728 réponses à ce sujet

[DahliaLynn]

Edit: I posted my theories on Cole and what he may be, but I think I'll gather my thoughts together in a more organized fashion and repost 

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 12 février 2012 - 11:18 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Firky wrote...

*major Cole spoilers*

I've been searching through the thread and I was convinced I knew what Cole was. But I found some speculation about him being possessed etc, not what I thought.

We all have our doubts, I guess. But I'm going to defend the "Cole was possessed" hypothesis, and I think much of the story related to him played out as it did in Asunder because of this reason, and not simply because he was a murdering mage who also happened to be possessed.

So I'll just go ahead and make myself look silly. If anyone is around, pick holes in my theory. (Seriously. I was simply convinced this was the case. And I was about to wax on about how clever it was that DG introduced this content so well. But perhaps I got the whole idea of the novel wrong. Well, amoung other thematic content, like "there is no one size fits all for mages" etc.)

Cole is a hedge mage. Right? (Pharamond suggested it.) Cole grew up without magical instruction. He had to hide from his father a lot. His magic thus manifested as a kind of hide and seek thing. People could see him only if he wanted them to. But they'd forget him because that's how he dealt with his father in his mind; I'm not important, I'm not here etc.

He likely had a spirit with him. I believe Rivaini hedge mages do that, right? (I can't recall where I got that from.) That's why Rhys (spirit medium) could consistently see him. (And Wynne.)

As to his murdering. I don't think he was driven to do that by a demon - or spirit. I think his odd circumstance, with both father and magical manifestation, made him crave acknowledgement. He was more of a classical murderer, cast in a horrible circumstance. Yes, there was a feeling of "dark magic" but why wouldn't there be? Was it really magic? Not sure.

(PS. Apologies if this was discussed in the thread already. I looked, but didn't find it.)

Edit: Oh. And, at the end. I thought Cole was speaking metaphorically - or possible as the spirit - like Justice did. When he was thrown in a cell might have been where the spirit joined him, but he was still Cole, for the most part. He had been changed in the cell, that's all.

Here are my take on things. And, yeah, spoilers!

I think if one makes several distinctions in the character of Cole as the story progresses chronologically, then one can come to the conclusion that what we see in Cole is actually the progression in his state of being possessed. Indeed, I have wondered this at times: how does one lose one's self to a spirit/demon? How exactly does one become an abomination in the end? And what does it mean to become an abomination? I believe that Cole's story answers all of these questions, to a degree, and strictly in one aspect.

For most of the story, I saw Cole fighting the spirit within. He commits "killings" (one can look at them as sorts of euthanasia also, I suppose) to avoid losing his sense of reality, which holding on to his sense of self grants. (There is some metaphor for this within the story, something about him becoming the most "real" person in the world to the one he's about to kill, but I forget the details - it's been a while since I read the book.)

Yes, he came from a tragic background, but perhaps he did something with magic (maybe killed his father with it) that made the templars come for him. And, within his prison cell at the Spire, he was forgotten by the ineptitude of the templars. And, in that state, perhaps, he let the spirit (of forgetfulness? of oblivion? of vengeance? who knows?) into his mind. Isn't it true that certain spirits/demons are attracted to certain types of hosts - mages  who can offer something of worth to the spirit/demon? And that's how it all presumably started - that's how he became the Ghost of the Spire, and stopped being merely Cole. I'm quite sure he wasn't aware of his becoming or being possessed, till the very end. But he was very much alive all the time, I think, in that he felt hunger, etc.

