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[Sylvianus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I think Evangeline is much more like Gregoire than you give her credit, Sylvianus. Cullen not so much, but I'm curious if you believe they are no different. Gregoire works with the mages in his tower. Cullen does not believe they are even truly people, though he is less extreme than some Templars.

I too veiw myself as neutral, but the more I put myself in Adrian's shoes the more I conclude that she simply does not care who or how many people she has to kill to get what she wants. She is so wrapped up in her own opinions that she refuses to even contemplate another course of action. She outright refuses to be reasoned with. These things are not the mark of a rational or even terribly stable individual.

Well, for Cullen, he lived a traumatic experience, and I have clearly seen a shift in thinking about the mages in DA2. What he said, about the mages  is really exaggerated by folks on this board to me.

He was spirited to pose a clear idea about the dangerousness of the Mages, and how someone who had too much confidence in them, could fall into the vice. Hawk seemed too naive for him, so he tried to picture what he wanted to say.

I personally think that he may be fair with them, even if  he is a little reluctant to work with the Mages. He does not want war, if it finds that the Mages are increasingly angry, he will understand that some things must be done.

He will not stay there to wait for them to revolt, the big weakness of the Lord Seeker, that's why I didn't like him. On the other hand, cullen will be always vigilant, he is not so naive, and he knows what to expect with the Magges. It will comply with the mages, but always keep a distance so as not to fall into the trap known.

And I personally don't think that gregoire would act like Evangelne. Cole, the end where she is holding the hand of Rhys while they decided to fight against her ancien order, her ancien companions. Gregoire wouldn't accept the idea of their freedom !

Gregory was a very cautious man, who did not hesitate to take difficult decisions, he never let compassion lead him. He was ready to destroy the circle , if he had no proof that the tower was secure. He did think mages were humans, he did sympatize with them, doesn't mean he will hesitate against the odds, despite how difficult it is.

Do you really think that Evangeline is able to decide to kill hundreds of lives, aware of the danger they represent? Would she agree to kill some innocent lives too among them for the sake of the great number ? Are you sure she is ready to accept that after reading this book ?

The problem with this book, is that she is NEVER confronted to very difficult decisions, extreme situations, so it is easy to see in her, a good templar.

I apply her way of thinking to other situations, and I can totally see that she is not ready for the Templar job. She has never experimenced what a mage could really do, that's obvious.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:06 .

[Sylvianus]

Camenae wrote...

Sylvianus, I said your point of view was hard to understand because you hold up Greagoir as an example of "good", and I'm just not seeing the difference between the way Greagoir acts and the way Evangeline acts.

i answered a bit in my last post, why I feel bad about her.

[Camenae]

Okay, that's actually a pretty good point of view. I still don't think Evangeline merits a reaction quite so venomous, but I do see what you mean. And I do agree that she wasn't faced with any difficult decisions, only black-and-white situations. So there's no call to worship her as a hero. But then again you don't have to be a hero to just be simply a good person.

[DKJaigen]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

This is an extreme interpretation of what Cullen says.

I don't believe he means that mages aren't people at all, merely that they are not people such as himself and the PC (ignoring the PC as a mage, of course ).

And this would be correct in Dragon Age, considering what mages can do, or have happen to them and everyone around them.

And this kind of thinking is just as dangerous. You create uncaring monsters in the process. Even wynne had a mercenary attitude to the common people. Now that the mages are fighting for their very survival do you think they care if the common people get caught in the crossfire?

Have to say, I'm liking Lambert, don't care much for Fiona and the
Divine though. Neutral on Rhys and Evangeline. Adrian can go rot.

Strange you like Lambert so much as he is a Tevinter magister in all things except he isnt a mage.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 13 janvier 2012 - 06:58 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Ulicus wrote...

You don't witness it happening, no, but you have the process explained and meet someone who was tranquil and no longer is.

As for whether or not the process has been tinkered with for some time or not, that's just speculation on my part. As far as anyone in the story knows, this is the first time it's been looked into and undertaken. Yet, though certainly risky, it didn't strike me as being especially complex so I wouldn't be surprised if it had been discovered and covered up a bunch of times throughout history.

One'd actually need a tranquil (I'm unsure why this word is capitalized throughout the book) with motivations enough to even get the process started. In Asunder we learn that the tranquil doing the research is merely obeying orders from the Divine. And the research itself took some five years.

That said, you may be right, of course, but I'd have found the quest for cure unlikely without the right set of conditions.

I did find it hard to believe that a mage-centric society like Tevinter wouldn't have already figured out how to do it.

You're assuming Tranquility is even a problem within Tevinter. Otherwise why'd Tevinters bother to help tranquils in other lands?

Either way, the ramifications are (obviously) massive. I almost wish this plot point had come up in DA2, somewhere, rather than in the EU.

A while back I remember reading on these very forums some developer/writer (forget which) stating that the tranquil were going to play a role later on, which leads me to believe that the plot was probably already there, just not used until the time demanded it. (Of course, I'm assuming that the tranquil playing a role would be the same as the Rite being reversed, which may not be the case.)

