243 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lithuasil wrote...

More importantly - I applaud you, for doing what very, very few people in this discussion have the honesty to do - voicing the concern that in a skill-based game, you might not be able to keep up.

That's an important aspect of my complaint about combat. based on player skill.  But since that's not a univerally applicable problem, I typically frame it in terms of skill-based combat limiting the options to design a character who differs from the player.

In my case, I don't enjoy making quick decisions.  In the real world I find it almost never necessary to do so, and taking the time to make good decisions basically never has negative consequences.

But skill-based games are generally designed to require fast-pased decision-making.  And it's fine if the character finds himself in a world that requires fast-paced decision-making, because I can design a character who makes quick decisions.  But I myself cannot make quick decisions without expecting them to be poor decisions (all of my poorest decisions have been made too quickly), so I simply cannot enjoy a gameplay experience that requires rapid-fire decision-making.

Also, like many long-time gamers, my wrists and fingers don't work as well as they once did.  My characters should not be punished for that.

[Vaeliorin]

Lithuasil wrote...
the arbitrary barrier between me and my avatar

I think this line right here is the source of the disconnect between at least some of the pro-action people and the anti-action people.  My game character is not my avatar, but a complete separate fictional person, and therefore their skills should be completely unrelated to mine.

*shrug*  Personally, I just dislike action games.  I can beat Arkham Asylum and The Witcher 2, ME2 on Insanity, etc.  I'd still rather play a turn-based (not real-time with pause) game like Jagged Alliance 2.

[Realmzmaster]

simfamSP wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sorry, you are too young ( I assume)  to have senior moments.  But, I understand.

Too young? After twenty minuets of none stop sparring against someone twice your size, silly mistakes like the above will happen

And I haven't slept yet so expect more to come

I see! Which martial art are you engaging in?  In my younger days I practiced Shotokan karate for a time.

[Realmzmaster]

@simfamSP,

Ah! You box! What weight class?

But back to the topic. In DAO you could become Harrowmont's champion and compete. I would have like to have the option of watching the fights and betting on them as a way to raise funds. Even have the option of sponsoring one of your companions in a fight and betting on them. I know as a Bhelen supporter you could fight secretly in the arena, but you could not bet on yourself or other fights. The fight would not be to the death and the gamer would control the companion sent to fight. Other fights that you could bet on would be controlled by the game. Your character would gather information about each fight and decide which ones to bet on. The successful bet would give experience points or work to adding a point to intelligence or cunning.

Just a thought..

[AshenSugar]

What I want is simply to have options and choice within the game that lead to something other than endless combat time, after time after time....
 
In DA:II it always seemed to be the case that, regardless of what dialogue choices I made, regardless of my actions; almost all situations I encountered ended the same way - all were resolved by fighting and killing. This stuck me as extremely frustrating, and in many cases, immersion breaking.
 
Where were those tricky moral choices presented to me in DA:O? The ones in which it were possible to avoid combat via using my skills in diplomacy or intimidation.. but which might have other, not necessarily desirable consequences?
 
In so many situations within DA:II, I felt that I was not truly controlling my own character, as it was often impossible to get the result I wanted, being utterly unable to influence the pre-determined outcome of the scenario; reduced to a passive role, reacting to whatever was thrown at me. If I wanted that I'd have chosen to play an action game rather than an RPG.
 
In short. almost every encounter, regardless of how important or minor, gave me a choice of dialogue responses, but no real power; as invariably I would be attacked regardless of my choices, which ultimately made those 'choices' largely cosmetic.
 
 
In terms of none-combat orientated quests and  plot points, it's always important to be given a range of choices about how to resolve any given situation.
 
To take a simple scenario such as 'enter a building, retrieve an item'...
 
DA:II method:
Enter building, kill everything inside, grab item, fight your way out again.
.... repeat ad infinitum....
 
 
DA:Origins method:
Fight your way through the building, grab item...
or
Use diplomacy/intimidation to pursuade occupants to hand you the item
or
Go in undercover, disguised as one of the occupants, get hold of item via trickery, or subtlety.. escape the same way.
 
I don't personally think it's a particularly difficult development decision.

[Realmzmaster]

@AshenSugar,

Not totally true, depending on which companion is in your party different options can open up. Hawke can call on them to resolve the situation and it involves no fighting. Since this is in the no spoiler section I cannot state which quests or where those instances occur, but they are there.

Also the number of places you can use the DAO method in DAO is just about as limited as the instances I talk about in DA2.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 29 décembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[SmokePants]

It took me a frustrating hour to get that "optional" MotA puzzle done. If I tried it again, it would probably take me another hour, because I only have a vague grasp of the solution and more or less lucked into it. The thing is that "optional" isn't optional for everyone and some of us will bang our heads against a wall, cursing every breath, rather than feel like we're missing content.

