It's a question that I often see under debate in these forums. Some calims are good and make sense, others are of course ludicrous
Dragon age: Origins is sometimes under the accusation of being a High Fantasy setting. I do not see where these accusations originate from really. It's obsured!
I think people take the word 'dark' and transform it in a literal sense. The world doesn't have to be 'dark' in that sense. The word 'dark' in Dark Fantasy is merely a title, and shouldn't be taken literal at all. Infact there is a world for that, and it's 'Gothic.'
So what is Dark Fantasy? In my view, I see it as a way of bringing our morals into a fantasy setting. So there isn't only grey, but black and white too. There are the good, there are the bad, and there are the 'don't give a ****s.' These moral views are presented neatly in Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2.
There are, of course, other examples that we can analyse. The Witcher, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion... all these belong to the Dark Fantasy category in some way or another, and some lean towards it more than others.
Think of this as a scale, like friendship and rivalry. We have High fantasy on one side and Gothic on the other. In between we have all the other categories I can't really be arsed to write down. Some will fall into Dark fantasy but lean towards the High Fantasy setting also (Tolkien's books.) Others will lean to Gothic (A Song of Ice and Fire/The Witcher.) We can't really say for sure if anything is EXACTLY Dark Fantasy for they all have their different ways at approaching it.
Dragon Age would be Dark Fantasy leaning towards Heroic fantasy. The Forgotten Realms and Planescape setting will also fall into the same category.
So Dark Fantasy is something that we would put in the centre of that scale I believe, and when people write about it, they will always lean to one side more than the other.
But this is my opinion. For you, what exactly makes Dark Fantasy? Is it as I have said? Moral values from our world set into a fantasy world? Or is more towards 'Gothic' style works. And note when I say Gothic I mean the 'style' not the game.
What makes Dark Fantasy exactly...Dark?
Débuté par
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, déc. 13 2011 01:14
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#2
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 01:44
jbrand2002uk
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I view Dark Fantasy as stories set in a fantasy world/universe that try to explore the line between what society would see as moral/immoral exploring themes that were once or still are considered taboo subjects in some corners of the world
#3
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 01:46
whykikyouwhy
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When I think of "dark fantasy" I think of the "dark rides" at Disneyland - Snow White, Pinnocchio, etc. Rides of tales that have happy endings, but go down twists and turns of the human psyche - they address fears and present them as tangible foes. So I see dark fantasy in that vein, but usually with the added bonus of *not* having that warm and fuzzy and tidy ride off into the sunset, happily ever after at the end. DF (abbreviating out of laziness) is about the struggle in a turbulent setting.
I'm not keen on tagging fantasy though, in general. There are many areas where something considered HF or DF overlap into the other realm. HF makes me think of gleaming castles and very glossy Arthurian tales, but even the Arthurian legends dealt with darker, grittier themes.
So, much like qualifying or quantifying what an RPG is, I think how fantasy is defined or categorized follows the same track. It's all about perspective and some expectation. I personally don't want to be focusing on the degrees by which something is dark, high or what have you (because I don't think there is a right answer with such a vague measuring scale). But, if pressed, I feel that DF covers conflict and struggle, and has the hero/protagonist sometimes making mistakes or falling to misfortune. It's perhaps more about the hero's journey versus the riches obtained along with the keys to the kingdom.
I'm not keen on tagging fantasy though, in general. There are many areas where something considered HF or DF overlap into the other realm. HF makes me think of gleaming castles and very glossy Arthurian tales, but even the Arthurian legends dealt with darker, grittier themes.
So, much like qualifying or quantifying what an RPG is, I think how fantasy is defined or categorized follows the same track. It's all about perspective and some expectation. I personally don't want to be focusing on the degrees by which something is dark, high or what have you (because I don't think there is a right answer with such a vague measuring scale). But, if pressed, I feel that DF covers conflict and struggle, and has the hero/protagonist sometimes making mistakes or falling to misfortune. It's perhaps more about the hero's journey versus the riches obtained along with the keys to the kingdom.