And then he starts developing a fear. He starts becoming invivible to people around him, templars and mages alike, as the spirit takes hold. He's losing his sense of reality. And only certain people can see him - spirit mediums like Rhys and Wynne. And other mages, who, however briefly and for whatever reason, remember him - I mean there are stories of a Ghost of the Spire, are there not? And that's when he perhaps discovered that when mages are brought into the dungeons by the templars, he could sense that some of them would "see" him, some, who I think are consumed by some sort of guilt, like the girl who'd dome something bad to her family (if I remember that part of the story correctly). By killing such willing victims, I think he seemed to hold on to his sense of reality, and thus not losing himself to the spirit within him. These killings are something I have a hard time reconciling though, since they could have been entirely the work of the spirit, but, if that were the case, I find it hard to attribute in-story reasons to them. And certainly we know very little about the nature of the spirit itself - just the limited, first hand experiences of the characters within Asunder, especially Cole.

But then he starts putting more and more trust in his friend, Rhys. Rhys becomes his whole connection to his self - as long as Rhys acknowledges him, he's safe, he won't lose himself. That's why he doesn't kill that girl at Adamant Fortress, even if he wanted to, and that's also why he doesn't kill Pharamond - because he values Rhys' friendship and he knows Rhys won't approve.

And then, at the end, when he starts drawing the power from the spirit within, to hide himself (and Rhys), he slowly starts losing his grasp on his self; and as the spirit starts getting more and more of a hold within him, Cole gets pushed out more and more, or perhaps it is a fusion both at work, more rapidly and preceptibly at the end. And when the Lord Seeker uses the Litany and it works in breaking Cole's "spell," Rhys (acting within the limits of his own knowledge about Cole, and with the doubts already planted in his mind by the Lord Seeker) acknowledges in front of Cole that Cole is a demon, and Cole's final transformation occurs - there is Cole no more. When Cole comes back at the end, I think he says to the Lord Seeker that there "was" a Cole. We can now perhaps see the abomination at work, which is neither the spirit nor Cole, but a fusion of the two, more vengeful and powerful than both perhaps.

[Priisus]

Firky wrote...

Edit: Oh. And, at the end. I thought Cole was speaking metaphorically - or possible as the spirit - like Justice did. When he was thrown in a cell might have been where the spirit joined him, but he was still Cole, for the most part. He had been changed in the cell, that's all.

The book got released late December and unfortunately, I don't think many players are interested in tie-in novels so yes discussion has been pretty dead... that or all the buzz is around Mass Effect 3 atm  (Deception is getting a lot of attention lol) 

I greatly enjoy Asunder, I thought Cole will definitely garner a lot of discussion. What Cole is at the end leaves speculation maddening. I mean what the heck is he now? So his working involves a demon (proven due to connection to the Litany) but whether he still inhabits the body of the original Cole or merged to become a totally unknown type of abomination or whether he is a spirit that can finally manifest himself in the form of a real person in the real world (and obviously what's the link to the curious nature of magic he possessed - some here argued that his "magic" is some sort of mind control or like you said may manifest itself early in the real Cole somehow).

I am wondering why he suddenly "disappears" immediately after Lambert exposed his nature.

Also, abominations are curious, curious thing, there's so much about them that we don't know. Besides the ones we see immediately-turning-into-demon-shaped-abomination in DA2, we also see Uldred who seemed to maintain his human form for a while and retain his human's consciousness to a degree. The special type of abominations - Wynne and Anders where you can no longer know where the human or spirit ends. On a side note I was hella freaked out when Wynne's Spirit took over her during the battle in the Fade, I mean we do see her Spirit helping our Warden's party during the scene when she unlocked Vessel of the Spirit in DA;O but never did we see it taking over her completely like Justice often do with Anders. Also hers is supposed to be the Spirit of Faith and if it can go berserk like that (especially on a person like Wynne), everything about Anders and Justice don't seem that out of hand anymore.

"There WAS a Cole" - hmmmm.......

[Firky]

Yay! People are discussing it. (Thanks.)

@MichaelFinnigan That's rather a good point about him slowly becoming something else. With the hunger etc. I hadn't thought about that.

@Priius That disappearing thing was odd. Was it just in Rhys' eyes that he disappeared? (I think that bit was Rhys' POV.) But why would that be the case, especially if Cole was really more spirit/demon than man. I feel like I should understand this, but ... don't.

