728 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Also curious if Evangeline is dead if you killed Wynne in Origins.

I believe the better question is if Wynne or Evangeline can actually be killed while that spirit is inside of them. If their life is tied to it's presence they could very well be immortal until they force it into someone else.

[bluebullets]

Fiona was in the calling? Can you refresh my memory?
I read it, bu it was over a year ago.. How was she involved in the calling?

[WhiteKnyght]

bluebullets wrote...

Fiona was in the calling? Can you refresh my memory?
I read it, bu it was over a year ago.. How was she involved in the calling?

She was the mage in Genevive's group. Young, fiesty, and had a serious dislike of Maric for the greater part of the novel. But she ended up sleeping with him twice and conceived a child some believe to be Alistair.

She was also somehow cured of the taint after everything happened. Which explains how she's still alive and never had to go on her own calling.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 01 janvier 2012 - 04:31 .

[bluebullets]

Can someone link me to a summary of the calling? I can't remember anything except that maric goes into the deep roads and has intercourse with someone. Oh, and there is some conflict with mages that try to kill him?

@Grey, oh, that was fiona!? Oh! Thanks. 

Modifié par bluebullets, 01 janvier 2012 - 04:31 .

[WhiteKnyght]

bluebullets wrote...

Can someone link me to a summary of the calling? I can't remember anything except that maric goes into the deep roads and has intercourse with someone. Oh, and there is some conflict with mages that try to kill him?

@Grey, oh, that was fiona!? Oh! Thanks. 

I have a theory as to how she was cured of her taint.

You see, while in the deep roads, Maric was drinking potions that First Enchanter Remille gave him on a daily basis. These potions -- as Remille claimed -- would make him resistent to the Taint(something he likely learned from the Architect). The potion was proved to work when Maric got bit by a Genlock and could feel the corruption in him, but he didn't become tainted.

My theory, is that Maric still had the stuff in his system during the times when he boinked Fiona. And that he transmitted it into her and it was what cured her corruption. Normally female Grey Wardens aren't able to conceive at all, or so I've heard from D-Gai. But the only anomaly we know of that could alter that is Remille's anti-taint potions.

[The_11thDoctor]

One of the best books I've read in a while. Just waiting for the audio edition to drop.

[Gervaise]

A small point but I've just realised there are actually too many First Enchanters in existence. Since Kirkwall's Circle was anulled and we know that Orsino did not survive, it hardly seems likely it would have been re-established so soon afterwards. Starkhaven's Circle also was no more since it had burnt down and that is why they were transferred to Kirkwall. So already the number of non-Tevinter Circles should have been reduced by two, yet there were apparently 15 First Enchanters present at the White Spire, plus 4 who couldn't attend. (unless it was actually meant to read 15 less 4 non attendees).

If Knight Commanders correspond to Circles then there must have been 15 Circles under the control of the White Divine, since this is the number that the Lord Seeker gathers together. This still seems too many, even if Meredith was immediately replaced, although with both Freemarches Circles gone and most of the other apostate mages in the city of Kirkwall also destroyed, one wonders why they still needed such a heavy presence there. Any new apprentices would surely be sent to the nearest available Circle, probably Ferelden since that was trying to rebuild and might have sufficiently restored hierachy among the mages to cope with their education. Just a thought.

Further thought - what happened to the tranquil in Kirkwall and then later all the other tranquil after the disolution of the Circles? There is no mention of tranquil at Andoral's Reach.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

Can someone link me to a summary of the calling? I can't remember anything except that maric goes into the deep roads and has intercourse with someone. Oh, and there is some conflict with mages that try to kill him?

@Grey, oh, that was fiona!? Oh! Thanks. 

I have a theory as to how she was cured of her taint.

You see, while in the deep roads, Maric was drinking potions that First Enchanter Remille gave him on a daily basis. These potions -- as Remille claimed -- would make him resistent to the Taint(something he likely learned from the Architect). The potion was proved to work when Maric got bit by a Genlock and could feel the corruption in him, but he didn't become tainted.

My theory, is that Maric still had the stuff in his system during the times when he boinked Fiona. And that he transmitted it into her and it was what cured her corruption. Normally female Grey Wardens aren't able to conceive at all, or so I've heard from D-Gai. But the only anomaly we know of that could alter that is Remille's anti-taint potions.

I wondered if the GWs replicated the potions? To use on those approaching their Calling. I don't supoose they had tried it and found it didn't work. Duncan should have known about this. Otherwise he wouldn't have told Alistair about the recurrance of nightmares that inidcated he was near his end.

