364 réponses à ce sujet

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

BlahDog wrote...
Yes, this is a weak excuse but
Gameplay>Lore

This.

If they followed the lore to the very letter, it'd be pretty boring because of all the things you'd have to manage, like power cells for the shields, ammo blocks, thermal clips, you'd only be able to fire off about three biotic powers per mission, you'd be forced to discharge the Normandy's core, (this is something they had planned for the game, by the way) everything would have a limit. Some pretty unpractical ones too.

I said nothing about Lore.  I just asked that the changes made sense.  As is, they do not and I doubt the changes ever will.   But that is not what I was asking.  At this point, BW has thrown ALL lore out the window and we all, as players, must either accept it or stop playing.

Yes, because we are commande lizzard-face fighting the evil crabs of Mordore with our guns that shoot snake oil. Also lore and sense are basically interchangeable. Lore decides everything that makes sense in that universe.

And I went against my only rule to voice my opinion. And yes, I did do that in like one minute in photoshop.

Modifié par BlahDog, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:40 .

[Jog0907]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Ammo powers do not change the ammunition from the source, it modifies it in the middle, for example:

You start with your generic ammo, then you move to the modifier station in the gun which applies the certain modidfication you want, and then it goes out of the gun.

As for the squad ammo power it could be a transmission of sorts that is sent out by one user and then applied to the other weapons.

Yes, this is a weak excuse but
[bGameplay>Lore/Sense
Mass Effect has been very good about its lore and ability to make sense so far, I don't particularly like it  but you have to let it get away with this one little thing. 

Right.  So if the weapon make the changes then why the hell is it dependant on who is in your squad?  It's a hardware setting/modification and remains in the weapon.  That was what the ME1 mods were for.  In ME2, they became 'magical'.  No matter how it is looked at, either hardware mod in ME1 or magical power in ME2, the weapon itself must be able to do it.  That means the lasers for supercooling cyro rounds, phosphorus (what ever inferno uses) additions, warpyammosillynessthingy or just plain concussion are ALL already part of the weapons.  How can this be ignored?

And for fun, the weapon hardware mod for warp ammo is a tiny asari, pressed into service. 

No they didnt become magical as you said they simply need for the user to be knowledgeable about how to perform the mods and keep maintenace of the system in a real time scenario, more realistic than just stick this
bar into that hole to get toxic rounds IMO.

Modifié par Jog0907, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:41 .

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Yes, because we are commande lizzard-face fighting the evil crabs of Mordore with our guns that shoot snake oil. Also lore and sense are basically interchangeable. Lore decides everything that makes sense in that universe.

Yer start'n ta catch on.

Star Wars 4:  Han whips out his laser blaster and kills the storm trooper with a shot to the head.
Star Wars 5:  Han whips out his smuggler abilities to zap the storm trooper to death because Liea was not in his party.
Star Wars 6:  Han whips out his stabby knife because, well, just because he didn't have that technology a year ago. And you have to admit it's pretty sweet.

Fixed that for you.

Modifié par BlahDog, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[Jog0907]

Calinstel wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

No they didnt become magical as you said they simply need for the user
to be knowledgeable about how to perform the mods and keep maintenace of
the system in a real time scenario, more realistic than just stick this
bar into that hole to get toxic rounds IMO.

We are talking about weapons any ground pounding soldier would be using.  That IS basic training.  Far more basic than hacking a door.
Show me a soldier who cannot field strip his weapon or use it in any mode available to them and I'll show you someone who will be dead in the first confrontation.

yeah and combat classes DO learn how to use these ammo mods (the ones that enhance their training and standard weapon loadout the most)

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...


Fixed that for you.

Altering a post?  Low, even for ME2 magic powers lovers. 

I'm not a very moraled person, I get over it.

[Jog0907]

Calinstel wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

yeah and combat classes DO learn how to use these ammo mods (the ones that enhance their training and standard weapon loadout the most)

Yep, that's called boot camp.
And Shepard, a N7, would know all of them.

and n7 adepts would have ALL the biotic skills in the game, and n7 engineers would know ALL the tech skills

[The Spamming Troll]

Jog0907 wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

yeah and combat classes DO learn how to use these ammo mods (the ones that enhance their training and standard weapon loadout the most)

Yep, that's called boot camp.
And Shepard, a N7, would know all of them.

and n7 adepts would have ALL the biotic skills in the game, and n7 engineers would know ALL the tech skills

well is there supposed to be actually 6 schools of being a soldier in the MEuniverse? do you think garrus trained with only infiltrators. and jack somehow learned to be an obviouse vangaurd all by herself?

i totally agree tho. i wish an adept had all the biotics, or atleast had a choice in what biotics they used. so were not all creating a pull, warp, singularity adept. maybe id like to focus my biotics on a slam, barrier, reave adept. while youd like a warp ammo, stasis, throw adept.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 17 décembre 2011 - 07:04 .

