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[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Yeah...considering Anders had seen firsthand the RoT temporarily reversed thanks to Justice, you'd think he wouldn't be so quick to kill Karl like that. We either have to chalk it up to Anders being overly emotional (Karl is begging to die as the Tranquility returns, and they are friends/lovers), or Bioware not wanting to explore the possibility of a cure in the game. Probably the latter, considering you can never bring up the subject ever again, even where other Tranquil mages are concerned, which makes Anders the mage-crusader look like he gives up really easily...

[Morroian]

I've just finished it and loved it, definitely the best of the 3 books.

I like Rhys, he's the kind of character I like to role play. Evangeline was well portrayed. Wynne was the patronising Wynne from DAO but she more well rounded here. Loved Shale of course. Like someone else said upthread why no mention of Hawke? S/he was supposedly the most important person in the world at the point.

Another question, why did the Knight-Vigilant not take over the White Spire? And obviously things change before the framing story of DA2 with Leliana working with the Seekers.

I'd surmise that Cole was a spirit like Justice, one that was changed by his contact with a human ie. the real Cole as he died in his cell.

[PantheraOnca]

nedpepper wrote...
The Lord Seeker went from being a reasonable antagonist to all out super villian.

I had the opposite reaction. I thought he started out mustache-twirly and then because a reasonable (but still extreme) antagonist as the story moved forward.

[Dave of Canada]

Cole was an amalgamation of Rhys, bad cheese, poor vision (on the part of everybody else), schizophrenia and murder knife. Nothing more.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:55 .

[Auroras]

Question-- are there many Warden/Hawke mentions?

[Dave of Canada]

Minor Warden.
No Hawke.

[Morroian]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cole was an amalgamation of Rhys, bad cheese, poor vision (on the part of everybody else), schizophrenia and murder knife. Nothing more.

So is it certain that Rhys was actually the murderer under Cole's influence?

[Auroras]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Minor Warden.
No Hawke.

Yay! Now I won't have to worry that the book will destroy my canon.

[Dave of Canada]

Morroian wrote...

So is it certain that Rhys was actually the murderer under Cole's influence?

Not certain, no. Though my post was mostly to be taken in jest.

[NedPepper]

Morroian wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cole was an amalgamation of Rhys, bad cheese, poor vision (on the part of everybody else), schizophrenia and murder knife. Nothing more.

So is it certain that Rhys was actually the murderer under Cole's influence?

I'd say the epilogue disproved that.  I'm not even sold that Cole was ever a demon.  A spirit...yes.  But much more complex than the Sloth, Desire, and Rage demons we've seen.  Feels more like Justice but twisted because he was drawn into a dying, suffering mage.  A twisted Compassion spirit.

[Selej]

I'm rather surprised that so many people are mage sympathizers. Especially Adrian (spoiler) blasted Evangeline with a fireball. She should have been run through as she's a perfect example of why spoiled mages should not be granted autonomy.

[Heimdall]

Did anyone else feel a strong desire to wring the neck of the damned Adrian by the time you were 3/4 through the book.

[Jarlof Seoul]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Did anyone else feel a strong desire to wring the neck of the damned Adrian by the time you were 3/4 through the book.

Yes she became a pain. Happy the protagonist at least had the opportunity to dispense justice to her.

[IainCD]

I also enjoyed the book very much and found that it slotted very nicely into the period between the end of DA2 and Cassandra seeking out Varric...at the beginning of DA2! Its true that there is no mention of Hawke as such but I can see why that might be. Any mention of Hawke in the novel is going to inevitably lead to discussion on which choice he/she made in the Templar/Mage conflict and that will upset readers/players who did not make that choice in their playthrough - so better to keep Hawke out of it! I appreciate that this lessens his/her stated impact as an important player in Thedas at the time of the events in Asunder (though personally I think that was mainly all to do with the marketing of the game anyway) but I suppose one could argue that Hawke's own role in events in Kirkwall were not entirely clear until after the end of the novel, which is why it is only then that Cassandra and Leliana go to seek him/her out. After all, as yet we still don't know what happens between the end of Asunder and Cassandra's mission to find Hawke.

