283 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Monica83 wrote...

But saskia have IMO a plate and a credible one... Others dressed sexy are the sorceress.. Even triss in travel is full covered...

Isabela just have a corset a perizoma and long boots i mean its ridicolus

Saskia has custom plate armor that protects everything but her heart. Counterproductive, no? And yeah, essentially every sorceress but Triss is dressed hilariously. I'm somewhat unclear as to why you see how fanservice-y female character designs are problematic when they crop up in DA2 but not when they crop up in TW2.

[Sylvianus]

Sometimes, I feel, that it is just a story of fanboyism. Some Tw2 fans bash DA2, and some DA2 fans bash Tw2. Each side uses hyperbole.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 décembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[DreamwareStudio]

I wasn't calling Bioware sexist, though some things in the game could be considered so. I meant that's what they and other companies need to learn: a healthy balance between sex, sex appeal, realism. It's a growing process, and certainly one that is improving.

[The Hierophant]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Monica83 wrote...
In Dragon age 2 i really hated how they potraied isabella..

I mean a woman with a huge breast that wear a corset a perizoma and long boots... Ho well but now i bet that DA2 defenders comes out and say: It's just the character.. or It have a more personal look.. Or again. It's just oversexualized...

And this isn't a problem that you also have with Witcher 2... how? I mean, I like that game, but some of the character designs are kind of hilarious. Saskia's cleavage-plate comes to mind.

I agree a little with your point on Saskia's cleavage plate, but Isabella has no armor whatsoever and her cleavage gets bigger every time i see them. Isabella's outfit has no practicality in any combat situation involving dragons, and heavily armored goons armed to the teeth.

[DreamwareStudio]

Sylvianus wrote...

Sometimes, I feel, that it is just a story of fanboyism. Some Tw2 fans bash DA2, and some DA2 fans bash Tw2. Each side uses hyperbole.

Me, I'm a fan of good games.  For instance, just because Bioware made DA:O and CD Projekt made the Witcher doesn't mean I can't like both.  Same with Skyrim.  If I find a game is good or bad, I judge it to be that regardless of who made it.

I will definitely agree, though.  A lot of the bickering I see is fanboyism where one side or the other will refuse to hear anything negative about either game because of who made it.

[Il Divo]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

I think the role-playing genre will survive. I'm just not so sure about Bioware. They seem to have completely lost touch with what RPG players want.

Way to go using your own blog to support an unfounded argument. I especially love how you take developer statements out of context and have the arrogance to presume that you speak for everyone who enjoys RPGs, while simultaneously making offensive generalizations about anyone who enjoys other genres, with no consideration for the fact that those demographics can and frequently do crossover.

Yes plaintiff. It's called an "opinion". And so far the numbers support it. I just used my bvlog to spare myself some typing. Perhaps the name "Urk's Outpost" was too subtle for you? I do apologize if you feel misled and congratulate you on the steel trap intellect that allowed you to figure out my ruse.

That excuse doesn't fly when you're using your blog in an effort to support the claim that Bioware has lost touch with RPG players. You are not the RPG fan base. You do not speak for my, or everyone else's, tastes.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 décembre 2011 - 09:23 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

The Hierophant wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Monica83 wrote...
In Dragon age 2 i really hated how they potraied isabella..

I mean a woman with a huge breast that wear a corset a perizoma and long boots... Ho well but now i bet that DA2 defenders comes out and say: It's just the character.. or It have a more personal look.. Or again. It's just oversexualized...

And this isn't a problem that you also have with Witcher 2... how? I mean, I like that game, but some of the character designs are kind of hilarious. Saskia's cleavage-plate comes to mind.

I agree a little with your point on Saskia's cleavage plate, but Isabella has no armor whatsoever and her cleavage gets bigger every time i see them. Isabella's outfit has no practicality in any combat situation involving dragons, and heavily armored goons armed to the teeth.

