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[Tommyspa]

labargegrrrl wrote...

Fiona...Anders... possibly a Hawke sibling? "The involvement of the Grey Wardens makes perfect sense."

HA! how about that.

[Heimdall]

tek427 wrote...

Oh, Adrian. I wish Rhys had shoved you off that tower. I had a feeling at the beginning that she would be trouble in some form. She's just like Anders.

Except she doesn't have the excuse of spirit of vengeance unraveling her sanity...

[b09boy]

Just finished the book and I have to say, I did not come away with the best impression. Though it had its moments and some very interesting plotlines, I felt the exectution was largely handled fairly poorly and, because of this, enjoyed The Stolen Throne and The Calling far more.

First problem is that I just could not find it in me to like any of the new characters. Wynne practically made the great moments in the book while Leliana and Shale had their good moments. Lambert has an interesting backstory and some potential, but is inevitably too unforgiving to sympathize with (and this is coming from a Loghain and moderate templar supporter). Justina had her moments, but was barely featured. Cole was interesting, but I found his interactions with others to be way off; the amount of sympathy he gets as a serial killer is screwy and sort of ruins the character to me. Meanwhile, I wanted to throttle Adrian start to finish (probably as intended, to be fair). But then we get to Rhys, Evangeline and Fiona. Fiona came across as an older version of Adrian, which was disappointing, but our two protagonists were what really grated on me. Rhys is kind of built up by others as better than he shows himself to be. He is remarkably underwhelming, important only for his relationship with Wynne. People seem to think he is a voice of reason, yet more often than not he ends up shooting his mouth off on something I can't agree with. Meanwhile, Evangeline I found to be far too passive for most of the story. She's supposed to be good, for a templar, yet is leniant on absolutely everything until the end where she turns pro mage, in which she basically becomes passive to anything regarding mages and stubborn toward everything else. I mean, the woman allows a serial killer who happens to be invisible and is likely a demon to wander around alive and unrestrained.

But what really grated on me throughout was the lack of a moderate opinion on the subject at hand; that being independence from the circle. It's basically Lambert and his extreme restrictions on one side and the Libertarians who want complete independence on the other. The moderates are Wynne and the Divine, who want to change things for the better, but they get drowned out and, by the end, aren't in the picture. It's like, ok the heavy restrictions suck, we get that. But we also know there's a reason they exist. So...what is the proposed alternative? What changes would the libertarians make? It's maddening. It's two extremes with nobody speaking any sense or making any actual arguments aside from, 'this is the way we should do it!' WHY?

It's like those cheap stories where you have an evil empire and the good rebels. Only not much reason is given for why the empire is evil and the rebels never get around to saying what system they'd put in place instead. What exactly do they hope to accomplish? Better lives for themselves, but what does that entail?

This is all highlighted at the end. There MUST be a vote: destroy the Circles, or submit back under them. Except, the supposed enemy leader wants to change things. So...why don't they attempt to negotiate? To create a new system? They know the Divine wants to help yet they never even try. If I were her I'd see the mages as unreasonable and, seeing as they are also completely unsupervised, dangerous as well, and would be moving to starve them out.

This actually makes me worry for DA3. In DA2 there is no middle ground. You're pro mage or pro templar, and the moderates are removed from the picture so you can't choose them. In Asunder they're pro mage or pro templar and the moderates get removed from the equation. Must it be pure freedom or a grizzly prison? Is that what the choice will come down to?

So yeah, was great seeing Wynne, Shale and Leliana again, was fun hearing about old exploits, and Cole's backstory was truly an entertaining read, but the rest of the book really fell flat to me.

[Priisus]

Sons of Horus wrote...

I have a query. Did Fiona cause the circle treaty with the wardens to end ? If so wouldn’t she be hunted down like Anders by the grey wardens ? Somehow I don't think that the first warden of Weisshaupt Fortress is going to leave even ex-grey wardens roaming about causing chaos that may hurt their cause.
The Anderfels may even go to war over this.

