243 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Depends really on the puzzle.

I wonder... is it possible to make a puzzle that has various ways of being solved?

No. Impossible. All things must only have one optimal answer. This does not compute.

[Bayz]

Rubik cube kind of Puzzle? Even then i think there are a limited number of responses...

Sudokus!!

[Fast Jimmy]

thats1evildude wrote...

There's always the Gordian Knot solution to puzzles.

I feel like that should be an option for all puzzles, to be honest.

Don't feel like moving X block to Y container to unlock Z door?

Have you mage blow a hole in the wall.


And then have the ensuing rubble block off a very nice, shiny piece of equipment stored in a now-unreachable chest.




Just like forcing players to combat-quest everything is bad, making players who only want to fight and button mash go through puzzles makes them... cranky.

So I say give a "if its in my way, break it" option for all those twitchy Dragon Age players who just want to get to the next fight and say "I don't want puzzles or dialogue!" Just make them pay for it each time, so they maybe will one day learn the lesson of patience and introspection.

And so I can wave my shiny piece of equipment in their faces!

[TEWR]

Il Divo wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People really only hated the FedEx quests not because of the lack of combat, but because Hawke knows who they go to without really doing much exploration.

which I'm fairly certain was your actual point. They were the very literal version of non-combat activities.

I'm almost confident that had they been Chanter's Board quests with a description of both the item, where to find said person, and a general idea of the area it was in; then barely anyone would've had a problem with it.

Even there, I'm not certain the Fed-Ex quests would have had the best reception. I fully support non-combat side quests, but I think they need to focus more on delivering a substantial motivation on why the player is doing what he is doing. The more involved the side quest, the more "natural" it feels. Personally, that was my problem with the Chanter's Board, FedEx quests, etc.

Maybe not the best reception, but they certainly would've made sense as to how Hawke knows who they go to.

And isn't there enough motivation in "MOAR gold, MOAR loot, and MOAR experience!"?

But to be serious, I agree more motivation is good.

[Firky]

I distinctly remember loving the Fed EX quests on nightmare, because I was THAT desperate for drops of xp and the next ability/cross-class combo. And some of the items you had to deliver were cool, in of themselves.

But, no. I'm not saying they are motivation for most people. (Just peculiar to the way I was experiencing DA2.)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Depends really on the puzzle.

I wonder... is it possible to make a puzzle that has various ways of being solved?

No. Impossible. All things must only have one optimal answer. This does not compute.

In Ultima 7: Serpent Isle there was a logic puzzle you needed to solve to get a key, which was sealed behind an energy field. There were two ways to get the key:

1. Solve the puzzle.
2. Cast Dispel Field.

[thats1evildude]

The only time I minded the FedEx quests was when the dialogue from the NPC didn't seem right. Otherwise, I just completed them as I was running around doing other stuff. Ocassionally they yielded amusing quest descriptions ("Bonwald has his shopping list. Tremble, oh Thedas").

[Fast Jimmy]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

In Ultima 7: Serpent Isle there was a logic puzzle you needed to solve to get a key, which was sealed behind an energy field. There were two ways to get the key:

1. Solve the puzzle.
2. Cast Dispel Field.

Heh. Ultima 7 was my favorite game of all time for a large chunk of my life.

The Black Gate and Serpent Isle are pinacles of computer RPGs. 

There was a bit of similar situation during the trial to join your clan in Serpent Isle. You could avoid the traps or... jsut run right through them! Killed most of your companions which you then had to sling over your shoulder, classic animation there) until you could go get them healed.

[Lithuasil]

No Puzzles. More extensive, more relevant dialogue (perhaps even a mechanic that lets you spent exp on meeting important npcs on the side to obtain unique information / curry favors) - absolutely.

But for the love of the maker, no puzzles.There's simply no reason for them to exist in-world. (Unless you're in the fade, fighting a riddler demon). In almost all cases, throughout all rpgs (Pc, tabletop and others) puzzles feel tacked on and outright crush the immersion.
For a cheap example - think Duke Prospers Vault in Mota. He has a plate that releases a trap - fair enough. But why on earth would he have a ludicrously elaborate way of escaping from his own security precautions? What purpose could possibly justify building and maintaining such a construct, other then to allow potential thieves to enter his vault, even after being trapped?

[Bayz]

Spending exp in dialogue? Hmmm...that sounds awfully anti grinding...do not want ><

[Fast Jimmy]

Bayz wrote...

Spending exp in dialogue? Hmmm...that sounds awfully anti grinding...do not want ><

I think she means something along the lines of a points system, where you can have relationship points for a particular person that you can cash in to do favors to avoid getting out of quests, or to have them complete tasks in order to fulfill a particular quest line.

Basically, this is to promote a sense of building up to having your dialogue option work, as opposed to saying "My speech skill is at a 100, I automatically win every dice roll just by selecting that line of dialogue."

