283 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Sorry, no desire to go back to the "is Merrill a doormat?" discussion. Suffice to say that in romance subplots the hyper-submissive thing annoys me, the sex-as-reward thing annoys me, and Bioware has an irritating tendency to do both.

But you first commented on it.

Sex as reward?  Hyper-submissive?

Wha?

The sex as reward thing is discussed at-length above. It's that "do quest, receev secks + troo wuv" thing that video games tend to do. Drives me up the wall.

The "hyper-submissive" think is the Tali/Merrill style character - you know, that LI that's designed to be as non-threatening as possible in order to maximize appeal to the socially awkward*. Bioware seems to have convinced themselves you need at least one in every game. Also drives me up the wall.

*and in doing so stumbles into amost every sexist trope in the book, because for some reason this character is always female.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Tali and Merrill are hyper-submissive? What nonsense is this?

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Variety is important, true. Unfortunately, with the changes BW implemented in DA2, I feel like there are no WRPGs that take player choice, multiple endings/plot lines and excellent narrative, all in the same package, on the market anymore. 

Well, you know, other than Twitcher 2, New Vegas, Human Revolution*, Mass Effect series**, etc. IMO ARPGs have take up a lot of the slack storytelling-wise from other RPGs. I also think declaring the end of Dragon Age as a good IP might be premature - sure, they seriously screwed up with DA2, but that doesn't preclude learning from their mistakes.

*if you consider it a WRPG

**if you can remember the MST3K mantra when it comes to plot holes

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Tali and Merrill are hyper-submissive? What nonsense is this?

hyper-submissive is probably not the best choice of terminology, actually. It's more the thing where they're designed to be as non-threatening as possible. This would be annoying by itself, but the thing that makes it IMO both sexist and annoying is that the character traits that make them non-threatening also happen to be sexist stereotypes.

[Wulfram]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

*and in doing so stumbles into amost every sexist trope in the book, because for some reason this character is always female.

Why doesn't Alistair qualify?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Tali and Merrill are hyper-submissive? What nonsense is this?

hyper-submissive is probably not the best choice of terminology, actually. It's more the thing where they're designed to be as non-threatening as possible. This would be annoying by itself, but the thing that makes it IMO both sexist and annoying is that the character traits that make them non-threatening also happen to be sexist stereotypes.

At least when it comes to Merrill, I like the contrast between her being this sort of boogie-man for many in Kirkwall -- nonhuman, nonAndrastian, culturally foreign, blood-mage, talked to a demon, etc -- and yet being one of the nicest, best-intentioned, most good-willed people you'll meet.  Of all the people who have monsterous souls, it's the "monster" who doesn't.

And the contrast between who she really is and how her own Dalish clan sees her through their own lens of superstition and ignorance takes that into the realm of tragedy.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Tali and Merrill are hyper-submissive? What nonsense is this?

hyper-submissive is probably not the best choice of terminology, actually. It's more the thing where they're designed to be as non-threatening as possible. This would be annoying by itself, but the thing that makes it IMO both sexist and annoying is that the character traits that make them non-threatening also happen to be sexist stereotypes.

At least when it comes to Merrill, I like the contrast between her being this sort of boogie-man for many in Kirkwall -- nonhuman, nonAndrastian, culturally foreign, blood-mage, talked to a demon, etc -- and yet being one of the nicest, best-intentioned, most good-willed people you'll meet.  Of all the people who have monsterous souls, it's the "monster" who doesn't.

And the contrast between who she really is and how her own Dalish clan sees her through their own lens of superstition and ignorance takes that into the realm of tragedy.

Yeah, by all means, that ironic aspect of her character is interesting. I'm not saying that Tali and Merrill are terrible characters and have no well-written aspects*, it's just that I think that the writers didn't think hard enough about what types of stereotypes their characters were embodying.

*I thought Tali's loyalty mission was well-done, for instance.

Wulfram wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

*and in doing so stumbles into amost every sexist trope in the book, because for some reason this character is always female.

Why doesn't Alistair qualify?

Because his character traits didn't come off as written to emphasize his weakness, or at least not to me.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 17 décembre 2011 - 04:52 .

[Wulfram]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Because his character traits didn't come off as written to emphasize his weakness, or at least not to me.

He's an unselfconfident virgin with a difficult childhood who naturally defers to the PC

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Wulfram wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Because his character traits didn't come off as written to emphasize his weakness, or at least not to me.

He's an unselfconfident virgin with a difficult childhood who naturally defers to the PC

Let's put it this way - there's a difference between a character with weaknesses and a character written as weak.

EDIT: Also, mechanically there's the character development aspect of Alistair to consider. Picking the right dialogue options helps him grow more of a backbone.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:42 .

[Wulfram]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Let's put it this way - there's a difference between a character with weaknesses and a character written as weak.

Are you sure the reason you percieve the men to be have weaknesses and the women to be weak is because of the writing and not your own preconceptions?

EDIT: Also, mechanically there's the character development aspect of Alistair to consider. Picking the right dialogue options helps him grow more of a backbone.

