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[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The fact that the Warden leaves behind most of the companions to sit in camp because they've got an arbitrary limit on party size isn't something that can sensibly be translated to a story. So it makes sense to assume that the Warden generally took everyone with them

Given that The Warden can lie to Leliana about what happened to the Urn of Sacred Ashes, maybe The Warden leaves behind a small contingent of people for a reason (perhaps in case things go wrong).

I tend to think that -- for the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest -- the 3 people he brings with him are the immediate vanguard, while everyone else is behind the Warden making sure stragglers don't catch them by surprise.

And unless the game tells you there's an actual limit on who you can take -- Archdemon, Amaranthine, etc. -- I believe the same thing Wulfram said. The most logical thing to assume is in fact that the Warden takes everyone with him on his quests -- though they may be behind him at different lengths. Could be right behind him, maybe 30 feet behind him. -- throughout Ferelden.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 décembre 2011 - 08:51 .

[Ulicus]

Sure.

And, even when that's not the case, I assume they're doing something important. There's no reason to think they're sitting back at the camp all the time. I only ever see them at the camp when my character's there, too, after all. (Hell, I justify the "save everyone" ending of the Redcliffe quest -- and the lack of any negative consequences -- by assuming that I've left most of my party at Redcliffe castle to contain the situation)

Though none of that helps any of my games, as I've never recruited Shale prior to the Broken Circle quest, nor ever taken her with me to face the Archdemon.

But, hey, gives me incentive for another playthrough! Which is never a bad thing. While my "main" game doesn't match with the DA EU at all -- there ain't no Prince/King-Consort Cousland in comic land! -- I'm still interested in making an attempt at a game that perfectly aligns with the non-game media.

I'll probably wait until after the comic and anime, though.

Oh, that reminds me, I think there was a reference to the anime in this novel (mention of a dragon attack on Val Royeuax), which was a nice touch. And, while I thought some of the DA:O mentions were unnecessarily specific, it didn't stop the majority of them being delightful.

Hero of Ferelden gets talked up appropriately.

[LobselVith8]

jlb524 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke was directly involved in a schism between mages and templars that the Chantry believes played a part in the cold war between templars and mages, irrespective of what actually happened in Asunder, especially since Cassandra addresses rumors that Hawke had spread subversion against the Chantry. The Warden was a Grey Warden who did precisely what a Grey Warden is supposed to do - stop the Blight. Hawke is tied to the conflict between mages and templars, while The Warden isn't unless the protagonist was a mage and specifically asked the ruler to emancipate his people from the Chantry.

The Warden is still respected by many people.  Having her/him on your side would 'look good' if nothing else.  Plus, the Warden possibly made some powerful friends....that's if Cassandra was looking for the Warden, which I don't believe is the case. 

I don't agree. Honestly, it seems shoe-horned in, IMHO of course. What difference will that make to the rebel templars or the rebel mages? I can see why Cassandra would seek out a mage Warden who might have a reputation among the Circles of Magi if he (or she) asked for his (or her) people in Ferelden to be given their independence and freedom, but otherwise I don't see why Cassandra would pursue this. Having a reputation in the nation of Ferelden for stopping the Archdemon or making powerful friends among the Banns of the arling or the dwarven Houses in Orzammar isn't going to factor into convincing either the rebel templars or the rebel mages to back down.

[TEWR]

Well, at the very least the RoA might have something to do with it. The Warden will have possibly saved the mages of the Tower when an RoA would've been more justified in use.

And if the Dwarven Nobles could've taken the throne, that would probably have been a key factor in why, but alas there's only the RoA.

[Augustei]

The Wardens actions in Ferelden's circle would have earned him the gratitude of Cullen for saving him and fixing the mess.. whether or not he originally disagrees with the wardens decision due to what action he takes I'm sure he would probably have come around, seeing as how his character does seem to have evolved by the end of DA2.. So he has influence among the Kirkwall circle as well due to Cullen becoming its Knight-Commander after Meredith.

and the Nation of Antiva if he spared Zevran who becomes head of the crows who seem to hold the most influence there

and the Nation of the Anderfels since well... The Wardens control it

and with Anders/Justice who could potentially be a high authority among the mages if spared in DA2

although dispite this im pretty convinced the wardens mention was dropped in there as a fan service.. unless they were referring to another warden... like Anders I guess

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 20 décembre 2011 - 03:48 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, at the very least the RoA might have something to do with it. The Warden will have possibly saved the mages of the Tower when an RoA would've been more justified in use.