I still think that the invisibility etc was not caused by a spirit or possession, though. Surely it's too closely linked to him growing up hiding from his father. It has to be something he's doing himself - although he doesn't have much control over it, because he never got training in magic. The killing, I'm not sure.

The Litany of Adralla thing is supposed to be for disrupting mind control spells, right? (Like invisibility.) Does mind control always have to be related to blood magic? This is probably a long shot, but what if Cole had to sacrifice people in order to keep whatever accidental/magic manifestation thing he had going with the invisibility, because it required blood magic? He was driven to kill in order to maintain - whatever he was doing? Mind you, for that to be right, if he didn't kill surely he would have just faded back into view, not disappeared entirely? I don't know.

[Morroian]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

And then, at the end, when he starts drawing the power from the spirit within, to hide himself (and Rhys), he slowly starts losing his grasp on his self; and as the spirit starts getting more and more of a hold within him, Cole gets pushed out more and more, or perhaps it is a fusion both at work, more rapidly and preceptibly at the end. And when the Lord Seeker uses the Litany and it works in breaking Cole's "spell," Rhys (acting within the limits of his own knowledge about Cole, and with the doubts already planted in his mind by the Lord Seeker) acknowledges in front of Cole that Cole is a demon, and Cole's final transformation occurs - there is Cole no more. When Cole comes back at the end, I think he says to the Lord Seeker that there "was" a Cole. We can now perhaps see the abomination at work, which is neither the spirit nor Cole, but a fusion of the two, more vengeful and powerful than both perhaps.

Fantastic analysis, that all fits IMHO.

[Firky]

^ Aha. I thought it meant Cole literally disappeared when I read it. I just reread that bit and it says, "And just like that, Cole faded away." So what you mean is that this could be interpreted at the part which was Cole finally left. Mind you, he's not mentioned again in that chapter. If he was still standing there, wouldn't someone have tried to kill him or something?

Clearly, I'm still confused.

Is an abomination officially such only when there is a fusion of person and spirit/demon and the person isn't there? I think I thought it was any combination - like Justice and Anders, for example, hwere they fight for control, kinda.

[HeroxMatt]

I think it was a bit of both. "Faded away" to be the metaphor that Cole is gone, and the demon remains, and as well as the literal sense that he disappeared. Back into the Fade? 

Did you enjoy the book, Firky? I liked it, and it was fun to get some more insight into not only Tranquils, but also some of the locale around Val Royeaux, though I would have liked the novel be a bit longer.

Modifié par HeroxMatt, 14 février 2012 - 07:09 .

[Firky]

Loved it!

Beautifully structured, clever content, well written - with the exception of "finding purchase" being used so many times in battle. (Sorry, DG.) Extremely well done in terms of twists and foreshadowing; not knowing what was coming next, but after reading what was coming next, thinking, "Yes, that made total sense."

For me it really underlined that the true strength of Dragon Age is in its characters and how there is no one mage/templar/tranquil/abomination mold. Everyone is authentic. In my mind, that's why the lore and storytelling work so well. Oh, and the fact that the Chantry enforces the "one size fits all" thing in spite of this. Brilliant.

I'm not particularly interested in Val Royeaux, really, but the setting was fine, I think. And I *love* anything Tranquil. Just love it. I can't wait for more Tranquil stuff. Especially if things change after this book....

[MichaelFinnegan]

Firky wrote...

@Priius That disappearing thing was odd. Was it just in Rhys' eyes that he disappeared? (I think that bit was Rhys' POV.) But why would that be the case, especially if Cole was really more spirit/demon than man. I feel like I should understand this, but ... don't.

We are both in the same boat of not knowing things for sure.

I still think that the invisibility etc was not caused by a spirit or possession, though. Surely it's too closely linked to him growing up hiding from his father. It has to be something he's doing himself - although he doesn't have much control over it, because he never got training in magic. The killing, I'm not sure.

