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[Sylvianus]

This is just to say, that actually, I could argue your points, but I won't bother, because I am not interested.

Say what you want to tell about my post, I don't care I will be free to tell what I want to tell about you, if I am interested one day in this forum, everyone is free.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 12:00 .

[Silfren]

Sylvianus wrote...

Or maybe, she feels that they are wrong, and that it could lead to a disaster for her cause and all the mages, based on reasonable doubts, ( yes also ideologue ) and I can't blame her to think that when I am reading this book. Templar are total useless jackass. She could totally think that the conclave wouldn't change at all their situation and that after it would be too late to act and never it could happen again. I don't even imagine what they suffered during one year. I think I have a different view.

 In this book, it seems clear for me that mages from their point of view can't really hope in the divine.

If I was Adrian, i would decide to fight now, if I felt that it was our last chance.

Adrian's motivations have no bearing on whether her actions are practical or not.  Whether or not SHE feels justified in her actions is one thing.  Whether those actions are practical is another.  And practical is one thing she most assuredly is not.  People who are practical are prepared to listen to reason.  Nor are people obsessed with a cause to the exclusion of all else practical, and Adrian is nothing if not obsessed.

[Heimdall]

Sylvianus wrote...

Or maybe, she feels that they are wrong, and that it could lead to a disaster for her cause and all the mages, based on reasonable doubts, ( yes also ideologue ) and I can't blame her to think that when I am reading this book. Templar are total useless jackass. She could totally think that the conclave wouldn't change at all their situation and that after it would be too late to act and never it could happen again. I don't even imagine what they suffered during one year. I think I have a different view.

 In this book, it seems clear for me that mages from their point of view can't really hope in the divine.

If I was Adrian, i would decide to fight now, if I felt that it was our last chance.

She doesn't just disagree when her ideas are challenged, she condems those who disagree and even resorts to violence, flying into rages.  At any rate, her self righteous motivations and self importance do not make her any more practical than her actions would suggest.

[Dave of Canada]

Have to say, I'm liking Lambert, don't care much for Fiona and the Divine though. Neutral on Rhys and Evangeline. Adrian can go rot.

[Sylvianus]

Her mind seemed completely rational, what she said is completely rational and rooted in realism.

Me too I can be angry against someone, or can't stand if he is naive, if I am convinced that he is blind, he is lost in a thought that can destroy him or us, especially in a dangerous period that requires to decide and act quickly , and that's pretty much what I felt in this book. Emotion does not prevent reason.

As I said, the situation is very extreme, and it gets hot.

Her hostility against Evangeline, the Divine, templars is hard, but justified.

I will take the example of Jack Bauer. He is described in a harsh terrorist period as a maverick, fanatical in an extreme situation, where he decides to act alone, whatever the cost, to save his country, to do what he believes is right. And ultimately he is right at the end. And everybody changes their mind, because ultimately in the end he was right and he saved the country. that's interesting how the end changed minds.

He paid a cost to achieve his goal, and finally, can we really say that he is a fanatic when he just adapted his thought to an extreme situation. Yes we could, but not everyone could agree. He didn't listen to any of his friends, because he thought they'd fail orthewrise or because he felt that as their last chance. Extreme situations sometimes require a mind convinced, extreme acts.

Otherwise, yes, she killed one man, ( who wanted to die ) that would be killed or worse anyways, without her, and she used him to achieve the goal, with a cost, that was totally small compared to the cause of mages. You don't need to be a fanatic to do that in my opinion.

any man convinced in an extreme situation, or worse from one moment to another, may decide to act in an extreme way, especially in times of war  that so badly can determine life or death.

Fiona, wasn't really different from her. She seemed as ready to violence, as her, with herself self righteous motivations. Was she a fanatic ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 01:08 .

[Morroian]

Sylvianus wrote...

This is just to say, that actually, I could argue your points, but I won't bother, because I am not interested.

Say what you want to tell about my post, I don't care I will be free to tell what I want to tell about you, if I am interested one day in this forum, everyone is free.

No offence but your statements especially on Evangeline appear to bear little relation to what was in the book, so of course you are going to be challenged on them. Evangeline is a moral person and right through the book is consistent in acting on that morality. She is the one person in the whole book, who acts in a way that could be considered admirable, perhaps with the exception of Wynne although Wynne is quite insufferable in the way she conducts herself.