Picking the right dialogue option allows you to manipulate him into going along even more with your own wishes.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:46 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Wulfram wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Let's put it this way - there's a difference between a character with weaknesses and a character written as weak.

Are you sure the reason you percieve the men to be have weaknesses and the women to be weak is because of the writing and not your own preconceptions?

Bioware writes excellent male and female characters who have weaknesses but are not weak. IMO you could make a much better case that Tali would fall into this category if we remove her romance subplot from the discussion*. Re: romance subplots, there's a huge difference between "I'm attracted to you but have no idea how to go about following up on that attraction" and "lol ur so perfect I have a giant crush on u ur so much better then me."

*And inconsistent characterization is a topic for another day... 

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[jlb524]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
The sex as reward thing is discussed at-length above. It's that "do quest, receev secks + troo wuv" thing that video games tend to do. Drives me up the wall.

Well, how else could they do it?

It's not just a romance thing...it's "do quest, become bffs with character" or "do quest, the Dwarven people will let you pick their king", etc.

Anyway, this game mechanic hardly makes Merrill a 'weak character' that lacks agency.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote... 
The "hyper-submissive" think is the Tali/Merrill style character - you know, that LI that's designed to be as non-threatening as possible in order to maximize appeal to the socially awkward*. Bioware seems to have convinced themselves you need at least one in every game. Also drives me up the wall.

"Non-threatening" in which way?

Neither of those characters submits to the PC in the romance (submission, meaning...allowing their partner to run their lives completely...both of these women will stand up to the PC if they do something they don't agree with).

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
Bioware writes excellent male and female characters who have weaknesses but are not weak.

And...Tali and Merrll don't fit that?  Neither seem weak to me.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote... 

IMO you could make a much better case that Tali would fall into this category if we remove her romance subplot from the discussion*. Re: romance subplots, there's a huge difference between "I'm attracted to you but have no idea how to go about following up on that attraction" and "lol ur so perfect I have a giant crush on u ur so much better then me."

I'm not sure why you are only focusing in on the romance for these characters (that are optional) in dismissing their characters outright as 'weak'.

Can they not exist as characters outside of this?

Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

The sex as reward thing is discussed at-length above. It's that "do quest, receev secks + troo wuv" thing that video games tend to do. Drives me up the wall.

This dynamic is negated by the rivalry path.  

"hyper-submissive"

On the rivalry path, Hawke doesn't want her to keep working on the mirror, but she does.  So. . . the opposite of submissive?  

as non-threatening as possible 

This is the first accurate thing you've said about her.  However, your initial assertion was that she was a poorly written female character because she "lacked agency."  

So basically, for a female character to have "agency" she must be "threatening."  It's obvious from your comments that your understanding of characters in fiction is based mostly on superficialities and appearances rather than the substance of their actions within the work.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 17 décembre 2011 - 07:23 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
The sex as reward thing is discussed at-length above. It's that "do quest, receev secks + troo wuv" thing that video games tend to do. Drives me up the wall.

Well, how else could they do it?

It's not just a romance thing...it's "do quest, become bffs with character" or "do quest, the Dwarven people will let you pick their king", etc.

Anyway, this game mechanic hardly makes Merrill a 'weak character' that lacks agency.

Note how I said it's a different issue.

There are multiple alternatives - tie romance subplot to timeline given certain dialogue flags (this is how most RPGs do it, and how Bio did it in earlier games), give the characters a pre-existing relationship, etc.

 
The "hyper-submissive" think is the Tali/Merrill style character - you know, that LI that's designed to be as non-threatening as possible in order to maximize appeal to the socially awkward*. Bioware seems to have convinced themselves you need at least one in every game. Also drives me up the wall.

"Non-threatening" in which way?

Neither of those characters submits to the PC in the romance (submission, meaning...allowing their partner to run their lives completely...both of these women will stand up to the PC if they do something they don't agree with).

As I mentioned, hyper-submissive is probably not the best terminology for this issue. It's the issue where the characters are written as (IMO implausibly) awkward and self-effacing. Worse, they aren't equals in their relationships. There are a lot of comments along the lines of "how could someone as awesome as you fall for someone like me?" and the like. This is problematic given the history (in fiction and IRL) of women being treated as unequal partners in relationships.

IMO you could make a much better case that Tali would fall into this category if we remove her romance subplot from the discussion*. Re: romance subplots, there's a huge difference between "I'm attracted to you but have no idea how to go about following up on that attraction" and "lol ur so perfect I have a giant crush on u ur so much better then me."

I'm not sure why you are only focusing in on the romance for these characters (that are optional) in dismissing their characters outright as 'weak'.

Can they not exist as characters outside of this?

Hence the inconsistency issue, which is a problem that I think stems more from multiple writers than from any other factor.

If you see sexist writing in one area but not in another area, I don't think it's out of line to point out said sexism where it exists.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 17 décembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

as non-threatening as possible 

This is the first accurate thing you've said about her.  However, your initial assertion was that she was a poorly written female character because she "lacked agency."  

So basically, for a female character to have "agency" she must be "threatening."  It's obvious from your comments that your understanding of characters in fiction is based mostly on superficialities and appearances rather than the substance of their actions within the work.  