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Excellent, thanks for the clarification. I retain my suspicions if stuff is not witnessed, as Bioware writers are not above being deliberately misleading or outright changing their minds for story purposes. In more modern terms: "Screenshots or it didn't happen." Unless the screenshots are of epilogue slides, I guess...

Before I read this book, I harbored the exact same doubt. But now having read it it's clear to me that the Rite of Tranquilty is actually reversible. Wynne says that before Pharamond was her tranquil friend. The Divine even sanctioned him to do research. And when we meet the guy later on, we see he's cured. I don't think there is any doubt to this, unless for some reason Wynne and the Divine were both lying.

Anyway, as far as Tevinter is concerned, I don't know. Maybe they have tried and just never figured it out. It's supposed to take a lot of lyrium to enter the Fade, and that stuff is meant to be very expensive in the Imperium.

The "cheapest" way is to look for the already existing tears in the Veil. I don't think Pharamond entered the Fade. Remember what he says? "Long ago I realized that Tranquility wasn't repairalble on this side of the Fade. It needed to be done from the other side. A spirit has to bridge that gap... it needs to be lured." (I'd have used the word "Veil" instead of "Fade" in what he said. I don't know how the Fade can have "sides," the way it's said. But well, perhaps I might have misunderstood something.)

I suppose, if you've read the novel by now, perhaps you might have come to similar conclusions about the Rite being reversible.

EDIT: Fixed some formatting issues and typos.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 13 janvier 2012 - 08:54 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

DreGregoire wrote...

I finished the book just over a half hour ago and it is definately a-lot of information to take in.

I'm not sure in what sense you mean it, but I wouldn't say there is a lot of information - just that there is greater clarity in what is written. The hallmark for me is that it seems as if Gaider has gone out of his way to present different points of view, and has added clarity to how things happened. Which for me is just excellent!

What I enjoyed the most is that although the warden and the champion events were mentioned yet there was no name giving or gender so it made me feel as if my warden and/or champion could easily have fit into the tale. Kudos for that! Carefully avoiding specifics must have been difficult. I haven't had much time to think about all the specifics but another thing I loved is how the further breakdown of the mage system was shown. There is no question that the events in Ferelden and then in Kirkwall were paramount in the breakdown, but the events of Asunder trashed it beyond what can easily be repaired. The Seeker that comes to Kirkwall (if I have my timing correct) a year after the events of Asunder, or shortly after, who is seeking aid from people who have/had significant impact in the world makes much more sense to me now. Go ahead and call me on the timing but I'm pretty sure in the book it mentions the events happening two one years ago, which would work out to be the ninth year since Hawke arrived in Kirkwall and Cassandra shows up in the tenth year. . I'm sure I have much more to say but that is all for now. LOL!

Edit: Correction: one year ago the mages rebelled in Kirkwall. Speed reading through the novel a secondtime. LOL!

Well, while timelines might help, I don't think you need to focus on that to see the sequence of events. When Cassandra is interrogating Varric, both mages and templars have rebelled, and have divorced ties with the Chantry (the "general" term, I'd assume), and the Chantry is in pieces/powerless. This according to me is after what transpired at the end of Asunder. How I see it: the events of DA2 provided the spark of rebellion, and the events of Asunder actually set the stage for the war, and now Cassandra is interrogating Varric perhaps after the war has started.

I'm however not so certain on the nature of Cassandra's mission. That a seeker (and a bunch of warriors) was actually travelling with Leliana seems to imply that perhaps at least some of the seekers are no longer sure they can win the war? Or perhaps even they don't desire war, as Cassandra actually claims? What they think the Warden and/or the Champion can repair/undo/do remains to be seen.

[Augustei]

It seems the anvil of the void being destroyed is part of the set canon for the novels/comics etc that they are using. Since Evangeline is surprised by shale and says how the art of golem making is lost to the dwarves.. If the Anvil of the Void was found and they were back to making them you'd think that'd be news big enough to make it to Orlais and the chantry..

Also I bet Ferelden gets dragged into the civil war in Orlais due to Celene likely fleeing there when Gaspard pushes through to Jader (bet he will =D) then she will probably flee to Denerim or Redcliffe or something. From there things will get ugly for Ferelden and hopefully Nevarra takes advantage of the situation and begins invading Orlais twould be sweet.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just got the vibe that everybody is essentially leaping to the defense of the mages or trying to help them, it seems like the side of people we've met in the games and the people involved in the conflict that there isn't much for the Templar. Though they've got the prejudices to deal with, I feel the Divine going around saying "Mages aren't bad, don't help the renegade Templar" would put a lot of people at ease.

You're missing the context. We've actually gone from the (the previous) Divine Beatrix III stating "Mages?! Are we under attack?!" with just the mention of the word "mages" in her ears, to actually (the current) Divine Justinia V questioning whether the Rite of Tranquilty can be improved and mages who can't control their powers can be made to lose magic while retaining their emotions. I don't know about you, but that's a definite improvement for me.

[Augustei]

Best part of the book I felt was either the Orlesian ball (the whole thing) or when the divine was meeting with Pharamond and the mages and seekers. When things were about to break out into a fight and Leliana had the sword to Lord Seeker "Dont be a fool!" was cool.

