364 réponses à ce sujet

[RoboticWater]

Bluko wrote...


I haved played Soldier on Insanity trust me. Also Adept, which was even easier. And yes I'm talking about ME2, although granted it's sort of the same deal as ME1 just not as jarring. I've also played a bit as Vanguard/Inflitrator on Insanity as well but I don't find doing so anymore interesting.

My point still stands. Did anyone as a Soldier fully invest in two or more Ammo Trees? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

First of all, you would eventually need to upgrade an ammo power fully or at least have a decent number of points spread across all of them considering the fact that most of your powers are ammo powers. Secondly people have many ways of playing, you may have not used ammo powers much but that is only one tactic. Both your tactic and everyone else's tactics (within reason) are viable. You just chose to not use ammo powers others didn't, it makes neither a recipe for disaster.  

I know that. Look I don't expect Soldier to have any Biotics or Tech really. But I'd rather have no powers then ammo powers if that makes any sense.

I'm also aware that the two suggestions I offered aren't exactly great. I dunno Adrenaline Rush is kind of too good. Of course this is an inherent flaw with ME2 as you're expected to spam your "class Power" so they tend all tend to be somewhat OP in comparison to everything else.

It's not a flaw that ME 2 made you use your class power a lot, your class power complemented the play-style of the class. The soldier just has to use his/her's more because it was the closest to an actual power other than concussive shot.

Well here's how I would have liked an ME2 Soldier Skill Tree:

Adrenaline Rush
Concussive Shot
Conditioning
(Increases Storm Speed/Boosts Melee Damage)-The problem with this is that ME is a cover shooter and allowing for running abilities sort of defeats the purpose of using cover.
Runner: Unlimited Sprint (Constant)
CQC:Knock enemies down with melee attack (Constant)
Endurance
(Incease Ammo Capacity/Increase Health)-Doing this would lessen the importance of adaptability because instead of being forced to switch to another weapon and use new tactics, when you run out of ammo you just spam this
Resupply: Omni-Tool creates spare Thermal Clip*
Hardened: Temporary Immunity to "stagger" effects-I don't remember getting staggered very much but this could be useful in the off chancce it happens
Gunner
(Increase Weapon Damage/Reduce Weapon Draw TIme)
Marksman: 2x Headshot Damage (Constant)-These could work as passive upgrades and it seems that this sort of thing is happening in ME 3
Support: 2x Damage vs Armor/Shields/Barrier (Constant)
Combat Mastery
(Increase Paragon/Renegade Scores and Power Duration)

See key problem is Combat Mastery takes cares of way too many "stats" and this is true for all classes I'd say. This skill tree is always a no-brainer to invest in, and you pretty much have to. There also probably should have been actual "Speech/Influence" skill, but that's just me.-I prefer that it is included because I really don't want to choose between combat effectiveness and my ability to make choices

*Would make more sense especially were friendly A.I. actually constrained by same rules as player. Sadly all A.I. has unlimited ammo.

[Epic777]

 

I know that. Look I don't expect Soldier to have any Biotics or Tech really. But I'd rather have no powers then ammo powers if that makes any sense.
I'm also aware that the two suggestions I offered aren't exactly great. I dunno Adrenaline Rush is kind of too good. Of course this is an inherent flaw with ME2 as you're expected to spam your "class Power" so they tend all tend to be somewhat OP in comparison to everything else. 

I believe this is a problem with the ME series not just ME2 (actually RPGs in general).  There was no good argument for not taking immunity or singularity in ME1. Same with snowblind rounds or spectre weapons. 

[tonnactus]

eye basher wrote...

In ME1 the ammo mods were worthless....

On normal maybee. Stoping enemies from regenerating health was necessary on the highest difficulty,especially krogans...

[didymos1120]

tonnactus wrote...

On normal maybee. Stoping enemies from regenerating health was necessary on the highest difficulty,especially krogans...

Not necessary.  It just really cut down on the tedium factor.

[Epic777]

tonnactus wrote...

eye basher wrote...

In ME1 the ammo mods were worthless....

On normal maybee. Stoping enemies from regenerating health was necessary on the highest difficulty,especially krogans...

If only, it was the immunity spamming that made things tough.

[didymos1120]

Epic777 wrote...

