183 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptilian Rob]

Terror_K wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It's funny, because back when we had SNES, no one really cared how bad a game was, or how it was made. They just played the damn thing and had fun. Now it's more complex, with facebook drones and newage gamers not having that background, and only having that jumping in point of Playstation 2, Xbox or the late 90's PC. So the opinions and logic is based on that, and not the history that exsits in our medium. It's staggering how fast, or how people overlook history entierly. I remember the saying "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it", and I think that's what gaming has boiled down to as of late. It's just a cluster**** of entiled children droning over how their favorite franchise is either better than yours, or the equally annoying "Oh lord what has *insert game here* come to!"

I wish, and hope that gamers as a whole can move past this mentality and just enjoy the games as they are meant to be. But as long as we have the immature nature of facebook, and the mentality that everyone is entitled to something drifting through our minds, I see no change coming anytime soon.

Some people just want some consistency out of their favourite game IPs and want their games to be something they can continue to enjoy and remain essentially the same in tone, feel and style because that's why they got into it in the first place. It's hard to "just enjoy the games as they are meant to be" when the games can't even retain what they are meant to be, and instead keep getting retooled and rebooted to appeal to Johnny Mainstream.

I got into Mass Effect because it had some depth, weight, intelligence and maturity to it, and because it wasn't essentially the same mainstream, generic, oversimplified drivel made for the masses like most other AAA gaming titles these days are. And now as time goes on it seems to be becoming more and more like the very things the original game was so different from as BioWare and EA retool it for the mainstream market and seem to care about style over substance and more about getting more in than their existing fanbase.

It's not about entitlement so much as consistency and integrity of the franchise, and I believe that any IP, whether I like it or not, should remain consistent with itself and not just be retooled for the masses for the sake of profit. Mass Effect should always be Mass Effect, not Gears of Effect or Call of Effect or Haloffect or any other Effect. And CoD should always be CoD, Halo always Halo, and Gears always Gears, etc. That's also why Tomb Raider shouldn't become a gritty Uncharted clone, UFO: Enemy Unknown (or X-Com for you Yanks) a 1950's FPS, and Syndicate a gritty brown shooter.

You know, you're a really smart person and I respect that a great deal. You've really laid out your argument extemely well, and given a lot of solid facts to back it up. As a student and literature major, I can't tell you how fresh it is to see that. I agree with a lot of what you say, and I'm still one of the biggest Mass Effect fans out there. But I still wish that both gamers and companies see that sometimes, enough is enough and in reality we just want to play and have fun, and be apart of a grand story while doing so. 

[Terror_K]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

But I still wish that both gamers and companies see that sometimes, enough is enough and in reality we just want to play and have fun, and be apart of a grand story while doing so. 

I'd like that too. I really would. But BioWare is making it increasingly hard when they seem to want to drive the game away from me more and more over time and keep trying to alienate me. Three years ago I wouldn't have said a bad word against BioWare, and thought they were fantastic. Now I'm starting to hate them even more than some developers that I was never a big fan of in the first place. And that's simply due to the fact that they keep making decisions that I disagree strongly with and want to change their games into something other than they started out as for the sake of pandering to a bigger, more profitable audience.

I want to have fun, but quite simply BioWare won't really let me with the way they're designing their games now.

[tmp7704]

bleetman wrote...

I'll only consider it a problem if the game starts going down the Starcraft 2 route of having one character routinely help another get back up in a display of brotherhood and camaraderie whilst the camera focuses in on their hands just in case we miss the touching bonding moment.

This would require making a new animation. I think we all realize that Mass Effect has the air quotes animation to serve as equivalent of these moments.

(also the dramatic leap animation now, by the looks of it)

[Epic777]

Terror_K wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Being influenced by outside sources is fine. One expects developers to look at the work of other developers and get an idea of what works. Copy n' pasting it straight out of one game and into another and not really doing a good job of adapting it properly because your game is actually a different genre is not fine. Many of my issues with ME2 stem from the fact that BioWare seemed to port over many TPS elements and just wedged them in there without properly adapting them for an RPG, which is essentially what Mass Effect is at its heart. In fact, many RPG aspects were pushed aside to make room for the TPS elements ported in and not really properly brought back, or at least not in a way that integrates it well with the more purely shooter combat gameplay ME2 had.