All right. Let me admit for a moment to both the possibilities: one, that Cole was using magic latent within himself; and, another, that the magic came from the spirit inhabiting his body. To my mind, the question simply is which one of these is more likely to be true.

If Cole had the magic all along, then why did he get caught by the templars, who later brought him to the Spire? And, if we admit for a moment that somehow he wasn't able to control it at that time, then why is it that he has been able to control it ever since, i.e. how has he managed not to get caught again? Was it simply luck, then?

The other possibility occurs more likely to me: he was brought to the Spire by the templars, who must have somehow been informed by someone about Cole being a mage, meaning Cole somehow displayed his "observable" magical talents out in the open so that others could notice; but when in the Spire's dungeons, forgotten by the templars, he somehow attracted a spirit which went on to possess him; and it is then that he acquired the ability to become invisible. I think the power coming from the spirit is more likely, given what I know.

About Cole's backstory: I think it's there to highlight the predicament that mages, in general, face. Surely, anyone could be unlucky enough to be born into an abusive family. But the situation is different for mages. They have the power to react, violently, if necessary. In the case of Cole, it is possible that he took the help of the spirit, in a moment of desperation, of weakness, unknowing that he'd let it into his mind, that he became possessed. I'm sure becoming possessed wasn't entirely his intention, but it happened nonetheless.

The Litany of Adralla thing is supposed to be for disrupting mind control spells, right? (Like invisibility.) Does mind control always have to be related to blood magic?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think we know for sure.

This is probably a long shot, but what if Cole had to sacrifice people in order to keep whatever accidental/magic manifestation thing he had going with the invisibility, because it required blood magic?

That thought crossed my mind as well. Honestly, I don't know. I think spilling blood for the purpose of remaining invisible wasn't Cole's objective; holding on to the notion that he was real was. In fact, it almost seemed as if he wanted to reach out to people, that he wanted acknowledgement - just that he was afraid of the templars and afraid of leaving the only place he knew as home.

And I know that the notion of blood magic actually comes from the Lord Seeker. In my personal opinion, no matter how capable he is (or was) in dealing with demonic threats, I think that man is severely lacking in knowledge, and prejudiced like crazy. What he suceeded in doing was putting doubts in Rhys' (and the reader's) mind. I'm not saying that he was necessarily wrong, but simply that he's not a reliable source of information - he's not open to knowing further, or to considering that some things are beyond his present understanding.

He was driven to kill in order to maintain - whatever he was doing? Mind you, for that to be right, if he didn't kill surely he would have just faded back into view, not disappeared entirely? I don't know.

I think that is entirely the point. Invisibility was his default state of existence, from when we get to know about him. Isn't it mentioned somewhere that he could make people see him if he wanted to? Meaning that he actually had to put effort into making people notice him?

^ Aha. I thought it meant Cole literally
disappeared when I read it. I just reread that bit and it says, "And
just like that, Cole faded away." So what you mean is that this could be
interpreted at the part which was Cole finally left. Mind you, he's not
mentioned again in that chapter. If he was still standing there,
wouldn't someone have tried to kill him or something?

I think his "fading away" was more for a dramatic effect than anything else; it set the stage for the exit of Cole and the entry of someone else. That Cole, as a mortal person, ceased to exist was, I think, entirely the point. Also I think if you admit to the possiblity that the invisibility trick actually comes from the demon, and not from Cole himself, I think the situation makes more sense. Or, you know, maybe it went back to the Fade, as the Lord Seeker suggested it do.

Clearly, I'm still confused.

I'm confused at some level as well - because none of what I said stands closer scrutiny.

Or, you know, let me make up a new explanation: maybe Cole as a person died initially at the Spire dungeon itself, when he was first captured by the templars. Maybe the spirit, drawn by Cole's plight, inhabited his body then and there, and as all spirits that cross over from The Fade, this one merely acquired some life experiences, memories, say, of Cole, and became confused about its own identity. Until the very end, that is, when it realizes that it isn't Cole, that it isn't real (in the sense of a real person). That is also plausible.