I thought Fiona was given leave by the Gray Wardens (a situation similar to King Alistair). Fiona's fate at the epilogue of The Calling is left ambiguous anyway. Besides she holds the position of the Grand Enchanter, and everybody know who she is. I don't think a well-known runaway Warden mage can hold such high postion without drawing attention from the Gray Wardens themselves. If so she is considered a circle mage now and her actions shouldn't have to be linked back to the Wardens.

Also, I don't think Anders was hunted down by the Wardens like he would be by the Templars. Anders told Hawke that initially he thought Stroud had come to the Free Marches to find/apprehend him. And then we met Stroud and he didn't even bat an eye at Anders lol. There's so much thing that we still don't know about how the Wardens operate, including on how they dealt with a recruit that ran away from the order.

So now here's my question to the discussion (got the book three days ago andjust  finished reading it ):

What's the real cause of Mage-Templar War?

Meredith? Anders? The Divine? Lambert? Fiona? Adrian? Rhys? The event involving Pharamond & Wynne?

Seems to me that what happened in Kirkwall is inevitable anyway without their bat crazy inhabitants.

Also the book mentioned that there are "fifteen first enchanters, short four who couldn't make it in time, plus the Grand Enchanter." Is it safe to assume that there are twenty Circle of Magi (minus Tevinter's) in Thedas then? And then the epilogue mentioned that there are only fifteen Knight-Commanders, what happened to the other five?

[Priisus]

Oh also, I'm confused about the timeline, correct me if I'm wrong. The main event of Asunder took place at 9:38 Dragon, and count a few months of the travelling here and there. The event of the Conclave, then the first enchanters arriving a month later at Andorral's Reach, and then over the next few months the other mages followed. So the declaration of separation took place around 9:39? And then Lambert gathered his Templars and decreed the Order's separation from the Chantry at 9:40 which should be around the time of Varric's interrogation?

Now I wonder if Cassandra's "gone rogue" from Lambert's Seekers, her mentioning that "not all desire war" (something that I think Lambert is intending to). Furthermore she is seen with Leliana, can we think that there are still Seekers that still continue to serve the Divine?

I'm definitely excited for what Dragon Age 3 will have in store. Warden & Hawke missing, Orlais in civil war, on what Fereldan is going to do (especially since their King decides to go to Antiva), the Qunari's future, the Tevinter and whether the Wardens are going to take a more active role in the politics of Thedas or heck... there are going to be even more Darkspawns... and lastly, dear Flemeth.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Priisus wrote...

What's the real cause of Mage-Templar War?

Meredith? Anders? The Divine? Lambert? Fiona? Adrian? Rhys? The event involving Pharamond & Wynne?

Hard to say, really. One could think of Anders' action and Meredith's reaction raising tensions between mages and templars in all the Circles throughout Thedas. One could look at Adrian's actions and point out that is what really angered Lambert, or look toward Fiona's motions during the conclave to separate the Circle from the Chantry, or go back a little bit and see how the Divine sanctioning a conclave actually led up to Fiona's actions. Or skip a bit further in time and look at Rhys representing the Aequitarians voting for war. Of course, if Wynne had never helped Pharamond, then the Divine couldn't even have made that decision.

In short, they all played a part - I suppose some hands were forced more than others. But it was a sequence of events, each one influencing the next in some way.

Also the book mentioned that there are "fifteen first enchanters, short four who couldn't make it in time, plus the Grand Enchanter." Is it safe to assume that there are twenty Circle of Magi (minus Tevinter's) in Thedas then? And then the epilogue mentioned that there are only fifteen Knight-Commanders, what happened to the other five?

Well, if you want to match up the First Enchanters with the Knight Commanders, then I'd say only 11 (15 - 4) First Enchanters made it to the conclave, not 15. And each First Enchanter actually heads the mages in one particular Circle. The Grand Enchanter might not, in her capacity, hold the duties of managing a particular Circle. So there should be 15 Circles in all, and as many FEs and KCs.

