313 réponses à ce sujet

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Amaterasuomikami wrote...
Samara
Unrivalled biotic abilities

Well, not really sure about this: she did not beat her daughter in that domain, nor did I saw her destroying YMIR mechs bare-handed like Jack.

[Someone With Mass]

MisterJB wrote...
 Really, how so? I'd say being one of the few that can lead the Fire Team Flawlessly proves her tactical expertise.

She shows absolutely nothing that proves that she's able of accomplishing such a feat. Neither does Jacob, for that matter.

In fact, I'd say that the Lazarus disaster would imply that she's not a good leader, since her first reaction is to abandon everyone on the station. That's not a leader I'd follow through hell.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 14 décembre 2011 - 10:38 .

[SNascimento]

There is no right answer for this, the interesting thing about topic like this is that you can compare and discuss different character... the problem is that it needs at least two people willing to do it.

[alex90c]

MisterJB wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

She has consistantly failed to prove her tactical expertise,

 Really, how so? I'd say being one of the few that can lead the Fire Team Flawlessly proves her tactical expertise.

displays bad leadership by sowing distrust among the crew and

 She did no such thing. In fact, it was obvious that the Cerberus crew trusted her. One of the operators on the bridge talked about how "Shepard and Lawson" would stop the collectors and another about how Miranda assured him that his family would be evacuated safely.
Some of the squadmates did not trust her, that is true. However, we have not actually seen Miranda sowing distrust among anyone so it's probrable that they distrusted her simply due to her loyalty to Cerberus.

even manages to show her lack of taking into account changes in situation.

When?

is a bit tougher than average non-enhanced humans,

On what basis do you claim that she is only "a bit" tougher?

flawlessly?

she got herself and legion killed in my first playthrough

so much for "flawless" 

[Ryzaki]

Huh? There's no way she could've gotten herself killed as FT leader. She has "we didn't want to record someone else giving directions to Shep." shield. (which wears off once Shep gets to the HR)

If she was unloyal she would've gotten the tech killed though (like everyone else).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 décembre 2011 - 10:41 .

[100k]

naledgeborn wrote...

100k wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Being "good at just about anything I choose to do" (AKA being an information sponge) already denotes a certain level of intelligence. And there are other examples.
Miranda was able to escape from the richest human in the galaxy at a very young age, 14 to 16, but, more importantly, she was the head of the Lazarus Project. Wilson was clearly a genius since he was the one who assured Miranda that Shepard was salvageable but later, she was able to correct him.

Well...I don't know if this is a fair example of her intelligence. Wilson might have been trying to kill Shepard and make it look like an accident. All Miranda would've done was fire him with the typical (and hollow) threat of eternal unemployment. Oh, she's probably smarter than him in matters of tactics (which allowed her to cut him off at the project base), but her intelligence isn't as quite impressive than Liara's or Mordin's.

Granted she doesn't have 108 years, or STG experience. 

Liara, really?

54 years of being a "child". 54 years of digging. 

Oh yeah she's definitely the first person I'd call for help in a fight.

At 50 most asari girls have already seen some form of combat. Samara, Morinth, and that eclipse sister all did. Plus, being the daughter of a matriarch would probably ensure that she had training. And during her "dig sessions" she was assulted several times by pirates, but Liara said she always fought them off.

By the time ME3 has roled around Liara is ruthless, incredibly smart, and dangerous. Oh, shes no Samara, Jack, or Aria, but she still has a lot of skill.

Modifié par 100k, 14 décembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[DiebytheSword]

I feel that every member of Shepards crew, no matter what paths you take, nor what DLC you own, are exceptional in their own way. Every last one. It is the entire point of the ME2 story, assemble a Dirty Dozen to do the impossible.

An unexceptional person would not be invited to such a party, dossier be damned.

ME1 was not much different, except that people were unproven at that time except for perhaps Kaidan, Wrex and Garrus.

[100k]

Physically strongest goes to Wrex>Grunt>Legion>Garrus>Vega+Shepard+Jacob.

[bioticfu]

Morinth, that is all.

[DiebytheSword]

100k wrote...

At 50 most asari girls have already seen some form of combat. Samara, Morinth, and that eclipse sister all did. Plus, being the daughter of a matriarch would probably ensure that she had training. And during her "dig sessions" she was assulted several times by pirates, but Liara said she always fought them off.

By the time ME3 has roled around Liara is ruthless, incredibly smart, and dangerous. Oh, shes no Samara, Jack, or Aria, but she still has a lot of skill.