Oh yeah, I completely agree. My opinion is not (as you can read earlier) that "TW2 is sexist and DA2 is not sexist." It's more "they're both sexist in their own special ways." On balance, I find DA2 sexism worse, but that's just my opinion.

[John Epler]

Let's try and dial down the hostility and aggression a tad, please.

Thanks all.

[Sylvianus]

google_calasade wrote...

I wasn't calling Bioware sexist, though some things in the game could be considered so. I meant that's what they and other companies need to learn: a healthy balance between sex, sex appeal, realism. It's a growing process, and certainly one that is improving.

It wasn't talking about you, but about the bsn, I am here since a long time now and you have no idea how it turns usually. And I agree, I am for consistency too.. :happy:

What bothers me are the discussions unhealthy, not motivations behind. We're on a video game forum. 

I rather focus my criticism on the results, I try to show that this is not a good thing without going into unnecessary paths to convince..

But the most important is that we agree.

[The Hierophant]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Monica83 wrote...
In Dragon age 2 i really hated how they potraied isabella..

I mean a woman with a huge breast that wear a corset a perizoma and long boots... Ho well but now i bet that DA2 defenders comes out and say: It's just the character.. or It have a more personal look.. Or again. It's just oversexualized...

And this isn't a problem that you also have with Witcher 2... how? I mean, I like that game, but some of the character designs are kind of hilarious. Saskia's cleavage-plate comes to mind.

I agree a little with your point on Saskia's cleavage plate, but Isabella has no armor whatsoever and her cleavage gets bigger every time i see them. Isabella's outfit has no practicality in any combat situation involving dragons, and heavily armored goons armed to the teeth.

Oh yeah, I completely agree. My opinion is not (as you can read earlier) that "TW2 is sexist and DA2 is not sexist." It's more "they're both sexist in their own special ways." On balance, I find DA2 sexism worse, but that's just my opinion.

So far with the sexism issues both of these games have nothing on DCnU.

[Maria Caliban]

Seriously? Dragon Age II is more sexist than the Witcher 2 because of Isabela?

Aveline, Meredith, Merrill, Cassandra, Sister Petricia, and the Keeper, all women with different personalities, roles, and looks but because there's one overtly sexualized woman in your companions, Dragon Age II is sexist?

Oh lord. Next we're going to hear how Sheryl Chee must hate women again because she created Leliana.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Very good, so it's not only disgruntled fans who wanted "Dragon Age Origins 2" that thought DA2 was a disappointment. What a surprise.

Eh, the very first thing he says was that he wanted something more like DA:O and BG.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 décembre 2011 - 09:52 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seriously? Dragon Age II is more sexist than the Witcher 2 because of Isabela?

Aveline, Meredith, Merrill, Cassandra, Sister Petricia, and the Keeper, all women with different personalities, roles, and looks but because there's one overtly sexualized woman in your companions, Dragon Age II is sexist?

Oh lord. Next we're going to hear how Sheryl Chee must hate women again because she created Leliana.

"There are some strong female characters in the game" =/= "nothing in the game can possibly be sexist."

Haha oh Leliana. Is there any female stereotype you don't embody?

[Maria Caliban]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seriously? Dragon Age II is more sexist than the Witcher 2 because of Isabela?

Aveline, Meredith, Merrill, Cassandra, Sister Petricia, and the Keeper, all women with different personalities, roles, and looks but because there's one overtly sexualized woman in your companions, Dragon Age II is sexist?

Oh lord. Next we're going to hear how Sheryl Chee must hate women again because she created Leliana.

"There are some strong female characters in the game" =/= "nothing in the game can possibly be sexist."

Haha oh Leliana. Is there any female stereotype you don't embody?

I don't think you understand what a 'strong female character' is if you felt the need to cross of Merrill. It's not 'strong' as in being able to kick your ass or being tough. It's being a strong CHARACTER; as in, well-rounded, and having goals and personal agency.