Oh also, I'm confused about the timeline, correct me if I'm wrong. The main event of Asunder took place at 9:38 Dragon, and count a few months of the travelling here and there. The event of the Conclave, then the first enchanters arriving a month later at Andorral's Reach, and then over the next few months the other mages followed. So the declaration of separation took place around 9:39? And then Lambert gathered his Templars and decreed the Order's separation from the Chantry at 9:40 which should be around the time of Varric's interrogation?

My estimate is that events at Asunder started a few months (2-3 months?) short of 9:40; it's somewhere at the end of 9:39. The traveling of Rhys & Co. was only for 2 weeks (not months), and the First Enchanters to arrive at the conclave took about 1 month, making the entire span somewhat around 6 weeks, give a week or so. And then the assembling of mages at Andoral's Reach might have happened some 1 to 2 months later (maybe more). Whether Lambert sent the letter of separation to the Divine immediately after the rebellion at White Spire or after the mages at Andoral's Reach declared war is unclear I think.

Or one could make a case for the whole thing happening during 9:40 itself. Who knows? But I doubt 9:38 - it just seems a bit further back. Unless the book mentioned it somewhere and I missed the reference, in which case do correct me.

EDIT: Formatting corrections.
EDIT: Corrected a typo.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 30 janvier 2012 - 04:05 .

[labargegrrrl]

Tommyspa wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

Fiona...Anders... possibly a Hawke sibling? "The involvement of the Grey Wardens makes perfect sense."

HA! how about that.

Not to mention the fact that Stroud and Nathaniel and some others (if you play Legacy) are all just so blaze about just bumping into Anders and then letting him meander away even though he's supposed to be some huge renegade!  And then the Warden goes AWOL at the end of DA2.  Not to mention the fact that Wynn, Lel and Shale got pulled into the whole mess.  Why are you the only one getting the joke here again?

[Tommyspa]

labargegrrrl wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

Fiona...Anders... possibly a Hawke sibling? "The involvement of the Grey Wardens makes perfect sense."

HA! how about that.

Not to mention the fact that Stroud and Nathaniel and some others (if you play Legacy) are all just so blaze about just bumping into Anders and then letting him meander away even though he's supposed to be some huge renegade!  And then the Warden goes AWOL at the end of DA2.  Not to mention the fact that Wynn, Lel and Shale got pulled into the whole mess.  Why are you the only one getting the joke here again?

Fits in nicely when Fernando Melo (I think it was him) said that the Grey Wardens are a pillar of what is happening in Dragon Age back around Legacy.

[omnitremere]

Just finished reading Asunder. I have to admit when I first heard about Orlais being the central location for DA3 I was disappointed. I thought out of all the places we hadn't gone(Par Vollen, Tevinter, Rivani) that Orlais sounded the most boring by far. But reading this book has completely changed my mind. Looking forward to seeing more work from you Mr. Gaider.

[MissOuJ]

Just finished reading Asunder last night, and I was really pleased with the book. There were some hickups, sure, but all in all, I enjoyed the story, characters, and locations immensely. I did find some of the relationships a bit lacking (the Evangeline-Rhys -romance and Wynne's relationship with... well, almost everyone), but then there was Cole who stole my heart and broke it into several tiny pieces. I would have liked to see a bit more character development for Evangeline, but it was nice to get a strong female character who wasn't defined by her relationship to the male protagonist.

The plot kept my interest reasonably well, although I wonder how those readers feel who didn't recruit Wynne at the Tower, since the book makes it practically canon she travelled with the Warden. Also, Shale (because I never got The Stone Prisoner DLC and I only knew her from let's plays, so it was a bit weird to have that canonized, but oh well). Also, the "uncle gambling away the family estate" - motif is getting repetitive.

The ending was awesome. It was dramatic, and engaging, and got me really exited for DA3. All in all, a rather enjoyable tie-in novel!

Disclamer: I might be a bit more forgiving than I would usually be, since before this book I read something horrendous... but anyway.