How do you quantify "most"?  I have seen a number of Asari dancers, diplomats and merchants, many of whom may not have had military training, and only training in biotics use.  While I agree that Liara has changed much from ME1 to ME3, and is often sold shorter than she should be, saying that most Asari are combat trained is a stretch wihtout some sort of proof from the game.

Turians and Krogan can sincerely have that said of them, perhaps even Quarian because of the nature of their existance, but Asari . . . I don't know.

[Gokuthegrate]

Wrex
Samara/Morinth
Jack
Legion
Liara
Zaeed
Garrus
Grunt
Thane
Jacob
Kaidan
Miranda
Mordin
Kasumi
Ashley
Tali

[MisterJB]

Nashiktal wrote...

1. If we are going by pure gameplay mechanics than I dare say almost everyone is a god and this topic is moot.

Then, by your logic, Samara and Jack can not be proven to be biotically more powerful than Miranda, Jacob or Thane. After all, it is only a gameplay mechanic.

2. Was the cerberus crew the lot doing the suicide mission?

Weren't they essential to the completion of the mission? Would Shepard have been able to fly the Normandy without them while EDI was still leashed? Weren't their lives at risk, just the same?
Yes, they were also part of the Suicide Mission.

I was referring to the crew as in the only ones on the ship when you are doing the suicide mission. Fighting with jack, a very childish thing she should have been able to handle, is one such example.

Even then, it's not true. Miranda did nothing to make Garrus or Tali distrust her. They were simply prejudiced against Cerberus.
On Jack's case, it was Jack who started figths with Miranda. And even then, Miranda's toughts were directed on how Jack could negativelly affect the mission. "On this ship we follow orders." and "She's unstable. She's jeopardizing the mission."
The only comment that could be regarded as irresponsible was "Clearly you were a mistake" and one comment against someone who had just tried to kill her does not prove that Miranda is a bad leader.

3. She fails to comprehend potential betrayal,

Niket had previously helped her against her father. There was no reason to believe that he would betray her in an almost identical situation. Helping one of the Lawson girl escape.

she fails to take into accound changes of the original plan, and ends up using zerg rush as her only tactic.

You either be more specific or I'll have to start assuming that you mean such and such.
Anyway, Niket's betrayal did not warrant a change of the plan other than he also had to be eliminated, which she does, unless stopped by Shepard. The family was not with him at the time and the best way to assure their safety remained to be killing every eclipse merc hired by Mr. Lawson.

The suicide missions she overestimates her own ablitlies and when following her suggestions ends up causing damage to the missions itself.

Miranda had no way of knowying just how long the corridor would be or how many times they would have to stop due to Collectors. What she said held true.

[naledgeborn]

No.You're rationalizing. Liara only became a "badass" during Redemption. So forgive me, 52 rather than 54 years of digging.

Archaeologist chases down a SPECTRE (best of the best out of trillions of people; with lord knows how many commendations to get where she's got) is contrived writing.

If Shiala were Benezia's daughter your arguments would have some weight since she's introduced as already being a commando (with at least 30 years of non-operational training) and she's a maiden.

Liara's character "development" is ****ing stupid in every sense of the word. A fumble, a turnover, and a touchdown for the defense.

[PrinceLionheart]

Samara or Wrex

[100k]

DiebytheSword wrote...


How do you quantify "most"?  I have seen a number of Asari dancers, diplomats and merchants, many of whom may not have had military training, and only training in biotics use.  While I agree that Liara has changed much from ME1 to ME3, and is often sold shorter than she should be, saying that most Asari are combat trained is a stretch wihtout some sort of proof from the game.

Turians and Krogan can sincerely have that said of them, perhaps even Quarian because of the nature of their existance, but Asari . . . I don't know.

According to matriach Athyeta, most asari start out their lives doing one of two things-- fighting in merc groups, or stripping. Of course, this isn't ALL asari, but I don't see Liara NOT learning combat methods early on when a huge percentage of her people do. And combine that with her status as the daughter of a matriarch, and it seems fairly clear that she got the best training and education an asari could hope for.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...
She shows absolutely nothing that proves that she's able of accomplishing such a feat. Neither does Jacob, for that matter.

In fact, I'd say that the Lazarus disaster would imply that she's not a good leader, since her first reaction is to abandon everyone on the station. That's not a leader I'd follow through hell.

What disaster? The point of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard which was accomplished.
Searching for survivors and risk him getting shot would be a disservice to everyone who had already died.
Yes, Miranda is willing to sacrifice people in order to complete the mission. As much as it might hurt her, she does it and that's the trait of a good leader.