The trick, I think, is to not make it obvious that we're missing things. I liked the Legacy beam puzzle, because there was one level of solution that progresses the game and then another, more advanced solution that is not readily apparent to the player. Whereas that really hard tile puzzle in MotA was just sitting there, with no purpose other than to entice players into committing self-flagellation.

[Realmzmaster]

SmokePants wrote...

It took me a frustrating hour to get that "optional" MotA puzzle done. If I tried it again, it would probably take me another hour, because I only have a vague grasp of the solution and more or less lucked into it. The thing is that "optional" isn't optional for everyone and some of us will bang our heads against a wall, cursing every breath, rather than feel like we're missing content.

The trick, I think, is to not make it obvious that we're missing things. I liked the Legacy beam puzzle, because there was one level of solution that progresses the game and then another, more advanced solution that is not readily apparent to the player. Whereas that really hard tile puzzle in MotA was just sitting there, with no purpose other than to entice players into committing self-flagellation.

If you went straight through the dungeon to the crack in the wall you never saw the tile puzzle. You only see the tile puzzle if you choose to go back to the vaults and explore. The tile puzzles are optional. No one can help you if you choose self-flagellation.

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

@AshenSugar,

Not totally true, depending on which companion is in your party different options can open up. Hawke can call on them to resolve the situation and it involves no fighting. Since this is in the no spoiler section I cannot state which quests or where those instances occur, but they are there.

Also the number of places you can use the DAO method in DAO is just about as limited as the instances I talk about in DA2.

I did like the few options DA2 gave you to have your companion step in and resolve and issue. My only problem was that it always had to a SPECIFIC companion for each encounter. While this makes sense in game, it would have been better if it was class specific and not CHARACTER specific.

For instance, if I needed to have Anders in my party to cast a spell to resolve a situation peacefully, I think Merril should be able to cast the same spell to avoid combat. Similarly, if Isabella is able to name drop some shaddy contacts that would scare off some thugs, I would think Varric would be able to as well. Note: These aren't DIRECT lifts from things that happen in game, but I tried to make them as close as possible without spoilers to show my logic.

Regardless, there would be nothing to make me think that one companion would have skills or knowledge about how to resolve a conflict peacefully over another before you get in the situation, so it is almost a roulette spin to find these. If this were to happen in future games, I'd like to see more of these instances, so its less like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Also, these options should give you better rewards XP-wise, since you forego any loot options without combat. I can't think of one time you can use this option where you would be genuinely avoiding a truly hard fight, so if you get little to no XP, no loot and don't skip anything that might be hard or lower your potion count, then what's the point?

[Dave of Canada]

I'd absolutely love to see the writing team tackle something like "Whodunit?" from Oblivion, possibly with the player playing the role of "victim". That quest in Oblivion had little to no combat and is possibly one of the most memorable.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 décembre 2011 - 01:41 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd absolutely love to see the writing team tackle something like "Whodunit?" from Oblivion, possibly with the player playing the role of "victim". That quest in Oblivion had little to no combat and is possibly one of the most memorable.

My money is on Varric. In the Hanged Man. With the... Bianca.

[Dave of Canada]

Leave it open with no killer actually being confirmed, drives players nuts and pretty much establishes that future replays won't simply make the player shrug and metagame who the actual killer is.

[In Exile]

It's been quite a while since I had the free time to post. Good to see that absolutely nothing changed in the intervening months that I've been away.

Non-combat quests are always a good thing, and provide more varied gameplay. Even if the combat system is very fun and dynamic (and I actually like DA2's gameplay unlike many), an excellent game always provides multiple avenues for the player.

The issue, I think, it the question of non-combat skills. I haven't found a game that hasn't implemented them in a way that's bad. Now I'm not talking about the actual number crunching interface - I think there's an excellent system out there for that (SPECIAL or a variant of it). The issue is how they actually play out in game. Aside from stealth, which if well implemented has its own sneaking mechanic and gameplay, talk skills or expertiese skills simply become a question of wining the random number generator (New Vegas was a lot like this), and DA:O was exactly this.

If there are going to be non-combat situations, there should be a more creative approach to non-combat skills. They should be front and center, and not a backseat to combat.

[byzantine horse]

(I haven't rea the entire thread, just clicked the Bioware-logo to see the more relevant parts of the conversation)

Hey Mr. Laidlaw, I know that you and the rest of the Bioware crew might be busy looking at Skyrim for inspiration for DA3, but may I raise a flag for Deus Ex: Human Revolution as well? Boss fights aside that game is stellar and it has a feature I am yet to see in a role-playing or action game, namely dialogue bosses. I mentioned this in another thread and I think that is something Bioware should really at least keep an eye on, it is an interesting concept and is an alternative to the usual content, and would certainly fit in any Bioware game if done right. I remember at least one similar case in Mass Effect 1 where your last dialogue choice with Saren had quite an impact, as if he was a dialogue boss, but that was locked to whether you were Paragon or Renegade and didn't involve any "detective work" of gauging the character's personality or opinions on the matter at hand.