Is
an abomination officially such only when there is a fusion of person
and spirit/demon and the person isn't there? I think I thought it was
any combination - like Justice and Anders, for example, hwere they fight
for control, kinda.

An abomination is a term used, I think, for different things. It could be like Uldred, Connor, or Anders, who willingly agree to become possessed. Or it could be where a mage, during his harrowing, loses a battle of wills with the demon and becomes a hideous creature, with all traces of the mage (and humanity) totally gone - the demon fully manifested. The transformation is another question. Would it take long? Would it happen instantaneously? Who knows? Probably depends on how strong the mage's will is in not giving up. In Asunder, maybe Cole was battling the spirit within - I mean every time he tries to draw the power of the spirit for making people not react to his actions (like the way he silently kills the three templars at the end while rescuing Rhys), he is at the same time fighting not to fall into the void, the darkness that seems to smother him, push him further and further down (or out). I think that is an instance of maybe his trying to hold on to whatever of himself was left.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Morroian wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

And then, at the end, when he starts drawing the power from the spirit within, to hide himself (and Rhys), he slowly starts losing his grasp on his self; and as the spirit starts getting more and more of a hold within him, Cole gets pushed out more and more, or perhaps it is a fusion both at work, more rapidly and preceptibly at the end. And when the Lord Seeker uses the Litany and it works in breaking Cole's "spell," Rhys (acting within the limits of his own knowledge about Cole, and with the doubts already planted in his mind by the Lord Seeker) acknowledges in front of Cole that Cole is a demon, and Cole's final transformation occurs - there is Cole no more. When Cole comes back at the end, I think he says to the Lord Seeker that there "was" a Cole. We can now perhaps see the abomination at work, which is neither the spirit nor Cole, but a fusion of the two, more vengeful and powerful than both perhaps.

Fantastic analysis, that all fits IMHO.

Thanks.

[Firky]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If Cole had the magic all along, then why did he get caught by the templars, who later brought him to the Spire? And, if we admit for a moment that somehow he wasn't able to control it at that time, then why is it that he has been able to control it ever since, i.e. how has he managed not to get caught again? Was it simply luck, then?

The other possibility occurs more likely to me: he was brought to the Spire by the templars, who must have somehow been informed by someone about Cole being a mage, meaning Cole somehow displayed his "observable" magical talents out in the open so that others could notice; but when in the Spire's dungeons, forgotten by the templars, he somehow attracted a spirit which went on to possess him; and it is then that he acquired the ability to become invisible. I think the power coming from the spirit is more likely, given what I know.

I think I'd assumed that what we saw in his nightmare would have been catalyst for the Templars coming along. Like, someone would investigate what happened to the sister? Probably? 

Also, he doesn't really seem to have a lot of control over the invisibility thing - except that he seems to learn a bit more about it over the course of the book.

Also, didn't the templars in the tower "forget" him because he was already doing his "hiding" magical manifestation thing, without even being aware of it? Otherwise why would they forget him? They'd have to feed and guard him, under normal circumstances. Surely that's too much of a coincidence.

The spirit (at the end, if that was who was talking as "Cole") said that it came to him after the templars had forgotten, right?

Cole was scared so he was doing accidental magic, hiding and forget me magic.

It reminds me of The Woman who Walked into Doors, by Roddy Doyle. Great book, btw. Her husband gave her terrible beatings and she used to wish things with a real passion, like, "Please don't notice I didn't finish the vacuuming." "Please don't look at me." From memory. I read it a while ago.

Edit: Actually, maybe it was more like, "If I do things just so, he wont notice me." Like, if she laid out the towels right and turned on the outside light etc. The rituals involved with avoiding his wrath gained a real power in her mind. And the times he did beat her, she felt as she'd done something to attract his attention. Something like that.

Still, I think there's room for interpretation. To me, Cole's hiding magic is crystally clearly obvious as a reaction to his father and lack of magical training. But, other people could read other stuff into it, too. I think it was probably left a little bit open that way?