Liked Lord Seeker Lambert found him pretty cool, Liked Wynne and Shale and Rhys.. Cole was alright apart from the constant depressing aura of his with his head between his knees sobbing, Understandably so I know but it got tiresome. Divine was cool as well displaying her ability to play the game. Evangeline was pretty cool she reminded me of Aveline for some reason.

Hated Adrian and Fiona though. Especially Adrian. Oh and Leliana was awesome =D

Also did we ever find out who the guy is on the cover? I got the feeling it was Lord Seeker Lambart.......or Cole dispite the helmet with Andraste on it

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 janvier 2012 - 09:42 .

[Morroian]

Sylvianus wrote...

compassion, rigid notions guide that person, yes. It is not suitable enough to the reality that the templar job is thankless, ruthless. Yes, more compassion, more humanity.

But her thoughts to me are those of a person who can be easily manipulated, by feelings, emotions and ect. Blood mages and demons are masters of lies and deceit. She can be easily betrayed.

Demons, abominations, evil mages who act against their will, all that could hit her hard, and show that it is more complicated than that, and sometimes very difficult decisions must be made.

She has completely jumped on the bandwagon of " let's help mages, freedom,  you're human, I love you)

The mages, voted to fight, why is she with Rhys at the end ? She has forgotten what they could be ?

Because she loves Rhys, she has nowhere else to go and she realises that the templars are not staying true to their ideals. Being manipulated by compasssion is your inference, its not portrayed in the book. She didn't help the mages at the end because she loved Rhys she helped them because it was the right thing to do. Thats not being manipulated by compassion and in fact I think she wouldn't have turned on the templars if Lambert was more reasonable.

Modifié par Morroian, 13 janvier 2012 - 11:14 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

Can't seem to edit my previous post to add this:

One other thing I'm curious about is the fact that Cole was able to hear the call of the Archdemon while Wynne and company were in the Fade.

It wasn't actually in the Fade that Cole hears the music, unless I'm mistaken. And I wouldn't say it's the call of the Archdemon - at least one of the times it didn't appear to be. He hears it first when he's at the Badlands approaching Adamant Fortress - perhaps near the great chasm? This I believe is what the darkspawn also hear; probably this could be the call of the Archdemon. Here his experience is described as "unpleasant." Later on, simultaneously with the ritual that the mages perform at Adamant he hears, apparently, another kind of music - only described as "so strange and different" from what he heard at the Badlands. I believe this is the same music the mages (or at least Rhys) also hear when performing the ritual - the music from pure lyrium.

Hearing the "song" is a trait of the darkspawn, Grey Wardens in their Calling, and corrupted ghouls (people who don't immediately die from being tainted, only to slowly be corrupted instead). There also seems to be a connection to lyrium (witness Varric's brother after being corrupted by the lyrium statue).

In my belief, lyrium is actually the key.  Based upon whether pure lyrium is corrupted or not, one might hear different "versions" of the song. What that might mean or why might that be is anybody's guess.

Cole seems to be a spirit, but he could hear the song, too. What's that about?

Justice in Awakening also hears the song from pure lyrium. Perhaps all spirits when they're in the mortal realm do. So now - what relation do spirits have with lyrium? It's a curious question.

[MichaelFinnegan]

megski wrote...

I do also want to point out, that in the book there is obvious templar corruption present. It isn't like Meredith where you simply get the impression, just no valid proof. The lord seeker asks Evangeline, as the mage's templar escort, to lie several times, even before completing the mission at hand. In other words, before he even knows what is going on, before they even get started, he asks Evangeline to murder the mages she is traveling with, and wants her to sabotage as much as she can along the way.

There are four kinds of templars mentalities projected, I believe, and none of which seemed to me to be any kind of corruption, at least of the inordinary kind.

The Lord Seeker, the hard, uncompromising kind, who'd do anything to hold on to his blind assumptions - that mages, if left to rule for themselves, would end up ruling everything, that inch by inch they'd (re)capture power, and that the Rite of Tranquility was his one (should I say?) "uncorruptible" weapon. Arnaud, the vicious and malicious kind - the one who'd torment mages, if not for anything other than simply for his own pleasure. Evangeline, the one with an open mind who slowly begins to realize what the Order has come to represent and how it no longer serves its original purpose (at least what she considers that purpose was). She is how Cullen would have been I think - if Cullen's character were given more development time during DA2. And the rest of the templars - rank and file - who'd unquestioningly follow authority - whose authority? that remains to be seen I suppose.

The divine even wants to help reform and is listening more to the mages than anyone, but she hasn't made a decision on if she is even going to follow through. Without her even deciding anything, the lord seeker (the epilogue) decides to not discuss anything with her or the chantry, and proclaims that he and the rest of the templar order are separating from the chantry.

When the Divine orders the Lord Seeker to her side, that facilitates the assault on the White Spire and the release of the imprisoned mages, Lambert makes up his mind that the Divine is against what the templars are supposed to represent, and based on that he declares the Accord to be nul. I think it's not out of character for the man when he made that decision.

ETA:  And I do want to point out too that the mages didn't necessarily break away from the chantry, but the circle.  Without the Templars, the chantry is left undefended.  I'm not sure if breaking away from the circle also means the chantry too.