[twincast]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I have a theory as to how she was cured of her taint.

You see, while in the deep roads, Maric was drinking potions that First Enchanter Remille gave him on a daily basis. These potions -- as Remille claimed -- would make him resistent to the Taint(something he likely learned from the Architect). The potion was proved to work when Maric got bit by a Genlock and could feel the corruption in him, but he didn't become tainted.

My theory, is that Maric still had the stuff in his system during the times when he boinked Fiona. And that he transmitted it into her and it was what cured her corruption. Normally female Grey Wardens aren't able to conceive at all, or so I've heard from D-Gai. But the only anomaly we know of that could alter that is Remille's anti-taint potions.

Please no. That would just be tacky.
First of all, it's very hard for a GW of either sex to conceive children and nigh impossible if both partners are Grey Wardens, but not absolutely impossible.
And I believe it was the Architect drawing out all the taint onto the surface at once and when that got cleansed away there was simply nothing left inside of her (and Maric, as IIRC his potions had run out) to restart spreading.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

twincast wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I have a theory as to how she was cured of her taint.

You see, while in the deep roads, Maric was drinking potions that First Enchanter Remille gave him on a daily basis. These potions -- as Remille claimed -- would make him resistent to the Taint(something he likely learned from the Architect). The potion was proved to work when Maric got bit by a Genlock and could feel the corruption in him, but he didn't become tainted.

My theory, is that Maric still had the stuff in his system during the times when he boinked Fiona. And that he transmitted it into her and it was what cured her corruption. Normally female Grey Wardens aren't able to conceive at all, or so I've heard from D-Gai. But the only anomaly we know of that could alter that is Remille's anti-taint potions.

Please no. That would just be tacky.
First of all, it's very hard for a GW of either sex to conceive children and nigh impossible if both partners are Grey Wardens, but not absolutely impossible.
And I believe it was the Architect drawing out all the taint onto the surface at once and when that got cleansed away there was simply nothing left inside of her (and Maric, as IIRC his potions had run out) to restart spreading.

No wait. I don't think it's the potions. Before they got out of the Deep Roads, Maric, Fiona and Duncan stopped by the dwarven statue (where the LotD had brought them) to look for supplies. It was at one of the side caves where Fiona found a basin with magical dweomer and they cleaned themselves with water from it. Maric cleaned himself, the water became dirty but it cleared by itself before he helped to clean Fiona.

The reversal of the taint  had to come from that basin. Not the potions although they probably did prevent his getting poisoned during the battles with the darkspawn.

P.S. Both Maric and Fiona slept in the water from the overturned basin. They probably cleansed themselves of the taint without realising it. Fiona may not have added 1 + 1 and the GWs probably never figured it out.

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 01 janvier 2012 - 05:47 .

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...
This is how I feel it'll be handled, I have hope otherwise but so far we've seen pretty much nothing redeeming about Flemeth (except she saves both protagonists, though that's simply to manipulate them) and the only thing we know about Morrigan vs Flemeth is that Morrigan is opposing Flemeth (for what? Let's keep them guessing!!!11).

Thats my major problem with so much of the Flemeth/Morrigan related material in the games, is how much is left unexplained. Its fine to have that to some extent, as the mystery behind what Morrigan and FLemeth are doing is part of their appeal. But when you get to something like Witch Hunt or the Dark Ritual conversation in Origins, it felt incredibly forced in the writers keeping everything nebulous and vague for the sake of keeping the player in the dark. It didn't feel like Morrigan talking there it felt like Gaider wagging his finger a la Dennis Nedry in Jurassic Park, trying to tease. But especially in Witch Hunt, it made no sense for Morrigan not to be more forthcoming, especially if she lets the romancing Warden follow her through the Eluvian, where presumably they'd figure it out. Unless its played as a big GOTCHA moment and they kill off or otherwise take the Warden out of the picture by doing that.

It just gets to the core of my problem with all of Dragon Age right now: Mysteries are all well and good and can provide great anticipation and excitement in literature, movies, TV and games. I just feel like with Dragon Age, its kind of like questing in a sandbox game like Skyrim; you start out in one localized area and maybe try to finish all the quests as you get them. But eventually they start piling up and you forget about some and you end up unintentionally finishing quests before you even know you had them in the first place, or you turn in quests to little fanfare after having forgotten about why you were doing the quest in the first place, as you had more new quests dumped on you in the interim.

