentions Brother Genetivi went mad... Does this mean that if you don't kill him no-one really believes Andraste's ashes have been discovered?

I read that differently. I read that there was only so much of Brother Genetivi's writing that Rhys could take before *Rhys* went mad.

[RagingCyclone]

@Pacifen...I disagree about Cole and blood magic...as early as the murder of the little girl Cole feels her blood keeps him from fading out of the world...so I think blood magic is a very big part of Cole's existence in this world.

[Pacifien]

RagingCyclone wrote...
@Pacifen...I disagree about Cole and blood magic...as early as the murder of the little girl Cole feels her blood keeps him from fading out of the world...so I think blood magic is a very big part of Cole's existence in this world.

While looking up the reference on Genetivi, I passed through the first conversation Lambert and Rhys have about Cole. Lambert says that a spirit would need to inhabit a body that could produce the blood magic for him or the spirit would need to manipulate another to do the magic for him. The implication is that Rhys did the killing for Cole, and it's worth noting that once Rhys makes the connection between Cole and the murders, there are no other murders. Cole has the chance to do it twice and relents both times because Cole knows Rhys wouldn't want it. In truth, without Rhys, Cole *couldn't* do it. That's if what Lambert was saying was correct.

But the other explanation is that the blood had nothing to do with it. It was how the people looked at Cole that was more important. In the last moment of their lives, Cole was the most important person in the entire world. Whatever type of spirit Cole was, he fed off that attention they gave him in those few moments as if it was that emotional connection that grounded him to this world and not the blood they shed. When he stopped killing, he didn't fade away. He felt himself slip into that darkness, particularly when he tapped deep into his power, but he was learning to fight back and keep himself grounded, probably because he had somehow made Rhys his entire reason for being at that point.

Which is sweet in a creepy Fade spirit kind of a way, I guess.

[RagingCyclone]

Ah...but the problem in that Rhys was the killer is when Cole shows up in Lambert's quarters with his dagger...Lambert calls him the demon...not Rhys...so I took from that it was Cole doing the killing all along and it was Lambert that convinced Rhys that he was the killer because that is what Lambert believed...whether it's true or not is unclear.

[Pacifien]

Well, yeah, Lambert always called Cole a demon. He thought Cole was controlling Rhys's mind and possession was going to come later. And so their last meeting probably was written for the reader to conclude that Cole was the killer all along, Rhys is a saint, Lambert was wrong, and Lambert was going to die. Which I actually thought was lame as an ending, which is why I shall now put my fingers in my ears and go lalelaleLALELALALALAIREJECTYOURREALITYandsubstitutemyown.

[megski]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Ah...but the problem in that Rhys was the killer is when Cole shows up in Lambert's quarters with his dagger...Lambert calls him the demon...not Rhys...so I took from that it was Cole doing the killing all along and it was Lambert that convinced Rhys that he was the killer because that is what Lambert believed...whether it's true or not is unclear.

Good point.  

And also, maybe Cole didn't need to commit anymore murders because some one could see him, Rhys.  So there was no desire to be 'real' because Rhys could see him whenever he decided to seek him out.  

[Maria13]

Pacifien wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
Still reading...

A quick aside mentions Brother Genetivi went mad... Does this mean that if you don't kill him no-one really believes Andraste's ashes have been discovered?

I read that differently. I read that there was only so much of Brother Genetivi's writing that Rhys could take before *Rhys* went mad.

Just re-read; your interpretation definitely makes more sense... The phrase is somewhat ambiguous as of itself but reading it again, I agree with you.

[Maria13]

Not quite finished the book yet. On the Rhys/Cole thing, could there be a gay subtext there? But then I guess there could be a gay subtext anywhere...

[twincast]

Well, it strikes me more as a substitute father-son relationship on both ends, but then again, there's a fetish for that after all.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Pacifien wrote...

I don't think Blood Magic ever really came into it with Cole. His invisibility is a mind trick. He willed other people not to see him, and so they didn't. That's why the litany worked, because its purpose is to break that connection between spirit and man. In this instance, Lambert was breaking Cole's control over the Lord Seeker. I think it's left ambiguous if Cole ever had control over Rhys or not.

Hrm. This part of the Litany's codex entry:

The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late.

And this is an item description of the Litany itself:

The Litany has the power to stun demons and stop mind-controlling blood magic if it is used at the moment the spell is cast.


Nothing about breaking connections, but rather preventing them from taking place. Not that it's a big deal, or that codices have been 100% correct in the past (and I suspect the description was specifically worded to allow for combat mechanics in the fight against Uldred), but interesting. While the text does focus on blood mages, it assumes mind control is only performed by maleficar and demons, since mind tricks are always evil (according to the Chantry. The Jedi disagree ). A spirit manipulating minds appears to be new.

[DreGregoire]

Uh... just figured I would weigh in here. On this blog is my response but it's endish book spoilerish.

http://social.biowar...10/blog/210923/

Modifié par DreGregoire, 28 décembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[RagingCyclone]

Pacifien wrote...