Modifié par Firky, 16 février 2012 - 07:43 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Firky wrote...

I think I'd assumed that what we saw in his nightmare would have been catalyst for the Templars coming along. Like, someone would investigate what happened to the sister? Probably? 

Also, he doesn't really seem to have a lot of control over the invisibility thing - except that he seems to learn a bit more about it over the course of the book.

Also, didn't the templars in the tower "forget" him because he was already doing his "hiding" magical manifestation thing, without even being aware of it? Otherwise why would they forget him? They'd have to feed and guard him, under normal circumstances. Surely that's too much of a coincidence.

The spirit (at the end, if that was who was talking as "Cole") said that it came to him after the templars had forgotten, right?

Cole was scared so he was doing accidental magic, hiding and forget me magic.


It reminds me of The Woman who Walked into Doors, by Roddy Doyle. Great book, btw. Her husband gave her terrible beatings and she used to wish things with a real passion, like, "Please don't notice I didn't finish the vacuuming." "Please don't look at me." From memory. I read it a while ago.

Edit: Actually, maybe it was more like, "If I do things just so, he wont notice me." Like, if she laid out the towels right and turned on the outside light etc. The rituals involved with avoiding his wrath gained a real power in her mind. And the times he did beat her, she felt as she'd done something to attract his attention. Something like that.

All very good points, I think. And, sure, one can look at it as when in the closet, hiding with his sister, he may already have been using his invisibility "spell," even before he made contact with the spirit. That would be speculation, but nonetheless very much plausible. It still leaves the question open about how the templars came to be involved. I think unless Cole confessed or surrendered to the templars (maybe out of guilt?), it seems unlikely that anyone else might have thought about it as magic. If others simply viewed it as murder, then why did he end up in the dungeons of the Spire, and not in some normal prison cell?

The way the story is presented, it looks to me as if when Cole starts drawing more and more of that power of his, the more and more he seems to lose himself to the spirit within; it's almost as if he has to literally wrest back control over his own mind. Now why would that be case? It's almost as if he is digging deeper to gain that "level up" for the spell, so that not only his existence, but also his actions aren't noticed by the templars. By doing that I think he was letting the spirit have more and more of a territory within his own mind (something in the story about how he feels the darkness within every fiber of his being, when he especially exerts himself at the end). At least that's how I see it.

And, well, you could think of the templars "forgetting" about Cole because of his innate ability to do the invisibility magic. But I didn't interpret it that way. I saw it as an accusation from the spirit that the templars abandoned Cole within the cell - as in they were careless, they didn't care. And when the templars realized what had happened (which makes me wonder if Cole did actually die in that cell, and the spirit, while inhabiting his body simply became confused with all of the Cole's stray memories), they tried to dispose off the evidence. I read it as the spirit accusing the Lord Seeker that he had known about it all along, but still withheld that information from both Cole and Rhys. It was I think trying to take revenge on the Lord Seeker.

And, about that other book you mentioned, I've not read it, but it seems interesting. Might alter my perspective if I read it.

Still, I think there's room for interpretation. To me, Cole's hiding magic is crystally clearly obvious as a reaction to his father and lack of magical training. But, other people could read other stuff into it, too. I think it was probably left a little bit open that way?

Yes, leaving things open to interpretation is what the authors are aiming for, rather purposefully I think. Perhaps in this case they want us to speculate more on what Cole really was, ad infinitum, i.e. till we get hold of DA3, when we can start speculating on other things.

[Achkas]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Or, you know, let me make up a new explanation: maybe Cole as a person died initially at the Spire dungeon itself, when he was first captured by the templars. Maybe the spirit, drawn by Cole's plight, inhabited his body then and there, and as all spirits that cross over from The Fade, this one merely acquired some life experiences, memories, say, of Cole, and became confused about its own identity. Until the very end, that is, when it realizes that it isn't Cole, that it isn't real (in the sense of a real person). That is also plausible.

