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[Gibb_Shepard]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't think Rhys killed those people. Cole, as demonstrated in the book, has the power to kill people in reality. He killed those three guards when he went to rescue Rhys with Leliana.

Cole was capable of killing people from the get go. I strongly believe that he was the one killing Spire mages, not a manipulated Rhys.

Also, did Wynne seriously almost pull an Anders? Turn her power to forbidden magic and her spirit into a demon? I may have misunderstood, but if true, that just seems very OOC for her, regardless of the circumstances.

Her son was apparently dead or captured, her protective/vengeful mother side came out.  Not terribly OOC.

Yeah i guess, i just never thought of Wynne as ever doing that. If Wynne can be corrupted by anger, then pretty much any mage can. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't think Rhys killed those people. Cole, as demonstrated in the book, has the power to kill people in reality. He killed those three guards when he went to rescue Rhys with Leliana.

Cole was capable of killing people from the get go. I strongly believe that he was the one killing Spire mages, not a manipulated Rhys.

Also, did Wynne seriously almost pull an Anders? Turn her power to forbidden magic and her spirit into a demon? I may have misunderstood, but if true, that just seems very OOC for her, regardless of the circumstances.

Her son was apparently dead or captured, her protective/vengeful mother side came out.  Not terribly OOC.

Yeah i guess, i just never thought of Wynne as ever doing that. If Wynne can be corrupted by anger, then pretty much any mage can. 

Hence why Meredith and Ser Alrik had the right idea.

[Morroian]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hence why Meredith and Ser Alrik had the right idea.

Re Alrik, what that mages should be raped and persistently physically abused?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't think Rhys killed those people. Cole, as demonstrated in the book, has the power to kill people in reality. He killed those three guards when he went to rescue Rhys with Leliana.

Cole was capable of killing people from the get go. I strongly believe that he was the one killing Spire mages, not a manipulated Rhys.

Also, did Wynne seriously almost pull an Anders? Turn her power to forbidden magic and her spirit into a demon? I may have misunderstood, but if true, that just seems very OOC for her, regardless of the circumstances.

Her son was apparently dead or captured, her protective/vengeful mother side came out.  Not terribly OOC.

Yeah i guess, i just never thought of Wynne as ever doing that. If Wynne can be corrupted by anger, then pretty much any mage can. 

Hence why Meredith and Ser Alrik had the right idea.

Re Meredith, the woman who went just as insane as any blood mage? Riiight.

[Gibb_Shepard]

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I firmly believe that Meredith and Alrik insane and horribly prejudice, however. I just can't see a viable future for mages if even the best can be corrupted so abruptly.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I firmly believe that Meredith and Alrik insane and horribly prejudice, however. I just can't see a viable future for mages if even the best can be corrupted so abruptly.

Well, Wynne is a bit of a special case, sharing a vessel with a spirit and all.

[Gibb_Shepard]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I firmly believe that Meredith and Alrik insane and horribly prejudice, however. I just can't see a viable future for mages if even the best can be corrupted so abruptly.

Well, Wynne is a bit of a special case, sharing a vessel with a spirit and all.

And? It is shown that the Spirit doesn't not influence her in the least bit, other than keeping her alive of course. Hell, it should have detered her from what she attempted even more, knowing that a host's emotions can drastically change the nature of a spirit.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I firmly believe that Meredith and Alrik insane and horribly prejudice, however. I just can't see a viable future for mages if even the best can be corrupted so abruptly.

Well, Wynne is a bit of a special case, sharing a vessel with a spirit and all.

And? It is shown that the Spirit doesn't not influence her in the least bit, other than keeping her alive of course. Hell, it should have detered her from what she attempted even more, knowing that a host's emotions can drastically change the nature of a spirit.

Spirits are dangerous to all involved.

[Gibb_Shepard]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I firmly believe that Meredith and Alrik insane and horribly prejudice, however. I just can't see a viable future for mages if even the best can be corrupted so abruptly.

Well, Wynne is a bit of a special case, sharing a vessel with a spirit and all.

And? It is shown that the Spirit doesn't not influence her in the least bit, other than keeping her alive of course. Hell, it should have detered her from what she attempted even more, knowing that a host's emotions can drastically change the nature of a spirit.

Spirits are dangerous to all involved.

Wow! I just reminisced of Lord Seeker Lambert as soon as you said that.

In this case, of course, the essence of a spirit saved lives. And that's all it did. Nothing else. So claiming that Wynne is a special case because of the spirit is entirely false, as it did nothing other than keep her alive.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 16 janvier 2012 - 05:36 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't think Rhys killed those people. Cole, as demonstrated in the book, has the power to kill people in reality. He killed those three guards when he went to rescue Rhys with Leliana.

