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[Someone With Mass]

I thought the weapon skills in ME1 were mighty silly too, since they often involved a booster to aim, accuracy, rate of fire and damage. Two of which didn't really make sense, unless Shepard can somehow alter the efficiency of the weapons in a matter of seconds like that with almost no consequences.

[The Spamming Troll]

BlahDog wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...


in terms of how biowares reached its current status, id say too much critisism = removal of critisism.

"i dont like driving over jaggen mountians in the mako." = removal of the mako

"i dont like turning my abundance of pickups into omnigel." = removal of inventory

"i want a game that looks like gears of war." = removal of mass effect, from mass effect

1. Bioware knew that the mako was a bad idea a while after release because of the reviews, the fans only reinforced this with endless threads. They tried to appese the fans with the hammerhead but unfortunately received poorly despite its quality.

2. While removing this all together might have been a step too far, I think it was the right decision. Micromanagement and shooters don't go well together. As much as people like to think of ME being a full on RPG, it really isn't. It's not GoW and it's not KoTOR, it's a nice in between. IMO this it the best thing they removed from ME 1.

3. This is truely an opinion. Bioware made combat better IMO, not without a small loss but it made the game feel so much better.

1. replaceing one bad vehicle design with another is a bad idea all around. id say i perfer the hammerhead becasue of its maneuverability, but id rather not have a vehicle at all in my TPSs. im NEVER looking forward to vehicle segments in games. the lair of the shadow broker taxi ride is as far as id like to get with vehicles.

2. i like the whole scanning things to the normandy thing from ME2. its not like i dont like the bottomless pockets thing with RPGs i just think scanning to the normandy is more immersive. but then again im not sure where im storing all the medigel or spare ammo, so i guess its just not as bad as carrying 150 sets of armor. weapon benchs will most likely be a great addition tho.

3. combat is a small part of mass effect as a whole. when i brought up that comment, i wasnt even refering to the combat at all.

[RoboticWater]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

1. replaceing one bad vehicle design with another is a bad idea all around. id say i perfer the hammerhead becasue of its maneuverability, but id rather not have a vehicle at all in my TPSs. im NEVER looking forward to vehicle segments in games. the lair of the shadow broker taxi ride is as far as id like to get with vehicles.

2. i like the whole scanning things to the normandy thing from ME2. its not like i dont like the bottomless pockets thing with RPGs i just think scanning to the normandy is more immersive. but then again im not sure where im storing all the medigel or spare ammo, so i guess its just not as bad as carrying 150 sets of armor. weapon benchs will most likely be a great addition tho.

3. combat is a small part of mass effect as a whole. when i brought up that comment, i wasnt even refering to the combat at all.

1. I can see where you're coming from there but I like having some difference in gameplay here and there. Whether it is a vehicle section or a section where you coordinate a space battle, I don't want shooting to be the only gameplay I experience.

2. I though planet scanning wasn't terrible but could have had something to spice it up.

3. When you said GoW I immeadiately thought gameplay considering the similarities between the two combat-wise. Also it was the only thing that was completely changed from ME 1 to ME 2.  

[The Spamming Troll]

BlahDog wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

1. replaceing one bad vehicle design with another is a bad idea all around. id say i perfer the hammerhead becasue of its maneuverability, but id rather not have a vehicle at all in my TPSs. im NEVER looking forward to vehicle segments in games. the lair of the shadow broker taxi ride is as far as id like to get with vehicles.

2. i like the whole scanning things to the normandy thing from ME2. its not like i dont like the bottomless pockets thing with RPGs i just think scanning to the normandy is more immersive. but then again im not sure where im storing all the medigel or spare ammo, so i guess its just not as bad as carrying 150 sets of armor. weapon benchs will most likely be a great addition tho.

3. combat is a small part of mass effect as a whole. when i brought up that comment, i wasnt even refering to the combat at all.

1. I can see where you're coming from there but I like having some difference in gameplay here and there. Whether it is a vehicle section or a section where you coordinate a space battle, I don't want shooting to be the only gameplay I experience.

2. I though planet scanning wasn't terrible but could have had something to spice it up.

3. When you said GoW I immeadiately thought gameplay considering the similarities between the two combat-wise. Also it was the only thing that was completely changed from ME 1 to ME 2.  

this numbering thing is alot easy to make suggestions with!

1. oh boy. ME only offers shooter gameplay? what about dialogue, or exploration, or bangin alien chicks???

2. planet scanning needs more then a pinch of something. i never felt like planet scanning was exploration. it was more like spinning a ball in a circle and hitting A when my controller vibrated. idk man, if planet scanning is supposed to equal exploration, then id rather skip exploraton all together. planet scanning felt like a waste of my time, everytime.