Your statements on the Divine are also quite wrong, she does not support the mages over the templars, she just gives the mages a chance to be heard but Lambert and Fiona and Adrian then escalated things. Its notable that she still sentences the researcher to be tranquilled again just for example.

[Sylvianus]

Also, Adrian, contrary to Anders, is not afraid to directly confront the Templars. Not afraid to attack them first, and attack them if they threaten them.

Yes, she can be aggressive towards people who are hostile towards her and mages, but it has nothing to do with the will to go after the masses murder of innocent people for political purposes.

(Yes it killed the elf, but then again, considering he was already dead, so it does not really matter)

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 01:23 .

[Morroian]

Sylvianus wrote...

(Yes it killed the elf, but then again, considering he was already dead, so it does not really matter)

It wasn't necessarily the klilling that was the problem but the framing of Rhys, and yes at that point they were still friends.

[Sylvianus]

@ Morroian No offense, if someone else want to challenge my my opinion. But when you are in a topic about thoughts, you respect their opinion, what they like or dislike, otherwise don't bother. The goal on this forum, to appear smarter than  the others is getting old. I answered to you, i don't care Silfren, because I don't care silfren, that's another story.

Now, it is clear that Evangeline was written so we thought that she was the good Templar, I have no doubt. But i am not buying it, when i think about DAO and DA2, when i read the lore.

I don't share your admiration for her. Yes, she is moral, too moral, too idealistic, for the job she is doing, this job is dirty everyday, it needs a flexible mind on the ground. I would prefer someone like Lord seeker, but with a better compassion, that would be perfect.  But the best templar remains Gregoire. 

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 01:23 .

[Morroian]

Sylvianus wrote...
I don't share your admiration for her. Yes, she is moral, too moral, too idealistic, for the job she is doing, this job is dirty everyday, it needs a flexible mind on the ground.

I disagree, if the templars in charge were like her the situaiton would never have ended up in open rebellion yet there still would have been control.

[Heimdall]

Sylvianus wrote...

Her mind seemed completely rational, what she said is completely rational and rooted in realism.

Me too I can be angry against someone, or can't stand if he is naive, if I am convinced that he is blind, he is lost in a thought that can destroy him or us, especially in a dangerous period that requires to decide and act quickly , and that's pretty much what I felt in this book. Emotion does not prevent reason.

As I said, the situation is very extreme, and it gets hot.

Her hostility against Evangeline, the Divine, templars is hard, but justified.

I will take the example of Jack Bauer. He is described in a harsh terrorist period as a maverick, fanatical in an extreme situation, where he decides to act alone, whatever the cost, to save his country, to do what he believes is right. And ultimately he is right at the end. And everybody changes their mind, because ultimately in the end he was right and he saved the country. that's interesting how the end changed minds.

He paid a cost to achieve his goal, and finally, can we really say that he is a fanatic when he just adapted his thought to an extreme situation. Yes we could, but not everyone could agree. He didn't listen to any of his friends, because he thought they'd fail orthewrise or because he felt that as their last chance. Extreme situations sometimes require a mind convinced, extreme acts.

Otherwise, yes, she killed one man, ( who wanted to die ) that would be killed or worse anyways, without her, and she used him to achieve the goal, with a cost, that was totally small compared to the cause of mages. You don't need to be a fanatic to do that in my opinion.

any man convinced in an extreme situation, or worse from one moment to another, may decide to act in an extreme way, especially in times of war  that so badly can determine life or death.

Fiona, wasn't really different from her. She seemed as ready to violence, as her, with herself self righteous motivations. Was she a fanatic ?

She killed one man and condemned many more, the fact that she was unable to realize the consequences of her actions would result in so many dead at the hands of the Templars does no credit to the notion of her rationality.

Jack Bauer makes sacrifices of himself to save lives.  Everyone has a right to do that.  Adrian sacrifices others against their will in pursuit of an ideal.  It is the peak of arrogance for her to believe she has the right to make such a decision for all mages.  That is why I find her an absolutely disgusting individual.

Fiona tried to convice the mages to act.  She did not force mages to go along with her by forcing the Templar's hand when they disagreed with her or looked as if they might vote for any other course of action.  I have no problem with Fiona's methods, they don't delibrately try to force all mages into a war that will claim many lives in the name of an ideal.  I have a problem with someone arrogant and self important enough to believe they can make that decision for them and believes any number of lives are worth it if her goals are achieved.