Simply put, Mass Effect 2's TPS elements should have been better integrated into the core gameplay and adapted to it more. Because they weren't the whole game felt like an inconsistent, unfocused mess that tried to be one thing one moment, and another the next, but was rarely ever both at the same time. Hence why many people have referred to ME2 as "Gears of War with dialogue choices" (or something similar).

Thats is my enigma with ME1. By your own standards ME1 is a poor RPG. It is KOTOR ~guns edition~. Most of the typical RPG points are poorly executed. The inventory and loot systems were terrible. But ME1 is still lauded for its RPG elements despite all this. How? 

Perhaps because at their core they were fine for the most part, but just not executed as well as they could have been. ME1 was a cinematic action RPG from the start, and didn't suffer from trying to suddenly force elements that didn't really suit it into itself, it merely executed suitable elements in a clumsy fashion. ME1 clearly wasn't trying to be the TPS with RPG elements that ME2 became, otherwise it would have incorporated a much simpler TPS approach to combat from the get-go instead of adding a stat-based form of combat ala an RPG (because it was one). ME2 was simply  "retooled for a new target demographic" and given the TPS make-over not because it was better for the gameplay and Mass Effect series, but because shooters are the big thing and big seller now, and appealing to the ADD-gamer set who want little more besides action and get bored and snitty if anything gets in the way of it too long or at any form of complexity. ME1 wasn't appreciated enough for what it was trying to be, so it changed with the sequel to suit common, mainstream tastes rather than continue to try and be what it set out to. ME1 wasn't supposed to be a TPS or play like one, but it looked like one and the Gears set expected it to play like one. So when it didn't and they kicked up a stink, BioWare made it more like one.

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think everyone gets it. You're upset because your unsuitable expectations regarding the choices in the games were too high and now you're mad about it. Get over it already.

I fail to see how people who expect Mass Effect to stay true to its and be a better RPG have "unsuitable expectations" exactly. Unless by "unsuitable" you mean "unsuitable for BioWare's overall new direction for their games.

If ME1 was not supposed to be at least partly a TPS then why bother with cover mechanics? Why bother with crouching mechanics? Why make so many shooting intensive parts? Why go though all that trouble to create a simple Action-RPG? If I needed to build a shed, I am not going to put in plumbing. It does not suit its needs and the same thing is here. ME1 clearly has enough TPS elements to consider it partially a TPS. 
Mass Effect complex how? The gameplay is slow, it is not a test of reflexs or hand to eye coordination. As long as you level the right powers, armor, weapons (gold standard), this game even on insanity will not be difficult. 
Mass Effect 1 was not appreciated? Your kidding me? Look at the reviews. You cannot complain that your niche is being ignored by the mainstream but yet reject any influences from the (dreaded) mainstream.  

[Drone223]

jreezy wrote...

Sgt.Catman wrote...

Man, i remember the days where video games were for the point of entertainment, not for arguing over every bit of detail like 5 year old kids.

I miss those days.

I know how you guys feel, unfortuantly (sp) these arguments are becoming more worse by the year

[Terror_K]

Epic777 wrote...

If ME1 was not supposed to be at least partly a TPS then why bother with cover mechanics? Why bother with crouching mechanics? Why make so many shooting intensive parts? Why go though all that trouble to create a simple Action-RPG? If I needed to build a shed, I am not going to put in plumbing. It does not suit its needs and the same thing is here. ME1 clearly has enough TPS elements to consider it partially a TPS.

It was an Action RPG with some TPS elements, yes. GTA: San Andreas had some RPG elements, and so do the Call of Duty titles and things like Hitman: Blood Money, but that doesn't make them RPGs. Having TPS elements didn't make ME1 a TPS either. With ME2 it became a TPS, and even BioWare themselves admitted to much with comments along the lines of "ME2 is now as much a shooter as an RPG" etc.

Mass Effect complex how? The gameplay is slow, it is not a test of reflexs or hand to eye coordination. As long as you level the right powers, armor, weapons (gold standard), this game even on insanity will not be difficult.

You're mixing being complex with complexity. I'm not talking about the difficulty of the combat, I'm talking about the fact that it has the RPG elements such as powers, builds, various items, modding, etc. that add more complexity to the game than merely, "run, take cover, shoot enemies until dead, then rinse and repeat." You yourself add the caveat of "as you as you level the right powers, etc." which just goes to illustrate that. I've spoken to people who played ME1 and treated it like a standard shooter, and didn't even realise what the powers were and how necessary it was to invest in the right ones, etc. and were wondering why they were so handicapped and couldn't select dialogue options, etc.

