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[Momiji.mii]

I enjoyed Asunder a lot and thought it was David Gaider's best DA novel yet. I liked how the old characters were used and depicted, and the new faces felt like an organic addition to the already great cast of DA characters. Here's hoping that we'll see some of them return in future books/games! Especially Cole, he really was the beating heart of the book. Didn't enjoy the Rhys/Evangeline romance much, not because of the characters or anything, but because I thought that Rhys's other relationships (with Wynne, Adrian and Cole) was more than enough for one protagonist to deal with during the course of a novel as short as this one.

I enjoyed reading the discussion about Cole in this thread and my vote is currently on Cole being a spirit of compassion or something similar, that somehow got corrupted from witnessing the real Cole die. I don't think Rhys committed the murders, or that Cole tricked or used him for anything else than to ease his need for companionship. But I feel like there's still a lot of variables to the possibilities of Cole's origin brought up in the story and I'm really looking forward to finding out more about all the different fade spirits and the possibility of magic different from what the Circles teach.

Asunder made me look forward to post-act 3 DLC and/or expansions, especially since I suspect that the lack of tangible references to the Champion might be because Gaider wanted to avoid messing up possible plotlines for future Hawke-centric stories. Also, the possibilities for future story to be told in DA3 is looking more and more intriguing!

Modifié par Momiji.mii, 08 janvier 2012 - 11:44 .

[Selej]

DKJaigen wrote...

Selej wrote...

I'm rather surprised that so many people are mage sympathizers. Especially Adrian (spoiler) blasted Evangeline with a fireball. She should have been run through as she's a perfect example of why spoiled mages should not be granted autonomy.

Mage sympathisers dont deal with individual cases, Which you seem to be doing btw. They look upon the system and see it is ****. No one benefits from the current system especially not the common people. Who are opposed to the change to make the current system better? the templars. So do not be suprised that most people are mage sympathisers

The system has its flaws, yes, but its something that is needed. The last thing Thedas needs is another Imperium starting. Evangeline said it best when they first started travelling, the mages are spoiled and think they deserve more while forgetting a good portion of the outside world are illiterate and poor. They live in an ivory tower and complain woe is me. Lambert also was dead on when he said you give them an inch, and they'll take ten. Adrian and Anders are the two perfect examples of why mages running/governing themselves is disaster waiting to happen. Wynne, before being manipulated by Addrian, had the best idea. Reform, not revolt.

[jmk1999]

just finished it myself! can't wait to see how this leads into DA3. i'd love to see fiona make an appearance! would also like to see evangeline as a companion in the next game. i can just imagine what a templar would be like when combined with the spirit healer (or whatever) specialization! anyway, i'm kinda curious as to how fiona has managed to fight off the taint for so long, considering she's in her early to mid 50s. i think that would be an interesting background story to look into. i doubt it would be novel-worthy, but perhaps we might be enlightened by it soon in some form.

also, the outcome of this makes me curious just how big a part cassandra will play and, given her (somewhat) sympathetic and reasonable nature, whether or not she will defect from the seekers... or will her pride blind her?

Modifié par jmk1999, 09 janvier 2012 - 07:29 .

[Gervaise]

The explanation for Fiona is in the novel, The Calling, I believe. Haven't read it myself but something happens that either cures or stops her further deterioration, so allows her to live beyond the normal Grey Warden time limit.

I'm not clear why this means she leaves the Grey Wardens though. Back in DAO poor old Jordy gets the chop for refusing to do the ritual because once you're recruited you can't leave, yet Alistair, Anders and Fiona all apparently can effectively leave the order to pursue a different agenda and the wardens do nothing about it, even when they know where they are (I am particularly thinking of Anders). Alistair might have been understandable if he was elected king and the wardens thought it better to have a pro-warden monarch than insist on him staying in their ranks but why he ends up a drunk in Kirkwall instead of being hauled back into line is odd and why Anders and Fiona get away with it seems rather strange, particularly as you would imagine that the only reason the chantry/templars allow them to recruit mages is because they know they will keep them under control.

I also can't fathom how Fiona gets to be Grand Enchanter which I would assume would be a position filled by the election of one of the various First Enchanters of the Circles around Thedas, not a Grey Warden outsider, particularly one who is so clearly following her own agenda.