3. no way dude! if ME2 only changed its combat from ME1, id be a happy ME2 fan. unfortunately combat wasnt the only thing ME2 didnt exactly follow through with in ME1s footsteps.

[jasonsantanna]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

1. replaceing one bad vehicle design with another is a bad idea all around. id say i perfer the hammerhead becasue of its maneuverability, but id rather not have a vehicle at all in my TPSs. im NEVER looking forward to vehicle segments in games. the lair of the shadow broker taxi ride is as far as id like to get with vehicles.

2. i like the whole scanning things to the normandy thing from ME2. its not like i dont like the bottomless pockets thing with RPGs i just think scanning to the normandy is more immersive. but then again im not sure where im storing all the medigel or spare ammo, so i guess its just not as bad as carrying 150 sets of armor. weapon benchs will most likely be a great addition tho.

3. combat is a small part of mass effect as a whole. when i brought up that comment, i wasnt even refering to the combat at all.

1. I can see where you're coming from there but I like having some difference in gameplay here and there. Whether it is a vehicle section or a section where you coordinate a space battle, I don't want shooting to be the only gameplay I experience.

2. I though planet scanning wasn't terrible but could have had something to spice it up.

3. When you said GoW I immeadiately thought gameplay considering the similarities between the two combat-wise. Also it was the only thing that was completely changed from ME 1 to ME 2.  

this numbering thing is alot easy to make suggestions with!

1. oh boy. ME only offers shooter gameplay? what about dialogue, or exploration, or bangin alien chicks???

2. planet scanning needs more then a pinch of something. i never felt like planet scanning was exploration. it was more like spinning a ball in a circle and hitting A when my controller vibrated. idk man, if planet scanning is supposed to equal exploration, then id rather skip exploraton all together. planet scanning felt like a waste of my time, everytime.

3. no way dude! if ME2 only changed its combat from ME1, id be a happy ME2 fan. unfortunately combat wasnt the only thing ME2 didnt exactly follow through with in ME1s footsteps.

Vehicle exploration can be done right if they to the time to work out the bugs, I don't understand why a system the way I expanded on earlier couldn't  be put into place , for those that don't want to explorer you just pic the shuttle , if you choose to explorer use hammerhead or mako . . . it works out for all parties

Same as with ammo powers they could give every class the use of it  just give the soldier  the ability to transform them into the grand form of the ammo , example with inferno ammo he could  level all the way to its best form while the other classes would only be able to use its lower form

[FoxShadowblade]

jasonsantanna wrote...

Vehicle exploration can be done right if they to the time to work out the bugs

It's called I shouldn't have to drive a six-wheeled tank with poor traction over the goddamn Alps.

Also, Ammo Powers as a skill = Better than items we have to gather.

[...And Justice For All]

i totally agree 100% with this, i was so angry the first time i played ME2, and found out that i had to "level" up to use a certain type of ammo. it should be reverted back to the way it was in ME1, where ammo mods, were actually ammo mods.

[DxWill10]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

As an Adept, I have to say that Warp Ammo seems strange if it's not performed by the gun. How exactly is a biotic able to apply a field to each and every one of those fast, small objects?

Dude, who cares?  Biotic bullets.

Seriously, you guys.  The bottom line is gameplay balance and ease of use.

With ammo powers, you can:

1. SEE which ammo types are active by glancing at the screen.

2. SWITCH between ammo types by pressing a button, as opposed to opening the menu and wasting your damn time putzin' around in your inventory WHEN YOU COULD BE SHOOTING THINGS.

3. CHOOSE how you want to level up your ammo, STRATEGIZING it along with your own and your squaddies' powers.

4. AVOID waiting for the game to drop more/better mods because you're in control of it yourself.

5. SKIP the boring-ass inventory piddling where you manage ALL the guns on ALL your squadmates.

GAMEPLAY BALANCE AND EASE OF USE.

This is why, from a game design perspective, ammo power are smarter than ammo mods.

(But being able to swap out mods on your guns is cool, which is why I'm glad some of that is coming back in ME3.)

Nicely put,  but futile :\\  Most can grasp this concept, but others are so stubborn they dont' want to see these things.
Personally, I don't find anything fun about spending as much time in my inventory as I am shooting.  Besides, what's fun about spamming Frictionless Materials in your gun?

Ammo powers ftw.

[moneycashgeorge]

DxWill10 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

As an Adept, I have to say that Warp Ammo seems strange if it's not performed by the gun. How exactly is a biotic able to apply a field to each and every one of those fast, small objects?

Dude, who cares?  Biotic bullets.

Seriously, you guys.  The bottom line is gameplay balance and ease of use.