Mass Effect 1 was not appreciated? Your kidding me? Look at the reviews. You cannot complain that your niche is being ignored by the mainstream but yet reject any influences from the (dreaded) mainstream.  

Reviews or not, ME1 didn't hit the big numbers, despite being a success. So of course it had to be made more like the big sellers (i.e. the CoD's, the Halo's, the Gears) because with EA at the helm now, profit is more important than sticking to the original vision. I saw plenty of people in ME1's wake coming to the old BioWare forums and complaining that ME1 didn't play like a pure TPS, and who just didn't seem to get it. So instead of just thinking that these idiots weren't worth it and continuing to make the series for those it was originally made for, BioWare changed the formula more to suit the masses by making it more of a TPS.

Simply put: ME1 started as a Nerd Game, and is now being made more and more of a Jock Game instead. Nerd games aren't as profitable as Jock ones, and their nerdish leanings tend to scare the common mainstream gamer away.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Terror, this is an action game. You have to accept that. I'm looking forward to the game for the TPS action and ending to the trilogy.

Don't expect amazing depth from this game, it will be little more than Uncharted in space with companions. That's not a bad thing though, Uncharted is a damn fun game. That's just what Mass Effect is now, accept it.

Now we just have to all rally in protest to keep DA as a tactical RPG. It's not too late for DA.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 12 décembre 2011 - 10:03 .

[Terror_K]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Terror, this is an action game. You have to accept that. I'm looking forward to the game for the TPS action and ending to the trilogy.

Don't expect amazing depth from this game, it will be little more than Uncharted in space with companions. That's not a bad thing though, Uncharted is a damn fun game. That's just what Mass Effect is now, accept it.

Never!

[H1natachan]

Could be worse i guess, maybe Shepard will take a arrow to the knee

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

Reviews or not, ME1 didn't hit the big numbers, despite being a success. So of course it had to be made more like the big sellers (i.e. the CoD's, the Halo's, the Gears) because with EA at the helm now, profit is more important than sticking to the original vision. I saw plenty of people in ME1's wake coming to the old BioWare forums and complaining that ME1 didn't play like a pure TPS, and who just didn't seem to get it. So instead of just thinking that these idiots weren't worth it and continuing to make the series for those it was originally made for, BioWare changed the formula more to suit the masses by making it more of a TPS.

Simply put: ME1 started as a Nerd Game, and is now being made more and more of a Jock Game instead. Nerd games aren't as profitable as Jock ones, and their nerdish leanings tend to scare the common mainstream gamer away.

Honestly? If the difference between ME1 and ME2 is the difference  between what you call a 'nerd game" and "a jock game", I think I'll take the latter. Bioware's first venture into the tps/RPG genre was probably one of the worse attempts I've seen at uniting the two into a coherent whole. And I'm not sure I'd be giddy to hear them try a second attempt at inventory, amongst other things.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 décembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Chuvvy]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

No worse than Drake. Everything he touches falls down.

Except the animations in uncharted are good and it looks realistic. Shepards falls don't have any weight to them. I looks like he's falling but not hitting anything.

[Chuvvy]

christoffee wrote...


Just reading OP's post. You do have a point if Shep keeps on falling on his ass, but Drake's fall usually starts another key scenario. I think Bioware have looked at that and thought it was a good enough element to add into their game. If you look at it, shep is facing a sh!t load of reapers, if he doesn't react to the destruction around him, it would look a bit silly. And then people would probably then complain that Shep doesn't respond to that.

Well he doesn't really react to it. If you watch that trailer from the VGAs, Shepard doesn't even flinch when things are slamming into the ground right in front of him.

[Il Divo]

Damn, now more than ever I would like to give Uncharted a shot. Probably the only PS3 exclusive series that I feel like I missed out on.

[Vertrucio]

The problem lies in that they can't dedicate any more memory to the animation and movement system than allocated already. Uncharted doesn't the same amount of extra data to track on top of the gameplay, so it can do more with the actual combat and traversal, including such a dynamic animation system. We'll have to wait for the next generation of consoles, or for everything to go back to PCs for that to happen.

And to be honest, after the last 2 ME games were basically take (or don't take) cover and shoot and repeat, with basically flat levels where nothing major happens to the terrain. I think I can stand to have a lot of sequences where the battlefield gets rearranged.

[Chuvvy]

Il Divo wrote...