#4
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 01:49
Dominus
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"Dark fantasy is a term used to describe a fantasy story with a pronounced horror element. A strict definition for dark fantasy is difficult to pin down. Gertrude Barrows Bennett has been called "the woman who invented dark fantasy". Both Charles L. Grant and Karl Edward Wagner are credited with having coined the actual term "dark fantasy"—although both authors were describing different styles of fiction. Additionally, other authors, critics, and publishers have adopted dark fantasy to describe various other works. However, these stories rarely share universal similarities beyond supernatural occurrences and a dark, often brooding, tone. As a result, dark fantasy cannot be solidly connected to a defining set of tropes. The term itself may refer collectively to tales that are either horror-based or fantasy-based."
My Source.
My Source.
#5
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 02:00
LinksOcarina
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The above is pretty accurate if it's taken literally.
Dragon Age was never a real dark fantasy in that regard, although there were a few horror-like elements in Origins and Dragon Age II.
I kind of classify the two games as a more grounded fantasy; this is the real world with magic and monsters in it if that makes sense. High Fantasy implies a universal force of evil and good, Mary sues fighting the dark forces in an epic, sweeping battle.
But as we have seen, all sides in the conflicts in both game are far from black and white. So there is more dynamism to the way stories can be told. So the label is kind of unimportant, what is important is how the story is told, and this is where Dragon Age separates itself from other fantasy settings.
Dragon Age was never a real dark fantasy in that regard, although there were a few horror-like elements in Origins and Dragon Age II.
I kind of classify the two games as a more grounded fantasy; this is the real world with magic and monsters in it if that makes sense. High Fantasy implies a universal force of evil and good, Mary sues fighting the dark forces in an epic, sweeping battle.
But as we have seen, all sides in the conflicts in both game are far from black and white. So there is more dynamism to the way stories can be told. So the label is kind of unimportant, what is important is how the story is told, and this is where Dragon Age separates itself from other fantasy settings.
#6
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 02:13
RPGamer13
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Don't know, but I can give you examples of game I would consider Dark Fantasy:
Demon's Souls
Dark Souls
Neverdead (it's not out yet, but it's coming out next year)
Eternal Poison
Catherine
Demon's Souls
Dark Souls
Neverdead (it's not out yet, but it's coming out next year)
Eternal Poison
Catherine
#7
Guest_liesandpropaganda_*
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 02:33
Guest_liesandpropaganda_*
Guest_liesandpropaganda_*
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death and despair
#8
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 02:51
Teddie Sage
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Death, despair, horror situations that ACTUALLY creep out the players. The "dark fantasy" in Dragon Age is mostly a misleading thing to say: This stuff is not for kids.
#9
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 03:12
RinpocheSchnozberry
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Dark fantasy is how you market children's stories to adults. That's pretty much it. There's nothing in any dark fantasy that isn't found in the Grimm brother books.
Calling fantasy dark lets people with neck beards buy children's books and still wear skinny jeans with what they consider to be pride.
Calling fantasy dark lets people with neck beards buy children's books and still wear skinny jeans with what they consider to be pride.
#10
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 03:23
Uccio
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I see it also includes "reality" a la TW2. Living landscape and down to earth colours which can turn into rainy, muddy and gray. Murder and mayheim, despair and death. A world where heroes and their friends die horribly and sometimes without reason (caused by something unexpected). Kind of like the world in George R.R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire". Bright pastel colours with anime characters like in DA2 do not belong there.
Modifié par Ukki, 13 décembre 2011 - 06:08 .
#11
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 03:33
vania z
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Lord of the Rings is a classical High Fantasy, as forgotten realms are.
#12
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 03:41
alex90c
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"when you press a button, something awesome has to happen" is not dark fantasy.
#13
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 03:54
Realmzmaster
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Neither DAO nor DA2 would be considered dark fantasy. There are two definitions: one by Charles Grant who was a horror writer and the other by Karl Wagner a fantasy writer. Grant described dark fantasy as a type of horror story in which humanity is threaten by forces beyond human understanding. Wagner states that dark fantasy is fiction that features an anti-heroic or morally ambiguous protagonist.