Cole was capable of killing people from the get go. I strongly believe that he was the one killing Spire mages, not a manipulated Rhys.

Also, did Wynne seriously almost pull an Anders? Turn her power to forbidden magic and her spirit into a demon? I may have misunderstood, but if true, that just seems very OOC for her, regardless of the circumstances.

Her son was apparently dead or captured, her protective/vengeful mother side came out.  Not terribly OOC.

Yeah i guess, i just never thought of Wynne as ever doing that. If Wynne can be corrupted by anger, then pretty much any mage can. 

Hence why Meredith and Ser Alrik had the right idea.

Re Meredith, the woman who went just as insane as any blood mage? Riiight.

Her breakdown at the end was only more proof to the dangers of magic. Her own ironic stroke of the disease that is magic, however, does not invalidate the excellence of what she was planning to do. Or I suppose still wanted to do, even during the moment of her fall.

Morroian wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hence why Meredith and Ser Alrik had the right idea.

Re Alrik, what that mages should be raped and persistently physically abused?

Of course not, that would be unnecessarily cruel.

In the end neither had what it took, though, be that the smarts to fully carry out their plans or the guts to simply eliminate the problem at its root.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 16 janvier 2012 - 05:58 .

[Morroian]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I don't remember the scene you mean, what exactly happened?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Morroian wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I don't remember the scene you mean, what exactly happened?

When Wynne took the staff that was supposedly given to her by the Warden. I do admit it is up to interpretation, but how EVangeline described Wynne and the type of power that eminated from her, its safe to assume that she was looking to forbidden magic. There is even a dialogue that shows Wynne's deep regret after she saw sense.

[Morroian]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

When Wynne took the staff that was supposedly given to her by the Warden. I do admit it is up to interpretation, but how EVangeline described Wynne and the type of power that eminated from her, its safe to assume that she was looking to forbidden magic. There is even a dialogue that shows Wynne's deep regret after she saw sense.

I thought that was all coming from the staff.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Morroian wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

When Wynne took the staff that was supposedly given to her by the Warden. I do admit it is up to interpretation, but how EVangeline described Wynne and the type of power that eminated from her, its safe to assume that she was looking to forbidden magic. There is even a dialogue that shows Wynne's deep regret after she saw sense.

I thought that was all coming from the staff.

A staff is useless without a mage to control it. She was going to use its power.

[Urzon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

A staff is useless without a mage to control it. She was going to use its power.

I wouldn't discount the staff to much. Objects that are steeped in magics seem to almost grow a life of it own, or just radiate an aura that screams "Take me!" "Use me!" in Thedas, not to mention the corrupting influence they all seem to give off as well.

Just look what happened to Bartrand and the Idol. He didn't even need to be in the room for it to start to take control of him. The Anvil of the Void did the same to Branka.

Too much magic in an object seem to give them The One Ring properties. Even more so when that magic is dark magic.

[Momiji.mii]

I think it was the power of the staff that made Wynne slightly tip to the dark side, but just because people can, in a moment of weakness or extreme emotion, think dark thoughts doesn't mean that they should be shackled permanently. Rhys was able to resist temptation and Wynne too, the latter with help by Evangeline who did what a protector should: she protected Wynne from doing something she'd have regretted later. That goes for everybody, mages are just an extreme example of this, which is the message I've recieved from Dragon Age from the beginning.

It's kind of interesting as a contrast that the Templars use lyrium in order to develop magic gifts in people who'd otherwise not have developed the ability. Mages are hated for their natural-born ability to use magic, a talent they neither asked for nor were responsible for. Templars, on the other hand, develop through semi-scientific methods* a kind of magic that, though highly controlled, is still magic in my opinion. Remember that we've seen possessed templars, sugesting that they too can be swayed by demons.

(*Most likely a trial-and-error method that has probably cost many young Templars their lives.)

I think that the Dragon Age will see a definite shift in how magic is viewed. What was once true will probably be challenged and overthrown, making way for both new institutions and new ways of mixing elements that were formerly seen as separate. Just the way it should be.

Modifié par Momiji.mii, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:47 .

[Morroian]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

A staff is useless without a mage to control it. She was going to use its power.

That doesn't mean she was going to go abomination.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Morroian wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

A staff is useless without a mage to control it. She was going to use its power.

That doesn't mean she was going to go abomination.

In her trauma stricken state, it's impossible to gauge what she would have done. She admitted that she completely lost control of herself.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't think Rhys killed those people. Cole, as demonstrated in the book, has the power to kill people in reality. He killed those three guards when he went to rescue Rhys with Leliana.

Cole was capable of killing people from the get go. I strongly believe that he was the one killing Spire mages, not a manipulated Rhys.