However, as I say, not having read the earlier novels, I approached Asunder from the viewpoint of knowing nothing about Fiona before, so the above oddities didn't bother me.

[Gervaise]

Correction, have just re-read that bit in Asunder about Fiona when Wynne talks about the fact that she is a ex-Grey Warden and that it was her election to Grand Enchanter that caused the conclave to be disbanded in the first place, and it does bother me. How in the hell did Fiona get into a position where she could be voted Grand Enchanter? Instead of stopping the conclave, why didn't the templars simply veto the election of Fiona? As someone who had spent a good deal of time in the Grey Wardens, even if she'd left, she would still have been out of the Circle system for some time and therefore not properly representing the views of the people from within the Circles.

It's strange but people say they find Adrian annoying. I was just as infuriated with Fiona for deliberately fanning the flames of an already tense situation. She is not a diplomat and it wouldn't matter if Cassandra had been able to find a pro-mage Hawke, I can't see her paying any attention whatsoever.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I kind of hope Fiona became Grand Enchanter by bribing and blackmailing her way to the top. Goddamn Grey Wardens....

[Morroian]

Gervaise wrote...

Correction, have just re-read that bit in Asunder about Fiona when Wynne talks about the fact that she is a ex-Grey Warden and that it was her election to Grand Enchanter that caused the conclave to be disbanded in the first place, and it does bother me. How in the hell did Fiona get into a position where she could be voted Grand Enchanter? Instead of stopping the conclave, why didn't the templars simply veto the election of Fiona? As someone who had spent a good deal of time in the Grey Wardens, even if she'd left, she would still have been out of the Circle system for some time and therefore not properly representing the views of the people from within the Circles.

I didn't get the feeling that only a First Enchanter could become Grand Enchanter. Its a political vote, rise far enough in a fraternity and you can get the votes needed to become Grand Enchanter. As for the templars vetoing it they don't have the benefit of foresight.

[jmk1999]

i read both of the earlier books and i don't remember the calling mentioning fiona's immunity to the taint. it might have... my memory on that detail is obviously a bit hazy so maybe i'll have to go back and check. i remember she was falling victim to the accelerated taint that the other wardens were (with the exception of duncan), but i don't remember what made her immune afterward. i remember he expressing a great fear of falling victim to it and going on her calling too. anyway, in regards to her leaving the wardens, there might have been an exception made so as to keep the knowledge of the wardens within the circle, as well as keep her safe due to her knowledge of the architect... and her election to the seat of grand enchanter was most likely in the spirit of heroic achievements with the wardens. although, oddly enough, she hated the circle and begged the wardens to take her. she may have wished to return in order to fight for change, thus her obvious libertarian point of view. she got a taste of the outside world and wished other mages to feel the same.

anyway, yeah, i'm not all that keen on adrian myself either, but i can definitely understand fiona's character since i read the calling. she's always had a thick headed and moody personality, as evident by her distaste of maric throughout most of the calling. she's a smart person, but she has to be convinced to trust and understand others. she doesn't take that kinda stuff lightly. that's why adrian feared that wynne was the only one who had any real say in the conclave since most of the other enchanters respected wynne for her knowledge and wisdom. after all, wynne managed to bend them all to her will in the previous conclave. it wasn't hard to see her being able to again. adrian became desperate to do something about it since rhys had no intention of helping her.

[Kulyok]

I was a bit confused by the main characters. See, the games do not allow us to feel the lure of demons, so I kind of thought that being a strong-willed mage(not a crazy abomination freak) is norm. Hawke is not tempted, Warden is not swayed, despite meeting a demon of Pride in his/her Harrowing. The book is about the Circle, so I expected at least some normal mages.

Yet in Asunder, who do we see representing the mages? Rhys, who's under the blood magic influence most of the time(see the Litany scene). Wynne, who practically is a "benevolent" abomination. Fiona, who is a deserter from the Wardens. Finally, Irving(and you remember, if you leave him to Uldred's devices for two minutes, he "accepts the gifts that I offer" and becomes an abomination). Cole is a murderer and likely a demon/demonized spirit. There's Adrian, but the writer keeps shoving "she's a fanatic, she's a fanatic!" down our throats, which I totally don't get.