The term has no clear cut tropes that you can assign to it. You can have dark fantasy in a multi-colored bright world and high fantasy in a dull, drab blue and gray world. It depends on the story being told and the type of protagonist.
The term has no clear cut tropes that you can assign to it. You can have dark fantasy in a multi-colored bright world and high fantasy in a dull, drab blue and gray world. It depends on the story being told and the type of protagonist.
#14
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 03:56
Realmzmaster
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alex90c wrote...
"when you press a button, something awesome has to happen" is not dark fantasy.
Exactly, which is why DAO nor DA2 are dark fantasy. DAO and DA2 are more high fantasy, like most cRPGs
#15
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 04:56
schalafi
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I would say George R.R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series comes as close to dark fantasy as I understand it. Also Neil Gaiman's "American Gods", and "Neverwhere" are considered dark fantasy, and we can't forget some of Stephen King's works. Alongside of these examples, I don't consider either Origins or DA2 true dark fantasies. They are more "high fantasy" than dark.
#16
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 05:21
Gunderic
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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Dark fantasy is how you market children's stories to adults. That's pretty much it. There's nothing in any dark fantasy that isn't found in the Grimm brother books.
Calling fantasy dark lets people with neck beards buy children's books and still wear skinny jeans with what they consider to be pride.
trolling? Some of Grimm's collected fairy tails are really dark and would never be shown to children unedited in their original versions.
#17
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 05:25
Gunderic
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Realmzmaster wrote...
Neither DAO nor DA2 would be considered dark fantasy. There are two definitions: one by Charles Grant who was a horror writer and the other by Karl Wagner a fantasy writer. Grant described dark fantasy as a type of horror story in which humanity is threaten by forces beyond human understanding. Wagner states that dark fantasy is fiction that features an anti-heroic or morally ambiguous protagonist.
I like those definitions.
#18
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 05:44
maxernst
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Gunderic wrote...
Realmzmaster wrote...
Neither DAO nor DA2 would be considered dark fantasy. There are two definitions: one by Charles Grant who was a horror writer and the other by Karl Wagner a fantasy writer. Grant described dark fantasy as a type of horror story in which humanity is threaten by forces beyond human understanding. Wagner states that dark fantasy is fiction that features an anti-heroic or morally ambiguous protagonist.
I like those definitions.
The Wagner one is closer to the current commercial usage, but since we control the character of the protagonist in the DA games it can't really be applied to the DA games. However, in part because not all fiction has a protagonist, the dark label has been applied more liberally than that. A Song of Ice and Fire, is often characterized and dark fantasy and has no real protagonist. It does however have morally ambiguous characters in general and a gritty (verging on crapsack) world in which bad things happen to good people. And I don't think the DA games are too far off that. High Fantasy is characterized by clear-cut good vs evil conflict, but while the Darkspawn are certainly evil, regardless of your particular protagonist, the Grey Wardens are not paragons of goodness. And the DA2 conflict isn't good vs evil, either.
#19
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 07:21
Kreid
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Well aside from the typical stuff (magic, realms of existence, gods, etc...) that separates dark fantasy from high fantasy, the former usually involves themes BioWare wouldn't dare to touch given the status of media and industry today.
For a very obvious reference look at "A song of Ice and Fire" and all the adult themes it includes that are lacking in most fantasy games (only CDprojekt tackles some of them directly and not all) so in the end we get a very tame dark fantasy setting with obvious high fantasy touches like the fade.
For a very obvious reference look at "A song of Ice and Fire" and all the adult themes it includes that are lacking in most fantasy games (only CDprojekt tackles some of them directly and not all) so in the end we get a very tame dark fantasy setting with obvious high fantasy touches like the fade.
Modifié par Creid-X, 13 décembre 2011 - 07:23 .
#20
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 07:31
Atakuma
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Dark fantasy is just a marketing gimmick for games, usually it just means some combination of violence, sex or swearing.
#21
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 07:40
Wulfram
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Dragon Age is Dark Heroic Fantasy. Which means High Fantasy, but embarrassed about it.
#22
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 07:47
billy the squid
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Atakuma wrote...