I don't dispute that the Right of Annulment in Ferelden was more justified than the asinine storyline in Kirkwall, but I don't personally see why Cassandra would seek out a Grey Warden who has no ties to the mage community. It seems like it was shoe-horned in to mention "The Warden" and serve no real purpose otherwise. A mage Warden can serve as a hero among the multitude of mages across Thedas, as the Hero of Ferelden who stopped the Blight and (may have) conscripted Circle mage and apostate mage to his aid.

The mage protagonist can serve as a hero to the mages across Thedas, as a powerful mage who gains political and military power in a realm where mages are expressly forbidden from holding such power by becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine and Warden-Commander, and can ask the ruler of the nation to emancipate his people in front of a public audience as his royal boon instead of asking for a title and power. Clearly, mages across Thedas will pay attention to such actions. In contrast, the Human Noble, the Dalish, the City Elf, and the Dwarven Noble wouldn't command the same attention because they aren't tied to the mage audience in the same way.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And if the Dwarven Nobles could've taken the throne, that would probably have been a key factor in why, but alas there's only the RoA.

The Chantry already controls the lyrium trade on the surface through their dealing with Orzammar, and the mages and templars rebelled from the Chantry regardless of this fact, so I don't see why the Dwarven Noble would factor into this, either.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry already controls the lyrium trade on the surface through
their dealing with Orzammar, and the mages and templars rebelled from
the Chantry regardless of this fact, so I don't see why the Dwarven
Noble would factor into this, either.

I think the process is that Orzammar sells the lyrium to the Dwarvern Merchants Guild, and the Dwarvern Merchants guild sells it to The Chantry. At least thats what I got from Varric.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I don't dispute that the Right of Annulment in Ferelden was more justified than the asinine storyline in Kirkwall, but I don't personally see why Cassandra would seek out a Grey Warden who has no ties to the mage community. It seems like it was shoe-horned in to mention "The Warden" and serve no real purpose otherwise. A mage Warden can serve as a hero among the multitude of mages across Thedas, as the Hero of Ferelden who stopped the Blight and (may have) conscripted Circle mage and apostate mage to his aid.

The mage protagonist can serve as a hero to the mages across Thedas, as a powerful mage who gains political and military power in a realm where mages are expressly forbidden from holding such power by becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine and Warden-Commander, and can ask the ruler of the nation to emancipate his people in front of a public audience as his royal boon instead of asking for a title and power. Clearly, mages across Thedas will pay attention to such actions. In contrast, the Human Noble, the Dalish, the City Elf, and the Dwarven Noble wouldn't command the same attention because they aren't tied to the mage audience in the same way.

There's also the Mages' Collective to consider, assuming that has any bearing on future games. Doubtful though.

Think about it this way: Cassandra is looking for the Warden because he may be able to help -- or because he's a military genius -- in the Mage-Templar War. She doesn't however say whose side the Warden is on. So she could be looking for him because he may have some clout with the Templars and not the Mages.

If the Warden saved the Mages, I guess he/she may have some clout with both groups. If he killed them all, then he would have some with the Templars.

While the Mage Warden certainly has the most influence with the Mages, that doesn't mean the others wouldn't have any at all.
 

The Chantry already controls the lyrium trade on the surface through their dealing with Orzammar, and the mages and templars rebelled from the Chantry regardless of this fact, so I don't see why the Dwarven Noble would factor into this, either.

Assuming the devs keep the Dagna thing true, that would've had some influence with the Mages, especially if the Dwarven Noble could've become king. Or if a Chantry was installed -- blegh -- then there may be some influence with the Templars, and they're comprised of fanatical zealots mostly.

They haven't contradicted either yet, so it's within the realm of possibility that it will have some bearing in the future. IIRC, it's nonexistent in the epilogue slides with a Mage Warden boon. But, if you think about it, that makes some sense.

If you were a mage, would you rather live under the open sun or underground?