That said, you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that sexism is women having big ****** and showing skin. That's not the problem. That's never been the problem. In a world completely free of sexism, there would still be female characters designed to appeal to the stereotypical straight male gaze.

What's sexist is when 1) sexy female characters are never developed beyond that sexiness, and 2) the default for female is sexy.

Neither of those are true when it comes to Isabela and Dragon Age II. In fact, Isabela, especially given her relationship with Merrill and Aveline, is pretty damn feminist.

[Atakuma]

Modifié par Atakuma, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[Il Divo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seriously? Dragon Age II is more sexist than the Witcher 2 because of Isabela?

Aveline, Meredith, Merrill, Cassandra, Sister Petricia, and the Keeper, all women with different personalities, roles, and looks but because there's one overtly sexualized woman in your companions, Dragon Age II is sexist?

Oh lord. Next we're going to hear how Sheryl Chee must hate women again because she created Leliana.

"There are some strong female characters in the game" =/= "nothing in the game can possibly be sexist."

Haha oh Leliana. Is there any female stereotype you don't embody?

I don't think you understand what a 'strong female character' is if you felt the need to cross of Merrill. It's not 'strong' as in being able to kick your ass or being tough. It's being a strong CHARACTER; as in, well-rounded, and having goals and personal agency.

That said, you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that sexism is women having big ****** and showing skin. That's not the problem. That's never been the problem. In a world completely free of sexism, there would still be female characters designed to appeal to the stereotypical straight male gaze.

What's sexist is when 1) sexy female characters are never developed beyond that sexiness, and 2) the default for female is sexy.

Neither of those are true when it comes to Isabela and Dragon Age II. In fact, Isabela, especially given her relationship with Merrill and Aveline, is pretty damn feminist.

Agree with this, 100%.

[csfteeeer]

Maria Caliban wrote...


I don't think you understand what a 'strong female character' is if you felt the need to cross of Merrill. It's not 'strong' as in being able to kick your ass or being tough. It's being a strong CHARACTER; as in, well-rounded, and having goals and personal agency.

That said, you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that sexism is women having big ****** and showing skin. That's not the problem. That's never been the problem. In a world completely free of sexism, there would still be female characters designed to appeal to the stereotypical straight male gaze.

What's sexist is when 1) sexy female characters are never developed beyond that sexiness, and 2) the default for female is sexy.

Neither of those are true when it comes to Isabela and Dragon Age II. In fact, Isabela, especially given her relationship with Merrill and Aveline, is pretty damn feminist.

This.

[jbrand2002uk]

Back OT the whole point of reviewing a game is to review that game and that game alone, the reviewer clearly states Balders Gate was one of his favourite RPG's and his expectations heavily influenced by it, henceforth he like many of the so called "DAO Fanboys" judged DA2 by the requirements of a traditional RPG which DA2 is not, It is clearly a Casual RPG/Light RPG with the focus on action and as such a game it is very good for what it is.

Trying to compare it to a traditional RPG like DAO is simply the hardcore RPG group grasping at straws for a reason to fuel their own ego by complaining . Back on the point judging a casual RPG by the standards set by traditional RPG's is rank amateurism at best it would be akin to comparing a race car to a 4x4 the 2 are totally different and therefore incomparable.

Alot of the "Anti DA2" group seem to think that because both titles feature Dragon Age in their titles that this makes a comparison and therefore complete ignorance of the fact that DA2 and DAO are different types of RPG valid.If we were to follow the logic that the "anti DA2" group say they have then it would be fair to compare Western RPG's directly to Japanese RPG's which is ludicrous because while they are both RPG's of a sort they both have different priorities.

Comparing DA2 and DAO is the same as comparing JRPG's and WRPG's which is something no professional reviewer would do, So as far as I am concerned until this reviewers goes away locks himself in a room and makes a review based on the requirements for the group of RPG's to which DA2 belongs then I consider his opinion null and void. The OP does not help himself or others of his fraternity by claiming this review he links to now means that he and others that share his view were always right and that now BW should listen to them and go on yet another complete 180 direction shift.