Well, yeah, Lambert always called Cole a demon. He thought Cole was controlling Rhys's mind and possession was going to come later. And so their last meeting probably was written for the reader to conclude that Cole was the killer all along, Rhys is a saint, Lambert was wrong, and Lambert was going to die. Which I actually thought was lame as an ending, which is why I shall now put my fingers in my ears and go lalelaleLALELALALALAIREJECTYOURREALITYandsubstitutemyown.

Well, you could look at it this way, that Rhys was mind controlled and actually was the murderer...and in the end Cole was actually convincing Lambert to kill himself...hey...it could happen that way.

[Maria13]

Or Lambert (who is unaware that he has some magic abilities like many templars who find they can develop templar powers without the lyrium) was actually the killer and Cole started to manifest through him... Then as Cole began to feel guilty about the connexion and the activities it is embroiling him in, he fixates on Rhys adopting him as his conscience... The violent father nightmare is actually Lambert's own suppressed childhood memory.

Ummm what can I point to in support of this? Lambert has the opportunity and the inclination to carry out the killings... Many despots, dictatorial personalities are known to have had 'daddy' issues... There is a suggestion that using phylacteries IS blood magic, so templars, or some of them, could conceivably be the very thing they accuse the mages of being and therefore as susceptible to possession as their charges... The book, front cover, Lambert, back... Shadowy Cole?

[Gervaise]

Lambert cannot be the one responsible for the murders because he only took over after the attempt on the Divine's life. If any templar could be responsible it is Ser Arnaud, who after all stabbed Rhys in the stomach for no good reason so far as I could see. In fact I thought he was responsible for the death of Pharamond until Adrian as good as confessed to it. However, I tend to the view that Lambert got it wrong and convinced Rhys that he was responsible because Rhys was already having his own doubts about his relationship with Cole. Cole did the murders himself and whilst the victim's consciousness of his presence is important to maintaining his grip on the mortal world, I think blood magic is also involved. Blood magic is the only magic associated with mind control such as Cole exhibits and also helps to bridge the veil far more potently than lyrium or normal mana. Why blood does this and why it attracts demons/spirits is something I would love to see explained in the future.

As a side issue, I was wondering whether having a spirit cohabiting your body would make any difference to any children the person had. So, for example, would the offspring of human with an indwelling faith spirit be the counterpart to the old god baby? It was an idea I had because Evangeline is still of child bearing age.

[WhiteKnyght]

I haven't read Asunder yet, my copy has just shipped today.

But from what I've seen and heard, I wonder when people die they become the spirits and demons that inhabit the Fade.

As for why they(or at least Justice) have no apparent memory of being human. Maybe it's dependent on whether they are a spirit or demon. Some people accept their death when it comes, like Wynne does, and perhaps they become the spirits and relinquish all that they had in life, including their memories. But those who feel they haven't done enough or just don't want to die retain their memories out of their attachment, and become demons. Since demons are sneaky and deceptive you'd never get a straight or honest answer out of them anyway.

What virtue/sin they represent could be dependent on the person's personality in life. There are two sides to every emotion. Like love is good, lust is bad. Justice is good, vengeance is bad. And so forth. So a person whose greatest trait was passion could become either a spirit of love or a demon of desire.

Just a theory anyway.

As for how it would apply to this Cole guy, perhaps he was unknowingly able to use blood magic to prevent himself from crossing over to the Fade and completely changing into a spirit/demon. And performing sacrifices for blood stalls the process, which is why he keeps killing.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 29 décembre 2011 - 06:15 .

[Urzon]

I haven't read the book yet, but what type of spirit/demon is Cole exactly? I would find it terribly ironic if he was some type of Faith spirit. The more people could see him and acknowledge he was there, the more powerful he got. The reverse Tinkerbell existence if you will. They are only there as long as you (or people) believe they are there.

Modifié par Urzon, 29 décembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Gervaise]

But there is definitely a connection between the frame of mind of the person and their ability to see him (with the possible exception of Rhys). The people he murders are being kept in the dungeons. He senses them when they are brought in. This is why I felt it was linked to fear or despair or possibly a desire to be free of it all. May be like him, they just wished the world would go away and leave them alone. Later, at the fortress, he is able to locate a girl in hiding and it definitely says he senses her despair. However, on this occasion he stops himself from killing her, partly because he knows Rhys wouldn't like it but also possibly because he knows this is not what she really wants. There is also the fact that she is not a mage, although there is no implication this has any influence on his decision.

I am currently re-reading the book and there is great emphasis on the music that Cole can hear when he is near the rift and also the music the mages can hear when Wynne performs the ritual with the lyrium and they enter the Fade. Music is strongly associated with the Fade. with spirits and with lyrium. When any of these are corrupted it would appear to continue to produce a song but one that had an adverse rather than beneficial effect on those that hear it, certainly if it is taken away. The demon even hints that it knows what Cole is and whilst it is trying to manipulate Rhys, it is likely that just as the Spirit Mediums and Cole can sense demons/spirits, the reverse is true.

May be Cole is some form of faith spirit, so it is all down to belief that determines how he is perceived. Cole wished to be invisible, particularly to templars, so to most people he is invisible. Rhys sees him as a tormented innocent, so that is what he remains in his eyes and why he seemed unable to help himself. Lambert perceives him as a dangerous demon and that is what gives him the strength to attack him. I do find Cole intreiging and hope more explanations will be forthcoming about what he is.