[Heimdall]

MissOuJ wrote...

Just finished reading Asunder last night, and I was really pleased with the book. There were some hickups, sure, but all in all, I enjoyed the story, characters, and locations immensely. I did find some of the relationships a bit lacking (the Evangeline-Rhys -romance and Wynne's relationship with... well, almost everyone), but then there was Cole who stole my heart and broke it into several tiny pieces. I would have liked to see a bit more character development for Evangeline, but it was nice to get a strong female character who wasn't defined by her relationship to the male protagonist.

The plot kept my interest reasonably well, although I wonder how those readers feel who didn't recruit Wynne at the Tower, since the book makes it practically canon she travelled with the Warden. Also, Shale (because I never got The Stone Prisoner DLC and I only knew her from let's plays, so it was a bit weird to have that canonized, but oh well). Also, the "uncle gambling away the family estate" - motif is getting repetitive.

The ending was awesome. It was dramatic, and engaging, and got me really exited for DA3. All in all, a rather enjoyable tie-in novel!

Disclamer: I might be a bit more forgiving than I would usually be, since before this book I read something horrendous... but anyway.

Gaider said something about establishing a several things as canon being sort of necesary for tie in works.

[MissOuJ]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Gaider said something about establishing a several things as canon being sort of necesary for tie in works.

Ah, I see. Was this mentioned previously in the thead? I understand completely that a certain canonisation is needed to maintain coheesion in the franchise, and it didn't really bother me. I was just wondering, since some people who killed Leliana in Origins were mighty cross when she came back in DA2, and I was wondering if we'd see more similar backlash here.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 06 février 2012 - 03:37 .

[dreman9999]

Tommyspa wrote...

How would you describe Rhys?

The relatable guy whoes the glue of the group.

[dreman9999]

Morroian wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

It seems to imply Lambert's death but leaves it open, maybe in case BW decide to use him in DA3?

Either way he can't be in charge of the Seekers any more because they wouldn't be doing what they are doing in the framing story for DA2 if he was in charge.

You make it sound like it has to be one group of seekers.

[dreman9999]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

If Gaider wanted to show that mages were capable of leading themselves, he shouldn't have showed that the most wise and knowledgable mage can succumb to demonic powers. But perhaps that wasn't his intent.

I firmly believe that Meredith and Alrik insane and horribly prejudice, however. I just can't see a viable future for mages if even the best can be corrupted so abruptly.

The point was never about the mages leading themselves. It's about compromised and the failer of it. There's a clear middle ground in this but there's too many people on both sides who want the extremes.

[dreman9999]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Templars must be educated very young, 12 to 13 years. They must be taught the art of the sword, the discipline, the rigor of Andrastian education. They must learn to counteract the magic and it takes years.

A quick and bland recruitment wouldn't change anything if we are talking about fighting magic on equal foots. Templars are also addicted to the lyrium. If their resources are cut, they won't be able to fight. And given the deplorable state in which is the chantry, I'm not sure that she is able to keep these resources safely lol.

Yes, but who will the people and noblemen trust more, at least initially? The mages would set the countryside on fire or the templars trying to stop them. Then, those, say, 1000 mages, are up against 2-3000 Templars and perhaps a levie of 10,000 footmen. One can afford to lose 500 regulars. One cannot afford to lose 500 mages in one battle. The mages will always, always lose a war of attrition simply because training a mage takes a lifetime of study and training, while holding a sword does not. It's the difference between a longbow and a crossbow. One is considerably more powerful, but the logistics of fielding soldiers who know how to use them also more complicated.

Also, finding ways to feed troops and keep supply lines open is not "traditional warfare." That's the basics of pretty much every war that has ever been fought or will ever be fought. If your troops are starving, you will lose.

I'm sorry, your forgetting there's awar in orles....It's not a quetion of who the norbles trust but who they need to win this war and servive it. A person ho can kill waves of people and heal people is more valuble that someone who can just counter magic in a war.

[ladyofpayne]

Greagoir is Rhys father?