Its not unlike all the unresolved plot lines and "mysteries" in Dragon Age that have been left dangling only to go unresolved in a timely fashion. To the extent that even if they resolve something like Morrigan and Flemeth's plotline, I question whether it will be anywhere near as impactful with some new PC as opposed to somebody more involved like the Warden. Or how they claim to have some explanation for why Leliana is alive if you killed her in Origins but they don't bother telling the player in DA2. That disconnect in PC knowledge and player knowledge and expectations is problematic, especially as the series goes forward.


Thats to say nothing of the possible disconnect in how the lore is filled out via ancillary stuff like the books/comics/anime and how they'll tie that back to the games. Cause honestly, the plot and events of Asunder seem way more important than anything that happened in DA2. Are they just going to regurgitate all that info in DA3? And then you run into issues like Wynne and Evangeline- does canon Wynne's death and involvement in saving Evangeline essentially sideline Evangeline in any future appearance in the games? Or will they just have her show up and never explain her background since she'd likely be interacting with a PC who doesn't know her story from Asunder (but the player does leading to more disconnect between player and PC)?

The Grey Nayr wrote...
My theory, is that Maric still had the stuff in  his system during the times when he boinked Fiona. And that he
transmitted it into her and it was what cured her corruption. Normally  female Grey Wardens aren't able to conceive at all, or so I've heard  from D-Gai. But the only anomaly we know of that could alter that is  Remille's anti-taint potions.

Ah yes, so Maric cured the Taint in Fiona by the power of his magical ****.

Its been a while since I read The Calling but didn't Fiona mention the brooch artificially accelerating the Taint having something to do with her being cured?


Anyway, I wonder if the Wardens don't have some further role to play in any Mage war too. Considering how the Architect drew power for his magic from the Taint plus how in DA2 you can get the letter from Avernus hinting at further discoveries regarding the Taint based on the Architect's research.

And another possible wrinkle in the mage/templar issue is how in DA2 you hear the rumors of more mages being born and how Sandal has his little freakout claiming the "magic is coming back" or whatever. The whole mage/Templar thing already reminds me of X-Men, but what if some group of mages or some event happens which turns more people into mages/magic users?

Modifié par Brockololly, 01 janvier 2012 - 05:42 .

[Maria13]

twincast wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I have a theory as to how she was cured of her taint.

You see, while in the deep roads, Maric was drinking potions that First Enchanter Remille gave him on a daily basis. These potions -- as Remille claimed -- would make him resistent to the Taint(something he likely learned from the Architect). The potion was proved to work when Maric got bit by a Genlock and could feel the corruption in him, but he didn't become tainted.

My theory, is that Maric still had the stuff in his system during the times when he boinked Fiona. And that he transmitted it into her and it was what cured her corruption...

Please no. That would just be tacky.

I guess that's a way of putting it...

[Silfren]

I seriously doubt there's an easy and obvious solution to Fiona's being free of the Calling. Certainly if it was the potions, it stands to reason that at least some Grey Wardens--those who'd been unwilling to join, especially-- would be after that stuff, and others when their Calling approached.

That the change is permanent and ultimately a death sentence is an essential part of being a Grey Warden and also partly the basis for the emphasis on tragedy and sacrifice. If Fiona weren't a unique and unforeseen anomaly, it would, well, ruin part of what makes the Grey Warden concept so compelling.

[WhiteKnyght]

Silfren wrote...

I seriously doubt there's an easy and obvious solution to Fiona's being free of the Calling. Certainly if it was the potions, it stands to reason that at least some Grey Wardens--those who'd been unwilling to join, especially-- would be after that stuff, and others when their Calling approached.

That the change is permanent and ultimately a death sentence is an essential part of being a Grey Warden and also partly the basis for the emphasis on tragedy and sacrifice. If Fiona weren't a unique and unforeseen anomaly, it would, well, ruin part of what makes the Grey Warden concept so compelling.

Well it's not like they could get any more anyway.

Arguably with the Architect disappeared the secret for brewing it died with Remille.

Plus the brooch theory was just Fiona's speculation, and the Grey Wardens were able to keep those for study and nothing is said about them 20 years later when the Blight happens. If they were a cure for the taint, they probably would have ultilized it to spare their seniors the Calling.

[megski]

I always assumed Fiona having a baby had something to do with her non-taint. There are so many secrets within the wardens, it wouldn't be too far fetched for the majority not to know that having a baby as a warden cures you. Maybe your kidneys working extra hard goes ahead and filters that crap out too.

