He acknowledged the possibility that they're "winging it" to an extent, that doesn't make it a retcon.BrotherWarth wrote...
Stop bending over backward to make sense of a retcon.
Leliana is not a Seeker?
Débuté par
Blacklash93
, déc. 15 2011 03:12
#126
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 02:02
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Retour en haut
#127
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 02:04
Lenimph
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Blacklash93 wrote...
Was there a negative reception from the fans? I never saw anything.
But really it could easily be rationalized due to Leliana's greatest skill/concern, which is blending in with the crowd. That's kind of part of her job.
Exactly... wouldn't it be odd for someone in regular clothes to be hanging out with a bunch of seekers. That certainly wouldn't make her stick out like a sore thumb.
#128
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 02:22
mesmerizedish
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BrotherWarth wrote...
Asunder established that the Seeker's do have a uniform, and that the uniform is the same as what Leliana was wearing. Considering Asunder takes place after the conclusion of DA2 it is clearly a retcon. She was obviously supposed to be a Seeker in DA2 but the events of Asunder would have put her at odds with the Divine and the Chantry so they changed their minds after the fact.
You're going to have to source this.
There's no indication that Leliana was wearing Seeker armor.
#129
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 02:34
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BrotherWarth wrote...
whykikyouwhy wrote...
And I don't know that any of the Dragon Age novels are considered canon, btw.
They are.Rojahar wrote...
BrotherWarth wrote...
Rojahar wrote...
There
are non-military people who are put in military gear, like reporters,
CIA agents, and others who visit combat zones. Point is, just because
someone wear's the gear of an organization, does not necessarily mean
they are a member of that organization.
No one but
military personnel wears a military uniform. Reporters and agents from
other government agencies may be imbedded with soldiers, but they don't
wear the uniform.
They wear the gear though. We
only see Leliana in armor. It's not like she's wearing some Seeker dress
uniform. WKW already listed several possibilities. If you think someone
wearing something commonly associated with an organization means it is
some absolute 100% guarantee they're part of an organization, then
you're pretty naive.
The armor IS the uniform for Templars/Seekers.
And again, Bioware presented no reason within the game to doubt the imagery they presented. At the time we had no idea that the Seekers break away from the Chantry, and afaik they haven't said if Varric's interogation takes place before or after the events of Asunder. So there's no reason to assume Cassandra is of a different faction of Seekers. That means there's no reason to assume Leliana is infiltrating anything or pretending to be anyone.
Stop bending over backward to make sense of a retcon.
I like how saying how in this case it's probably a retcon, then agreeing with another poster that people who wear X organization's armor don't ALWAYS have to be part of that organization (could be infiltrating it, stolen, fake, borrowed, etc.) is me "bending over backwards to make sense of a retcon". Maybe you should calm down with the ranting and raving and go write in your diary. Point still stands, even if someone wears, let's say, what looks like a police uniform, it's not some 100% infalible guarantee that they're a cop, and there are any number of possibilities. I'm sorry for acknowledging 1% possibilities even exist, even if I don't think their likely, was viewed as such a threat to your nerd-raging. Go write a blog if you hate discussion.
#130
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 02:52
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Nerd-rage? Keep your platitudes to yourself please. You are bending over backward to make sense out of something that doesn't warrant it. Stories change. It happens all the time. Leliana even being a part of DA canon after Origins for many players is itself a retcon, but here we are.
The armor of the Seekers is made canon in Asunder. It is their official armor. The only variation among Seeker armor known to us being that of the Lord Seeker. There is no arguing that what Leliana was wearing at the end of DA2 was Seeker armor.
ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
BrotherWarth wrote...
Asunder established that the Seeker's do have a uniform, and that the uniform is the same as what Leliana was wearing. Considering Asunder takes place after the conclusion of DA2 it is clearly a retcon. She was obviously supposed to be a Seeker in DA2 but the events of Asunder would have put her at odds with the Divine and the Chantry so they changed their minds after the fact.
You're going to have to source this.
There's no indication that Leliana was wearing Seeker armor.
The armor of the Seekers is made canon in Asunder. It is their official armor. The only variation among Seeker armor known to us being that of the Lord Seeker. There is no arguing that what Leliana was wearing at the end of DA2 was Seeker armor.
#131
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 02:58
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Rojahar wrote...
There are non-military people who are put in military gear, like reporters, CIA agents, and others who visit combat zones. Point is, just because someone wear's the gear of an organization, does not necessarily mean they are a member of that organization.