If only, it was the immunity spamming that made things tough.

I still want to know how the hell Immunity was supposed to work.  They didn't even bother coming up with some technobabble handwave.  It just sort of was.

[Bleachrude]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Ammo powers do not change the ammunition from the source, it modifies it in the middle, for example:

You start with your generic ammo, then you move to the modifier station in the gun which applies the certain modidfication you want, and then it goes out of the gun.

As for the squad ammo power it could be a transmission of sorts that is sent out by one user and then applied to the other weapons.

Yes, this is a weak excuse but
[bGameplay>Lore/Sense
Mass Effect has been very good about its lore and ability to make sense so far, I don't particularly like it  but you have to let it get away with this one little thing. 

Right.  So if the weapon make the changes then why the hell is it dependant on who is in your squad?  It's a hardware setting/modification and remains in the weapon.  That was what the ME1 mods were for.  In ME2, they became 'magical'.  No matter how it is looked at, either hardware mod in ME1 or magical power in ME2, the weapon itself must be able to do it.  That means the lasers for supercooling cyro rounds, phosphorus (what ever inferno uses) additions, warpyammosillynessthingy or just plain concussion are ALL already part of the weapons.  How can this be ignored?

And for fun, the weapon hardware mod for warp ammo is a tiny asari, pressed into service. 

Because every omnitool doesn't have the exact same capabilities.

Otherwise, every tech power should be available to everyone since tech powers _ARE_ handled via the omni-tool....

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...

I still want to know how the hell Immunity was supposed to work.  They didn't even bother coming up with some technobabble handwave.  It just sort of was.

So much for being more immersible compared to the other games.

Ammo powers are breaking your immersion? How about the fact that you can absorb the munition of a small army if you just spam Immunity?

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Bleachrude wrote...

Because every omnitool doesn't have the exact same capabilities.

Otherwise, every tech power should be available to everyone since tech powers _ARE_ handled via the omni-tool....

Why wouldn't they all have the same capabilities? It can't be *that* hard to configure an omni-tool to use tech powers if half of the characters have that capability.

But really, this is where the http://tvtropes.org/...T3KMantra]MST3K mantra[/url] comes in handy. Mass Effect combat isn't exactly realistic hard SF.

[didymos1120]

Someone With Mass wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

I still want to know how the hell Immunity was supposed to work.  They didn't even bother coming up with some technobabble handwave.  It just sort of was.

So much for being more immersible compared to the other games.

ME1 has plenty of weirdness with its talents, if you think about them for half a second. Why does weapon training allow me magically reduce the amount of heat a pistol/AR produces while simultaneously firing much faster than normal?  Why does becoming a Spectre suddenly allow me to raise the dead?  What the hell is up with those "how to wear armor more better" skills anyway?  Why does studying First Aid make medi-gel work better?  Isn't that stuff supposed to just be a standard product? Why is Neural Shock part of Medicine exactly?  Also, how does that make Medi-gel cool down faster?  Wait...why would Medi-gel even have a cooldown timer?

The answer to them all, of course, is "Because it's a damn game, that's why."

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 décembre 2011 - 09:21 .

[alex90c]

didymos1120 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

If only, it was the immunity spamming that made things tough.

I still want to know how the hell Immunity was supposed to work.  They didn't even bother coming up with some technobabble handwave.  It just sort of was.

*whip out omni-tool*

*beep*

there you go.

wait, I mean "mass effect fields!" 

[jasonsantanna]

There are alot of things not explained in the Mass Effect universe, thats not to say later on it maybe expanded on, then agian maybe it won't weather its game play or story wise or power based
here are a few others

Medi- gel created by humans , what did the rest of the galaxy use before humans came along and created it .
Citidal , specices have lived there for centuries ,no one ever tried to find out about the keepers where they came from how they are produced , the protheans were the only ones?
Banes . . . ? what was that whole story thread about . . . ?
The A.I. that stole the credits same as above. . . ?
This one is for me not sure if anyone else feels the same . . . Cerberus , I read the comic and all be it still doesn't expalain how Jack Harper went from being a merc working for the Alliance to being the head of a terrorist group and no one not say damn the Illusive man is Jack Harper that guy from the mercs that helped during the 1st contact war. . . ?
Why is there no record or pics drawings or something of what the Quarians looked like before they had to wear suits. . . ?
The 1st Geth that ask about his exsistance spoke , I thought geth didnt use speech or did they evolve from that state and use data transmission to speak , , , ?
You can go on and on with these its the same as with the ammo powers you just assume that it was upgraded at some point. . .no one is complaining about the where abouts of 10 different types of the same armour , guns ,omni tools or whatever else we had multipes of . . . you assume it was just upgraded , while everyone may not like the explaination its fact ammo powers are here to stay

