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[Il Divo]

simfamSP wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

The movie scream doesn't scare me but technically it is a horror film (ok a slasher film but you get my point.) Horror elements (in my opinion) are things that are in a general sesne 'scary.' Vampires, ghosts, ghouls all have to do with Legacy of Kain. These are in general 'horrific' monsters, thus they relate to the term 'Dark Fantasy.'

You have to take things in context here :-)

I'm not certain I entirely agree with that. I won't dispute that vampires tend to find themselves used in scary movies, but I think the tone is substantially more important in identifying the horror genre. It's possible to make a horror film using elements which avoid vampires/supernatural creatures, relying entirely on a "real" setting. And in the opposite way, you can have vampires/zombies in a film that most would not consider scary. Ex: Blade, Zombieland, which are an action movie and comedy respectively.

With respect to that, Legacy of Kain doesn't really treat the content in the way which a scary movie would. Kain is essentially a superpowered Vampire going around murdering people. I still consider dark fantasy (since we're all using our own variations on the term), but not simply because vampires are present.

I was using them as examples, if I were to go into further depth then once again we'd have a whole lot of sub-categories to cover no?

Without a doubt. I'm okay with going more in depth if you are.

[Il Divo]

simfamSP wrote...

But the genre doesn't really need to be horrifying to the person in order to be called 'horror.' As Maria and I said: the reason LOK can be called horror is because of the horrific content within it.

The Broodmother was a horrific monster, thus it fits within the element of horror.

With all due respect, I disagree. The Broodmoother was a horror monster, but the entire sequence was also handled in the style of horror, building fear of the unknown, psychological trauma, etc. I consider horror to be about presentation, as opposed to being about the existence of a supernatural creature. The "threat" of the Broodmoother was intentionally built up in a style that the player might find himself somewhat afraid to continue (which may or may not have worked).

To use the earlier example, vampires may be a creature typically found in and associated with the horror genre, but if they are not handled with a certain style, I wouldn't consider the genre "horror". I wouldn't consider Legacy of Kain to be horror because vampires are the subject matter. By placing the player in the role of the "monster", LoK is featuring a style very different from other works of the genre. The intention seems to be for the audience to find Kain morally despicable more than it is for them to fear him, especially since we're often presented with Kain's thought process through soliloquy.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:26 .

[Il Divo]

simfamSP wrote...
You first, I'm tired tonight

Ok I'll start with some low-fantasy Vampire themed novel... Twilight.

The darkest of the dark fantasy.

[Ophir147]

Dark Fantasy

Because Tv Tropes is the goddamn best, and I love linking to it if I know that someone else will begin browsing it.  Oh, and it will ruin your life. 

Modifié par Ophir147, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

Il Divo wrote...

But bearing in mind that we are playing the monster, not running in fear of him. I consider that an important distinction. I wouldn't place Legacy of Kain in horror the way I (for example) would place Alan Wake, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Call of Cthulhu, the Shining, etc. Horror, the way I typically interpret it, refers specifically to making the player/viewer/protagonist feel vulnerable through fear of physical or psychological pain.

Kain is great, but the material is never presented in a manner to scare the player. Sure, there might be a few gruesome deaths, crucifixions, etc. But the description you provide is more how I would describe dark fantasy, as opposed to horror.

Before Urban Fantasy became big, I recall a few horror novels told from the POV of the vampire/werewolf. I know 'By Blood We Live' and 'Horror Anthology: The Year’s Best Dark Fantasy and Horror 2010' both had short stories from the POV of what we'd call the 'monster' in a classic horror story.

I think 'The Tell-Tale Heart' would also qualify if it were published today.

I'd consider it a very small sub-genre. It's hard to sustain a horror novel from the perspective of the bad guy as it tends to suck out the mystery and many people find it hard to enjoy a story from that angle.

Ophir147 wrote...

Dark Fantasy

Because Tv Tropes is the goddamn best, and I love linking to it if I know that someone else will begin browsing it.  Oh, and it will ruin your life. 

If I were going to name that particular sub-genre, I'd call it fantasy punk.

Cyberpunk, after all, was the shift from presumable 'happy' sci-fi tales* to grim, gritty, and cynical - often distopian - novels.