Well, if you consider the Circle as the biggest link of the mages to the Chantry, and it is through the Circle system that the Chantry has authority over and control of the mages, it'd stand to reason that once the Circle system has broken down the mages are no longer under the control of the Chantry (and templars). I'd interpret the rebellion of the mages was also against this authority of the Chantry.

[MichaelFinnegan]

twincast wrote...

Anyway, I read through the whole thread earlier today and there hasn't really been a discussion about Cole so far. (Who by the way obviously is on the back of the cover. Come to think about it, putting him and Lambert on it is also quite the interesting decision IMHO.)

So, what kind of spirit do you think he (originally) was? I'd say Compassion. Keeping the real Cole company and much of his inner dialog seems to me to point to it, but he could be almost any kind, no? And what would be the "corrupted" term for Compassion? (... Heh, Cole, Compassion, coincident?)

Spirit of compassion? Makes sense. Although I don't know what the corrupted version of compassion is, I think what Cole practiced was mercy killing, with a selfish element to it.

Cole has been the most complex chracter in this novel for me. I still don't know what to think about him. Well, Cole did exist, the templars did erase all records about him out of shame that they "forgot" he was there in that cell and let him die. Perhaps one'd have to reconcile that notion with the idea that spirits become confused when the walk across the Veil, and confusion (at least about his reality) is apparent throughout the book. I'm befuddled where the spirit begins and Cole ends, or the other way around. And his strange ability and its link with the Litany of Adralla? Blood magic? So the murders were actually not merely to preserve his reality, but also were to enhance his ability? As one can probably tell, I'm confused with all this...

And Rhys says at the end that he thinks he killed those six mages himself, but it frankly makes much less sense to me than Cole having done it.

Indeed it was strange. I suppose Rhys is consumed by guilt more than anything else - that indirectly their blood is on his hands. And probably two things are at work. The first one being that Rhys being a spirit medium, he could have summoned the spirit, that eventually went on to possess Cole. And the second one was probably regarding when the murders actually began - after Rhys began to notice Cole, and how he didn't make the connections to Cole earlier. The Lord Seeker puts enough doubt in Rhys mind, and it is compounded by the fact that Rhys does not truly know that there was actually a person named Cole, whose records were erased by the templars - only we as readers do, at least we are led to believe that. So the only thing that Rhys has to go on is what he witnesses in the Fade, and how honest he thought Cole was.

Cole was an interesting character.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Excellent, thanks for the clarification. I retain my suspicions if stuff is not witnessed, as Bioware writers are not above being deliberately misleading or outright changing their minds for story purposes. In more modern terms: "Screenshots or it didn't happen." Unless the screenshots are of epilogue slides, I guess...

Before I read this book, I harbored the exact same doubt. But now having read it it's clear to me that the Rite of Tranquilty is actually reversible. Wynne says that before Pharamond was her tranquil friend. The Divine even sanctioned him to do research. And when we meet the guy later on, we see he's cured. I don't think there is any doubt to this, unless for some reason Wynne and the Divine were both lying.

Well, I don't know about lying, but we, as the reader, never meet Pharamond when he's Tranquil if I'm not mistaken. If we did, then meeting him later as a cured mage would hold more weight.

What Wynne says has been in conflict with other game lore before. One example is the Litany of Adralla. While the codex says Adralla was originally a Tevinter magister (which I believe the Lord Seeker echoes in Asunder?), Wynne's dialogue in DA:O claims Adralla was a bard in service to Divine Clemence I. Here's the dialogue in question, since it's not referenced on the wiki:

Wynne said...

"Adralla was a bard in the service of Divine Clemence I during the second Exalted March."
"The Schism had split the Chantry into the one we know and the Imperial Chantry, in Tevinter. There was much mistrust of the Tevinter Imperium at this time, as you can imagine."
"Even though the Imperial Chantry had forbade blood magic, the Chantry--our Chantry--did not believe them."
"After all, many of the Tevinter mages, and even their magister lords, had used blood magic with impunity throughout history."
"Together with the help of the Chantry and its templars, Adralla wrote the Litany, to protect against the mind-controlling abilities of blood mages."

So while I'm sure Wynne wouldn't lie, I'm not sure how reliable she is.

[MichaelFinnegan]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Cole's situation, especially at the end, is why I felt the last 15% felt rushed.

Rushed? Perhaps. But it's also possible that the writers still want to keep the nature of spirits and demons secret. Cole is the big mystery in this story.

Why was Cole not aware of what he was while in the Fade,

Being in the Fade doesn't prove whether one is a spirit or not. Unless you mean something else?

but all of a sudden the Litany of Adralla wakes him up to what he is?

Yes, the fact that the Litany interrupted Cole's powers showed to Rhys that Cole possessed the power of mind control. And the rest of Cole's realization came probably from Rhys' words, when he acknowledged to the Lord Seeker that Cole was a spirit.

That itself led to too many questions for me...I have no real idea what Cole is or how he really existed in the world. The blinking from existence was just a part that for me was a departure from what the buildup was.

I'd at this point ask, he blinked away from whose sense of existence? I'd have to assume that it was from the notice of Rhys and perhaps the Lord Seeker, and apparently we, the readers, since it's Rhys' POV that is being presented. Yet, the very fact that Cole re-appeared later on perhaps shows that he didn't entirely vanish. Unless of course he went to the Fade and came back later.