Also, did Wynne seriously almost pull an Anders? Turn her power to forbidden magic and her spirit into a demon? I may have misunderstood, but if true, that just seems very OOC for her, regardless of the circumstances.

Her son was apparently dead or captured, her protective/vengeful mother side came out.  Not terribly OOC.

Yeah i guess, i just never thought of Wynne as ever doing that. If Wynne can be corrupted by anger, then pretty much any mage can.

Probably. I think it'd be unwise to assume that any mage possessed with how much ever experience or wisdom will remain infallible always - situations and circumstances drive people to action, and the permutations and combinations of these are really endless. To me the point isn't that, however. The issue is whether that mage is willing to learn from her mistakes and therefore emerge the stronger from that experience, and it is also how much the rest of the world is willing to give second chances. It is a continuous feedback loop - it has to be, the whole of the world more or less works on the basis of trial and error, mages are no exception, regardless of the magnitude of the effects of their actions.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hence why Meredith and Ser Alrik had the right idea.

Things do not occur in a vacuum. Tell me, by how much can it be established that Wynne's actions weren't at all motivated by the thinking that drives people like Meredith, the Lord Seeker, or Alrik? When a templar starts off with the assumption that all mages must necessarily end up dabbling in forbidden arts, and makes every possible effort to push the mage into practicing that art by enforcing clampdowns that probably were never justified for the situation, what would he expect to bring about in the end? It could be a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Kaiser Shepard]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hence why Meredith and Ser Alrik had the right idea.

Things do not occur in a vacuum. Tell me, by how much can it be established that Wynne's actions weren't at all motivated by the thinking that drives people like Meredith, the Lord Seeker, or Alrik? When a templar starts off with the assumption that all mages must necessarily end up dabbling in forbidden arts, and makes every possible effort to push the mage into practicing that art by enforcing clampdowns that probably were never justified for the situation, what would he expect to bring about in the end? It could be a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Magicide.

[ladyofpayne]

Is there discussion about Calling?

[WardenKing]

(I know spoilers are already mentioned in the title of this thread, but just to be sure, I claim my posts for spoiler alert as well.)

I have now finished the book Asunder and I must say it was awesome, just like the two previous books, although I still prefer The Stolen Throne most. Anyway I enjoyed the book very much, sad to read about Wynne`s passing though, but I guess it had to come sooner or later. I somehow found Cole a little bit annoying, but rather then that everything was good!

I am curious though what will happen next and I guess most of what happens later will play out in DA3. It`s awesome that the mages finally have broken free from the circles and gathered in the wilds, but it makes me wonder where is Anders in all of this. (If he was not killed in Kirkwall, he and Fiona or Adrian would be a good match xD) And what about Lord Seeker Lambert, was he possessed or killed in the end?...I didn`t quite get that, guess I need to read the last part once again soon though, and what about Val Royeaux burning in the end? Is the White Divine replaced or going to be...and is Empress Celene dead or did she manage to defeat Gespard and his allies? So many questions I would like to have answeres to.

Modifié par Captain Eldarion, 18 janvier 2012 - 01:01 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Captain Eldarion wrote...

And what about Lord Seeker Lambert, was he possessed or killed in the end?...I didn`t quite get that

Yeah. Neither did I. I also don't quite know what it meant for Cole to come back that way.

[Patchwork]

It seems to imply Lambert's death but leaves it open, maybe in case BW decide to use him in DA3?

That staff Wynne uses has to the one that drops after killing a darkspawn general. I kept waiting for a description of it's design because it's my favourite style of staff.

IMO the bit with Wynne going momentarily dark side was to show that no mage is above that risk and the templars aren't completely wrong. The problem is that the Chantry and templars have had absolute power over the mages and it's lead to the inevitable abuses.

[Gervaise]

Alot of things were left open at the end, no doubt because they will be covered in DA3.
The empire of Orlais is in meltdown - that much is clear. Whether anyone else will take advantage of this - Qunari or Tevinter is a matter of speculation.
Empress Celene may or may not be dead - possibly finding out what has happend to her will be a quest.
Divine Justina is presumably still alive but quite possibly somewhere other than Val Royeaux. Clearly some Seekers/templars are still loyal to her.
Mages have opted for war but dug in at Andoral's Reach awaiting developments - good defensible position but miles from anywhere and may be difficult to keep supplied.
Templars have probably lost their main leader but may well have been replaced by one of the other Knight Commanders or even Ser Arnaud. However, this may have halted an immediate assault on the mages.
Nothing that we have previously been told about magic can be taken as absolute - freed of the Circle, mages may well discover new types of magic or recover old ones.
As for Cole, his true nature is anyone's guess but I suspect he is likely to turn up in DA3 too.