[DreGregoire]

I finished the book just over a half hour ago and it is definately a-lot of information to take in. What I enjoyed the most is that although the warden and the champion events were mentioned yet there was no name giving or gender so it made me feel as if my warden and/or champion could easily have fit into the tale. Kudos for that! Carefully avoiding specifics must have been difficult. I haven't had much time to think about all the specifics but another thing I loved is how the further breakdown of the mage system was shown. There is no question that the events in Ferelden and then in Kirkwall were paramount in the breakdown, but the events of Asunder trashed it beyond what can easily be repaired. The Seeker that comes to Kirkwall (if I have my timing correct) a year after the events of Asunder, or shortly after, who is seeking aid from people who have/had significant impact in the world makes much more sense to me now. Go ahead and call me on the timing but I'm pretty sure in the book it mentions the events happening two one years ago, which would work out to be the ninth year since Hawke arrived in Kirkwall and Cassandra shows up in the tenth year. . I'm sure I have much more to say but that is all for now. LOL!

Edit: Correction: one year ago the mages rebelled in Kirkwall. Speed reading through the novel a secondtime. LOL!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 décembre 2011 - 05:08 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There's also the Mages' Collective to consider, assuming that has any bearing on future games. Doubtful though.

Think about it this way: Cassandra is looking for the Warden because he may be able to help -- or because he's a military genius -- in the Mage-Templar War. She doesn't however say whose side the Warden is on. So she could be looking for him because he may have some clout with the Templars and not the Mages.

What clout? The Warden isn't a proper templar, and Knight-Commander Greagoir is one man who may have retired by the time the mages and templars rebelled ten years after the Fifth Blight.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If the Warden saved the Mages, I guess he/she may have some clout with both groups. If he killed them all, then he would have some with the Templars.

Among thirteen other Circles of Magi and Order of Templars across the continent? I doubt it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

While the Mage Warden certainly has the most influence with the Mages, that doesn't mean the others wouldn't have any at all.

I don't see what influence The Warden would have, otherwise. When The Warden from the Circle can ask for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence and serve as a mage with unprecedented political and military power, I think it makes sense. The mage protagonist is directly tied to the mage community in Ferelden, and can become a hero among mages across the continent. The same isn't true for the Human Noble, Dwarven, Dalish, and City Elf protagonists, so I don't see how The Warden from those backgrounds would talk down either side.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Assuming the devs keep the Dagna thing true, that would've had some influence with the Mages, especially if the Dwarven Noble could've become king. Or if a Chantry was installed -- blegh -- then there may be some influence with the Templars, and they're comprised of fanatical zealots mostly.

An independent Circle of Orzammar that is already free of Chantry and templar control? Or an Orzammar where the Chantry has a small following with no apparent political power? I really don't see it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They haven't contradicted either yet, so it's within the realm of possibility that it will have some bearing in the future. IIRC, it's nonexistent in the epilogue slides with a Mage Warden boon. But, if you think about it, that makes some sense.

If you were a mage, would you rather live under the open sun or underground?

Since Gaider said the boon doesn't happen, it calls into question why there wouldn't be an independent Circle of Orzammar.

[Great_Horn]

I´m not quite sure if the us version of the novel is different from the European; hence I can’t remember reading any references to the Champion of Kirkwall. As for the timeline, the separation from the Chantry is signed by the Lord Seeker in Dragon 9:40.

[DreGregoire]

Great_Horn wrote...

I´m not quite sure if the us version of the novel is different from the European; hence I can’t remember reading any references to the Champion of Kirkwall. As for the timeline, the separation from the Chantry is signed by the Lord Seeker in Dragon 9:40.

Well that was my point really and you are right that term "champion of Kirkwall"  is not used but Anders is referenced as are the events. The Hero of Ferelden is mentioned. 9:40 is the right year for the Seeker to show in Kirkwall

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...


What clout? The Warden isn't a proper templar, and Knight-Commander Greagoir is one man who may have retired by the time the mages and templars rebelled ten years after the Fifth Blight.

The Warden would've made the difficult choice of killing both innocents, the guilty, and demons and taken matters into his own hands when Gregoir's forces were barely able to keep the lobby room safe.

The Templars may approve of that, especially when it was a decision that was made during the Blight, which made the matters even worse.

The Blight changes everything.

Now, that's obviously not the intended meaning of that phrase, but it could hold true to this. The Blight coupled with an Abomination outbreak is bad news. That the Warden solved the Abomination outbreak during the Blight with only a small contingent of people may have impressed the Templar Order.

Among thirteen other Circles of Magi and Order of Templars across the continent? I doubt it.

Word of mouth tends to spread like wildfire. Plus the Circles have access to sending stones where they can tell the other Circles about vital information, albeit they're used rarely I believe.

"Dude, did you hear how the Warden saved the mages in Ferelden during the Blight?!"