Dark fantasy is just a marketing gimmick for games, usually it just means some combination of violence, sex or swearing.
Or it can can deal with things such as rape, social prejudice and stigmatism, xenophobia, racism, racial superiority ideology, genocide, enforced social stratification reflective of actual medieval europe, disease, death mutilation, torture, assassination and politics etc. The more nitty gritty aspects of society. So no it's not just marketing.
If these are dealt with properly then yes they would be a portrayal of the more adult and rather grim aspects of life. Tip toe around it and no, it's not a dark fantasy at all. DAO and DA2 did this, it wasn't a dark fantasy, it had a few bits and pieces but shied away from anything too explicit or serious, despite what marketing said, it was a high fantasy. TW2 comes closest so far.
#23
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 08:04
Pzykozis
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I tend to blur the lines between dark fantasy and postmodern, labels are fairly useless anyway.
Buut, I can point out two very good examples of what I'd consider dark/postmodern that is Abercrombie's First Law trilogy and Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, I have to say I've never gotten on well with Martin's Ice and Fire, mostly because for me it has a distinct lack of believeability (different topic also I know a lot of people like that series more power to them) it certainly has elements of postmodern techniques about it but doesn't deconstruct and ground itself enough or possibly it does deconstruct too much and in the deconstruction loses its grounding.
So.. what makes dark fantasy.. well to be honest for me its the sense of having human characters with human flaws, even if you have an evil character you can still have dark fantasy, you can have black and white aslong as it makes sense... moustache twirling destroy the world evil forces are not really part of that.
It's having a world that doesn't swing too far to any extreme, grim dark is generally funny in its over exaggeration, other end of the scale is lofty and hoity toity. Basically a world where people prey on others but not to the extent where "good" characters are hilariously unable to retain life, machinations and secrets abound, where politics and words can be as powerful as an army.
Dragon age for me though I love the series clings abit too much to the heroic and aesthetically whilst there's no demand that a particular artstyle is required for a sub-genre doesn't particularly match up with the mud blisters and warts sort of thing.
I'm probably wrong though.
Buut, I can point out two very good examples of what I'd consider dark/postmodern that is Abercrombie's First Law trilogy and Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, I have to say I've never gotten on well with Martin's Ice and Fire, mostly because for me it has a distinct lack of believeability (different topic also I know a lot of people like that series more power to them) it certainly has elements of postmodern techniques about it but doesn't deconstruct and ground itself enough or possibly it does deconstruct too much and in the deconstruction loses its grounding.
So.. what makes dark fantasy.. well to be honest for me its the sense of having human characters with human flaws, even if you have an evil character you can still have dark fantasy, you can have black and white aslong as it makes sense... moustache twirling destroy the world evil forces are not really part of that.
It's having a world that doesn't swing too far to any extreme, grim dark is generally funny in its over exaggeration, other end of the scale is lofty and hoity toity. Basically a world where people prey on others but not to the extent where "good" characters are hilariously unable to retain life, machinations and secrets abound, where politics and words can be as powerful as an army.
Dragon age for me though I love the series clings abit too much to the heroic and aesthetically whilst there's no demand that a particular artstyle is required for a sub-genre doesn't particularly match up with the mud blisters and warts sort of thing.
I'm probably wrong though.
#24
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 08:22
Giltspur
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I think the labels are unimportant. Dragon Age doesn't need to be dark fantasy or heroic fantasy: it just needs to be good fantasy.
As it pertains to gaming, I think that means having choices that each have their pros and cons. And it means having antagonists (like Loghain and Arishok) that have a believable, identifiable motivation. It means not ignoring all of the broken things that make up the world. Fantasy shouldn't be just about reporting humanity's successes; it should also document its failures and tragedies. That's what I like about stories like Song of Ice and Fire. And DA tries to do those same things. (Though I think it has sometimes not gone far enough. Act I in Dragon Age II could be more desperate for example. You could feel the pain of being a refugee and that could inform tough decisions. A missed opportunity for DA2, I think.)