Damn, now more than ever I would like to give Uncharted a shot. Probably the only PS3 exclusive series that I feel like I missed out on.

It's a very good series. Naughty Dog is a grade A dev.

[Il Divo]

Slidell505 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Damn, now more than ever I would like to give Uncharted a shot. Probably the only PS3 exclusive series that I feel like I missed out on.

It's a very good series. Naughty Dog is a grade A dev.

I completely believe it. I pissed myself when I saw Amy Hennig (Legacy of Kain's lead writer/director) was the one responsible for doing Uncharted. It raised the series from "looks really cool" to "might buy a PS3 just for this" kinda deal.

[Kabanya101]

This is a post to all future posters, but can someone explain why everyone must complain about every little detail about the game.

Shepard is tumbling and falling to much is a problem? He's facing a giant skyscraper that has a cannon tearing up the ground around him. So with debris flying and the ground under his feet being destroyed, seems to repetitive.

I would rather have a real fight like that than an indestructable environment and playing peekaboo with a giant Fcking head.


Off Topic:

Just when you thought someone couldn't possibly come up with something to complain about, someone on BSN does. If I was a moderator I'd close this thread and about half the other ME3 threads.

PEOPLE FIND REAL COMPLAINTS to talk about.

NOT
1. This person couldn't die
2. Some text in the codex that nobody cares about except for about 4% of the players of the ME series
3. This person isn't a love interest
4. X weapon is the best because I think so
5. Marriage/children/parents and other unrelated things in a war
6. This race needs to be a squadmate

Look I know its a shocker, but something that walks on four legs and talks with his ass can't do anything in a fight or soemone who waddles like a penguin and gets out of breath from ordering a cheeseburger or something that has no body dimension or eyes and seemingly floats in the air are usless in combat.

If your going to complain about something, make it a legitimate argument and explain in detail about how its affecting your gaming or immersion or whatever. Not so and so is dumb because I don't like it.

I come on during my break at work and all I see are the same five posters in a forum complaining about some minor detail.

[Dominus]

Although it is just a trailer, you do have a point - we wouldn't be at page 6 if you didn't. As great as it was on a graphical level, it would be nice to see something that didn't require enormous set pieces or massive explosions. What that would be, exactly, I have no idea...but something that contains a different tone than what we've seen thus far would be nice. Yes, earth is burning, but we don't need to see it burning, blowing up, or otherwise being devastated in every trailer made for it.

[Harmless Citizen]

This is a post to all future posters, but can someone explain why everyone must complain about every little detail about the game.

This is the BSN. That is answer enough.

[Terror_K]

Kabanya101 wrote...

If your going to complain about something, make it a legitimate argument and explain in detail about how its affecting your gaming or immersion or whatever. Not so and so is dumb because I don't like it.

I come on during my break at work and all I see are the same five posters in a forum complaining about some minor detail.

But it is immersion-breaking, if only for the fact that it starts to get so overdone it ends up pulling you out of the game. That's my point.

And I never said it was "dumb because I don't like it" because I did actually like it the first time and thought it was well done. It's the fact that we've seen the same thing happen again and again in half the clips we've seen. It's not bad, it's just overdone, and by being overdone it loses it's impact entirely. We've seen it happen three times already in what amounts to probably about an hours worth of gameplay. How many more times is it going to be in the 30-40 hours of gameplay in the final game if that's the case?

I'm just trying to let BioWare know that if they have this happening on almost every planet like it seems, it's going to go from a neat little pre-scripted event and become annoying and repetitive. The way it's looking, it could become the Mass Effect 3 equivalent of Skyrim's "arrow to the knee" meme:

"I'd have stopped the Reapers faster, but they kept shaking the ground and making me tumble down some broken debris" -- Shepard.

On top of it all, it may seem like a small factor to you, but personally I was annoyed and taken out of the game so many times with ME2 largely due to a lot of little niggles. So many so it was hardly to really enjoy the game for any extended period of time before something came along to rip me out of it. Little things add up, and while a bee sting may be mildly annoying, dozens of them becomes more serious.

[Arkitekt]

Ghost-621 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

bleetman wrote...

I think y'all are lost. This is Mass Effect 3 General Discussion. 'Incessant Whining About Call of Duty' is that way.

Being that EA injected as much COD as they could into beloved franchises such as Mass Effect, Battlefield and Dead Space I think we're just where we need to be. 

1000x this.

So, bleetman, take your arrogance and shove it, kindly.

Talk about irony. Sheeesh.