To be honest, this is the only interpretation that makes sense. Everything else seems to be misunderstanding the book entirely. So, well done you.

[Firky]

^ Oh. I loved that Abomination story for the writing challenge. It was my favourite. Gorgeously written. (I read it in the thread ages ago.)

(Also, "this is the only interpretation that makes sense" reminds me of many, many arguments myself and my husband have had at art galleries. )

What premise is there for the spirit possessing a dead Cole, though? (I'm not arguing. I just don't get it.) Like, demons do possess corpses. (The wiki says it makes them insane - and stuff like arcane horrors etc.) I don't know much about spirits, though. If Wynne was dying and one saved her though ....

I suppose Justice possessed Kristoff. Who was a corpse. Like that? (Justice knew who he was, and accessed memories, but there is no one size fits all in DA, of course.)

[JasonPogo]

I'll just throw my take on Cole here. The Cole we see throughout the book is a spirit and not Cole himself. As the Lord Seeker points out spirits that get trapped in the real world become confused and forget who they are or why they are there. At the very end of the book the "Cole" that comes to the Lord Seeker says that there was a Cole that the Templars left him in a cell and forgot him. He cried out and the only one that came to him was this 'spirit" but he was not able to help him. Then when the Templars found the boy in the cell dead because they forgot him there they erased all information about the boy to hide the crime of leaving him to die. However the spirit that came to help him was now stuck in the real world and began to forget who or why it was there. All it could remember was the poor boys own memories and the feeling of being forgotten and alone.

So the Cole that Rhys knew was always the spirit confused and thinking it was Cole himself. Then at the end of the book when the Lord Seeker showed the spirit that it was not Cole it left only to be reminded of what it truly was. Where once it had been a spirit of compassion come to help this child it is now a spirit of Vengeance come to right the wrongs that were done to this child. Much the same as how Justice was turned to Vengeance by Anders this spirit is now changed by the fact that it was not able to save the real Cole.

Thats how I saw it anyway.

Modifié par JasonPogo, 17 février 2012 - 10:47 .

[Firky]

^ Explained like that, that makes sense to me; if it were just a spirit all along.

I still think the manifestation of the "hiding magic" (invisibility/forgetting) must be part of it, because it's too coincidental a theme. But, with that explanation, maybe the spirit just was ... kinda invisible.

(PS. But if it were just a spirit all along, that raises other possible conflicts .... ?)

Modifié par Firky, 17 février 2012 - 10:42 .

[Maria13]

OK, I'm drunk... Cole is the Lord Seeker's son... His real son. The Lord Seeker was the abusive father who could not admit his son was a mage. The Lord Seeker actually has an inclination to magic himself but managed to supress it. After Cole accidentally killed his sis, the LS (well, he wasn't yet the LS but he had ambitions of high office) has him taken away by the Templars, he is left to die on purpose... From then on it's as Jason says above... Except when the spirit becomes aware of who he is or was... He takes ultimate revenge on the real culprit...

Cole and Rhys gel because they were in a similar situation. Rhys' father was a Templar, he doesn't know who his mother is and when Wynne comes to claim him, it's too little a little too late... Although Rhys actually survived and to some extent prospered as a mage so he does not have Cole's bitterness.

Modifié par Maria13, 17 février 2012 - 11:15 .

[Achkas]

Firky wrote...

^ Oh. I loved that Abomination story for the writing challenge. It was my favourite. Gorgeously written. (I read it in the thread ages ago.)

Thank you! It was fun to write, I got a fair number of views but not many shared whether they liked it or not, so I'd been wondering.

One of the most interesting things about Cole to me is the moment the darkspawn sees him, and both of them hear a 'song'. Is Cole hearing an Old God's call? If so, does that make Cole something darkspawn related, or am I misreading it?

I really hope Cole appears, possibly as a companion, in DA3. Easily one of the most interesting concepts in the DA universe for a long time.