Now the real question is whether Rhys would ever see Cole again - now that he is convinced that Cole is a spirit and was never real. Rhys doesn't know that there was actually a person called Cole, and probably thinks that Cole's reality in the Fade was a fragment of his imagination.

But I echo your confusion. I'm not sure what form of a spirit Cole was possessed by; all I have are some vague concepts.

Pacifien wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
@Pacifen...I
disagree about Cole and blood magic...as early as the murder of the
little girl Cole feels her blood keeps him from fading out of the
world...so I think blood magic is a very big part of Cole's existence in
this world.

While looking up the reference on Genetivi, I
passed through the first conversation Lambert and Rhys have about Cole.
Lambert says that a spirit would need to inhabit a body that could
produce the blood magic for him or the spirit would need to manipulate
another to do the magic for him. The implication is that Rhys did the
killing for Cole, and it's worth noting that once Rhys makes the
connection between Cole and the murders, there are no other murders.
Cole has the chance to do it twice and relents both times because Cole
knows Rhys wouldn't want it. In truth, without Rhys, Cole *couldn't* do
it. That's if what Lambert was saying was correct.

But the other
explanation is that the blood had nothing to do with it. It was how the
people looked at Cole that was more important. In the last moment of
their lives, Cole was the most important person in the entire world.
Whatever type of spirit Cole was, he fed off that attention they gave
him in those few moments as if it was that emotional connection that
grounded him to this world and not the blood they shed. When he stopped
killing, he didn't fade away. He felt himself slip into that darkness,
particularly when he tapped deep into his power, but he was learning to
fight back and keep himself grounded, probably because he had somehow
made Rhys his entire reason for being at that point.

Which is sweet in a creepy Fade spirit kind of a way, I guess.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps the latter explanation makes more sense - that perhaps blood magic had nothing to do with it. What we've encountered is a new form of magic altogether - and the Litany simply works against all forms of mind control, whether cast by a blood mage or not. It is definitely creepy, though.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Excellent, thanks for the clarification. I retain my suspicions if stuff is not witnessed, as Bioware writers are not above being deliberately misleading or outright changing their minds for story purposes. In more modern terms: "Screenshots or it didn't happen." Unless the screenshots are of epilogue slides, I guess...

Before I read this book, I harbored the exact same doubt. But now having read it it's clear to me that the Rite of Tranquilty is actually reversible. Wynne says that before Pharamond was her tranquil friend. The Divine even sanctioned him to do research. And when we meet the guy later on, we see he's cured. I don't think there is any doubt to this, unless for some reason Wynne and the Divine were both lying.

Well, I don't know about lying, but we, as the reader, never meet Pharamond when he's Tranquil if I'm not mistaken. If we did, then meeting him later as a cured mage would hold more weight.

What Wynne says has been in conflict with other game lore before. One example is the Litany of Adralla. While the codex says Adralla was originally a Tevinter magister (which I believe the Lord Seeker echoes in Asunder?), Wynne's dialogue in DA:O claims Adralla was a bard in service to Divine Clemence I. Here's the dialogue in question, since it's not referenced on the wiki:

Wynne said...

"Adralla was a bard in the service of Divine Clemence I during the second Exalted March."
"The Schism had split the Chantry into the one we know and the Imperial Chantry, in Tevinter. There was much mistrust of the Tevinter Imperium at this time, as you can imagine."
"Even though the Imperial Chantry had forbade blood magic, the Chantry--our Chantry--did not believe them."
"After all, many of the Tevinter mages, and even their magister lords, had used blood magic with impunity throughout history."
"Together with the help of the Chantry and its templars, Adralla wrote the Litany, to protect against the mind-controlling abilities of blood mages."

So while I'm sure Wynne wouldn't lie, I'm not sure how reliable she is.

Hmm. Was Wynne mistaken? Possibly, there is a slight chance of it happening. But we're not discussing Wynne's understanding of the Circles'/Chantry history, which seems like a huge collection of different persons' interpretations, mixed in with some facts here and there. We're debating about a close friend of Wynne who was a tranquil. Wynne admits to Rhys that she "over the years" was visiting Pharamond (the tranquil) when he was carrying out his research. And as supporting evidence we have the Divine acknowledging that she'd sanctioned Pharamond's research. And it is quite plain that to both of these women Phramond the tranquil has been restored with his emotions (of his magic, I'm unsure). So, at this point, I'm left with the question of whether both these women (and not to forget Pharamond) were wrong somehow or perhaps both were lying. It's possible that they both (and Pharamond) could be lying, just to use this as an elaborate ruse to kick start reforms. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

In a sense, I guess I'm somewhat agreeing with you. Geez! Thanks for planting that doubt in my mind - just when I thought I was certain about one thing in Asunder....

[Sylvianus]

Morroian wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

compassion, rigid notions guide that person, yes. It is not suitable enough to the reality that the templar job is thankless, ruthless. Yes, more compassion, more humanity.

But her thoughts to me are those of a person who can be easily manipulated, by feelings, emotions and ect. Blood mages and demons are masters of lies and deceit. She can be easily betrayed.