I liked how Asunder addressed Varric's comment to Cassandra that they had lost the Circles and that the Templars had also rebelled (and I also seem to remember some comment about the Chantry being in trouble). Events in Kirkwall sparked the flame but I always thought there had to be more to it than that! On the whole I liked the characters although, personally, I don't want any of them as companions in DA3 - ok for cameo appearances though :-)

Personally, I would have liked Mr Gaider to clear up exactly what Cole was - I found that rather unsatisfying but perhaps it will impact further down the line. I'm also a bit confused as to where the Seekers stand now - Lambert appears to have separated them from the Chantry and washed his hands of the mages and yet Cassandra is working with Leliana and still seems to be pro-Chantry. Does this mean there is a split within the Seekers? Oh well, I daresay all will be explained as things progress.

The only thing that really bothers me is, are we now expected to be aware of everything that goes on in all the different media in order to get the full story? I love the games and I'm happy to read the books but I know nothing about Redemption and I'm not keen on the idea of comics or anime. I guess I'll just have to keep up with the forums to stay up to date :-)

[BubbleDncr]

Made a thread before I saw this one, reposting here so they can close that thread for being redundant:

I finished reading Asunder last night, and my one gripe with it is that it kind of made me feel like DA2 didn't really matter.

I mean, everyone kept mentioning "what that mage Anders did in Kirkwall," but here it was, a year later, and all the circles still hadn't rebelled. Things were just "more tense" than they otherwise would have been, though that could be argueable in itself, since everything in Kirkwall still probably would have eventually gotten out of control without Anders. Afterall, their Knight Commander was going insane and their First Enchanter was helping research blood magic.

I guess after DA2 ended, I felt like all the circle towers would revolt when they heard the news, the mage templar war would begin, and Cassandra was looking for Hawke because she was there at the event that started it all - the annulment of the Kirkwall Circle.

But instead, it seems like the Conclave in Asunder is what caused the mages to revolt and start the mage/templar war. So it seems more logical, to me, that if Cassandra were looking for someone who was there at a piviotal moment, she would look for Rhys. He clearly played a much larger role in the beginnings of the war than Hawke, who frankly, just had to stand by and react to everything going on around her.

Anyone else get similar feelings, or am I misinterpretting things?

[NedPepper]

BubbleDncr wrote...

Made a thread before I saw this one, reposting here so they can close that thread for being redundant:

I finished reading Asunder last night, and my one gripe with it is that it kind of made me feel like DA2 didn't really matter.

I mean, everyone kept mentioning "what that mage Anders did in Kirkwall," but here it was, a year later, and all the circles still hadn't rebelled. Things were just "more tense" than they otherwise would have been, though that could be argueable in itself, since everything in Kirkwall still probably would have eventually gotten out of control without Anders. Afterall, their Knight Commander was going insane and their First Enchanter was helping research blood magic.

I guess after DA2 ended, I felt like all the circle towers would revolt when they heard the news, the mage templar war would begin, and Cassandra was looking for Hawke because she was there at the event that started it all - the annulment of the Kirkwall Circle.

But instead, it seems like the Conclave in Asunder is what caused the mages to revolt and start the mage/templar war. So it seems more logical, to me, that if Cassandra were looking for someone who was there at a piviotal moment, she would look for Rhys. He clearly played a much larger role in the beginnings of the war than Hawke, who frankly, just had to stand by and react to everything going on around her.

Anyone else get similar feelings, or am I misinterpretting things?

I think in the time period of Asunder, people simply blamed Anders.  Hawke was so under the radar, he/she might have been ignored.  I think it's why Cassandra was looking for info on Hawke.  It was probably hard to come by.  Hawke doesn't exactly stick around, and maybe the Seeker didn't have all the information yet.  So Leliana and Cassandra are now trying to dig back to the root and figure out the truth.  Cassandra had it all wrong about Hawke.  She believed there was some kind of Ferelden conspiracy, and that Hawke might have been to blame just as much as Anders.  A kind of man/woman behind the curtain.  It makes Hawke more interesting to me.  What seemed like someone so insignifcant turns out to be more than anyone knows. 

Before Varric, how was Cassandra to know that Hawke had met Flemeth?  How was she to know about what really made Meredith go crazy?  (The idol)?  How was she to know what made the Qunari attack Kirkwall?  One person had a huge effect on this, and nobody really understood.  Except Varric.  Thus, Dragon Age 2.  It doesn't make it insignificant.  It was more personal and isolated.  It wasn't global news like...BLIGHT ATTACKING FERELDEN...TWO WARDENS SAVE WORLD.  Hawke was more mythic and misunderstood.  Wheras Rhys' actions take place pretty much in front of the Chantry and Seekers.  There's no mystery.  To get to the root of a problem, you have to go back, and perhaps going back to Kirkwall turned out to be hugely important.  Throw in Legacy and Mark of the Assassian, and it's suddenly not just the mage/templar worries, but a lot more.  And who was there for all of it, unknown to all but a few?  Hawke.