I'm for differences of opinion that is the way of the world, but to claim that a viewpoint is the only correct one because a larger group agrees makes their claim loose all validity.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Maria Caliban wrote...

having...personal agency.

Hence crossing out Merril.

Maria Caliban wrote...

That said, you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that sexism is women having big ****** and showing skin. That's not the problem. That's never been the problem. In a world completely free of sexism, there would still be female characters designed to appeal to the stereotypical straight male gaze.

What's sexist is when 1) sexy female characters are never developed beyond that sexiness, and 2) the default for female is sexy.

Neither of those are true when it comes to Isabela and Dragon Age II. In fact, Isabela, especially given her relationship with Merrill and Aveline, is pretty damn feminist.

You may be confusing me with the guy I was talking to. Think about it for a second - if I thought sexism = male gaze visual design, would I be the person who finds TW2 less sexist than many recent Bioware games?

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:29 .

[LinksOcarina]

Actually, I thought that was what you were talking about to begin with.

[SammyJB17]

jbrand2002uk wrote...



Comparing DA2 and DAO is the same as comparing JRPG's and WRPG's which is something no professional reviewer would do

But when a game is released as a sequel to a certain type of game, is made by the same company, and stressed by that company that it still IS Dragon Age, comparisons are valid.

Modifié par SammyJB17, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:41 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Actually, I thought that was what you were talking about to begin with.

I was acknowledging the games' male gaze issues (and I do think that male gaze visual design is a way that sexism rears its ugly head in video games) but a much bigger problem with me re: sexism is writing and story. As you will recall from my posts earlier.

[jlb524]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

having...personal agency.

Hence crossing out Merril.

How does she lack 'personal agency'?

Hell, she has more agency than most.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Sylvianus]

csfteeeer wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...


I don't think you understand what a 'strong female character' is if you felt the need to cross of Merrill. It's not 'strong' as in being able to kick your ass or being tough. It's being a strong CHARACTER; as in, well-rounded, and having goals and personal agency.

That said, you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that sexism is women having big ****** and showing skin. That's not the problem. That's never been the problem. In a world completely free of sexism, there would still be female characters designed to appeal to the stereotypical straight male gaze.

What's sexist is when 1) sexy female characters are never developed beyond that sexiness, and 2) the default for female is sexy.

Neither of those are true when it comes to Isabela and Dragon Age II. In fact, Isabela, especially given her relationship with Merrill and Aveline, is pretty damn feminist.

This.

I hope many people will read that.

I do not know if some really play a role, or if there really is a sect of Puritans active on this forum preaching their religion. There was the same spirit with Morrigan before DAO came out ?

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

jlb524 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

having...personal agency.

Hence crossing out Merril.

How does she lack 'personal agency'?

Hell, she has more agency than most.

A little, right up until the romance subplot. Not unusual for female characters in Bioware games, sadly.

[jbrand2002uk]

SammyJB17 wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...



Comparing DA2 and DAO is the same as comparing JRPG's and WRPG's which is something no professional reviewer would do

But when a game is released as a sequel to a certain type of game, is made by the same company, and stressed by that company that it still IS Dragon Age, comparisons are valid.

That is whats called a mixture of Publicity, Hype and your own assumptions only a total novice and an idiot believes publicity and hype and takes them as a given and we all know what the say about assumptions make and ass out of you and me.

OK going with my car analogy would you compare a Range Rover to a 4 wheel drive estate car on a test in say a desert ? no you would'nt because the 2 are incomparable 

Just because a game is said to be a sequel and is made by the same company does not make the comparisson valid If i followed you logic then it would be fair to make a comparisson between the DAO games and the books since they are all written by the same man published by the same company and set in the same Universe.