[WhiteKnyght]

I just got my copy an hour ago. Pretty cool so far.

I can see why Cassandra needed to interrogate Varric. Everybody believes the events in Kirkwall was a rebellion, when in fact the real truth is Anders and Meredith's BS and whatever your choice for Hawke is. A very excellent way to fit the events of Asunder into the choice driven DA story

[Drz]

Is the man on the cover of the book supposingly this Lord Seeker?

[MichaelFinnegan]

Lawliet89 wrote...

Hey everyone

Since some of us have managed to secure the book... and read it before it's even published, we could have some sort of dicussion. I'll share details of the book to whoever is interested.

I ordered the book just a minute ago. Won't be able to read it for a while though. It'd be a good way for me to reenter the world of Dragon Age, I think.

Some things we learnt:
- It is possible to reverse the rite of tranquility. I quote "I realised early on that Tranquility wasn't repairable on this side of the Fade. It needed to be done from the other side. A spirit had to bridge the gap - it could only do that if it knew exactly where to look. The Rite renders the Tranqui invisible to spirits." The Rite renders a Tranquil undesirable to a demon because to them, a Tranquil is nothing more than an inanimate object that will resist possession. So by luring a spirit or demon to attempt to possess a Tranquil, the act of trying will bridge the gap between a Tranquil and the Fade and they will be cured.

That is interesting. But what exactly does it mean to be "cured" of being a tranquil? Does the person regain his lost emotions, so that he is "whole" again? And/or does he regain his ability to practice magic? And, finally, does the book talk about specific instances of tranquil being "cured?" Or is it merely someone's hypothesis that it could be done?

- The Seekers of Truth seems to be more complicated than we think. Apparently, some time during the twentieth year of the Divine Age, "the Nevarran Accord was signed [where] the Seekers of Truth lowered [their] banner to serve as the right hand of the Chantry and together, [they] created the Circle of Magi." The Seekers are led by a Lord Seeker and it seems like they are the "overarching" authority of Templars all over Thedas. The Lord Seeker seems to have dominion over all the Kight Commanders and is essentially their "boss". Confusingly, Leliana is also part of the Seekers as is Cassandra Pentaghast but they seem to be another "faction" of the Seekers more loyal to the Divine perhaps. I'm not entirely sure if these are two distinct organisations or factions within the same "Seeker".

Does the book talk about what the original goal was for the Seekers of Truth before they joined the Chantry? We sort of know what the templars were up to before they came under the Chantry. Or is it that the Seekers were a part of the templar order itself, or at least they came out from that order?

[Thelzar]

I finished the book yesterday, and I think it is Gaider's best book so far.

The book fit my games nicely, but it felt it a bit odd that the story danced around the Hero and the Champion - the book read almost like Wynne and Shale was the main characters in Ferelden - but off course, that cannot be helped.

I liked that the characters had some ambiguity to them, for instance the Lord Seeker was on to Cole before Rhys, Wynne seemed a bit cold and distant, Rhys seemed to drag his feet through the story, and the Adrian the redheaded feisty mage turned out to be a total nutter. I did not see any of that coming. Good show:D

Asunder and Legacy has renewed my interest in DA a great deal, so I really want to see the continuation, but perhaps not as the main story for DA3. Another game with the templars vs mages as the main story could be tiresome.

[Gervaise]

Something I'd also like to know about would be how the sword was constructed that Lambert uses which seems of itself to be able to dispel magic. Also the codex about the Seekers in DA2 says they are able resist the effects of blood magic, in particular its control of the mind. Is this just by the use of the Litany of Adralla or is there something in their training that gives greater resistance? Lambert seems to have the ability to sense Cole right at the beginning and the latter is afraid that he will also be able to see him, so is the Lord Seeker the templar equivalent of a Spirit Medium?

[WhiteKnyght]

Made it about 140 or so pages in.

Seeing Wynne and Adrian get into a drinking contest was funny.

And its nice to see that Wynne hasn't changed. Still a preachy know-it-all who lets her indoctrination show. She sounds more like a loyalist than an aequetarian.

One thing that I'm curious about was how she was able to find Rhys. Unless the Templars keep tabs and records of what happens to Mage children.

Rhys reminds me of Anders in Awakening. Funny, sarcastic, with a loathing of Chantry authority.

And his encounter with Evangeline remind me of how Rylock was always the Templar chasing Anders.

Lord Seeker Lambert seems like a cross between Genevieve and Meredith, except he has man parts. His orders to Evangeline are not unlike Gen's orders to Duncan, and his bigotry makes Meredith's look small.

It also sounds like First Enchanter Edmonde is getting too old and needs to retire.

________________________________________________________________________

I also wonder at how the Templars are going to get by without their daily doses of Lyrium swilling.

Chantry and Country law restrict lyrium trade to only the Chantry. And if the Templars break off, they don't count.

And there is only so much illegal lyrium that smugglers can produce.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 31 décembre 2011 - 01:36 .