[Fixers0]

Unfortuantly Most skills are ridiculous, as the majority of them don't even represent the character's military training, just a collection of 'powers' that should have been equipment or weaponry, this especialy the problem with combat and tech skills, Example: How is shooting a fireball out of your omni tool somthing that one 'learns' on combat training and that one can 'learn' to be more effective in, should't it just be installing a program on your omni tool and upgrading it?

[Random citizen]

Jog0907 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

BlahDog wrote...
Yes, this is a weak excuse but
Gameplay>Lore

This.

If they followed the lore to the very letter, it'd be pretty boring because of all the things you'd have to manage, like power cells for the shields, ammo blocks, thermal clips, you'd only be able to fire off about three biotic powers per mission, youd be forced to discharge the Normandy's core, (this is something they had planned for the game, by the way) everything would have a limit. Some pretty unpractical ones too.

also a good designer (regardless of area) understands the necesities of that which he designs, in the case of videogames this comes with knowing that good, enticing gameplay is a must and if some corrections must be done to lore to acomodate improved gameplay then so be it.

I can see why people can come to this conclusion, but I consider it a shallow one. And that is because the gameplay is contextualized by the setting which is defined by the lore. Very simplified: any game that fails in one of these aspects will fail a category of players. The "gameplay gamer" or the "lore observant immersionist".

Part of MEs problem is not only that they have been inconstant chafing between lore anf gameplay, but also that the lore it self is inconsistent. ME1 defined much of the lore through its gameplay. Therefore it is very strange to, for example, write literature set in the ME universe that states that you cant use biotics that often when the opposite is true for the game.

A good storyteller that cares about his or her creation does not make such newbie mistakes.

[crimzontearz]

again...I'd love to hear a comment from the devs on the matter....really. If anything to explain the modus pensandi behind this decision

[Andorfiend]

BlahDog wrote...

Yes, this is a weak excuse but
Gameplay>Lore

Gameplay stops trumping lore when it becomes so divergent that it breaks my suspension of disbelief and therefor breaks my fun.

The Ammo powers don't quite qualify, they are stupid from a lore perspective and a waste of game space that could have been filled with more interesting powers. (And before anyone asks what a soldier is supposed to get instead, there are pages of ideas in this very thread.)(BTW claims that they are better than passives are silly because they are passives that share a single switchable slot.)

It's not game breaking for me. I can choose not to think about the ammo powers. I'm frankly more annoyed by things like my inability to tell Joker to shoot down Balak or Vigo as they fled in shuttles.

Ammo clips damm near are game breaking for me, especially since they rub your face in how different they are by having Shepard complain that he doesn't have one in the first 10 seconds of the game. Never mind that he was dead when the damm things were invented and should instead be asking why his gun doesn't work, thereby giving Miranda a chance to exposition the stupid things into existence.

In the end gameplay does not trump lore, for me, for Mass Effect, because that's not why I love this series! I can't play first person shooters at all, they give me vertigo. I couldn't even play Skyrim. This is the only shooter series I play, and I don't play it because it's a shooter, I play it because it's Mass Effect.

ME 1 was the first bioware game I bought. I've spent a lot of money since then with new games like Dragon Age and older games like KOTOR and Jade Empire. All different play styles, but all excellent RPGs. If they make the mistake of thinking shootery gameplay I couldn't care less about renders the RPG/lore aspects of the game irrelevent then they will have stopped making games I care about, and they will have lost me as a customer. Not a threat btw, just an observation on cause and effect.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 17 décembre 2011 - 03:40 .

[jasonsantanna]

From Mass Effect Wikia:
Omni-tools are handheld devices that combine a computer microframe, sensor analysis pack, and minifacturing fabricator. Versatile and reliable, an omni-tool can be used to analyze and adjust the functionality of most standard equipment, including WEAPONS and armor, from a distance.

from codex:
Advances in technology have made individual soldiers more dangerous and survivable than ever before.