With ammo powers, you can:

1. SEE which ammo types are active by glancing at the screen.

2. SWITCH between ammo types by pressing a button, as opposed to opening the menu and wasting your damn time putzin' around in your inventory WHEN YOU COULD BE SHOOTING THINGS.

3. CHOOSE how you want to level up your ammo, STRATEGIZING it along with your own and your squaddies' powers.

4. AVOID waiting for the game to drop more/better mods because you're in control of it yourself.

5. SKIP the boring-ass inventory piddling where you manage ALL the guns on ALL your squadmates.

GAMEPLAY BALANCE AND EASE OF USE.

This is why, from a game design perspective, ammo power are smarter than ammo mods.

(But being able to swap out mods on your guns is cool, which is why I'm glad some of that is coming back in ME3.)

Nicely put,  but futile :  Most can grasp this concept, but others are so stubborn they dont' want to see these things.
Personally, I don't find anything fun about spending as much time in my inventory as I am shooting.  Besides, what's fun about spamming Frictionless Materials in your gun?

Ammo powers ftw.

Well I can't speak for everyone, but I agree with Cheez's points about the advantages of ammo powers. Thing is, there's no reason they can't keep all those advantages and still give classes more skills. As is, Ammo Powers are just filler powers. Every class should really have at least twice as many powers as they do.

I find it interesting how whenever people criticize ME1, they point out little flaws as if they are evidence the whole system is broken. I only ever hear people talk about "climbing the Alps" in the Mako, never saying there is a problem with vehicle sections. I only ever hear people talking about Frictionless Materials, never making points against inventories and weapon mods.

These are all small problems that could have been easily smoothed out if they had kept developing the same systems. It's really ridiculous that people act like these flaws and exploits somehow negate the value of the whole mechanic.

[Random citizen]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Its just a gameplay thing to allow the soldier to have a bit of variety in their play-style, and to allow other classes to have a wider variety of powers without getting overpowered. Having overload and incinerate, for example, would be overpowered for infiltrators but giving them overload ammo instead of the overload power gives them a weaker version of the power, allowing more variety without compromising on balance.

Yes, from a lore point of view it doesn't make sense but I can overlook that because, as a game, sometimes the gameplay needs to take priority.

Failure to integrate Lore and gameplay is what seperates the bad and mediocre from the great.
Not caring about such things is pretty much an "Ed woodian" attitude.

Most of the gameplay does respect the lore in some capacity but at some point you have to take a step back and realise that it is videogame. 

Just like I said, "Ed-woodian". ("its just a movie")

[Random citizen]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

I liked the ammo variety introduced in ME1, disliked having to sift through 100 different varieties and level types each time I stepped into combat. In ME2 it was better, just push a button on the gun, charge the ammo with properties and pew-pew. I assume that each gun is only capable of storing a few varieties of ammo additives. Hence why you had to choose ahead of time. Though it got kinda silly having to "train" and retrain to use a specific ammo type like warp ammo.

So yeah, ammo as a skill is just silly. This is essentially what happens when you try and take an RPG role model, based upon Dungeons and Dragons (medieval), and slap it onto a future Sci-Fi context. Same with looting bodies, just silly.

The problem was of course the 100 different varieties and level types coupled with low weapon damage relative to health and crazy inventories that did not only allow you to carry more then a fully loaded truck, but also allowed for making instantaneous changes to weapon and armor during combat.

[SNascimento]

I don't know if I have already said this in this topic, but ammo powers were of the best ideas implemented in Mass Effect 2, for reason already stated by AdmiralCheez.
.
Ammo powers > Ammo mods, by light years.

[jasonsantanna]

I dont mind the ammo powers since I play as soldier most the time any way but I do understand from a game play view it help smooth it combat and gave the soldier some powers since most of his powers from ME1 to ME2 had been consolidated into his passive power or AR. . . But when you think about it everyone keeps saying ammo powers should be allowed for everyone . . . .everyone has an omni tool , so should all parties have access to the engineers powers too since they are omni tool based. . . ? Most of the engineers attack powers are the same or similar to soldiers ammo powers . . . .

[crimzontearz]

BlahDog wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
truth is that unless people make it clear that certain "artistic" or gameplay choices are not OK because they make some of us feel like we are being treated like guillable drooling idiots who can't possibly find, for instance, certain attire situationally ridiculous (seriously....nipple belt in combat??) then the why would they even consider ever more than droling idiots?

no criticism = no improvement

You treat your opinion like fact when it clearly isn't. You are entitled to your opinion and I approve of constructive criticism but most of the changes you oppose are supported by many people including the majority of professional reviewers. I agree that there were some things in ME 2 that were bad ideas but they never destroyed the game for me.