A fanatic like Adrian cares about an ideal more than she cares about the innocent people that suffer because of her pursuit of it.

[Sylvianus]

Morroian wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

(Yes it killed the elf, but then again, considering he was already dead, so it does not really matter)

It wasn't necessarily the klilling that was the problem but the framing of Rhys, and yes at that point they were still friends.

Friendship has few places, when hundreds of lives are at stake, again it is an extreme situation that no one here has experienced. At a moment, you could totally feel, that a friend won't be anymore your friend, anyways.

She probably knew that what she has done this would lead to the battle, she knew it was dangerous. That didn't mean she couldn't think that Rhys couldn't survive. What was important, was that what she saw as the last chance to act really, happens.

[Morroian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Fiona tried to convice the mages to act.  She did not force mages to go along with her by forcing the Templar's hand when they disagreed with her or looked as if they might vote for any other course of action.

Exactly she was going to accept the majority decision.

[Sylvianus]

Morroian wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
I don't share your admiration for her. Yes, she is moral, too moral, too idealistic, for the job she is doing, this job is dirty everyday, it needs a flexible mind on the ground.

I disagree, if the templars in charge were like her the situaiton would never have ended up in open rebellion yet there still would have been control.

compassion, rigid notions guide that person, yes. It is not suitable enough to the reality that the templar job is thankless, ruthless. Yes, more compassion, more humanity.

But her thoughts to me are those of a person who can be easily manipulated, by feelings, emotions and ect. Blood mages and demons are masters of lies and deceit. She can be easily betrayed.

Demons, abominations, evil mages who act against their will, all that could hit her hard, and show that it is more complicated than that, and sometimes very difficult decisions must be made.

  She has completely jumped on the bandwagon of " let's help mages, freedom,  you're human, I love you)

The mages, voted to fight, why is she with Rhys at the end ? She has forgotten what they could be ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:21 .

[Sylvianus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Her mind seemed completely rational, what she said is completely rational and rooted in realism.

Me too I can be angry against someone, or can't stand if he is naive, if I am convinced that he is blind, he is lost in a thought that can destroy him or us, especially in a dangerous period that requires to decide and act quickly , and that's pretty much what I felt in this book. Emotion does not prevent reason.

As I said, the situation is very extreme, and it gets hot.

Her hostility against Evangeline, the Divine, templars is hard, but justified.

I will take the example of Jack Bauer. He is described in a harsh terrorist period as a maverick, fanatical in an extreme situation, where he decides to act alone, whatever the cost, to save his country, to do what he believes is right. And ultimately he is right at the end. And everybody changes their mind, because ultimately in the end he was right and he saved the country. that's interesting how the end changed minds.

He paid a cost to achieve his goal, and finally, can we really say that he is a fanatic when he just adapted his thought to an extreme situation. Yes we could, but not everyone could agree. He didn't listen to any of his friends, because he thought they'd fail orthewrise or because he felt that as their last chance. Extreme situations sometimes require a mind convinced, extreme acts.

Otherwise, yes, she killed one man, ( who wanted to die ) that would be killed or worse anyways, without her, and she used him to achieve the goal, with a cost, that was totally small compared to the cause of mages. You don't need to be a fanatic to do that in my opinion.

any man convinced in an extreme situation, or worse from one moment to another, may decide to act in an extreme way, especially in times of war  that so badly can determine life or death.

Fiona, wasn't really different from her. She seemed as ready to violence, as her, with herself self righteous motivations. Was she a fanatic ?

She killed one man and condemned many more, the fact that she was unable to realize the consequences of her actions would result in so many dead at the hands of the Templars does no credit to the notion of her rationality.

Jack Bauer makes sacrifices of himself to save lives.  Everyone has a right to do that.  Adrian sacrifices others against their will in pursuit of an ideal.  It is the peak of arrogance for her to believe she has the right to make such a decision for all mages.  That is why I find her an absolutely disgusting individual.

Fiona tried to convice the mages to act.  She did not force mages to go along with her by forcing the Templar's hand when they disagreed with her or looked as if they might vote for any other course of action.  I have no problem with Fiona's methods, they don't delibrately try to force all mages into a war that will claim many lives in the name of an ideal.  I have a problem with someone arrogant and self important enough to believe they can make that decision for them and believes any number of lives are worth it if her goals are achieved.