The lack of agency thing is pretty Merrill-specific, related to her rivalry -> romance path, and is more a general side issue. I clarified why the Merrill/Tali archetype strikes me as sexist in my recent posts, and it might be wise to read them and respond to what I actually said vs. flaming based on what you think I said.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

The lack of agency thing is pretty Merrill-specific, related to her rivalry -> romance path, and is more a general side issue. I clarified why the Merrill/Tali archetype strikes me as sexist in my recent posts, and it might be wise to read them and respond to what I actually said vs. flaming based on what you think I said.

I'm not sure why you think I haven't read what you said.  The "you're so much better than me" thing can probably function as fan service for some people, but I don't think that's a reason to exclude it, and I don't think a female character can't express that type of emotion and still be well written.  There are women (and men) out there who are like that.  

Merrill has agency in the story.  She has goals and desires that she acts on even when her romantic partner, the player character, doesn't want her to.  

[Killjoy Cutter]

And she's the one who takes 3/4 of the big step in making the relationship a romantic one, at least on the "friendmance" side.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

The lack of agency thing is pretty Merrill-specific, related to her rivalry -> romance path, and is more a general side issue. I clarified why the Merrill/Tali archetype strikes me as sexist in my recent posts, and it might be wise to read them and respond to what I actually said vs. flaming based on what you think I said.

I'm not sure why you think I haven't read what you said.  The "you're so much better than me" thing can probably function as fan service for some people, but I don't think that's a reason to exclude it, and I don't think a female character can't express that type of emotion and still be well written.  There are women (and men) out there who are like that.  

Merrill has agency in the story.  She has goals and desires that she acts on even when her romantic partner, the player character, doesn't want her to.  

I don't want to get back into the "is Merrill a doormat?" question, because that has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

Re: your first post, however, I have no problem with characters being written as self-effacing if I see a clear indication that the writers have fully considered the mindset of a character behaving that way and (if the characters in question are female) are at least tangentially aware of the role that sexism can play in perpetuating this behavior.

My issue is that I don't see that happening with Merrill and Tali's characters. It looks suspiciously like the writers wrote these characters this way to appeal to a certain segment of the player-base without thinking about whether fans who want self-effacing female love interests should be given what they want.

In other words, I feel like the writers were asking the question:

"This character's self-effacement is so adorable! Don't you want to nom her head?"

When they should have been asking the question:

"What sort of issues would lead to self-effacing behavior in the context of a relationship, and how should we as writers approach this issue intelligently while avoiding the perpetuation of sexist character tropes?"

[congealeddgtllvr]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Re: your first post, however, I have no problem with characters being written as self-effacing if I see a clear indication that the writers have fully considered the mindset of a character behaving that way and (if the characters in question are female) are at least tangentially aware of the role that sexism can play in perpetuating this behavior.

Look, I get what you're saying, I'm just giving the writers more credit regarding Merrill (never completed a Tali romance). Her self-deprecation is completely consistent with her feeling like she needs to "prove her worth" by fixing the mirror.  She risks her life with it and the demon and the blood magic because she feels like her life isn't worth much.  So no, I don't think they were like "let's give the insecure people their quota" or whatever.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 17 décembre 2011 - 08:19 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Re: your first post, however, I have no problem with characters being written as self-effacing if I see a clear indication that the writers have fully considered the mindset of a character behaving that way and (if the characters in question are female) are at least tangentially aware of the role that sexism can play in perpetuating this behavior.

Look, I get what you're saying, I'm just giving the writers more credit regarding Merrill (never completed a Tali romance). Her self-deprecation is completely consistent with her feeling like she needs to "prove her worth" by fixing the mirror.  She risks her life with it and the demon and the blood magic because she feels like her life isn't worth much.  So no, I don't think they were like "let's give the insecure people their quota" or whatever.  

I'm more inclined to suspect that she was written to appeal to a specific audience because of the "virginal girl next door" comment, but yeah, this is all very very subjective and speculative. 

[jbrand2002uk]

Addai67 wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

@Nightscrawl I also enjoy DA2 and am likely on playthrough 30 by this point( i lost track at 25)

  You're joking.  Gotta be.

Nope not in the slightest while we brittish do have a sense of humour I take my game playing very seriously( stiff upper lip, chocks away and all that)

[alex90c]

I couldn't even play DA:O that many times.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

@Nightscrawl I also enjoy DA2 and am likely on playthrough 30 by this point( i lost track at 25)

  You're joking.  Gotta be.

Nope not in the slightest while we brittish do have a sense of humour I take my game playing very seriously( stiff upper lip, chocks away and all that)

Did you lose a bet?

[jbrand2002uk]

No i just enjoy the game as much as i enjoy killing :ph34r:the enemy:ph34r: in the early COD games its more fun as its not a snore fest like Origins which is no fun at all compared to KOTOR, hell even Freelancer is more fun than DAO

Modifié par casamar, 18 décembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Gunderic]

So Gamespot released their nominations of the year list and Dragon Age 2 didn't win at anything. LOL