[twincast]

Obsidian Gryphon wrote...

No wait. I don't think it's the potions. Before they got out of the Deep Roads, Maric, Fiona and Duncan stopped by the dwarven statue (where the LotD had brought them) to look for supplies. It was at one of the side caves where Fiona found a basin with magical dweomer and they cleaned themselves with water from it. Maric cleaned himself, the water became dirty but it cleared by itself before he helped to clean Fiona.

The reversal of the taint  had to come from that basin. Not the potions although they probably did prevent his getting poisoned during the battles with the darkspawn.

P.S. Both Maric and Fiona slept in the water from the overturned basin. They probably cleansed themselves of the taint without realising it. Fiona may not have added 1 + 1 and the GWs probably never figured it out.

Forgot about that. Might be true.

Modifié par twincast, 02 janvier 2012 - 11:44 .

[PantheraOnca]

megski wrote...
Maybe your kidneys working extra hard goes ahead and filters that crap out too.

Best theory so far.

Kidney: "Playing around with this Taint has been fun and all, but we got a kid on the way. We should really just get serious for once."

Other kidney: "Good idea." ::cures Taint::

[Silfren]

megski wrote...

I always assumed Fiona having a baby had something to do with her non-taint. There are so many secrets within the wardens, it wouldn't be too far fetched for the majority not to know that having a baby as a warden cures you. Maybe your kidneys working extra hard goes ahead and filters that crap out too.

I don't know THAT much about reproductive biology, but this idea just doesn't make that
much sense to me.  =P  It seems like a rather random, and cheap, deux ex machina
method for de-tainting someone. 

[RazorrX]

Asunder was a great read. I enjoyed it from start to finish (and have read it 2 times so far each in one sitting). Wynne was excellent in the book, it was nice to see that She and Shale were together. I loved the way the Divine was portrayed. It allowed me to transfer my hate of the Chantry to the Templars where it belongs. Even Fiona says that The Divine tried to help them.

An interesting thing that I got from the book though was how The Templars gained strength and became more and more harsh due to a lack of controlling force within the office of the Divine. This is the same thing that happened in Kirkwall. The grand cleric in Kirkwall was past the point she should have been removed/retired. Yet because she was so loved she stayed on and became less of a leader and more of a token figurehead while Merideth took more and more power. The same thing happened to poor Justina as the previous divine was senile before her replacement. This allowed the Seekers and Templars to usurp power that should never have been theirs. Power that was abused and has now lead to the war.

My take anyway.

Two of my favorite quotes:

'Wynne looked over at Shale. "Tear it down," she said. "Tear it all down."

And of course:

"What do you want from me?"
The young man smiled coldly.
"I want you to look into my eyes."

[randomcheeses]

Okay, Just finished, so:THOUGHTS!

-Definitely better than the previous two books, but not what I would define as a 'good' book.

-I was surprised that there was no reference whatsoever to Hawke him/herself in the book. Not even an offhand mention of 'the Champion'. Oh, 'the Kirkwall Rebellion' is mentioned, as is Anders' game of Chantry Jenga, but about Hawke, there is nothing. Which, given the way Cassandra thinks Hawke is oh so important in DA2. . . is just a little jarring. In Asunder, Hawke might as well have not existed. (I know this may mimic real life, but I was expecting something, you know?)

-WTF is up with the Warden giving Wynne some sort of evil staff which is used for all of five minutes before being got rid of and never being mentioned again. Pointless padding subplot anyone?

-Rhys . . . was bland. Evangeline was okayish. I wanted to reach through the pages and slap Adrian every time she spoke.

-Hah! The Divine is not anti-mage! I knew it! (Of course she's not exactly a pro-mage revolutionary either, but I didn't think she'd be.)

-Cole baffled me, and it irritates me that we didn't get a good explanation of exactly what he was. A mage? A spirit? A mage/spirit? It seemed to be sort of implied that he made Rhys unconsciously murder people, but then he shows up in front of other people when Rhys is very definitely not around and offs a couple of templars. I just . . . WHICH IS IT? Gah.

-Fiona felt very . . . thrown in at the end as a pointless cameo. Though I did like the fact that someone finally called Elthina out on her 'it's not my place to get involved' crap. Even if it was posthumously.

-Is it bad that I'm happy Shale is still a golem?