A fanatic like Adrian cares about an ideal more than she cares about the innocent people that suffer because of her pursuit of it.

rationality has little to do with it. No one can ever know what the future consequences will be. anyone can reasonably think positively, lead  by strong feelings. With such power, I would think myself that many mages with the leaders present ( most powerful mages of thedas ), can do a big difference.  Disasters rarely appeared in the eyes of those who conceved  plans. the difference with those who follow or do never act is that they take responsibility to try, and could assume their errors after, whatever it is.

  She can also easily think that her opinion is the most legitimate, with her fraternity, one of the largest, anger and fear among the Mages, the support of Fiona, and the fact that all the circles in Thedas know about what is going on. She feels that that now, the chance is there to lauch a mass movement. I couldn't blame her for that.

Also drian, said it : mage are already dead, if they don't fight. that's why she doesn't care about innocent people that suffer, for her, they are already suffering and they will die if they don't act now, that's why she is so nervous. Remember the beginning, how all of that begins, accusations, rumors, how she evolved, why she became like tha tetc etc, It is easy to imagine why she feels that it is the moment or never, for their own sake. But I agree with what you said in some parts.

Also, actually, Jack bauer could totally sacrifice one life or several to save millions, against their will. He did so.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:17 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Adrian and Fiona are insufferable ****s. I spent the entire time reading the book wanting to bash their brains in. The Libertarian faction should have been purged by the other fraternities long ago. They're all asses.

[Heimdall]

Sylvianus wrote...
rationality has little to do with it. No one can ever know what the future consequences will be. anyone can reasonably think positively, lead  by strong feelings. With such power, I would think myself that many mages with the leaders present ( most powerful mages of thedas ), can do a big difference.  Disasters rarely appeared in the eyes of those who conceved  plans. the difference with those who follow or do never act is that they take responsibility to try, and could assume their errors after, whatever it is.

  She can also easily think that her opinion is the most legitimate, with her fraternity, one of the largest, anger and fear among the Mages, the support of Fiona, and the fact that all the circles in Thedas know about what is going on. She feels that that now, the chance is there to lauch a mass movement. I couldn't blame her for that.

Also drian, said it : mage are already dead, if they don't fight. that's why she doesn't care about innocent people that suffer, for her, they are already suffering and they will die if they don't act now, that's why she is so nervous. Remember the beginning, how all of that begins, accusations, rumors, how she evolved, why she became like tha tetc etc, It is easy to imagine why she feels that it is the moment or never, for their own sake. But I agree with what you said in some parts.

Also, actually, Jack bauer could totally sacrifice one life or several to save millions, against their will. He did so.

You aren't being serious if you really think an idiot couldn't percieve the loss of life close at hand given the Lord Seeker's temperment, which Adrian was more personally familiar with than most.  She doesn't take responsibility for her errors, that's part of the problem.  She outright claims that she could not have forseen it, which is bollocks.

Her fraternity is only the second largest, and the largest has very different ideas.  That she is an opportunist is not in question.

That's nothing but self righteous justification for a horrid act.  If all mages are dead, who is Adrian fighting for?  She is causing death to countless people and she does not care.  She only cares about a single minded ideal and damned be the consequences to anyone around her.

Jack kills one dangerous man to save a million lives.  He does not kill an innocent bystander and put the blame on his best friend to further his ideals.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:28 .

[Sylvianus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
rationality has little to do with it. No one can ever know what the future consequences will be. anyone can reasonably think positively, lead  by strong feelings. With such power, I would think myself that many mages with the leaders present ( most powerful mages of thedas ), can do a big difference.  Disasters rarely appeared in the eyes of those who conceved  plans. the difference with those who follow or do never act is that they take responsibility to try, and could assume their errors after, whatever it is.

  She can also easily think that her opinion is the most legitimate, with her fraternity, one of the largest, anger and fear among the Mages, the support of Fiona, and the fact that all the circles in Thedas know about what is going on. She feels that that now, the chance is there to lauch a mass movement. I couldn't blame her for that.

Also drian, said it : mage are already dead, if they don't fight. that's why she doesn't care about innocent people that suffer, for her, they are already suffering and they will die if they don't act now, that's why she is so nervous. Remember the beginning, how all of that begins, accusations, rumors, how she evolved, why she became like tha tetc etc, It is easy to imagine why she feels that it is the moment or never, for their own sake. But I agree with what you said in some parts.

Also, actually, Jack bauer could totally sacrifice one life or several to save millions, against their will. He did so.