What about traditional ways of thinking about dark fantasy? Dragon Age, especially Origins, does have horror elements with the pulsating darkspawn and stuff with broodmothers and haunted orphanages. But that wasn't the core of the game: it was lore and side quests. And the warden certainly wasn't an anti-hero. Even if you thought of him that way, he still did heroic things. So yeah it's not dark fantasy in the senses people tend to talk about.
But I do like darkness in my fantasy since mere escapism feels less substantive. That said, the art in DAII is a letdown here as the darkspawn are no longer dark so much as they're sickly. I miss them wearing bones and having traps made of pointy sticks. Before they were Vlad the Impaler's forces. Now they're more Farscape and Flash Gordon. So they don't add to the darker feel that DAO could have. I mean, I could imagine the soldiers and families being fearful as the darkspawn moved towards their city in DAO. Those cinematics in the battles conveyed more dread.
As it pertains to gaming, I think that means having choices that each have their pros and cons. And it means having antagonists (like Loghain and Arishok) that have a believable, identifiable motivation. It means not ignoring all of the broken things that make up the world. Fantasy shouldn't be just about reporting humanity's successes; it should also document its failures and tragedies. That's what I like about stories like Song of Ice and Fire. And DA tries to do those same things. (Though I think it has sometimes not gone far enough. Act I in Dragon Age II could be more desperate for example. You could feel the pain of being a refugee and that could inform tough decisions. A missed opportunity for DA2, I think.)
What about traditional ways of thinking about dark fantasy? Dragon Age, especially Origins, does have horror elements with the pulsating darkspawn and stuff with broodmothers and haunted orphanages. But that wasn't the core of the game: it was lore and side quests. And the warden certainly wasn't an anti-hero. Even if you thought of him that way, he still did heroic things. So yeah it's not dark fantasy in the senses people tend to talk about.
But I do like darkness in my fantasy since mere escapism feels less substantive. That said, the art in DAII is a letdown here as the darkspawn are no longer dark so much as they're sickly. I miss them wearing bones and having traps made of pointy sticks. Before they were Vlad the Impaler's forces. Now they're more Farscape and Flash Gordon. So they don't add to the darker feel that DAO could have. I mean, I could imagine the soldiers and families being fearful as the darkspawn moved towards their city in DAO. Those cinematics in the battles conveyed more dread.
#25
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 09:13
Maria Caliban
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Dark fantasy is fantasy with horror elements.
It's not the same as fantasy that the reader finds 'dark' due to a grim and gritty setting, moral ambiguity, anti-heroes, or other elements. That's just... regular fantasy fiction. High fantasy, low fantasy, epic fantasy, sword and sorcery all can have 'dark' elements to some degree.
Take the Kurshiel's Dart trilogy, it has graphic scenes with the heroine being anally raped with a metal spike, having her skin flayed off, and a hot poker applied to her inner thigh. It's generally categorized as high fantasy or historic fantasy, but I've seen some people refer to it as romantic fantasy.
No one calls it Dark Fantasy because the expectation is that most work written for adults may have 'dark' or mature elements.
Likewise, you can look at Micheal Moorcock's work. Elric of Melnibone was a dark, angsty fantasy anti-hero over fifty years ago. But even though his work is as dark (and even darker at time) than Dragon Age, it's classified as sword and sorcery.
It's not the same as fantasy that the reader finds 'dark' due to a grim and gritty setting, moral ambiguity, anti-heroes, or other elements. That's just... regular fantasy fiction. High fantasy, low fantasy, epic fantasy, sword and sorcery all can have 'dark' elements to some degree.
Take the Kurshiel's Dart trilogy, it has graphic scenes with the heroine being anally raped with a metal spike, having her skin flayed off, and a hot poker applied to her inner thigh. It's generally categorized as high fantasy or historic fantasy, but I've seen some people refer to it as romantic fantasy.
No one calls it Dark Fantasy because the expectation is that most work written for adults may have 'dark' or mature elements.
Likewise, you can look at Micheal Moorcock's work. Elric of Melnibone was a dark, angsty fantasy anti-hero over fifty years ago. But even though his work is as dark (and even darker at time) than Dragon Age, it's classified as sword and sorcery.
Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 décembre 2011 - 09:21 .