As well as Wynne going to Cumberland for a meeting of the College of Magi and possibly talking about it to important figures from all 13 Circles.

I don't see what influence The Warden would have, otherwise. When The Warden from the Circle can ask for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence and serve as a mage with unprecedented political and military power, I think it makes sense. The mage protagonist is directly tied to the mage community in Ferelden, and can become a hero among mages across the continent. The same isn't true for the Human Noble, Dwarven, Dalish, and City Elf protagonists, so I don't see how The Warden from those backgrounds would talk down either side.

See above. Word of mouth and a possible thing from Wynne, if the mages were saved.

[Great_Horn]

DreGregoire wrote...

Well that was my point really and you are right that term "champion of Kirkwall"  is not used but Anders is referenced as are the events. The Hero of Ferelden is mentioned. 9:40 is the right year for the Seeker to show in Kirkwall

Well, if you read my post four days ago you will read exactly this.

Modifié par Great_Horn, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[DreGregoire]

Great_Horn wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Well that was my point really and you are right that term "champion of Kirkwall"  is not used but Anders is referenced as are the events. The Hero of Ferelden is mentioned. 9:40 is the right year for the Seeker to show in Kirkwall

Well, if you read my post four days ago you will read exactly this.

That's cool.
I; however, am just sharing my experience of the book that I finished today. I was not originally responding to anybody in particular.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Warden would've made the difficult choice of killing both innocents, the guilty, and demons and taken matters into his own hands when Gregoir's forces were barely able to keep the lobby room safe.

The Templars may approve of that, especially when it was a decision that was made during the Blight, which made the matters even worse.

The Blight changes everything.

Now, that's obviously not the intended meaning of that phrase, but it could hold true to this. The Blight coupled with an Abomination outbreak is bad news. That the Warden solved the Abomination outbreak during the Blight with only a small contingent of people may have impressed the Templar Order.

Which doesn't really mean much roughly ten years later, when the Order of Templars and the Circles of Magi have respectively rebelled from the Chantry of Andraste. It's no different than the Dalish clans basking in glory for a time after aiding the human armies against the Archdemon, where human settlements welcome them with open arms, only for their actions to be forgotten after a while, with Keeper Lanaya being the one keeping the peace between the humans and the Dalish clans.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Word of mouth tends to spread like wildfire. Plus the Circles have access to sending stones where they can tell the other Circles about vital information, albeit they're used rarely I believe.

"Dude, did you hear how the Warden saved the mages in Ferelden during the Blight?!"

As well as Wynne going to Cumberland for a meeting of the College of Magi and possibly talking about it to important figures from all 13 Circles.

I'm certain people also talked about how the Dalish warriors and the Circle mages saved people in Denerim during the Fifth Blight. That doesn't mean much ten years after the fact. In fact, even the Dalish Warden rescuing Ferelden from the Blight and stopping the darkspawn incursion of the City of Amaranthine doesn't seem to halt human hatred of the Dalish, since King Alistair implies that the settlement in the Hinterlands was massacred by humans. Why would the templars or the mages stop the war for The Warden?

Again, I don't see The Warden having much, if any, influence over the mages or the templars unless he (or she) is actually a mage who did something to stand out among the mages across Thedas. A mage who asks for his people to be given their freedom after a millennia of servitude to the Chantry and the Order of Templars, instead of asking for wealth or a title, and serving as a powerful figure with both political and military power despite such being illegal for any standard mage, would accomplish that.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

See above. Word of mouth and a possible thing from Wynne, if the mages were saved.

I don't think it would make much of a difference, honestly.

[Mayorin]

DreGregoire, does Wynne tell something about Rhys' father? What's Evangeline like? ^^

[DreGregoire]

Mayorin wrote...

DreGregoire, does Wynne tell something about Rhys' father? What's Evangeline like? ^^

PM coming And I'm happy you asked because I'm bubbling over with excitement about both questions. LOL!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 décembre 2011 - 05:23 .

[Great_Horn]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Again, I don't see The Warden having much, if any, influence over the mages or the templars unless he (or she) is actually a mage who did something to stand out among the mages across Thedas. A mage who asks for his people to be given their freedom after a millennia of servitude to the Chantry and the Order of Templars, instead of asking for wealth or a title, and serving as a powerful figure with both political and military power despite such being illegal for any standard mage, would accomplish that.

I share your opinion.