However, in this specific scenario, I think the DA writers are making up details
like these as they go along. Whatever excuse they eventually come up with for why Leliana is in Seeker armor in DA2, I doubt they had that reason in mind in DA2, but that's really just a matter of trusting the writers.
For example, does anyone really think George Lucas had Jar Jar and Pod Racing planned out from the start, back when he was making the original trilogy, even though he says he had it all planned out. Yeah, he had some ideas back then, but it was nothing remotely like the final product.
BrotherWarth wrote...
Nerd-rage? Keep your platitudes to yourself please. You are bending over backward to make sense out of something that doesn't warrant it. Stories change. It happens all the time. Leliana even being a part of DA canon after Origins for many players is itself a retcon, but here we are.
Where did I say otherwise, and why are you nerdraging at me like a broken record and telling everyone but yourself to shut up?
Modifié par Rojahar, 18 mai 2012 - 02:59 .
#132
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 03:10
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BrotherWarth wrote...
ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
BrotherWarth wrote...
Asunder established that the Seeker's do have a uniform, and that the uniform is the same as what Leliana was wearing. Considering Asunder takes place after the conclusion of DA2 it is clearly a retcon. She was obviously supposed to be a Seeker in DA2 but the events of Asunder would have put her at odds with the Divine and the Chantry so they changed their minds after the fact.
You're going to have to source this.
There's no indication that Leliana was wearing Seeker armor.
The armor of the Seekers is made canon in Asunder. It is their official armor. The only variation among Seeker armor known to us being that of the Lord Seeker. There is no arguing that what Leliana was wearing at the end of DA2 was Seeker armor.
So Asunder was a picture book? I didn't know that! And saying "Asunder" is not a source. Page number, paragraph number. Quote it if you can.
Because so far, the only evidence that Leliana and Cassandra were wearing the official uniform of the Seekers is your unsourced claim.
#133
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 03:21
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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
So Asunder was a picture book? I didn't know that! And saying "Asunder" is not a source. Page number, paragraph number. Quote it if you can.
Because so far, the only evidence that Leliana and Cassandra were wearing the official uniform of the Seekers is your unsourced claim.
What good would that do? You don't have the book(you obviously haven't read it) so what would be the point of finding my copy in a mountain of books and essentially rereading it? You're the only one arguing that Casaandra and Leliana weren't wearing Seeker armor. Take the hint.
Rojahar wrote...
Where did I say otherwise, and why are you nerdraging at me like a broken record and telling everyone but yourself to shut up?
Stop saying nerd-rage. It's stupid. I'm calmly having a conversation with someone in the internet via keyboard.
And what you're doing is trying to pkay both sides of the argument. You can't say "Yeah, they just changed their minds. Buuuuut..." and then take offense when someone points out that any "Buuuuut..." is unneccesary and illogical.
#134
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 03:24
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BrotherWarth wrote...
ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
So Asunder was a picture book? I didn't know that! And saying "Asunder" is not a source. Page number, paragraph number. Quote it if you can.
Because so far, the only evidence that Leliana and Cassandra were wearing the official uniform of the Seekers is your unsourced claim.
What good would that do? You don't have the book(you obviously haven't read it) so what would be the point of finding my copy in a mountain of books and essentially rereading it? You're the only one arguing that Casaandra and Leliana weren't wearing Seeker armor. Take the hint.
So you're refusing to back up your statements. Noted.
#135
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 03:26
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BrotherWarth wrote...
ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
So Asunder was a picture book? I didn't know that! And saying "Asunder" is not a source. Page number, paragraph number. Quote it if you can.
Because so far, the only evidence that Leliana and Cassandra were wearing the official uniform of the Seekers is your unsourced claim.
What good would that do? You don't have the book(you obviously haven't read it) so what would be the point of finding my copy in a mountain of books and essentially rereading it? You're the only one arguing that Casaandra and Leliana weren't wearing Seeker armor. Take the hint.
The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim, not on the person questioning the claim. Since your primary argument revolves around the nature of the armor, you must supply evidence that only Seekers may wear such armor.
#136
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 03:29
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BrotherWarth wrote...
Stop saying nerd-rage. It's stupid. I'm calmly having a conversation with someone in the internet via keyboard.
And what you're doing is trying to pkay both sides of the argument. You can't say "Yeah, they just changed their minds. Buuuuut..." and then take offense when someone points out that any "Buuuuut..." is unneccesary and illogical.