[Gervaise]

I think it all comes back to why Cassandra needs Hawke. She claims it is because she needs them as someone to mediate between the Chantry and either the templars or mages according to who Hawke supported. Hawke didn't blow up the Chantry in Kirkwall and that was a big statement that was somewhat out of the ordinary and likely to be what people forcussed upon in the immediate aftermath.

However, it always seemed to me that Kirkwall alone could not have resulted in the breakdown of the system, because as has been pointed out both in game and out, Kirkwall was not like other Circles. What it did do was raise tensions because templars were aware of just how far mages were prepared to go to further their agenda and so started to tighten the screws on the other Circles. The first thing was to stop the regular get togethers of the First and Senior Enchanters, which made them all feel far more restricted than they had before. If the situation had been handled differently by the Lord Seeker or the mages had had a less confrontational First Enchanter at the helm, the Circles might still be intact.

Once the initial split took place, this is probably the point where what happened in Kirkwall started to take on more significance. This is where Hawke's name became a rallying cry for mages rising up against the templars, either reminding them of the extremes to which templars will go or as an encouragment to defy them. When that happened and Hawke's name was being bandied about, Cassandra started to think it might be worth looking into to see just how much of a part they played in what happened there and whether they might be useful to her cause. Neither Hawke or Anders brought about the downfall of the Circles but Hawke's experienced in living through the events of Kirkwall was in effect that of a mini mage/templar war and thus of relevance to the current situation.

Hawke is a hero because of driving out the Qunari - something on which both sides would agree.

[Jarlof Seoul]

Gervaise wrote...

I think it all comes back to why Cassandra needs Hawke. She claims it is because she needs them as someone to mediate between the Chantry and either the templars or mages according to who Hawke supported. Hawke didn't blow up the Chantry in Kirkwall and that was a big statement that was somewhat out of the ordinary and likely to be what people forcussed upon in the immediate aftermath.

However, it always seemed to me that Kirkwall alone could not have resulted in the breakdown of the system, because as has been pointed out both in game and out, Kirkwall was not like other Circles. What it did do was raise tensions because templars were aware of just how far mages were prepared to go to further their agenda and so started to tighten the screws on the other Circles. The first thing was to stop the regular get togethers of the First and Senior Enchanters, which made them all feel far more restricted than they had before. If the situation had been handled differently by the Lord Seeker or the mages had had a less confrontational First Enchanter at the helm, the Circles might still be intact.

Once the initial split took place, this is probably the point where what happened in Kirkwall started to take on more significance. This is where Hawke's name became a rallying cry for mages rising up against the templars, either reminding them of the extremes to which templars will go or as an encouragment to defy them. When that happened and Hawke's name was being bandied about, Cassandra started to think it might be worth looking into to see just how much of a part they played in what happened there and whether they might be useful to her cause. Neither Hawke or Anders brought about the downfall of the Circles but Hawke's experienced in living through the events of Kirkwall was in effect that of a mini mage/templar war and thus of relevance to the current situation.

Hawke is a hero because of driving out the Qunari - something on which both sides would agree.

Gervaise, I think you and Nedpepper both give insightful explanations that reconsile the DA2 events with those of Asunder.

[Heimdall]

Jarlof Seoul wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Did anyone else feel a strong desire to wring the neck of the damned Adrian by the time you were 3/4 through the book.

Yes she became a pain. Happy the protagonist at least had the opportunity to dispense justice to her.

Yes, I was only moderately dissapointed he didn't.  Maybe that means we'll get the chance ouselves in DA3

[bl00dsh0t]

 Finished the book yesterday and must say I enjoyed it quite a lot. Couldve been a great quest to play ingame IMO, and it sets the stage for DA3 well and ties up some loose ends from DA2 as to why the mages vs templar war starts. 