Also, Rhys. He's the main character, the cornerstone of the story. But he has no character! The only emotional response I got was that I didn't like Rhys flirting with Evangeline while Adrian watched and suffered - I mean, what kind of jerk would start flaunting his new relationship before his ex who's not quite over him? But that's all the reaction I got - to me, Rhys bland as a cheap doorknob.

And I felt disappointed by the Hawke's insignficance. I thought that Kirkwall started the great war. Now it's the White Spire? So the Hawke means nothing now, and DA2 is just a small episode in DA universe, unlike DA:O? This sucks.

[Morroian]

Kulyok wrote...

And I felt disappointed by the Hawke's insignficance. I thought that Kirkwall started the great war. Now it's the White Spire? So the Hawke means nothing now, and DA2 is just a small episode in DA universe, unlike DA:O? This sucks.

Kirkwall was the trigger it just took a while for the gun to fire, it never made sense that Kirkwall was the sole reason for the war.

[Augustei]

My copy just arrived in the mail today, up to chapter 6 where Rhys has just agreed to accompany Wynne.. Think the Lord Seeker is awesome so far, favourite part was the Orlesian ball (Leliana =D) Feel kinda sorry for the first enchanter especially Adrian complaining about him, dont like her.. Evangeline is pretty awesome =D.

I want to stay up all night reading this book lol

[Gervaise]

The templars didn't need foresight to veto her election since it seems the moment she did get elected she used the conclave to call for a break with the Chantry, so the logical thing to do instead of stopping all future conclaves, since Wynne succeeded in getting the motion defeated, was to remove Fiona from office. Clearly the other First and Senior Enchanters didn't support her ideas, so one wonders why she got elected. Who did she need to bribe? The Aequitarians had always held the balance of power in the fraternities but why would they vote for her and then oppose her motion? Who outside of the Divine/Chantry, Templars and Circles would have any say in the appointment of the Grand Enchanter? Since Fiona is an elf there is no powerful noble family with an interest in pulling strings.

As for Fiona's service with the Grey Wardens, she was operational between Blights when people had all but forgotten their importance. All her activities were conducted in the utmost secrecy. She had nothing to do with the defeat of the archdemon. Now if a Hero of Ferelden mage Warden had been put forward for the position, that I can understand.

So the more I think about it, the more I find it inexplicable that she obtained the position. She actually says "I came to the Circle from the Grey Wardens because I saw that something had to be done." So this was all done with deliberate intent. Did the Grey Warden leadership know? Did they approve because they disliked the limits put on the number of mages they were allowed at any one time?

Given what the Lord Seeker claims blood mages can do, I almost wonder if some sort of mind maniuplation wasn't at work to get her into the position where she could do what she did and then memories altered so no one could remember they had really objected. I seem to recall that a really powerful ancient Tevinter Magister walked out of his prison in the body of a Warden. Is that too big a stretch of the imagination? Or was everyone really that stupid as to allow Fiona's appointment of their own free will?

[DKJaigen]

Gervaise wrote...

The templars didn't need foresight to veto her election since it seems the moment she did get elected she used the conclave to call for a break with the Chantry, so the logical thing to do instead of stopping all future conclaves, since Wynne succeeded in getting the motion defeated, was to remove Fiona from office. Clearly the other First and Senior Enchanters didn't support her ideas, so one wonders why she got elected. Who did she need to bribe? The Aequitarians had always held the balance of power in the fraternities but why would they vote for her and then oppose her motion? Who outside of the Divine/Chantry, Templars and Circles would have any say in the appointment of the Grand Enchanter? Since Fiona is an elf there is no powerful noble family with an interest in pulling strings.

As for Fiona's service with the Grey Wardens, she was operational between Blights when people had all but forgotten their importance. All her activities were conducted in the utmost secrecy. She had nothing to do with the defeat of the archdemon. Now if a Hero of Ferelden mage Warden had been put forward for the position, that I can understand.

So the more I think about it, the more I find it inexplicable that she obtained the position. She actually says "I came to the Circle from the Grey Wardens because I saw that something had to be done." So this was all done with deliberate intent. Did the Grey Warden leadership know? Did they approve because they disliked the limits put on the number of mages they were allowed at any one time?