How is it illogical to claim your belligerent statements aren't 100% factual and infallible like you keep claiming? You're the only one here ranting and raving, refusing to cite any sources, and telling everyone to shut up for daring to question you. How calm and intelligent of you. Like I said, if you hate discussion so much, and can't be bothered to back up your claims with facts instead of insults, then maybe you'd be happier writing a blog or hosting a cable news show, instead of participating in a forum.
Modifié par Rojahar, 18 mai 2012 - 03:33 .
#137
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 03:39
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I haven't told anyone to shut up. And anyone who's read Asunder can attest to the novel clearly stating, in vivid detail, that the armor we see in DA2 is the armor denoting a Seeker.
#138
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 03:43
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BrotherWarth wrote...
I haven't told anyone to shut up. And anyone who's read Asunder can attest to the novel clearly stating, in vivid detail, that the armor we see in DA2 is the armor denoting a Seeker.
And unless you can quote the passage in which this statement occurs, you're just blowing hot air.
#139
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:08
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Well if you do have a book and your so certain about it find the page and take a picture of it. Then it wouldn't matter who had the book.
And even if so Leliana wearing the armor doesn't prove that she was intended to be one rather then wearing it to blend in with the crowd.
And even if so Leliana wearing the armor doesn't prove that she was intended to be one rather then wearing it to blend in with the crowd.
Modifié par Lenimph, 18 mai 2012 - 04:23 .
#140
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:12
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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
BrotherWarth wrote...
I haven't told anyone to shut up. And anyone who's read Asunder can attest to the novel clearly stating, in vivid detail, that the armor we see in DA2 is the armor denoting a Seeker.
And unless you can quote the passage in which this statement occurs, you're just blowing hot air.
Oh for Christ's sake...
page 46
"The armor he wore was like a templar's, but it was charcoal black and emblazoned with a strange image that looked like the Chantry's sunburst but with an eye in the center."
That was the first mention of Seeker armor in the book. In this case specifically the Lord Seeker's armor. His armor and the armor of all Seekers is mentioned several more times throughout the book.
In the future when discussing things you know nothing about don't call someone who does know what he's talking about a liar.
Modifié par BrotherWarth, 18 mai 2012 - 04:19 .
#141
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:14
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I have the book here guys, let me copy it.
Cassandra slowly stripped Leliana of her black Seeker armor, which was worn by Seekers and no one else, to reveal the redhead's pale skin. The other woman sighed and rested her cheek on Cassandra's shoulder. They had risen early and rode for most of the day. The dust of the road lay heavily on them.
"Let's crawl in that bathtub," Cassandra said, "and do some nude romping."
"I thought you'd never ask," replied Leliana. She rose and tugged her companion to the steaming water.
Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 mai 2012 - 04:16 .
#142
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:17
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Lenimph wrote...
And even is so Leliana wearing the armor doesn't prove that she was intended to be one rather then wearing it to blend in with the crowd.
Again, bending over backward to make sense of something that doesn't warrant such logical maneuvering. The Seekers are an elite order acting as the Divine's investigators and operatives. Guess who else fits the bill? That's right, Leliana. But then what happened? Asunder put the Seekers at odds with the Divine since they break away from the Chantry to fight the mage rebellion. So to keep Leliana true to character they made her a non-Seeker operative of the Divine after the fact. Otherwise known as a retcon.
#143
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:17
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The closest thing in Asunder to claiming the seekers uniform was that Lambert had a charcoal black suit with a symbol of the sunburst with an eye in it. And later when the seekers came in to help annul the circle there were more men in charcoal black armor with Lambert as he strode in. I don't have the book now to quote or link a page number but they are there. If you have the book look for the part where Lambert is being introduced it should be there. As a side note all the seekers in Dawn Of The Seeker are wearing the same "style" of suit in DA2 with the black and eye in the sunburst. But it is no where stated in game or novel that Leliana is a seeker or that the seekers actually have a uniform exclusive to them.
Modifié par Tommyspa, 18 mai 2012 - 04:23 .
#144
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:18
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Maria Caliban wrote...
I have the book here guys, let me copy it.Cassandra slowly stripped Leliana of her black Seeker armor, which was worn by Seekers and no one else, to reveal the redhead's pale skin. The other woman sighed and rested her cheek on Cassandra's shoulder. They had risen early and rode for most of the day. The dust of the road lay heavily on them.
"Let's crawl in that bathtub," Cassandra said, "and do some nude romping."
"I thought you'd never ask," replied Leliana. She rose and tugged her companion to the steaming water.
*Furiously searches*
Man I got ripped off with my copy!
#145
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:21
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Too hot.Maria Caliban wrote...