-The tranquility thing . . . yeah. I felt a bit cheated actually, since 'tranquility can be reversed' was apparently the big revelation of the book and I kinda already suspected that after playing DA2 and doing the whole Anders/Karl mission. Although it's nice to get an idea why Anders was able to reverse Karl's tranquility, even if only briefly.

-So as far as I could tell, the Black Divine is indeed a Magister. Interesting. It does make the Lord Seeker's fanaticism more understandable, but he's still a callous jerk.

-Obligatory Fangirl Theory: Knight Commander Greagoir is Rhys' father.

-Also, what the heck was up with the 'look into my eyes' bit at the end? Is Cole freezing the lord seeker so that he can kill him, or possessing him, or is it in reference to something earlier in the book, cause if so, I totally missed it.

[Urzon]

The "I want you to look into my eyes" part reminds me of Cory at the end of Legacy. It would be very funny if Cole turned out to be Cory somehow, or maybe some other Magister of Old. I can see them plotting a strike against the Chantry, them being bitter against the whole Andraste (almost) conquering Tevinter-thing when they woke up.

Dragon Age III: Invasion of the Body Snatchers?

[Gervaise]

"Look at me" or "Look into my eyes" is what he said to his previous victims before he killed them. In some way when they stared into his eyes it made him feel more real. Although staring into the templars eyes had enable him to stop them seeing or sensing him. I assume with Lambert he was just exercising some sort of mind control so he would not be able to act against him and also so, like his earlier victims, Lambert would understand exactly what he was before he killed him. It is why I assume that it was a prelude to Lambert's murder since no one who looks into Cole's eyes lives to tell the tale.

[slyborg]

Possessed Lambert as the villan for DA3? Though if he was possessed, I'd guess the demon would prefer the mages to split from the Chantry and do their own thing with more chance for other mages to be possessed??

[NedPepper]

Gaider's best book. Wynne was much more complex. A Wynne character was NEEDED to be part of the the whole extremist mage/templar issue. Wynne might have actually helped Dragon Age 2. Also you had Evangeline, who is the only non-sadist templar we've met. Shale is just generally great wherever she appears and destroying the phylacteries was a great scene.

Interesting questions going forward:
-Orlais is in the middle of a Civil War, Ferelden is still Blight suffered, the mages and Templars have broken from the Chantry...so who is going to conquer to the South in Dragon Age 3? My guess? The Tevinters.
-What WAS Cole, exactly? What kind of spirit was in him? This opens up a whole new way of looking at spirits and demons.
-A game wonder of mine...could we actually have Rhys or Evangeline or Fiona as part of the game series now? Kind of feels like one of them should show up. This wasn't just coloring in the world like The Calling and the Stolen Throne. This felt like...well, a sequel to the game.
-Fiona is still alive and kicking....interesting. I'm still waiting for the return of Maric. : )
-Leliana and the Divine are pro-mage. Pretty definitively.

For those who are wavering....I'd read it. Gaider is a compentent writer and his prose just keeps getting better, book to book. Yes, it at times reads like a video game quest. The Lord Seeker went from being a reasonable antagonist to all out super villian. And I'm not sure I completely bought into the Rhys/Evangeline love story, but these are little quabbles. I would almost call it REQUIRED READING for anyone who loves this franchise. It's a hell of a lot of fun to read. I hope Gaider's got another one in him soon.

[stobie]

I just finished it & I really liked it. Seeing Shale again is almost enough for me, but the whole story is good, and it was surprisingly satisfying to have Wynne around again, too. I'd wanted to know about her son since she first mentions him in companion chatter, so that was also great. I was happily surprised by the attitude toward magic (though I'm still not feeling any reason to go pro-Templar in replays of DA2)

I'm still pondering Cole - nice to find myself thinking about a story after the book is closed.  New breed of demon?  I guessed he had been just what it seemed, a young mage who died in the presense of a somewhat sympathetic demon - which made me wonder if it wasn't a demon, but a Wynne's guardian like creature, possibly even a bit like Justice, who started out good, then turned... well....  nuts.    I also assumed Cole's Fade memory was real, which made me think Cole & this demon/whatever were the same idea as Anders/Justice and Wynne & her golden nice healing spirit - in that you don't know where one begins & the other ends. 

It did make me, once again, think Anders was a bit quick to off Karl, & that my Hawke *might* have pointed out that Tranquility can't be like a beheading, as Anders claims, in that Karl did come back, which you don't see often after a head-severing. 

Modifié par stobie, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:31 .