Given what the Lord Seeker claims blood mages can do, I almost wonder if some sort of mind maniuplation wasn't at work to get her into the position where she could do what she did and then memories altered so no one could remember they had really objected. I seem to recall that a really powerful ancient Tevinter Magister walked out of his prison in the body of a Warden. Is that too big a stretch of the imagination? Or was everyone really that stupid as to allow Fiona's appointment of their own free will?

You think way to much on this. If you havent noticed the grey wardens are currently actively persuing political power. that means that members of the grey wardens are joining the nobles and even the royalty. if they wish to influence the circles they need their mages to become first enchanters. its that simple.

[Gervaise]

The Grey Wardens would appear to be making a concerted bid for political power but does that mean everyone else has to go along with it? And Fiona wasn't just a First Enchanter, she was the foremost First Enchanter: The Grand Enchanter. Probably one of the most politically sensitive positions outside that of the Divine and the Emperor/Empress of Orlais. Just walked in and got the post ahead of everyone else and then followed one agenda and one agenda only and nobody thought to question what was going on. The Black Divine and Magisters must be laughing their heads off. After all, it took them several hundred years and the combined efforts of all the noble houses of Tevinter to achieve the same end.

[Heimdall]

Gervaise wrote...

Correction, have just re-read that bit in Asunder about Fiona when Wynne talks about the fact that she is a ex-Grey Warden and that it was her election to Grand Enchanter that caused the conclave to be disbanded in the first place, and it does bother me. How in the hell did Fiona get into a position where she could be voted Grand Enchanter? Instead of stopping the conclave, why didn't the templars simply veto the election of Fiona? As someone who had spent a good deal of time in the Grey Wardens, even if she'd left, she would still have been out of the Circle system for some time and therefore not properly representing the views of the people from within the Circles.

Not so much.  Fiona left the Wardens decades ago, that's plenty enough time for her to garner support in the Circles, she may even have been a First Enchanter prior to becoming Grand Enchanter.  I don't know about the Wardens seeking power.  Given Fiona's temperment in the Calling, she could very well have sought Grand Enchanter on a mage freedom platform on her own intiative.  The Templars obviously saw her election as a sign that the more radical freedom seeking mages were gaining influence and disbanded the conclave.

To be honest, she just wasn't half so wretched a rabble rouser as Adrian.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 11 janvier 2012 - 12:08 .

[Morroian]

Gervaise wrote...

The Grey Wardens would appear to be making a concerted bid for political power but does that mean everyone else has to go along with it? And Fiona wasn't just a First Enchanter, she was the foremost First Enchanter: The Grand Enchanter. Probably one of the most politically sensitive positions outside that of the Divine and the Emperor/Empress of Orlais. Just walked in and got the post ahead of everyone else and then followed one agenda and one agenda only and nobody thought to question what was going on. The Black Divine and Magisters must be laughing their heads off. After all, it took them several hundred years and the combined efforts of all the noble houses of Tevinter to achieve the same end.

Do we actually know what the position of Grand Enchanter entails and how much power it has? It could be largely ceremonial, relating to the conclave, and having little power outside that. Certainly it looks like the position has little power to influence individual circles and the abuses occuring within them.  And the Grand Enchanter couldn't just unilaterally split the mages from the templars and chantry, it had to be by majority vote. This would explain why the templars don't seem to care much who the Grand Enchanter is, and after all they did have the power to dissolve the conclave.

Modifié par Morroian, 11 janvier 2012 - 02:04 .

[PantheraOnca]

Gervaise wrote...

Clearly the other First and Senior Enchanters didn't support her ideas, so one wonders why she got elected.

Where are you getting that from?

[Deadmac]

After reading through the first few chapters, I threw the book into the trash. It has extensive grammar issues.

[Blacklash93]

Deadmac wrote...

After reading through the first few chapters, I threw the book into the trash. It has extensive grammar issues.

That's nice. Thank you for your invaluable contribution to this discussion.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Deadmac wrote...

After reading through the first few chapters, I threw the book into the trash. It has extensive grammar issues.

...Elaborate, please?

[Camenae]

I don't know about the print version, but the Kindle version had several instances of "he lie there", "she lie on the ground". Strange because it was just that one verb!