Also great to see Wynne, Shale and Leliana again, even greater that my origins epilogue slide actually fit spot on to the fate of Wynne and Shale which was a big bones in my eyes Shale being as awesomely sarcastic as usual brought back a lot of fond memories, Wynne being developed further and her story being brought to a fitting end = much win indeed!

Still annoyed as hell though that this seems to have reignited a lot of my interest in the future of Thedas that got pretty heavily dampened by DA2. Back to thinking about what will happen in the next dragon age installment while attempting to do my programming exercises...

CURSE YOUUU GAIIDDEEEEEEERRRRRR 

Modifié par bl00dsh0t, 08 janvier 2012 - 05:28 .

[nightscrawl]

I just finished it moments ago, and I loved it!

I had initially heard of Stolen Throne and The Calling, and read them, after having already played through DAO. So, I was familiar with Thedas, the darkspawn, the Deep Roads, King Maric, Loghain, and Duncan. That said, it was in a way similar to reading the Warcraft novels -- the only other game franchise novels I've read -- in that I had no involvement, no stake in the characters, even if I liked or disliked them previously as with Duncan and Loghain.

This novel was completely different. Not only was I familiar with several of the characters in it, but I had first hand experience with three of the characters through interacting with them extensively in DAO. I felt the same whenever the Hero of Ferelden was mentioned. That's me, I was there, I know exactly what Wynne is talking about! I'll add also that I greatly appreciated the vagueness with which the Hero of Ferelden was mentioned: nothing of whether it was male or female, no class or race specifics, no mention of being alive or dead, nothing about The Dark Ritual, nothing even about who the current ruler of Ferelden is. There was just enough to make a DAO player feel connected through their Warden, but not too much as to exclude any combination of character choices the player made.

The same applies to the events in Kirkwall. And again, I did appreciate that the Champion wasn't directly mentioned, neither was the important distinction of whether Anders was then living or dead. It was quite thrilling to read characters talking about events that I played through, about events that I witnessed. It was really amazing, and certainly the most unique experience that I've ever had while reading a novel.

Seeing DAO friends was wonderful. It was fantastic to see Wynne and Shale again. I smiled every time I read one of Shale's snarky comments, and the banter that she had with Wynne and others. Wynne's portrayal was quite interesting I thought: clearly an extension of her DAO self, but still subtly changed because of events witnessed, struggles gone through, and hard decisions made. Her end was beautiful. I also quite enjoyed Leliana's involvement, keeping her mysterious allure that was developed near the end of DAO if you completed her friendship quest, and even moreso in DA2 as a Seeker.

Of new characters I can't say enough. I really appreciated Rhys, especially because his views on mages fluctuated throughout. It was refreshing to see a character who was willing to let his opinion be changed by his experiences. Of Evangeline, I can't help but feel that she was the rock in the story, soldiering on with the strength of her convictions, knowing that she had to do right above all else. She was my absolute favorite, not the least of which was because she was a strong woman. I have to sigh when I think of Adrian however, to me it was Anders all over again, and the revelation at the end certainly solidifies that opinion. My feelings for Cole fluctuated throughout the story: from wanting to get through his section to a character I was more interested in, to pity, then interest in his abilities, confusion at his discovery, and then finally elation at the end.

The Lord Seeker was the perfect villain I thought. He was just resistant enough to outside views as to make him irritating, all while being cold, calculating, and self-righteous -- a dangerous combination. I did smile while he was regaling Evangeline with his apparent motives based on his experiences in Tivinter as it so reminded me of Fenris, as did his great line "give them an inch, and they'll take ten."

I really enjoyed Divine Justinia V as well. She was compassionate enough to remind me of Elthina, but (perhaps because of her youth) her personal power and confidence made her more willing to seek alternatives to the current order. I must say that I was furious when it was mentioned that she commissioned Pharamond to conduct his research five years ago, before the events at Kirkwall even happened, and perhaps before Anders even thought of taking such a drastic measure in the first place. For all we know, the absurd and horrific suggestion by Ser Alrik (just right for the time allotment) is what prompted her to it in the first place. In a way, it only made my anger at Anders even more intense, because it seemed like an unnecessary maneuver. But as they say, hindsight is 20/20, and we can't know whether the events of Kirkwall really were the impetus for the final rebellion, or whether the same would have happened 10 or 20 years hence, without Anders having interfered.