[Bayz]

Hmm ok actually that might be cool. Specially if they add a "Faction relation" like system and stuff like that I can see that working.

Modifié par Bayz, 18 décembre 2011 - 02:25 .

[PaulSX]

yep, more puzzles and riddles will be welcome. I still love those riddles back in that old story-driven RPG masterpiece called Betrayal at Krondor

[alex90c]

Something like the Landsmeet in DA:O would be cool, where you have to pick the right dialogues to get the right result. Start whining about Ostagar and you won't win many people over, but bring up something like slavery in the Alienage and the nobility are disgusted at Loghain.

[MassStorm]

I HATE puzzles like the one we had on DAO to get Andraste ashes....NO Dammit do NOT want it..NO puzzles.

[jbrand2002uk]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People really only hated the FedEx quests not because of the lack of combat, but because Hawke knows who they go to without really doing much exploration.

which I'm fairly certain was your actual point. They were the very literal version of non-combat activities.

I'm almost confident that had they been Chanter's Board quests with a description of both the item, where to find said person, and a general idea of the area it was in; then barely anyone would've had a problem with it.

Even there, I'm not certain the Fed-Ex quests would have had the best reception. I fully support non-combat side quests, but I think they need to focus more on delivering a substantial motivation on why the player is doing what he is doing. The more involved the side quest, the more "natural" it feels. Personally, that was my problem with the Chanter's Board, FedEx quests, etc.

Maybe not the best reception, but they certainly would've made sense as to how Hawke knows who they go to.

And isn't there enough motivation in "MOAR gold, MOAR loot, and MOAR experience!"?

But to be serious, I agree more motivation is good.

Dont you know "Money makes the world go round" you you you you you you you(takes a deep breath,ehales loudly) communist :P

[Firky]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

In Ultima 7: Serpent Isle there was a logic puzzle you needed to solve to get a key, which was sealed behind an energy field. There were two ways to get the key:

1. Solve the puzzle.
2. Cast Dispel Field.

classic Ultima.

But, yeah. In Ultima VII, was it Alagnar's House (it might have been someone else) in which you had to get in via a system of levers. Some of them you couldn't get close to, so you had to use telekinesis to flip them. So it was like puzzle, combined with figuring out how puzzle met normal gameplay.

Then there were buildings on top of mountains that you could see for the first time while sailing over them on the magic carpet. So it's puzzles located in the world, which are revealed through exploration/gamplay and solved by .... Actually, I can't remember how you got into them. Perhaps it was a case of, once you know there is a building there, then you search the mountain for a hidden door. Can't recall.

Edit: PS. Modern fantasy RPGs need more telekinesis.

Modifié par Firky, 18 décembre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Firky wrote...

classic Ultima.

But, yeah. In Ultima VII, was it Alagnar's House (it might have been someone else) in which you had to get in via a system of levers. Some of them you couldn't get close to, so you had to use telekinesis to flip them. So it was like puzzle, combined with figuring out how puzzle met normal gameplay.

Then there were buildings on top of mountains that you could see for the first time while sailing over them on the magic carpet. So it's puzzles located in the world, which are revealed through exploration/gamplay and solved by .... Actually, I can't remember how you got into them. Perhaps it was a case of, once you know there is a building there, then you search the mountain for a hidden door. Can't recall.

Edit: PS. Modern fantasy RPGs need more telekinesis.

Hehe. Really, I just want more quests that reward you for lateral thinking. Sidequests don't have to be intricate to be clever, or boring because they're short. Succeeding for thinking outside the box and circumventing the obvious (usually tedious) solution is fun.

Avatar: .oO(Let's see...I can try to find a key for this magically locked door, or...I remember seeing a cannon on the battlements just back there. I wonder if the guards will mind if I 'borrow' it for a minute?)

[Firky]

classic.

[FaWa]

Urn of Sacred Ashes. Perfect balance of combat, puzzle, and dialogue.
Can every quest be like that?

[Lithuasil]

FaWa wrote...

Urn of Sacred Ashes. Perfect balance of combat, puzzle, and dialogue.
Can every quest be like that?

A completely tedious dungeon ~five times longer then it needed to be, little to no actual dialogue (aside from a puzzle that tests if you're still awake), and an incredibly stupid puzzle with zero significance and absolutely no reason to exist.

Yeah, no. I'd rather not have all quests look like that. Also - I'm still waiting. Having a locked door (those happen), and being able to solve it in a plethora of ways, from theft to bluffing to violence - that's one thing. But I've yet to hear a single reasonable explanation for lever / pressure plate puzzels.

(possibly excluding Vampires: Bloodlines, which did have them, but used them properly (and very, very rarely).

[RagingCyclone]

FaWa wrote...

Urn of Sacred Ashes. Perfect balance of combat, puzzle, and dialogue.
Can every quest be like that?

While I liked it for the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade feel it had, I wouldn't want every quest like that.