And re: the poster that just gave another interpretation of Cole as being a spirit who forgot who he was, that was my reading too.

[Firky]

You're welcome. Great story.

@Maria That's brilliant. Also, really?

[Inktrap]

I really like the confused spirit theory. I for one, do believe Cole - or whoever thinks to be him - fades in and out of reality depending on being believed in or not. When he shows up to kills Lambert - heck, the last sentence of the book, it better be important - he is trying to make sure Lambert looks into his eyes. Being recognized is pivoting for him - but as a spirit/demon/creature from the fade, not as Cole. The moment he kills seems to be a relief for the creature, not whatever of human is left (because at that point where he shows up to kill Lambert, there's none). I just don't see why he'd keep Cole's form after figuring out he… wasn't Cole. My subsequent thought was that he wasn't trying to kill Lambert, but possess him.

I confess my first idea was it being a demon of vainglory/vanity. It only sought very unhealthy ways of being noticed - not only through the killing, but also the attachment to Rhys that was completely stalkerish/obsessive and only seemed to replace the killings. The spirit was also hurt whenever it had to force himself not to be seen, and felt rather indignated that Cole was forgotten, although that could've been just a spirit being nice! But those creatures from the fade are indeed attracted to kindred souls, so… A spirit/demon that seeks to be recognized finds a forgotten boy who's spent his entire life in the hide but, at that single moment in his life, nothing matters more than being found. The only time Cole needs someone remembers him, no one does, and that makes the spirit completely nuts.

Ugh, I have so many other questions about him. Cole appears as a young man, but whatever happened with his sister and his father happened when he was a kid. Still, it's a central memory, instead of the event that lead to his capture by the templars. So what happened when he became older, and how is it connected? There's also his skill as a, well, rogue in the fade. It could be because he believes himself to be good at it, since his only possession seems to be a dagger, but he also fought skillfully against Lambert with the blasted thing. Call it fourth-wall breakage, but since we aren't capable of making a dagger wielding mage yet, and since family heirlooms are usually very indicative of the character's class… My vote is that the whole invisibility business is the spirit's, not his. Mere suspicion seems enough for a templar's arrest, and it could be a reocurrance of the plot point that fade spirits can be drawn towards non-mages.

Modifié par Inktrap, 18 février 2012 - 05:01 .

[Maria13]

Lambert didn't quite have the guts to order Cole be killed (perhaps he wanted some deniability vis-a-vis his wife, Cole's mother?) but he does order that he should be dumped in the deepest cell and forgotten...

In the end the spirit recalls what prompted his entry into the world and with that renewed consciousness consummates Cole's revenge as the first act of his awareness. "I'm not helpless any more."

[Blacklash93]

It's been a while since I've read the book, but what about the lyrium trade? I thought the Chantry controlled it so wouldn't it be kind of dumb for the Templars to split from them?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Blacklash93 wrote...

It's been a while since I've read the book, but what about the lyrium trade? I thought the Chantry controlled it so wouldn't it be kind of dumb for the Templars to split from them?

This goes both ways. The Chantry can't exactly enforce their monopoly on the trade if their army just mutinied.

[CrimsonZephyr]

simfamSP wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

It's been a while since I've read the book, but what about the lyrium trade? I thought the Chantry controlled it so wouldn't it be kind of dumb for the Templars to split from them?

There is always Lyrium Smugglers. I don't think Evangeline could have lasted long without illegal supply of Lyrium.

I actually think lyrium prices, in terms of sheer supply and demand, will actually go down. The Chantry was the only party that actually demanded that the Dwarves sell it exclusively to them, a demand they can no longer back with force of arms. Consequently, the price of lyrium in general is exceedingly high because of the reduced supply after the Chantry's had its fill. With the Chantry effectively toothless, all of that lyrium is on the market, which would drive prices down unless the Dwarves restricted how much they sold, and it's likely Orzammar, Kal-Sharok, and other reconquered thaigs (if Bhelen becomes king) would compete for business, further driving down prices.