Demons, abominations, evil mages who act against their will, all that could hit her hard, and show that it is more complicated than that, and sometimes very difficult decisions must be made.

She has completely jumped on the bandwagon of " let's help mages, freedom,  you're human, I love you)

The mages, voted to fight, why is she with Rhys at the end ? She has forgotten what they could be ?

Because she loves Rhys, she has nowhere else to go and she realises that the templars are not staying true to their ideals. Being manipulated by compasssion is your inference, its not portrayed in the book. She didn't help the mages at the end because she loved Rhys she helped them because it was the right thing to do. Thats not being manipulated by compassion and in fact I think she wouldn't have turned on the templars if Lambert was more reasonable.

No, there isn't a right thing to do in the end ( when mages vote ), she just choose a side. I disagree with her solution, why it would be the right thing to do ? It's like  you'd believe it's black and white, and that's why, I am not buying it. ( DAO, DA2, etc etc )  hundreds of free mages who choose to be independent and fighting, among them, LIBERTARIAN FRATERNITY, hundreds who may become blood mages and abominations. But it has never crossed her mind, of course, they are just poor innocent people who are rebelling, which is partly true, but also partly wrong.  And this is the part that was completely forgotten.

  And how she is portrayed in  the book, show me, that she can be manipulated in other situations. I never said she helped the mages just because she loved Rhys, also she let her feelings alterate her mind, that's a fact. Like I said, this book was really positive about mages, and almost out of reality, that's why it is easy to think she did the right thing, as if mages were only portrayed as innocent people, and templar as bad.

She is a good person, a good soldier, but a bad templar, she doesn't know what this job needs, except compassions for mages. She doesn't know how difficult it is, she is just an idealistic person. Otherwise she couldn't stand that in the same time, they decide to fight and to be free. She didn't care at all that they refused the loyalist's thought, that would have allowed maybe the discussion. No she just holds the hand of her honey and end of line.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 07:16 .

[Sylvianus]

Camenae wrote...

Okay, that's actually a pretty good point of view. I still don't think Evangeline merits a reaction quite so venomous, but I do see what you mean. And I do agree that she wasn't faced with any difficult decisions, only black-and-white situations. So there's no call to worship her as a hero. But then again you don't have to be a hero to just be simply a good person.

Well, thank you, exactly.  I said however that she was a good soldier.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 janvier 2012 - 06:44 .

[Gervaise]

On the subject of spirits/demons - there is a definite theme of invisibility in the book. Cole is invisible to people and easily forgotten by those who have seen him. He can effectively will people not to see him when there is a possibility they might, for example when he is about to cut the templars' throats. Then there is Pharamond's explanation of why demons generally aren't interested in tranquil, because they are invisible to them, mentally speaking rather than physically.

Rhys' declaration at the end of the book that nothing we previously assumed about magic can now be considered certain is probably the developers way of saying that if something new or different crops up in DA3, then we shouldn't start crying foul.

However, with respect to the knowledge that tranquility can be reversed. No doubt they are aware of this in Tevinter but I have always been of the opinion that it was first invented there, not as a means of stopping possession but as a means of punishing rebel mages, so naturally there would be no incentive to make this knowledge widely known. I have always felt that it had to have been invented by a mage because non-mages really wouldn't get the significance of the severence from the Fade or how to do it but you would have to be a pretty nasty minded mage to invent the process and then promote it to non mages to use against your fellows. I haven't come across a single mage in the game that actually likes the idea of tranquility.

What puzzles me is why it makes a person so "invisible" to spirits so that you practically have to put a flag on them to get them to notice them, when animals and even trees can be possessed given the right circumstances.

One other thing that is never elaborated on with regard to Pharamond is that he claims he was restored to his full faculties before he became possessed. As other poster's have noted, there is no actual evidence that after Wynne de-possesses him, he actually has any sort of magical power. He has extreme emotion, which is implied to be the result of getting them back so abruptly but could equally be a side effect of the former possession. Marethari claimed that someone is never the same once they have been possessed even if you can drive the demon out and while Connor might have seemed okay, may be that was just because being so young, his mind had a better chance to heal itself. So far as I can remember, he is the only person we have encountered previously who was cured of possession and even there I seem to recall Eamon saying something about him being very quite, like his personality had changed as a result of his experience. We are also never told exactly why Pharamond was made tranquil in the first place but the Lord Seeker does say something to the effect that the reasons he was made tranquil are still true, which could imply that it was the fact that Pharamond was formerly highly emotional that made him seem at risk of possession. People seem to forget that it was formerly claimed that the decision about whether or not a mage should be made tranquil to avoid possession was normally made by the First Enchanter (possibly in consultation with other Senior Enchanters), normally with the agreement of the apprentice but not always. The templars may have carried out the process but it was only used as a punishment against apostates.