Even if the Warden was a mage the boon (freeing the mages in Ferelden) was only granted for defeating the Blight, not for being a mage. However, as I said before the Warden is in first place a Grey Warden he/she can’t act alone and only in respect for what the order stands for. The ancient treaties ensure the Grey Wardens help in case of a Blight, only if they remain neutral and do not interfere in politics or side with any major political power.

Modifié par Great_Horn, 20 décembre 2011 - 05:42 .

[DreGregoire]

Ah, but there is no current blight. So what's to say, the warden, who disappeared is still a "loyal" grey warden. That aside somebody who managed to accomplish what the warden did, mage or no, would be a powerful figure to many. When building a campaign it is essential to have a mouthpiece or a backer who is seen as successful and/or powerful. How does the warden who defeated the archdemon not fit that criteria? Let us say you warden isn't a mage or a templar wouldn't the people seeking aid (Cassandra and Leliana) be seen as successful if they were able to get a person that didn't hold ties to either group to side with their view or to champion their cause. Hawke may have been in Kirkwall when things went down and that proximity makes him/her another possible force to be reckoned with. Heh, sorry if I took off off-topic. This isn't in the book.

Edit: I still think Flemeth has a collection of hero statues that look too much like our pc's to not be them frozen until she needs them again. LOL!

Edit edit: I'm not sure if people are taking into the account the events of Awakening but the Commander of the Grey of Ferelden is actually considered a noble and is treated as such. I think that makes him/her a bit more than just any grey warden.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 décembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Melca36]

I hope people remember that the current book is not going to be what the game is but rather provide the foundation for the next game. I wouldn't expect to see everything from the book incorporated in the game.

[Great_Horn]

DreGregoire wrote...

Ah, but there is no current blight. So what's to say, the warden, who disappeared is still a "loyal" grey warden. That aside somebody who managed to accomplish what the warden did, mage or no, would be a powerful figure to many. When building a campaign it is essential to have a mouthpiece or a backer who is seen as successful and/or powerful. How does the warden who defeated the archdemon not fit that criteria? Let us say you warden isn't a mage or a templar wouldn't the people seeking aid (Cassandra and Leliana) be seen as successful if they were able to get a person that didn't hold ties to either group to side with their view or to champion their cause. Hawke may have been in Kirkwall when things went down and that proximity makes him/her another possible force to be reckoned with. Heh, sorry if I took off off-topic. This isn't in the book.

Edit: I still think Flemeth has a collection of hero statues that look too much like our pc's to not be them frozen until she needs them again. LOL!

Edit edit: I'm not sure if people are taking into the account the events of Awakening but the Commander of the Grey of Ferelden is actually considered a noble and is treated as such. I think that makes him/her a bit more than just any grey warden.

Well, it matters in the long run. And don’t forget it was king Maric who allows the Grey Wardens to
return to Ferelden after two centuries of exile. To me it’s exactly why the order is called the Grey Wardens.  It’s
easy to support one side over the other, hence with huge consequences.

Modifié par Great_Horn, 20 décembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Great_Horn]

Melca36 wrote...

I hope people remember that the current book is not going to be what the game is but rather provide the foundation for the next game. I wouldn't expect to see everything from the book incorporated in the game.

I wouldn’t mind if the whole Mages vers. Templar plot was already over. It´s not that kind of setting I wished for DA:3.

Modifié par Great_Horn, 20 décembre 2011 - 06:37 .

[Brockololly]

DreGregoire wrote...
Well that was my point really and you are right that term "champion of Kirkwall"  is not used but Anders is referenced as are the events. The Hero of Ferelden is mentioned. 9:40 is the right year for the Seeker to show in Kirkwall

Is there any kind of timeline in the book, like at the end in an appendix? That would be swell.

Melca36 wrote...

I hope people remember that the current  book is not going to be what the game is but rather provide the  foundation for the next game. I wouldn't expect to see everything from  the book incorporated in the game.

Problem is, the book's setup of the whole mage/Templar thing sounds vastly more interesting and fleshed out than DA2. That said, I am kind of sick of Mages/Templars before they've even started. I was hoping we'd end up seeing more of the world in the games before they busted up everything by having it all go to war.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 décembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[TheCreeper]

I hope Mages/Templars doesn't consume every single aspect of DA3 but considering DA2 literally was all about setting up that and hawke's rise to power, It would be very silly if it wasn't the central plot of DA3. It would be like if Mass Effect 3 was about a Turian/Asari War instead of the whole Reaper Invasion that we been building up to.