[jasonsantanna]

didymos1120 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

I still want to know how the hell Immunity was supposed to work.  They didn't even bother coming up with some technobabble handwave.  It just sort of was.

So much for being more immersible compared to the other games.

ME1 has plenty of weirdness with its talents, if you think about them for half a second. Why does weapon training allow me magically reduce the amount of heat a pistol/AR produces while simultaneously firing much faster than normal?  Why does becoming a Spectre suddenly allow me to raise the dead?  What the hell is up with those "how to wear armor more better" skills anyway?  Why does studying First Aid make medi-gel work better?  Isn't that stuff supposed to just be a standard product? Why is Neural Shock part of Medicine exactly?  Also, how does that make Medi-gel cool down faster?  Wait...why would Medi-gel even have a cooldown timer?

The answer to them all, of course, is "Because it's a damn game, that's why."

thank you     

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...


ME1 has plenty of weirdness with its talents, if you think about them for half a second. Why does weapon training allow me magically reduce the amount of heat a pistol/AR produces while simultaneously firing much faster than normal?  Why does becoming a Spectre suddenly allow me to raise the dead?  What the hell is up with those "how to wear armor more better" skills anyway?  Why does studying First Aid make medi-gel work better?  Isn't that stuff supposed to just be a standard product? Why is Neural Shock part of Medicine exactly?  Also, how does that make Medi-gel cool down faster?  Wait...why would Medi-gel even have a cooldown timer?

The answer to them all, of course, is "Because it's a damn game, that's why."

One would think that could apply to ammo powers, but nope. Not according to this forum.

I personally don't really care, since there are real weapon modifications in ME3 that are way more practical than the ones in ME1.

The ammo powers are nothing more to me than "Hey, you're shooting fire/ice/lightning now!" just like they were in ME1. Only there, they took about half the game to actually be worth a damn.

[Bleachrude]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Because every omnitool doesn't have the exact same capabilities.

Otherwise, every tech power should be available to everyone since tech powers _ARE_ handled via the omni-tool....

Why wouldn't they all have the same capabilities? It can't be *that* hard to configure an omni-tool to use tech powers if half of the characters have that capability.

But really, this is where the http://tvtropes.org/...T3KMantra]MST3K mantra[/url] comes in handy. Mass Effect combat isn't exactly realistic hard SF.

Well, yeah I know that...but if we're trying to figure out why everyone doesn't have the same tech powers then the best I can think of is that not all omni-tools are created equally.

If you want to be true to lore, just say that the differences between omni-tools are like the difference between a Mac and a PC

[The Spamming Troll]

BlahDog wrote...

It's not a flaw that ME 2 made you use your class power a lot, your class power complemented the play-style of the class. The soldier just has to use his/her's more because it was the closest to an actual power other than concussive shot.

Well here's how I would have liked an ME2 Soldier Skill Tree:

Adrenaline Rush
Concussive Shot
Conditioning
(Increases Storm Speed/Boosts Melee Damage)-The problem with this is that ME is a cover shooter and allowing for running abilities sort of defeats the purpose of using cover.
Runner: Unlimited Sprint (Constant)
CQC:Knock enemies down with melee attack (Constant)
Endurance
(Incease Ammo Capacity/Increase Health)-Doing this would lessen the importance of adaptability because instead of being forced to switch to another weapon and use new tactics, when you run out of ammo you just spam this
Resupply: Omni-Tool creates spare Thermal Clip*
Hardened: Temporary Immunity to "stagger" effects-I don't remember getting staggered very much but this could be useful in the off chancce it happens
Gunner
(Increase Weapon Damage/Reduce Weapon Draw TIme)
Marksman: 2x Headshot Damage (Constant)-These could work as passive upgrades and it seems that this sort of thing is happening in ME 3
Support: 2x Damage vs Armor/Shields/Barrier (Constant)
Combat Mastery
(Increase Paragon/Renegade Scores and Power Duration)