The development of practical minifacturing omni-tools allows modern militaries a great deal of flexibility in equipment load-outs. A vast number of field modification kits, or "upgrades", are available for common equipment such as WEAPONS, armor, omni-tools, biotic amps, and even grenades.
An upgrade kit typically consists of less than a dozen unique parts and an optical storage disc. When loaded into an omni-tool, the OSD provides all technical specifications required to manufacture the tool and additional parts necessary to install the upgrade onto another piece of equipment. Assembly is typically modular, and installation can be completed in less than a minute.
Since omni-tools are designed to use common battlefield salvage materials such as plastics, ceramics, and light materials (rendered into semi-molten "omni-gel" for quick use), it is quite possible for a trained soldier carrying upgrade kits to customize gear on the battlefield to fit the current tactical situation.


Both of these entries kind of fit the way ammo powers work

[jasonsantanna]

From Mass Effect Wikia:
Omni-tools are handheld devices that combine a computer microframe, sensor analysis pack, and minifacturing fabricator. Versatile and reliable, an omni-tool can be used to analyze and adjust the functionality of most standard equipment, including WEAPONS and armor, from a distance.

from codex:
Advances in technology have made individual soldiers more dangerous and survivable than ever before.


The development of practical minifacturing omni-tools allows modern militaries a great deal of flexibility in equipment load-outs. A vast number of field modification kits, or "upgrades", are available for common equipment such as WEAPONS, armor, omni-tools, biotic amps, and even grenades.
An upgrade kit typically consists of less than a dozen unique parts and an optical storage disc. When loaded into an omni-tool, the OSD provides all technical specifications required to manufacture the tool and additional parts necessary to install the upgrade onto another piece of equipment. Assembly is typically modular, and installation can be completed in less than a minute.
Since omni-tools are designed to use common battlefield salvage materials such as plastics, ceramics, and light materials (rendered into semi-molten "omni-gel" for quick use), it is quite possible for a trained soldier carrying upgrade kits to customize gear on the battlefield to fit the current tactical situation.


Both of these entries kind of fit the way ammo powers work

SORRY DOUBLE POST

Modifié par jasonsantanna, 17 décembre 2011 - 03:54 .

[Jog0907]

Calinstel wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

yeah and combat classes DO learn how to use these ammo mods (the ones that enhance their training and standard weapon loadout the most)

Yep, that's called boot camp.
And Shepard, a N7, would know all of them.

and n7 adepts would have ALL the biotic skills in the game, and n7 engineers would know ALL the tech skills

Funny.  I'm referring to basic Algebra and you're using Advanced Physics as a counter arguement. 

Not at all given how it is unknown just how difficult it is to handle such ammo changes. You cant assume that is easy but can assume it has its difficulty given how many just learn to handle one or two modifications, instead of all.
Thats why I used the engineer and adept as an example since it shows that n7 cant teach every skill available even to special forces, but it still teaches a high number of them (you also see that most basic troopers cant learn all the ways to mod ammo in a battlefield, at most they get one), you are simply assuming that ammo mods is easy and can be taught to anyone in bootcamp when the game clearly shows the opposite and that is that you need above average soldiers in order to manage active ammo modding instead of just using default weapon settings.

Modifié par Jog0907, 17 décembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[RoboticWater]

Andorfiend wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Yes, this is a weak excuse but
Gameplay>Lore

Gameplay stops trumping lore when it becomes so divergent that it breaks my suspension of disbelief and therefor breaks my fun.

The Ammo powers don't quite qualify, they are stupid from a lore perspective and a waste of game space that could have been filled with more interesting powers. (And before anyone asks what a soldier is supposed to get instead, there are pages of ideas in this very thread.)(BTW claims that they are better than passives are silly because they are passives that share a single switchable slot.)

It's not game breaking for me. I can choose not to think about the ammo powers. I'm frankly more annoyed by things like my inability to tell Joker to shoot down Balak or Vigo as they fled in shuttles.

Ammo clips damm near are game breaking for me, especially since they rub your face in how different they are by having Shepard complain that he doesn't have one in the first 10 seconds of the game. Never mind that he was dead when the damm things were invented and should instead be asking why his gun doesn't work, thereby giving Miranda a chance to exposition the stupid things into existence.