*A bit of historical revisionism on the part of the cyberpunk crowd.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:50 .

[Il Divo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Before Urban Fantasy became big, I recall a few horror novels told from the POV of the vampire/werewolf. I know 'By Blood We Live' and 'Horror Anthology: The Year’s Best Dark Fantasy and Horror 2010' both had short stories from the POV of what we'd call the 'monster' in a classic horror story.

I think 'The Tell-Tale Heart' would also qualify if it were published today.

I'd consider it a very small sub-genre. It's hard to sustain a horror novel from the perspective of the bad guy as it tends to suck out the mystery and many people find it hard to enjoy a story from that angle.

I wouldn't disagree with The Telltale Heart. There's also other examples, like American Psycho or The Cask of Amontillado, which focus on delivering the tale from the "bad guy" perspective.

But if I were to expand on my earlier point, I do think it's that issue of presentation which limits the "horror factor". Take, for example, Soul Reaver 2's intro:



A great scene, one of my favorites in gaming, but there's not much there that strikes me as a typical horror element (assuming we ignore the Vampire). And to conclude, that's really my issue with LoK as a horror story; so much of the story-telling is focused on a narrative that doesn't really place the viewer in a fearful frame of mind, but seems more the style of a well-told drama. It certainly doesn't have that same sense of dread as the Telltale Heart or similar works.  

My claim that you can't give us the monster's perspective was way too hasty, it's simply not as common.

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 décembre 2011 - 12:03 .

[Bayz]

simfamSP wrote...

But the genre doesn't really need to be horrifying to the person in order to be called 'horror.' As Maria and I said: the reason LOK can be called horror is because of the horrific content within it.

The Broodmother was a horrific monster, thus it fits within the element of horror.

Really? I thought it was hawt. If Leliana would have been there as well, you'd see my character giving that chubby babe some love all night long.

[mousestalker]

What makes dark fantasy dark are the same elements that make dark chocolate dark. Less sugar and milk are in both. A lot of people think that no nuts makes them dark, but that is an error.

[Chun Hei]

Little Pony avatars. That has to be part of a dark and sinister plot.

[congealeddgtllvr]

mousestalker wrote...
A lot of people think that no nuts makes them dark, but that is an error.

Maybe not, but it does make them better.  Meredith would have been much more interesting without the demon sword, for example.  Same with Orsino becoming a Harvester and Anders being possessed.  That is just my opinion though. 

[Chun Hei]

Meredith's magic sword was dumb as was the Harvester scene in for pro-mage Hawke. I wish they had Meredith and Orsino appear more throughout the game to give them a better build up like Loghain in DA:O. I think the evil magic sword and harvester were added so players would feel better about killing their opponent and making sure that EVERY Hawke killed both characters no matter who they sided with.

[Bayz]

Well a lot of problems comes with this...the games goes on for six years, yet there isn't much character development in the plot...

[The Hierophant]

Chun Hei wrote...

Meredith's magic sword was dumb as was the Harvester scene in for pro-mage Hawke. I wish they had Meredith and Orsino appear more throughout the game to give them a better build up like Loghain in DA:O. I think the evil magic sword and harvester were added so players would feel better about killing their opponent and making sure that EVERY Hawke killed both characters no matter who they sided with.

I agree especially with Orsino, his sudden melt down was  written in such a ham fisted, and non sensical manner  that i had this look on my face . Hawke and co were sodomizing the templar forces then Orsino loses it and

goes one winged angel on everybody. Yeah you can say he was pressured by the deaths of his charges, but we

were winning, WINNING!

[NedPepper]

Stephen King's Dark Tower is the best example. Martin's Fire and Ice too. Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere and American Gods fall into the same category. I'm not sure "dark fantasy" is the right word, though. I've always called it "grounded fantasy". It's not only bringing in morally grey protagonists, but also a sense that the "heroes" don't think of themselves as such. Lord of the Rings, the father of D and D and most high, epic fantasy, has dark elements in it, but it clearly draws from old fairy tale tropes of hero and villian. The antagonists are usually so clearly evil they cannot be identified with. And the heroes are always pure.