[DrwEddy]

Well, looks like Thedas is going down to a s***hole.  It seems the world would soon be taken advantage by another force so dangerous than the bloody war... hint hint?

Modifié par DrwEddy, 11 février 2012 - 03:06 .

[Priisus]

ladyofpayne wrote...

Greagoir is Rhys father?

I choked on my coffee hearing this 

I thought he is an unknown templar?

[gaurdian9sunshine]

DrwEddy wrote...

Well, looks like Thedas is going down to a s***hole.  It seems the world would soon be taken advantage by another force so dangerous than the bloody war... hint hint?

'

I would like to see the qunari come and kick everyone's ass. That is something I would love to see.

[Firky]

Must not read thread. I still have a third to go. But this paragraph brought a tear to my eye. (Actually, a couple.)

*spoilers* (obviously)

Pharamond, on being Tranquil.

"Yet one cannot act other than the dream allows. It follows its course, and you follow it believing nothing is real. You will turn the corner and awaken, safe and sound. Yet you never do. Instead you are slowly smothered in a crystal-clear silence that has no meaning."

Also, I love the way Pharamond feels things with so much intensity again. Oh man. (But I'll come back to the trhead when I'm not afraid to read it.)

[HeroxMatt]

Pharamond "waking up" from his Tranquility is almost like Spock getting that rush of emotion in JJ Abrams' Star Trek. I wonder if Tranquils have their own Pon Farr, too...

[Firky]

Spock. I hadn't made that comparison. Oddly enough.

Finished. It's so late. Can anyone point me to somewhere in this thread where people are discussing Cole.

[Ealos]

Now that the Chantry isn't the Inquisition's boss any more, what power does the Divine actually have? Can she excommunicate, or equivalent? And if the Chantry were to outlaw the Templars for ripping up the Accord, what do people think would happen? Would commoners go with the voice of Andraste, or with the knights in shining armour? And would it affect the Templars themselves? A bit off topic, but was wondering if Asunder dealt with any of this. Still kinda surprised to learn that Lambert broke the Inquisition away, since he could probably have arranged for a more persuadable Divine to take the throne, he sounds ruthless enough for Justinia to have an "accident", and then have the backing of the Chantry anyway.

[Firky]

D'Oh. As usual, Firky is about a month late to the discussion and there's probably no-one around to discuss it with.

*major Cole spoilers*

I've been searching through the thread and I was convinced I knew what Cole was. But I found some speculation about him being possessed etc, not what I thought.

So I'll just go ahead and make myself look silly. If anyone is around, pick holes in my theory. (Seriously. I was simply convinced this was the case. And I was about to wax on about how clever it was that DG introduced this content so well. But perhaps I got the whole idea of the novel wrong. Well, amoung other thematic content, like "there is no one size fits all for mages" etc.)

Cole is a hedge mage. Right? (Pharamond suggested it.) Cole grew up without magical instruction. He had to hide from his father a lot. His magic thus manifested as a kind of hide and seek thing. People could see him only if he wanted them to. But they'd forget him because that's how he dealt with his father in his mind; I'm not important, I'm not here etc.

He likely had a spirit with him. I believe Rivaini hedge mages do that, right? (I can't recall where I got that from.) That's why Rhys (spirit medium) could consistently see him. (And Wynne.)

As to his murdering. I don't think he was driven to do that by a demon - or spirit. I think his odd circumstance, with both father and magical manifestation, made him crave acknowledgement. He was more of a classical murderer, cast in a horrible circumstance. Yes, there was a feeling of "dark magic" but why wouldn't there be? Was it really magic? Not sure.

(PS. Apologies if this was discussed in the thread already. I looked, but didn't find it.)

Edit: Oh. And, at the end. I thought Cole was speaking metaphorically - or possible as the spirit - like Justice did. When he was thrown in a cell might have been where the spirit joined him, but he was still Cole, for the most part. He had been changed in the cell, that's all.

Modifié par Firky, 12 février 2012 - 09:12 .