In the end gameplay does not trump lore, for me, for Mass Effect, because that's not why I love this series! I can't play first person shooters at all, they give me vertigo. I couldn't even play Skyrim. This is the only shooter series I play, and I don't play it because it's a shooter, I play it because it's Mass Effect.

ME 1 was the first bioware game I bought. I've spent a lot of money since then with new games like Dragon Age and older games like KOTOR and Jade Empire. All different play styles, but all excellent RPGs. If they make the mistake of thinking shootery gameplay I couldn't care less about renders the RPG/lore aspects of the game irrelevent then they will have stopped making games I care about, and they will have lost me as a customer. Not a threat btw, just an observation on cause and effect.

If you aren't getting Mass Effect for the gamplay, you're doing something wrong. I can promise that there are many sci-fi novels and movies that have much greater stories. I understand that you may be hooked on the ME seiries but if you can't enjoy the game part of a video game then it may be time to move on. If you can tolerate the gameplay then at least understand that some poeple really enjoy it and those are the people that Bioware cater to. And Bioware rightly does it, I do play games for a good story but I will sacrifice some of the story for the gameplay because at the end of the day all Mass Effect is, is a video game.

If Boiware decided to randomly change something in Mass Effect that has no effect on the gameplay or the improvement in gameplay was not great enough to justify that change, then I would be angry but TCs and ammo powers were a necessary edition IMO and hardly change how any of the story will play out. Ammo powers should be the last thing that people complain about when it comes to lore. There are a plethora of things that don't make sense that in the context of ME's lore but the one thing that is picked on is the one because it changed one of the things that people come for in Mass Effect, gameplay.

If you took a day and reviewed every ounce of Mass Effect lore and wrote a paper on every inconsistency, retcon, and non sensical act in Mass Effect, only then can you really appreciate how inane having ammo powers is. I haven't done this and probably I never will because I can get over them. I don't play Mass Effect and pick out every little thing wrong with it, I play to have fun and watch a good story. Maybe that story doesn't make sense when put under a microscope but does it need to? No. Mass Effect has a good plot and that's all it needs in my mind. Maybe the lore needs to be air tight in your mind but then you wouldn't be into Sci-fi because no Sci-fi movie, game, or book completely explains everything. There's always a hole, Mass Effect just has been good about hiding that hole from us.

Also ammo powers are not passive, at least in my eyes. Passive powers are something likke +10 to damage or accuracy. Ammo powers actually do something other than some simple stat increase. They can freeze an enemy or burn them, both of those are active effects. 

Modifié par BlahDog, 17 décembre 2011 - 04:54 .

[crimzontearz]

thank you Blahdog

you pretty much proved that those changes were made to appease the people who could not care less about consistency as long as gameplay gets to be cloned from a lowbrow blockbuster. People like you holding this mentality are the very reason why the excuse "it's just a game" is still used and. My people callit "pressapochismo"...there is no english word to translate it

but thank you.... thank you very much...

[Firesteel]

I do believe that if we didn't have the rock paper scissors style of gameplay we would not need ammo powers. ME1 could get away with mods because they did not give the weapon an advantage over a defense. Now, both ammo and powers are geared to destroy a single kind of defense, meaning the soldier needs them to stay playable on insanity. If defenses were back to ME1, then by all means we could have ammo mods, but with the current combat system, the soldier could no longer be one of two jack-of-all trades classes..

[RoboticWater]

crimzontearz wrote...

thank you Blahdog

you pretty much proved that those changes were made to appease the people who could not care less about consistency as long as gameplay gets to be cloned from a lowbrow blockbuster. People like you holding this mentality are the very reason why the excuse "it's just a game" is still used and. My people callit "pressapochismo"...there is no english word to translate it

but thank you.... thank you very much...

From what are these things "cloned"? Ammo powers are actually quite unique, at least to me. I haven't seen any game with them.

I hold a mentality that every game developer deserves slack to improve gameplay. If the devs said that all biotics are now vampires that have a new set of abilities then I would get mad but for something that is as small as ammo powers and helps the gameplay so much, I let it pass.

And you must no have read my part on how many non-gameplay inconsistencies there are. If that is truely your position then why do you emphisize this little aspect more than every other part?

Modifié par BlahDog, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:17 .