I think Cole may have simply been voluntarily possessed by a desire demon. Usually people's desires are for wealth or power, in other words something tangible, but Cole just wanted to be left alone, to literally disappear, and that is what the demon gave him. The demon was keeping him alive but he still had control of his mind and that is why it said at the end that it was helpless because his desires weren't of the normal type that would give it strength. When the templars found him, the demon created the illusion of him being dead and wasted away - may be that was even the reality - but he was being kept alive in much the same way Wynne's faith spirit kept her alive. Then when Lambert revealed to Cole the truth of the matter, he lost control of the situation and literally disappeared, leaving the demon which returned to take revenge on Lambert and was no longer helpless. That is one explanation anyway.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Hmm. Was Wynne mistaken? Possibly, there is a slight chance of it happening. But we're not discussing Wynne's understanding of the Circles'/Chantry history, which seems like a huge collection of different persons' interpretations, mixed in with some facts here and there. We're debating about a close friend of Wynne who was a tranquil. Wynne admits to Rhys that she "over the years" was visiting Pharamond (the tranquil) when he was carrying out his research. And as supporting evidence we have the Divine acknowledging that she'd sanctioned Pharamond's research. And it is quite plain that to both of these women Phramond the tranquil has been restored with his emotions (of his magic, I'm unsure). So, at this point, I'm left with the question of whether both these women (and not to forget Pharamond) were wrong somehow or perhaps both were lying. It's possible that they both (and Pharamond) could be lying, just to use this as an elaborate ruse to kick start reforms. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

In a sense, I guess I'm somewhat agreeing with you. Geez! Thanks for planting that doubt in my mind - just when I thought I was certain about one thing in Asunder....

Heh. FWIW I am sure it's true for the book (book lore following into games I'm less certain of). If Pharamond was truly Wynne's friend, he was truly a Tranquil and neither Wynne nor the Divine have a motive for hiding the truth, then it probably happened as they said it happened. I *am* curious to learn if magic was restored or only emotion however. You'd think that would have been an important thing to relay, but vagueness often has a purpose. :/

Did Pharamond restore himself alone (ignoring any spirit/demon influence)? I'm extremely skeptical about a Tranquil entering the Fade and attracting the attention of one of its kindlier denizens by himself.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I'm curious how Fiona became Grand Enchanter. I would think the Templars would be suspicious, seeing as a Grey Warden mage has almost certainly practiced blood magic. More importantly, her status as a Libertarian should have warranted her summary execution.

She probably had sex with someone important. It's who you know and who you blow.

[Urzon]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'm curious how Fiona became Grand Enchanter. I would think the Templars would be suspicious, seeing as a Grey Warden mage has almost certainly practiced blood magic. More importantly, her status as a Libertarian should have warranted her summary execution.

She probably had sex with someone important. It's who you know and who you blow.

We do know that she had sex with someone important, King Maric.

Maybe as one last favor for her, he pulled some strings to get her into the Circle. Though, we would need to know how long she has been in the Circle. Since it would have to be before Maric disappeared before DAO.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Heh. FWIW I am sure it's true for the book (book lore following into games I'm less certain of). If Pharamond was truly Wynne's friend, he was truly a Tranquil and neither Wynne nor the Divine have a motive for hiding the truth, then it probably happened as they said it happened.

You're probably right about the lore from the book not being carried over into future games.

I *am* curious to learn if magic was restored or only emotion however. You'd think that would have been an important thing to relay, but vagueness often has a purpose. :/

The impression I got was that magic was also restored, seeing how Pharamond became possessed right after he cured himself - implying perhaps he'd again become a mage, once again strongly connected to the Fade. I could be easily wrong.

Did Pharamond restore himself alone (ignoring any spirit/demon influence)? I'm extremely skeptical about a Tranquil entering the Fade and attracting the attention of one of its kindlier denizens by himself.

Yes, he alone appears to have cured himself, at least that's what he says. Perhaps some elaboration is in order. What I'm about to write below is heavily spoiler-ish, so don't read unless you don't mind.

The idea, as I understood it, is simple. A tranquil is simply undesirable to a spirit or a demon because of two reasons: the demon cannot get what it wants by possessing a tranquil (the "true" experience of life); and the tranquil will resist possession. There is nothing in it for the demon. This undesirability it is assumed is a "gap" that needs to be bridged/crossed/overcome if the tranquil needs to get himself reconnected to the Fade, and therefore to regain his dreams and emotions.

So what did Pharamond do, exactly? He went to a place (the Adamant Fortress) where the Veil was already thin. And he attempted to communicate with a demon. And he got more than he bargained for, in the end. It appears he initially proceeded with the assumption that he needed to attempt to become possessed in order for his condition to be reversed; but later (I suspect that it was during this process itself) he seemed to have realized that what was really needed was simply to coax any spirit to reach into his mind, and connect (communicate?) with it, so as to bridge permanently that gap of undesirabilty.

He went ahead and contacted a powerful demon. He took some precautions though. First, he attempted this after informing the other inhabitants of the Fortress, and getting their permission - who supposedly were sympathetic to his condition of being a tranquil. The doors of the Fortress were sealed shut to attempt to contain any "situation" within, if things ever went out of hand (and apparently the Mayor of the Fortress suggested this idea to seal the doors). And, as a further precaution, he surrounded himself with a circle of enchantments (runes, the kind that tranquil are capable of enchanting), which was supposed to trap the abomination within, if the demon ever succeeded in possessing him. But things go wrong. Not only does he become possessed, but also many other demons pour through the Veil and possess everyone within the Fortress. All the other inhabitants (except one) die in the end.