See key problem is Combat Mastery takes cares of way too many "stats" and this is true for all classes I'd say. This skill tree is always a no-brainer to invest in, and you pretty much have to. There also probably should have been actual "Speech/Influence" skill, but that's just me.-I prefer that it is included because I really don't want to choose between combat effectiveness and my ability to make choices

*Would make more sense especially were friendly A.I. actually constrained by same rules as player. Sadly all A.I. has unlimited ammo.

to me, the OP singnature abilities can certainly be a flaw in class design. look at the adept and singularity. why use any other biotic ability, when singularity hugely overwhelms all the rest of them? i never wanted to play an adept, master of biotics, and only use one ability becasue its soooo much more effective then the rest. id assume the adept uses a cooldown on singularity equally as much as a soldier uses a cooldown on AR. i think its a bad design to make one ability trump the rest.

ME is a cover based shooter, sure. its also an RPG, a romacne sim, or whatever you want to label it. that doesnt mean we dont shoot outside of cover. thats a weak argument there.

in terms of switchin weapons, i dont want a gameplay mechanic that FORCES me to switch weapons. id rather use what weapon its the scenario, rather then have 11 sniper shots as an infiltrator. think about that for a second. they made a game, played it to find out its weaknesses, and came to the conclusion that you should only carry around 12 sniper bullets. thats how they are trying to challenge you in ME, by limiting exactly what your character stands for. they did ther same thing with the adept VS. enemy protections. but hopefully thats wasnt exactly intentional.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 17 décembre 2011 - 09:50 .

[RoboticWater]

The Spamming Troll wrote...


to me, the OP singnature abilities can certainly be a flaw in class design. look at the adept and singularity. why use any other biotic ability, when singularity hugely overwhelms all the rest of them? i never wanted to play an adept, master of biotics, and only use one ability becasue its soooo much more effective then the rest. id assume the adept uses a cooldown on singularity equally as much as a soldier uses a cooldown on AR. i think its a bad design to make one ability trump the rest.

ME is a cover based shooter, sure. its also an RPG, a romacne sim, or whatever you want to label it. that doesnt mean we dont shoot outside of cover. thats a weak argument there.

in terms of switchin weapons, i dont want a gameplay mechanic that FORCES me to switch weapons. id rather use what weapon its the scenario, rather then have 11 sniper shots as an infiltrator. think about that for a second. they made a game, played it to find out its weaknesses, and came to the conclusion that you should only carry around 12 sniper bullets. thats how they are trying to challenge you in ME, by limiting exactly what your character stands for. they did ther same thing with the adept VS. enemy protections. but hopefully thats wasnt exactly intentional.

If you're only using singularity then you're obviously not using good tactics. When I tell Jacob to use lift, iuse throw to meke then enemy fly or warp to blow them up. When an enemy is behind cover I use shockwave to bring them out. Basically any oothe time i have to use warp to take down enemy armor. So you can't say a good adept always spams singularity.

Using cover is a core gameplay element of Mass Effect and making an ability that lets you bypass that isn't the best idea. I'm not saying shooting outside of cover is a bad thing all the time but both of those abilities support the idea of running and gunning not run, shoot a few people and return to cover. These powers also present the devs with a bigger issue, making levels bigger. If you have the power to run around everywhere then the levels have to accomodate that. If all you have to run around in is a 50ft by 50ft room with cover strewn across the place.

Limiting ammo does make you switch weapons in certain scenarios. If people have a lot of ammo for a particular weapon, then they are more likely to stick with the one they've got than switch. If someone really likes their assult rife, they'll probably keep it equiped during a long ranged fight rather than pull out their sniper because they're used to their AR and it still has bullets.   

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

BlahDog wrote...

If you're only using singularity then you're obviously not using good tactics. When I tell Jacob to use lift, iuse throw to meke then enemy fly or warp to blow them up. When an enemy is behind cover I use shockwave to bring them out. Basically any oothe time i have to use warp to take down enemy armor. So you can't say a good adept always spams singularity.