You aren't being serious if you really think an idiot couldn't percieve the loss of life close at hand given the Lord Seeker's temperment, which Adrian was more personally familiar with than most.  She doesn't take responsibility for her errors, that's part of the problem.  She outright claims that she could not have forseen it, which is bollocks.

Her fraternity is only the second largest, and the largest has very different ideas.  That she is an opportunist is not in question.

That's nothing but self righteous justification for a horrid act.  If all mages are dead, who is Adrian fighting for?  She is causing death to countless people and she does not care.  She only cares about a single minded ideal and damned be the consequences to anyone around her.

Jack kills one dangerous man to save a million lives.  He does not kill an innocent bystander and put the blame on his best friend to further his ideals.

I am totally serious. Did she know who was Lord Seeker ? His abilities ? you aren't being serious if you think that only speculation can disturb a plan and strong feelings.

No, obviously. On the contrary, she knows what the mages are capable of. And any mage can think that grand enchanter + first enchanters + etc, could be totally a big thing.

Jack killed an innocent because a terrorist asked him to do so. He killed an allie cop  innocent to save a terrorist who knew something about the mission,  he threathened to kill the baby and a woman of a tbad man if he didn't answer his question. When the cop asked him if could do that, he didn't deny at all.

And the consequences put on someone else is irrelevant, she had her own situation, and she couldn't do otherwise, unless she gave up her plans. There wouldn't be another conclave. Extreme situation totally different.

and yes, * If * all mages were dead, obviously she thoughts more there was a chance,, she considered the risk and decided to act. Yes she was selfish, I don't deny that.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:45 .

[Camenae]

Sylvianus, I guess I'm really not understanding you. If you think Evangeline is so bad, fine, but what does she need to do for you to think she is a "good" Templar? Seems at first you're saying she's a bad Templar because she's too soft on mages like the Divine was? Ok, I can see that point of view, depending on your definition of what a Templar is supposed to do. But you agree so vehemently with Adrian that now I'm thinking you meant Evangeline was a bad Templar because she wasn't soft ENOUGH on mages?

[Heimdall]

Sylvianus wrote...

I am totally serious. Did she know who was Lord Seeker ? His abilities ? you aren't being serious if you think that only speculation can disturb a plan and strong feelings.

No, obviously. On the contrary, she knows what the mages are capable of. And any mage can think that grand enchanter + first enchanters + etc, could be totally a big thing.

Jack killed an innocent because a terrorist asked him to do so. He killed an allie cop  innocent to save a terrorist who knew something about the mission,  he threathened to kill the baby and a woman of a tbad man if he didn't answer his question. When the cop asked him if could do that, he didn't deny at all.

And the consequences put on someone else is irrelevant, she had her own situation, and she couldn't do otherwise, unless she gave up her plans. There wouldn't be another conclave. Extreme situation totally different.

and yes, * If * all mages were dead, obviously she thoughts more there was a chance,, she considered the risk and decided to act. Yes she was selfish, I don't deny that.

I'm not sure what speculation you're talking about.  I'm talking about common sense.  She lacks it.

So what are all the apprentices and lesser mages in the tower, chopped liver?  All those people are at serious risk with all the powerful mages that might protect them all gathered away from them in a single location.  Adrian is a fool for not percieving the danger.

All of this is irrelevant.  Jack is no saint, but he fights to save lives.  Adrian is no saint and she by you're own admission has no interest in saving lives.  Adrian has more in common with the terrorists Jack kills than Jack.  If you didn't think the situations wer comparable you shouldn't have brought them up.

It shows a sociopathic disregard for others when coupled with her self importance and the previously discussed lack of interest in actually saving the people that might benefit from her ideal.

She did not consider the risk, or if she did she failed utterly in her evaluation.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:15 .

[Sylvianus]

Camenae wrote...

Sylvianus, I guess I'm really not understanding you. If you think Evangeline is so bad, fine, but what does she need to do for you to think she is a "good" Templar? Seems at first you're saying she's a bad Templar because she's too soft on mages like the Divine was? Ok, I can see that point of view, depending on your definition of what a Templar is supposed to do. But you agree so vehemently with Adrian that now I'm thinking you meant Evangeline was a bad Templar because she wasn't soft ENOUGH on mages?

So ? What is really that hard to understand ?