Just an idea, I think Bioware could make some cool things with such a mechanic.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 31 décembre 2011 - 06:58 .

[In Exile]

DX:HR bosses are really fun (assuming you don't have the persuasion aug) because conversation because a viable element of gameplay. You don't just pick a line and win the conversation. That's what makes it great, and I've been clamouring for that to be a change to the dialogue system since forever.

[Annihilator27]

In Exile wrote...

DX:HR bosses are really fun (assuming you don't have the persuasion aug) because conversation because a viable element of gameplay. You don't just pick a line and win the conversation. That's what makes it great, and I've been clamouring for that to be a change to the dialogue system since forever.

They were fun but way too easy, You barely even have to lift a finge at times lol....Youtube.MoTA has my fav boss for DA so far.

[maxernst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But skill-based games are generally designed to require fast-pased decision-making.  And it's fine if the character finds himself in a world that requires fast-paced decision-making, because I can design a character who makes quick decisions.  But I myself cannot make quick decisions without expecting them to be poor decisions (all of my poorest decisions have been made too quickly), so I simply cannot enjoy a gameplay experience that requires rapid-fire decision-making.

Also, like many long-time gamers, my wrists and fingers don't work as well as they once did.  My characters should not be punished for that.

I sympathise with you Sylvius.  I can enjoy some reaction-based games if I can dumb down the difficulty on the fly and if the decision making required isn't too complex--as in most games where you control only a single character.  I'm finding DE:HR quite fun at the moment.  I can make quick decisions if I can focus on a single problem and don't have to multitask.  But typical RTS games are torture for me, and I found ME2 almost unplayable.

And I really dislike player skill tests that really wouldn't be testing for the character involved.  The most aggravating example of this is jumping-style puzzles.  In real life, if the distance of a jump isn't pushing the limits of your ability to make it, it's just not that hard to land where you want to because you can make adjustments in the air.  The problem of whoops overshot again or oh my angle is just slightly off is one created by the interface not by the difficulty of what's actually being attempted.  Nor are you likely to "miss" and fall off while trying to get onto a crate in real life. 

Another problem I have with player skill-based games is if something is almost possible, I get it into my head that I'm just not executing and I keep trying over and over to do something that I was never intended to do.  For some stupid reason, at the beginning of Skyrim, when you jump from the tower to a beam, I got it into my head that I had to get onto the roof of the next building rather than drop down into the room.  Yes, I realize this makes no sense if you're trying to get away from a dragon, but in my idiocy because  I could almost do it, I wasted a good fifteen minutes on many attempts at something that (if even possible) would have been pointless to succeed in.

Modifié par maxernst, 04 janvier 2012 - 05:54 .

[syllogi]

SmokePants wrote...

It took me a frustrating hour to get that "optional" MotA puzzle done. If I tried it again, it would probably take me another hour, because I only have a vague grasp of the solution and more or less lucked into it. The thing is that "optional" isn't optional for everyone and some of us will bang our heads against a wall, cursing every breath, rather than feel like we're missing content.

The trick, I think, is to not make it obvious that we're missing things. I liked the Legacy beam puzzle, because there was one level of solution that progresses the game and then another, more advanced solution that is not readily apparent to the player. Whereas that really hard tile puzzle in MotA was just sitting there, with no purpose other than to entice players into committing self-flagellation.

Although I LOVE puzzles in RPGs, and miss PC adventure games that had puzzles as a major component, I would not beat my head against a wall if I weren't enjoying a particular puzzle.  I first go online to find hints, and if that isn't working, I'll find a youtube video, and map out the solution in a notebook.  If I'm playing again months down the road, I can always refer back to the notebook, or try again with my vague idea of what I'm supposed to do.  Usually I don't even need the cheat sheet.

The reward for doing the tile puzzle in MotA wasn't even that great, especially since they reused models for the new armor, but I was glad it was there.  

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I hate the puzle quests, now some without combat where you had to rely on the various personalities and/or skills of companions and/or on convincing the right people of certain things, yes, but not those puzzles like in Legacy. I skip as much as i can of them, just get the doors open to move on and forget the supposed loot for fully solving the dumb things. Now if I had say go find a specific object for Larius so he would give me the stuff, okay but those fool power nexus puzzles stink IMO.

[Uccio]

I just recently replayed Planescape Torment and I have to say how delightful it was to solve a lot of the games issues just by talking.

[Realmzmaster]

Ukki wrote...

I just recently replayed Planescape Torment and I have to say how delightful it was to solve a lot of the games issues just by talking.

PST is a masterpiece in that regard. Unfortunately, not many others at the the time of release thought so. The game barely broke even. I would like to see more elements of PST included in the Dragon Age games.

The use of stealth in MotA was a step in the right direction. The puzzles in both Legacy and MotA showed a return to the puzzles found in DAO.