I have the book here guys, let me copy it.Cassandra slowly stripped Leliana of her black Seeker armor, which was worn by Seekers and no one else, to reveal the redhead's pale skin. The other woman sighed and rested her cheek on Cassandra's shoulder. They had risen early and rode for most of the day. The dust of the road lay heavily on them.
"Let's crawl in that bathtub," Cassandra said, "and do some nude romping."
"I thought you'd never ask," replied Leliana. She rose and tugged her companion to the steaming water.
#146
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:22
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Tommyspa wrote...
The closest thing in Asunder to claiming the seekers uniform was that Lambert had a charcoal black suite with a symbol of the sunburst with an eye in it. And later when the seekers came in to help annul the circle there were more men in charcoal black armor with Lambert as he strode in. I don't have the book now to quote or link a page number but they are there. If you have the book look for the part where Lambert is being introduced it should be there. As a side note all the seekers in Dawn Of The Seeker are wearing the same "style" of suit in DA2 with the black and eye in the sunburst. But it is no where stated in game or novel that Leliana is a seeker or that the seekers actually have a uniform exclusive to them.
It is specifically stated in the book that Lambert's armor is different from the standard Seeker armor in a few small ways. That clearly means that the armor they wear is standard...
#147
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:25
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I do not see the words "seeker armor" all I see is that someone who is a seeker is wearing it.BrotherWarth wrote...
Tommyspa wrote...
The closest thing in Asunder to claiming the seekers uniform was that Lambert had a charcoal black suite with a symbol of the sunburst with an eye in it. And later when the seekers came in to help annul the circle there were more men in charcoal black armor with Lambert as he strode in. I don't have the book now to quote or link a page number but they are there. If you have the book look for the part where Lambert is being introduced it should be there. As a side note all the seekers in Dawn Of The Seeker are wearing the same "style" of suit in DA2 with the black and eye in the sunburst. But it is no where stated in game or novel that Leliana is a seeker or that the seekers actually have a uniform exclusive to them.
It is specifically stated in the book that Lambert's armor is different from the standard Seeker armor in a few small ways. That clearly means that the armor they wear is standard...
#148
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Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:28
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Is that another quote, or are you pulling that from the same quote you just gave? Because Templar armor =/= "the standard Seeker armor."BrotherWarth wrote...
It is specifically stated in the book that Lambert's armor is different from the standard Seeker armor in a few small ways. That clearly means that the armor they wear is standard...
Point out where it says that his armor is Seeker armor, as opposed to armor that may be used by any agents of the Chantry.
Modifié par Filament, 18 mai 2012 - 04:29 .
#149
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:28
Lenimph
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BrotherWarth wrote...
Again, bending over backward to make sense of something that doesn't warrant such logical maneuvering. The Seekers are an elite order acting as the Divine's investigators and operatives. Guess who else fits the bill? That's right, Leliana. But then what happened? Asunder put the Seekers at odds with the Divine since they break away from the Chantry to fight the mage rebellion. So to keep Leliana true to character they made her a non-Seeker operative of the Divine after the fact. Otherwise known as a retcon.
I don't see how it's bending over backward for Leliana to be wearing Seeker armor while she's possibly directing and communicating with a group of Seekers. Her skills as a bard and blending into a crowd is why she became the Divine's right hand. Plus we don't know if Asunder takes place before or after Varric's interrogation.
#150
Posté 18 mai 2012 - 04:29
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BrotherWarth wrote...
ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
BrotherWarth wrote...
I haven't told anyone to shut up. And anyone who's read Asunder can attest to the novel clearly stating, in vivid detail, that the armor we see in DA2 is the armor denoting a Seeker.
And unless you can quote the passage in which this statement occurs, you're just blowing hot air.
Oh for Christ's sake...
page 46
"The armor he wore was like a templar's, but it was charcoal black and emblazoned with a strange image that looked like the Chantry's sunburst but with an eye in the center."
That was the first mention of Seeker armor in the book. In this case specifically the Lord Seeker's armor. His armor and the armor of all Seekers is mentioned several more times throughout the book.
In the future when discussing things you know nothing about don't call someone who does know what he's talking about a liar.
I never called you a liar. I said you refused to support your claims.
That is not a mention of "Seeker armor." That is a mention of the armor worn by a Seeker. It no more indicates that that is "Seeker armor" than does Cassandra's declaration that she is a Seeker while wearing similar armor.
In the future when engaging in a passtime you know nothing about, don't tell someone who regularly exercises her logic and critical thinking muscles to "take the hint."