Why I couldn't understand the point of view of Adrian as a mage, and why I couldn't find evangeline not enought in a mind that fit better her job ?

nUnlike all those on this forum, I do not categorize me in one side, i am no pro templar, i am no pro mage. I am totally neutral, I want the best for the world. And I try to figure the characters, that's it. i don't need to be pro or against.

I do not judge people only by their acts, I put myself in their place. The view of the Mages, not mine, but I put in the place of a mage in the context. And given the gravity of the situation in this book, I understand why Adrian has acted like that, and why she felt the urgency to act now.

Evangeline, I find she simply can not do a good job with this mindset, she is not prepared for the hardness of the job of a Templar to me. And that I hate, from the point of view of what I believe is good from another perspective.

In this book which depicts the Mages too positively, mages have not turned into abominations okay, but that does not mean that I forget the context, what everything happened, and everything a mage can do.

I helped the mage in DAO and DA2, but I like Gregoire, and Cullen, etc because they represent the good templars to me. They are serious.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:16 .

[Heimdall]

I think Evangeline is much more like Gregoire than you give her credit, Sylvianus. Cullen not so much, but I'm curious if you believe they are no different. Gregoire works with the mages in his tower. Cullen does not believe they are even truly people, though he is less extreme than some Templars.

I too veiw myself as neutral, but the more I put myself in Adrian's shoes the more I conclude that she simply does not care who or how many people she has to kill to get what she wants. She is so wrapped up in her own opinions that she refuses to even contemplate another course of action. She outright refuses to be reasoned with. These things are not the mark of a rational or even terribly stable individual.

[Camenae]

Sylvianus, I said your point of view was hard to understand because you hold up Greagoir as an example of "good", and I'm just not seeing the difference between the way Greagoir acts and the way Evangeline acts.

[Sylvianus]

`

I'm not sure what speculation you're talking about.  I'm talking about common sense.  She lacks it.

You implied, that only an idiot or someone irrational couldn't see the future consequences, that's incorrect. When nobody knows what are really the strengh of each side, he couldn't imagine how something could be a disaster.  She couldn't know if the templars were that powerful. especially, if mage in Kirkwall revolted and won against the templars.

So what are all the apprentices and lesser mages in the tower, chopped liver?  All those people are at serious risk with all the powerful mages that might protect them all gathered away from them in a single location.

  Adrian is a fool for not percieving the danger.

She might be a fool, I didn't try to convince you, she decided to act now, and she felt the urge to act now. This the only thing I understand. And I disagree. Again, one mage is a threat for many folks. The leaders revolted could help after the first fight, apprentices and mages. Nobody could know what happen. When I think about this mage alone, who disturbed everyone at the party in the beginning, I am saying myself that mages are very powerful. Evangeline was almost defeated.

All of this is irrelevant.  Jack is no saint, but he fights to save lives.  Adrian is no saint and she by you're own admission has no interest in saving lives.  Adrian has more in common with the terrorists Jack kills than Jack.  If you didn't think the situations wer comparable you shouldn't have brought them up.

What I said about jack, was just that to not listening, convinced to be the person who is right etc etc, isn't necessarily fanatism. If you have something else that to claim that in general, there, okay.

 she was selfish by her act, , dissmissing other's opinions, that doesn't mean she doesn't care at all about their lives. just that she doesn't see any other solutions, mage must figth or die and they are unaware. She has just a different thought and she thinks that for the good of all, she must launch the revolution.

It shows a sociopathic disregard for others when coupled with her self importance and the previously discussed lack of interest in actually saving the people that might benefit from her ideal.

She was convinced that she was right, and that if they didn't try, in long-term, it could mean the end. Only one reason couldn't explain that, to me.

She did not consider the risk, or if she did she failed utterly in her evaluation.

Yep, don't know what that changes. It happened. even if there would be no many people dead, you would have the same mind. She acted, that's it. To each to consider, if really there was something else. I wasn't convinced myself by Wynn's approach.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:41 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I think Evangeline is much more like Gregoire than you give her credit, Sylvianus. Cullen not so much, but I'm curious if you believe they are no different. Gregoire works with the mages in his tower. Cullen does not believe they are even truly people, though he is less extreme than some Templars.

This is an extreme interpretation of what Cullen says.

I don't believe he means that mages aren't people at all, merely that they are not people such as himself and the PC (ignoring the PC as a mage, of course ).

And this would be correct in Dragon Age, considering what mages can do, or have happen to them and everyone around them.