While many people complain that DA2 did not have an "epic" feel to it, I never really agreed with that sentiment. The reason was because I felt that the climax of the game was going to reshape Thedas as we knew it up until that time. I also felt that DA2 was a bridge game, setting the stage for a hugely epic battle that we as players may or may not get to take part in. However, reading this novel showed me that I was wrong. While still world changing, Kirkwall was only a small spark, and Asunder contained the true epic ending. Open war between mages and templars, the Chantry is caught in the middle, at least one nation gripped in civil war whose conflict may or may not spill over to its neighbors. Although Hawke and friends were not present, this novel partially answered the burning question I had at the end of DA2: what's going to happen?! It was extremely exciting, and there can be no doubt that whatever you all have planned for DA3 will be huge.

Dialogue - great as usual. The humor thrown into these novels is always a welcome respite from the dire events that are its main focus, similar to the games.

Mini romances - as with Stolen Throne and The Calling, the romance aspect, while even more spare than the previous two works, is a nice addition, and present just enough to add something to the relationships while not being a clear objective.

Epilogue ending - just perfect.

Two random points - 1) it seems that King Alistair doesn't have to worry about the Orlesians bothering Ferelden for some time, in fact sending troops to help the Empress with a civil war might very well solidify a relationship between the two nations; 2) what staff was Wynne using near the end?!


Man, what I wouldn't give to see Maric's face if he saw Fiona say "F the Divine." I bet he would be horrified for like five seconds, and then laugh.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 janvier 2012 - 07:29 .

[DKJaigen]

Selej wrote...

I'm rather surprised that so many people are mage sympathizers. Especially Adrian (spoiler) blasted Evangeline with a fireball. She should have been run through as she's a perfect example of why spoiled mages should not be granted autonomy.

Mage sympathisers dont deal with individual cases, Which you seem to be doing btw. They look upon the system and see it is ****. No one benefits from the current system especially not the common people. Who are opposed to the change to make the current system better? the templars. So do not be suprised that most people are mage sympathisers

[Gyrefalcon]

DKJaigen wrote...

Selej wrote...

I'm rather surprised that so many people are mage sympathizers. Especially Adrian (spoiler) blasted Evangeline with a fireball. She should have been run through as she's a perfect example of why spoiled mages should not be granted autonomy.

Mage sympathisers dont deal with individual cases, Which you seem to be doing btw. They look upon the system and see it is ****. No one benefits from the current system especially not the common people. Who are opposed to the change to make the current system better? the templars. So do not be suprised that most people are mage sympathisers

I have to agree with Selej.  Otherwise, the templar who ran a mage through who was in the process of surrendering would have shown that all templars are unworthy of sympathy, or the whole act of forgetting they even brought IN a mage and leaving them in "The Pits" to die of starvation and thirst would condemn the whole order for the acts of a few.  A mage pulling out a fireball is rather like a templar drawing steel.  It doesn't mean those around the person condone it.

[Morroian]

DKJaigen wrote...

Selej wrote...

I'm rather surprised that so many people are mage sympathizers. Especially Adrian (spoiler) blasted Evangeline with a fireball. She should have been run through as she's a perfect example of why spoiled mages should not be granted autonomy.

Mage sympathisers dont deal with individual cases, Which you seem to be doing btw. 

I think Adrian should have been punished for what she did. She got off easy. 

Modifié par Morroian, 08 janvier 2012 - 10:34 .

[Morroian]

nedpepper wrote...

Morroian wrote...

So is it certain that Rhys was actually the murderer under Cole's influence?

I'd say the epilogue disproved that.  I'm not even sold that Cole was ever a demon.  A spirit...yes.  But much more complex than the Sloth, Desire, and Rage demons we've seen.  Feels more like Justice but twisted because he was drawn into a dying, suffering mage.  A twisted Compassion spirit.

I agree, that was my interpretation as well.

IainCD wrote...

Personally, I would have liked Mr Gaider to clear up exactly what Cole was - I found that rather unsatisfying but perhaps it will impact further down the line. I'm also a bit confused as to where the Seekers stand now - Lambert appears to have separated them from the Chantry and washed his hands of the mages and yet Cassandra is working with Leliana and still seems to be pro-Chantry. Does this mean there is a split within the Seekers? Oh well, I daresay all will be explained as things progress.

Well judging from the end either Cole kills Lambert or takes possession of him, maybe the templars rebel but the Seekers don't. 

Modifié par Morroian, 08 janvier 2012 - 10:38 .