So here's what I think happened: first, he communicated with the demon near the Veil tear, from within the protective wall of runes. As soon as the demon "saw" him and reached into his mind, he was cured - his emotions returned. But along with his emotions, returned his susceptibility for demonic influence. And he ended up being possessed by the very demon that cured him. Perhaps having crossed the Veil that demon summoned other demons and the rest of the Fortress also fell. The abomination however was trapped within the circle of runes.

Pharamond later says that perhaps a much less risky approach would have been to coax a powerful enough (benign) spirt to actually reach into his mind. This could have been done with the help of someone like Rhys or even Wynne, who are spirit mediums, i.e. mages who can summon spirits from across the Veil, and maybe even control them. Whether this idea gets applied in the future remains to be seen. Pharamond is the only tranquil shown as cured in the novel.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gervaise wrote...

On the subject of spirits/demons - there is a definite theme of invisibility in the book. Cole is invisible to people and easily forgotten by those who have seen him. He can effectively will people not to see him when there is a possibility they might, for example when he is about to cut the templars' throats. Then there is Pharamond's explanation of why demons generally aren't interested in tranquil, because they are invisible to them, mentally speaking rather than physically.

I don't have a clear grasp on Cole's invisibility, but the way the tranquil are invisible to spirits and demons is somewhat elaborated upon, I thought.

However, with respect to the knowledge that tranquility can be reversed. No doubt they are aware of this in Tevinter but I have always been of the opinion that it was first invented there, not as a means of stopping possession but as a means of punishing rebel mages, so naturally there would be no incentive to make this knowledge widely known. I have always felt that it had to have been invented by a mage because non-mages really wouldn't get the significance of the severence from the Fade or how to do it but you would have to be a pretty nasty minded mage to invent the process and then promote it to non mages to use against your fellows. I haven't come across a single mage in the game that actually likes the idea of tranquility.

That's certainly an interesting idea. Who knows what we might learn in the future? Tevinter is one thing that is conspicuously absent till now, but my suspicion is that we'll soon get there.

What puzzles me is why it makes a person so "invisible" to spirits so that you practically have to put a flag on them to get them to notice them, when animals and even trees can be possessed given the right circumstances.

Tranquil also resist possession. It's somehow in their very nature.

One other thing that is never elaborated on with regard to Pharamond is that he claims he was restored to his full faculties before he became possessed. As other poster's have noted, there is no actual evidence that after Wynne de-possesses him, he actually has any sort of magical power. He has extreme emotion, which is implied to be the result of getting them back so abruptly but could equally be a side effect of the former possession.

I think being formerly possessed by a demon had much less to do with his hightened emotional state than the other aspect - being no longer a tranquil. Losing emotions and getting it back all at once, only to realize that he was the cause for the slaughter of everyone at the Fortress would not have been easy.

We are also never told exactly why Pharamond was made tranquil in the first place but the Lord Seeker does say something to the effect that the reasons he was made tranquil are still true, which could imply that it was the fact that Pharamond was formerly highly emotional that made him seem at risk of possession.

Yes, I suppose that's true. But although Pharamond was overjoyed not to be a tranquil anymore, we have to remember that it was actually the Divine who even caused him to investigate into the nature of Tranquility in the first place. The Lord Seeker, although his argument is probably true, is also (stubbornly) missing the point. It was clearly Pharamond's methods that needed to be questioned, not the nature of inquiry into bettering Tranquility. And we need to note further that the Divine actually agrees to making Pharamond tranquil again - she understands the reasons.

People seem to forget that it was formerly claimed that the decision about whether or not a mage should be made tranquil to avoid possession was normally made by the First Enchanter (possibly in consultation with other Senior Enchanters), normally with the agreement of the apprentice but not always. The templars may have carried out the process but it was only used as a punishment against apostates.

I'm not sure about the First Enchanter, but we've looked into the lives of two senior enchanters now (Rhys and Adrian) and it's apparent they had no idea who were being made tranquil and for what reasons. Of course, the official line would be that tranquility would only be carried out against apostates, those unable to resist demonic possession, or those willfully engaging demons. But who believes the offical line, anyway?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ahh, I see, thank you for explaining it in so much depth

But this bit I don't understand. If the Rite renders Tranquil invisible to demons and spirits, then how did Pharamond, a Tranquil, get the attention of one? Shouldn't that be impossible without help? Or are Tranquil only invisible to spirits and demons in the Fade itself, so a thin Veil gets around that? I don't expect answers for these, I'm just throwing questions around.

It seems awfully plot-convenient that Pharamond is cured of being an abomination as well, but maybe that's me. I don't know who had that 'breakthrough' for the cure or how they had it, but I find myself hoping that curing Formari won't be an easy 'phone-a-spirit' affair. That'd be way too cheap IMO. :/ Not that I understand how the Rite severs the connection, but usually broken things aren't glued back together without scars, and even then the glue is a foreign substancs...'Magic' is too easy an answer.

Edit: But I realise I'm criticising concepts of a book I haven't even read yet and might be wrong about, so I'll stop right there.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 14 janvier 2012 - 01:16 .