Bioware has actually proved time and again that they respect their fan base by implementing many of the things that we have asked. maybe they were not the things that you wanted but they don't think of us as foolish little children who have no idea what they're ralking about.  

Also, Jack's rebellious clothing, or lack ther of, is a portrayal of her character. Even if she is fighting a galactic war she has to stick it to the man.  

If you ever read my threads about how bioware listens to fans you would know I firmly believe bioware listens hence why I support criticism and disapprove of the BDF who simply write everything off as people whining and bioware being infallible. The Miranda's appearance pack and the weapons packs are proof of that (as well as Ashley's armor in me3)

Jack can stay in character as much as she wants....yet given lore and whatnot her attire would get her killed in minutes....which given the fact her character aggrivates me I would be 100% OK with. For them to accept her "unique look"and plaster it in one game while rectifying the issue in the next one then either

1: they thought we were idiots thus we would not care or question it
2: they did not care and just wanted to cater to a new crowd

criticism is needed to make sure the same thought process does not make it to future games

[Arcadian Legend]

It's a little too late to change the ammo powers now don't you think?

[Tup3x]

Stephenc13 wrote...

 does anyone else agree?
unless I'm really late and uninformed about ammo powers

I think that instead of making different Ammo types through skills, it should be weapon modifications like in ME1
It just makes more sense like that.

Since there will be an inventory system, wouldn't it be better this way?

I totally agree. I hated that thing in ME2.

[eye basher]

Ammo powers is faster one button and that's it besides it pisses off the haters and that's okay in my book.

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

I don't know if I have already said this in this topic, but ammo powers were of the best ideas implemented in Mass Effect 2, for reason already stated by AdmiralCheez.
.
Ammo powers > Ammo mods, by light years.

Though I greatly respect AdmiralCheez and her ability to be a voice of calm and insight, I cannot accept this.
My argument is not for optics, scram rails or actual, physical, alterations but the ammo used.  The physical alts should require a workbench as they must be attached/adjusted. (Stated to be clear about
what I'm referring to)

In ME1, weapons mods were taking out a magazine of standard rounds and inserting a magazine of specialty rounds.  This is something any person, at almost any age, can do.  And in the game, could be links to 2 or 3 keys where the different magazines would be stored (chosen during pre-mission screen.

In ME2, weapons now function through the magic of a power that, though force of will???, the weapon changes abilities.  Abilities are now restricted to who is on your team.  This absolutely makes no sense. 

Sorry. 
No argument can be made to justify this purely game limiting reason. 
It hurts gameplay as it makes a believable system something unbelievable. 
I know the game will not change and that I'm stuck with this assinine method of using mods but I do not have to sit quietly by and not voice my opinion.

Ammo powers do not limit gameplay, if anything they broadens it. Before soldiers had a bunch of lame health and damage skills. Now soldiers have some active abilitties which promote adaptive play styles. Sure, biotics don't have access to ammo powers anymore but that is because Bioware wanted them to use their powers more and rely less on their guns. And anything that keeps me out of an inentory screen and is always a good plan in my book.

Ammo powers don't hurt the gameplay at all. They are almost exactly the same as using mods from an inentory screen except you need to activate them at the beginning of every mission. And as I said before they promote actively changing your ammo mod because there is no need to open an inventory to change anything, all you have to do is go to the power wheel or press a hotkey.

While the may be less believable, ammo powers did improve the gameplay at least in my eyes (and a pretty good percentage of BSN members). There really isn't much more to say about that but Shepard doesn't magically change the ammo, he probably adds some modifier to the gun that affects the projectile output (this is probably a lame excuse but gamplay always comes before lore).   

 

Modifié par BlahDog, 17 décembre 2011 - 01:28 .

[SNascimento]

wow, saying ammo powers limited gameplay is as wrong as a statement can be,.. it's the exact opposite of right.

[crimzontearz]

not to mention that other, more fitting, powers could have replaced them....

[Someone With Mass]

Ammo powers in ME3 gives a lot more options too.

[Someone With Mass]

crimzontearz wrote...

not to mention that other, more fitting, powers could have replaced them....

Like what?

Most classes already have enough powers in ME3.

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

It limits gameplay.
In ME1, all I needed was the mod and any character, any weapon, and more importantly, any squad makeup could use the mod.
In ME2, if I don't have a squad member with cryo or any of the other 'magic powers' it cannot be used.
Sure seems like limiting to me.

Limiting in a good way though. In ME 1 biotics never really had to rely on their powers if they had a weapon with some good mods. ME 2 forced biotics to utilize their powers more often because their gun isn't powerful enough to kill enemies by itself.