[100k]

MisterJB wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
She shows absolutely nothing that proves that she's able of accomplishing such a feat. Neither does Jacob, for that matter.

In fact, I'd say that the Lazarus disaster would imply that she's not a good leader, since her first reaction is to abandon everyone on the station. That's not a leader I'd follow through hell.

What disaster? The point of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard which was accomplished.
Searching for survivors and risk him getting shot would be a disservice to everyone who had already died.
Yes, Miranda is willing to sacrifice people in order to complete the mission. As much as it might hurt her, she does it and that's the trait of a good leader.

Well, Miranda herself admits that she's not a good leader (which is why I almost always choose Garrus as a FT leader). "I don't have what you have, that fire that makes people willing-- not just able-- to follow you into hell itself."

[MisterJB]

100k wrote...
Well, Miranda herself admits that she's not a good leader (which is why I almost always choose Garrus as a FT leader). "I don't have what you have, that fire that makes people willing-- not just able-- to follow you into hell itself."

That means she is not good at inspiring loyalty like Shepard is. She also says that she has experience leading "You need someone who can command loyalty through experience" and she does a good job as FT leader. If loyal, just like everyone else.

[100k]

MisterJB wrote...

100k wrote...
Well, Miranda herself admits that she's not a good leader (which is why I almost always choose Garrus as a FT leader). "I don't have what you have, that fire that makes people willing-- not just able-- to follow you into hell itself."

That means she is not good at inspiring loyalty like Shepard is. She also says that she has experience leading "You need someone who can command loyalty through experience" and she does a good job as FT leader. If loyal, just like everyone else.

She also said she could hold up the biotic field :-/

Inspiration is the apex of leadership. Grunt can lead the fire teams, but I doubt you'd want him to.

[spirosz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

My favourite squadmate is stronger than yours! Is this how it works?

You bet. My favourites could tear yours apart.

Gotta' catch them all! 

[MisterJB]

Experience and a solid knowledge of tactics can make up for lack of inspirational skills.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 décembre 2011 - 11:10 .

[Someone With Mass]

MisterJB wrote...
Yes, Miranda is willing to sacrifice people in order to complete the mission. As much as it might hurt her, she does it and that's the trait of a good leader.

Yeah. Sure.

Ever seen The Thin Red Line?

Nick Nolte plays a colonel that's willing to sacrifice all his men to take a small hill from the Japanese during WWII. It goes so bad that his men refuses to obey his orders since he's just sending them to their deaths, while they choose follow a captain who shows compassion and care for his men. The same captain also considered the options which didn't involve shoving people into a field of gunfire and more than likely get them killed.

Sure, he had a hard time accepting the fact that some of his men were ultimately going to die, but at least he didn't give them all up the second it didn't look so good.

Oh, and by the way. It was so smart by Miranda to shoot Wilson. We could have interrogated him to find out his motive and how he did what he did so we can prevent future accidents like that, but that would have been a good thing.

Too dangerous? What if I sit in front of him with my gun jammed into his eye socket and if he so as much as twitches, I'll paint the walls in brain matter-gray?

Yeah, I'd rather take Garrus. At least I know he's a successful leader.

And no, what happened to his team on Omega wasn't because of him, it was because one of his men betrayed him. He was doing pretty good too.

[100k]

MisterJB wrote...

Experience and a solid knowledge of tactics can make up for lack of inspirational skills.

Sure it can...so can big guns, promises, and bribes. Your point is moot. 

[SNascimento]

One thing that really sums up what I think about Miranda is her suicide mission description: "Genetically manufactured to be superior in every way, she can move effortlessly from formidable biotic and superior soldier to brilliant tactician and vigilant guardian." 
.
This is the most important thing a soldier can have: resourcefulness. And no other squadmate Shepard has ever had is more resourceful than Miranda. This is, in shor,t why I think she is the most effective squadmate of all.
.
Not to mention all the comments of other people in the Mass Effect universe that support this idea: The Shadow Broker says how her death (and Shepard's) will criple Cerberus... he acknowledge her abilities and would even try to recruite her after he destroyed Cerberus (good luck with that, SB). Kasumi also states Miranda is the last person she wants to ****** off.
.
Not to mention her preponderant role in Cerberus, she is likely the most effective agent Cerberus had, and that says A LOT.

Modifié par SNascimento, 14 décembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[100k]

The dossier says the same thing for Jacob, proof that her abilites aren't the only powerhouse Cerberus posseses. 

Modifié par 100k, 14 décembre 2011 - 11:15 .