[SkillfullyInept]

My take on Cole is that he is/was a spirit of Mercy who was corrupted, as Justice was. I'm thinking Mercy as I don't recall him ever killing anyone who didn't want him to, so...in his eyes, it would be a mercy killing. However, I haven't decided if I believe he WAS once in the body of a mage who has died, or if he still IS in the body of a mage, and his disappearing act is just a part of the abilities he gained from the spirit, such as Wynne's apparent immortality.

And while on that subject, I noticed someone wondering if the spirit made Wynne immortal. I don't have SOLID proof, but I do believe the spirit granted her some form of immortality, as in-game, when Wynne 'dies' in battle, she is almost immediately afterward resurrected without any outside help. I first thought this was a glitch in my favor, but its happened way too many times in way too many different battles for me to believe that anymore. So, yes, I believe that, as long as the spirit inhabits it's host, it makes him or her immortal.

[Camenae]

And I also had a question that maybe you guys can help me with: Soooo, can Templars get married or not? Does it matter which branch they're in...or....??? In Asunder and I think in dragon age redemption, they both say Templars are not allowed to have families/get married/etc. Okay, so then what is up with Wesley and Aveline? Maybe it's war time and they thought it didn't matter what they told a bunch of strangers? Still...anyway I am just confused so if anyone has anything definitive...

Also, what is going to happen with Evangeline's lyrium addiction?!?! She was almost out even on the trip back, and then in the sewers she was like yeah Wynne I only got a few hours before I go nuts on ya. Then flash to the end and she's fine, when I would think she would be having the shakes and really jonesing by that point. I mean, not like she's still getting officially sanctioned lyrium supply then. Mages are just giving her lyrium potions maybe?

Thanks in advance.

[Gervaise]

I think one of the devs said that templars could marry but had to get special dispensation or something. It did seem to fly in the face of previous evidence because the desire demon got a hold on that templar in Origins because he had always wanted a wife and family and you got the impression that one of the sacrifices the templars made, in addition to the lyrium addiction, was that of a family life, which in a way put them on a par with the mages. In fact I thought that perhaps it was the sexual deprivation that made the templars so uptight and accounted for the instances of sexual abuse that occur. Then Wesley is married to Averline and Keran enters the templars in order to provide for his family, so it now just seems like a regular army set up. May be in depends on where you are based as well. Wesley was in Lothering Chantry, so part of a village where his wife could live. Keran was based in the Gallows in Kirkwall. Most Circles were deliberately placed some distance from major settlements to reduce the potential risk to the general population and since there was no evidence of married quarters or templar families there, postings there had to be single and were expected to remain that way.

As for Evangeline, she mentions that she will probably have to resort to the lyrium smugglers to keep her supplied. Initially, though, I would imagine that they might have managed to grab some supplies as they escaped, or even that Lelianna helped secure some for her. She is said to be present at Andoral's Reach. If the mages do not want to resort to blood magic they are going to have to set up some sort of supply network and Evangeline can just tap into that.

[Deadmac]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

After reading through the first few chapters, I threw the book into the trash. It has extensive grammar issues.

...Elaborate, please?

If you use the educational system in the United States as a scale, the grammar in "Dragon Age: Asunder" would fall between ninth and tenth grade. Some of the grammatical mistakes found include: reversing independent-defendant clauses, creating sentence fragments, and using commas randomly to avoid run-on sentences. Gaider does not use sophisticated sentence structure, which you would find in novels such as "Heir to the Empire", "Batman: No Man's Land", and "Bounty Hunter Wars: The Mandalorian Armor". As a result of him writing video game dialogue, Mr. Gaider's grammar has turned into quick spats. Author Dan Brown and Steve Perry also make similar mistakes. Even though they can create fantastic stories, their grammar does not have any level of sophistication. "Dragon Age: Asunder" could very well contain a great story; however, the book's grammar lacks intellectual depth and stimulation. When you read a very written story, the front of your brain starts to feel tension. "Dragon Age: Asunder" does not make you feel intellectually fulfilled.

Drew Karpyshyn is another BioWare writer who makes the same mistakes. Karpyshyn's Darth Bane series was a wonderful read; nevertheless, his writing style prevents him from creating depth.

Read the novels "Heir to the Empire" and "Batman: Knightfall", and you will see exactly what I am talking about.