Grounded fantasy also brings the real world into it. It's interested in human themes, whereas other fantasy isn't really keen on using fantasy tropes as a metaphor for human suffering or human existence. When you have godlike elves and thrifty, greedy dwarves, and an all powerful demonic entity with no personality other than being some personificaton of evil (Sauron), it's a good sign you're not reading dark or grounded fantasy.

Dragon Age uses dark fantasy elements. The elves are second class citizens, either living in ghettos or in native tribes. The dwarves remain the high fantasy trope, but they're more nuanced, and there could be something to the fact that they're being forced to evolve or fade away. (A metaphor for fantasy in and of itself?). And there's a ton of grey area. The Wardens. Loghain. Meridith. Even Hawke and your Warden can be morally dubious if you choose. And the whole issue with mages acts as a metaphor for many relevant real life issues. Terrorism, Homosexuality. Et cetera. And there's the philisophical quandry that are the Qunari. The last element, and one of the most important elements, is the dialogue. It's not overly archaic or overly expository. The characters in Dragon Age purposely speak in a way that brings the real world into it. You can identify with these characters even in a fantasy setting.

I've read so much "classical" fantasy that has that annoying hero speak, or that weird Middle Age dialect. It's been done so much it is an overused cliche, and is a definite way to cause a complete disconnect. "I am Galdstaff, son of Gandor, the ruler of the West. Be thy my enemy or my friend?" Or "I shall ride into battle at the gleam of first morn and mine enemy shall taste the steel of my blade and know justice in each blow." You know, that kind of crap. What makes Dragon Age smart is that they stay away from that. Alistair, Varric, and company sound like people you might actually know. Only Morrigan uses that stilted way of speaking, but the way it's done, it almost sounds like a regional dialect or even a purposeful ruse.

[Bayz]

i think the final solution is to make DA3 like Doom3 in the flashlight use thingy. That will make the game sooo dark...literally

[bEVEsthda]

I don't care what makes a "Dark Fantasy".


Is it supposed to be a desirable trait? or what?

[Bayz]

Nope just another tone of grey in the pitch black sea that is the RPG genre as a whole. Dark Fantasy is just another flavour, desirable for some who like to taste it, and not for those who are not into that.

Is like "why jRPG? Is that even desirable?"

[TEWR]

simfamSP wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

Meredith's magic sword was dumb as was the Harvester scene in for pro-mage Hawke. I wish they had Meredith and Orsino appear more throughout the game to give them a better build up like Loghain in DA:O. I think the evil magic sword and harvester were added so players would feel better about killing their opponent and making sure that EVERY Hawke killed both characters no matter who they sided with.

I agree especially with Orsino, his sudden melt down was  written in such a ham fisted, and non sensical manner  that i had this look on my face . Hawke and co were sodomizing the templar forces then Orsino loses it and

goes one winged angel on everybody. Yeah you can say he was pressured by the deaths of his charges, but we

were winning, WINNING!

Yeah, the Orsino scene was a result of writers block I bet.

"What dramatic turn can we put in here?"

Actually it was originally written that the player was given the option to forgive him or fight him, but Bioware removed the option because they wanted MOAR boss fights.

No care for whether or not the scene would make any sense if they do it in such an idiotic way, especially since that scene  still has the live mages appear in the background when he says what he does.

Funny thing, that scene would've been more tolerable -- though imo still bad because of bad characterization and a badly executed plotline -- if the option to forgive or fight Orsino was still in the game.

[Bayz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually it was originally written that the player was given the option to forgive him or fight him, but Bioware removed the option because they wanted MOAR boss fights.

Gosh, I had the impression of that actually...shame they didn't go for the sensible approach.

[Riknas]

Dark Fantasy is made with poor lighting effects. Low fantasy takes place in valleys and pits (which is why it often coincides with dark fantasy, because the sun struggles to reach those places.

Notice Dragon Age often has you in the Deep Roads, everything bad happens at night, and why we go in so many dark dungeons. The reason we often dismiss Dragon Age as less than Dark Fantasy is because we spend a great deal of time during the day, be it on the road or in cities.


High Fantasy takes place on mountains and cliffs. This is why The Lord of the Rings had to take end atop such a tall volcano, and why the Fellowship so frequently fought on hills, ridges, and such large castles.

Why don't you guys get this?

Modifié par Riknas, 20 décembre 2011 - 03:40 .