I think what he's saying re: singularity is not that it obsoletes Warp, but that it obsoletes Throw, Pull, and Shockwave, in that it's a much better way of taking an unshielded enemy out of the fight. In terms of dealing with Pulled enemies, Warp does have its uses*, but if you want to throw them you're really better off shooting them and saving your cooldown.

Vanguard also has this issue - why would you want to use any power other than the magical teleport into shotgun range, stagger/send flying enemies, slow down time, and recover barrier button? I'm not complaining about Vanguard because Charge is really fun, but there is an actual issue with some of Shep's abilities being substantially better than others.

*Although it makes more sense to have Miranda/Thane/etc drop it instead of using Shep's cooldown if you have the option of doing so.

[Nashiktal]

Ammo as a power doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that ammo powers is what mostly makes up the soldiers skill tree.

If there was some way of just combining all the ammo skills into one tree, and then perhaps putting all the individual ammo powers as mods, that would make more sense to me.

For example leveling the ammo tree would increase the effects of the ammo powers themselves, maybe allow switching the ammo in the field, or other such MISC functions I would approve of them more.

The way it was in ME2, the only unique power the soldier got was adrenalin rush, and even then infiltrators got a lite version of it.

[Sidney]

didymos1120 wrote...
ME1 has plenty of weirdness with its talents, if you think about them for half a second. Why does weapon training allow me magically reduce the amount of heat a pistol/AR produces while simultaneously firing much faster than normal?  Why does becoming a Spectre suddenly allow me to raise the dead?  What the hell is up with those "how to wear armor more better" skills anyway?  Why does studying First Aid make medi-gel work better?  Isn't that stuff supposed to just be a standard product? Why is Neural Shock part of Medicine exactly?  Also, how does that make Medi-gel cool down faster?  Wait...why would Medi-gel even have a cooldown timer?

The answer to them all, of course, is "Because it's a damn game, that's why."

Yep, anytime you have "class limited skills" you get the stupid going. You either need insane explainations - cleric can use maces because they don't draw blood (snicker) but not swords. Mages can't wear armor at all ....oh and also can't use swords.

Ammo powers are silly but like you said no worse than "gun skills" (BTW what sort of super solider can't use onhe type of gun over another - something they have finally fixed it sounds like) and ahost of other stupid skills. Hell I give you Paragon and Renegade "skiills"...am I practicing being good now and now am more good-er?

[Nashiktal]

Its too late for this now, but it feels like Mass Effect would have really benefited from a "freeform" leveling mechanic in which you have a pool of skills to invest in.

[RoboticWater]

Nashiktal wrote...

Its too late for this now, but it feels like Mass Effect would have really benefited from a "freeform" leveling mechanic in which you have a pool of skills to invest in.

Unlike Skyrim, Mass Effect is more linear. You can't just say "I'm goning to wander over here with my gun drawn and hope that levels" and keep doing that with every other thing. The idea with this system is to give you ample opportunity to use all skills given to you for a more varied experience. And then take into account the fact that you choose a class to begin with and that leveling up guns with an adept isn't exactly a good idea.

Modifié par BlahDog, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:48 .

[Sidney]

Nashiktal wrote...

Its too late for this now, but it feels like Mass Effect would have really benefited from a "freeform" leveling mechanic in which you have a pool of skills to invest in.

You are referring to soemthing like SPECIAL in fallout? If so, yes that is the best character system because it doesn't have the stupidity of class skills nor the equally stupid "use it" approach of TES games.

[Someone With Mass]

Nashiktal wrote...
The way it was in ME2, the only unique power the soldier got was adrenalin rush, and even then infiltrators got a lite version of it.

It will be even more impersonal in ME3.

[The Spamming Troll]

Nashiktal wrote...

Its too late for this now, but it feels like Mass Effect would have really benefited from a "freeform" leveling mechanic in which you have a pool of skills to invest in.

i comletely agree.

bioware can keep its 6 classes, just dont impose preset abilities for each class. as an example, a sentinel should be half biotic/half tech, but allow the player to choose with tech and which biotics. if all the abilities are balanced against one another, then this shouldnt be a problem. itd be a perfect solution to makeing everyone happy, and probably an extremely easy way of doing it. its essentially the same change theyve made with weapons for ME3. instead of prescibing a vangaurd with only the SG, were allowed to take whatever weapon WE want. abilities should be no different.