149 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaigen42]

It's all fun and games until they start having enemy mages use Mana Clash.

[RamsenC]

I wouldn't know, not a fan of WoW



I just mean two mages are enough to cover all the damage spells and CC you need, after that two melee destroyers are preferable.

[Mobisto]

During my first play through, I played an aoe heavy party on hard (ice + lightning storm + death cloud). It was difficult without the taunt + force field exploit. AoE spells are difficult to pull off in tight corners; archers and traps are tough to control; enemy mages can really ruin your day; boss battles are DIFFICULT with the small mana pool.





But my biggest grief with the party was that it wasn't fun. You need to micro manage your party A LOT. Combat = pause / put on hold / run away / unpause - pause / give orders / unpause - pause/ give orders / unpause...





Right now I'm going through nightmare with a rogue as main. Morrigan is the crowd controller (no damage aoe); Wynn is the healer set on healing everyone. Once you get your hand on a decent weapon with 2 rune slots or more, the rogue damage is down-right insane!

Combat = Sten taunts; Morrigan force-fields the big threat; rogue cleans house. I rarely even pause in normal fights now; and the game is much more enjoyable and is actually easier than my aoe party on hard.





So, yeah, go with your mages if you like to waste time in the pause screen. Try other formations if you want a fun game.

[Solwen_Polyhymnia]

I don't think the problem is that mage can be support/healer as much as some of the spells are broken and mage should be force to sacrifice some damage dealing ability for utility.



The broken spells obviously are force field and some of the arcane warrior spells that can give mage silly amount of armor.



The duration of some of the crowd control spells seems a touch excessive also especially when compared to its archery/melee counterpart. For instance, the cone of cold freeze component seem to last 3 times as long as dirty fighting. It is a cone so can affect more than one creature. Does damage and only a tier 2 spell. And of cause spells such as petrify and crushing prison are virtual death sentence to anything that is vulnerable to it. I haven't seen many things that can survive the entire duration of those spell once it is cast on them and is the subject of focus fire.



The damage dealing capacity of the mage seem to be excerbated by ability to have almost infinite mana potion and all those equipments that increase elemental damage by a certain percentage and vulnerability hex. I feel that the virtually unlimited supply of mana can be easily solved by adding more expensive components in the creation of mana potion. If it cause half a gold to make each lesser mana potion, I think it will make the trade off for large supply of mana more realistic.



I do feel that somebody in bioware need to sit down and compare the potential damage of an archer vs that of a mage. They both do range damage which is an advantage as it means that you can be doing damage while the rogue is busy running to get herself into position. The mage have more utility via buff, debuff, crowd control, AE damage and heal. If the mage can do more single target damage than something is really imbalanced. As mention before a mage can get gears that increase their damage by a flat percentage and can debuff resistence. Archery have neither of those ability.



I do think that separating the function of a mage into a healing/buffing mage and a damag/cc mage will neither solve the problem and likely makes the problem worse. It wouldn't do much to solve the problem because most of the over powered spells in the mage arsenal are not healing spells.The force field abuse doesn't require much healing than what can be provided by health potion. Cone of cold and fire ball are not healing spells. If you separate out the two function all you do is make it even more important that you have two mage type classes and limit on which companion you can take with you on your travel. For instance if you play a rogue, you will be require to bring a tank, a mage and a healer which mean you can't bring interesting character such as the dog or Leliana or Zevran. And in fact if you don't play a mage you will be almost required to take both Morrigan and Wynne under the propose "fix" by separating out the the various function into two classes.



Finally while I agree that the mage do appear to have some overpowered talents and having one or more them make this game a lot easier, I don;t think they are absolutely required at the normal setting. I was able to defeat the arch demon with only Shale, my bard/assassin rogue, and Leliana who was speced bard/ranger for much of the battle. I got very carelesss and let Wynne get very sun burned with the arch demon first breath attack so she was taken out very early in the battle.Admittedly Shale seem to be a stronger than normal companion.

[suzanne536]

I play with a tank, and 3 mages. I did make an interesting discovery I gave Morrigan a bow and some arrows, she seems quite able to use them in a fight as well as her mage abilities. Saves on her mana pool. I missed Lelliana. So we clear the dungeons, the I come back with Zheveron to unlock the chests.

[Khpuffy]

Using a rogue with Paralyze Runesx3 in Starfall sword. Riposte / dirty fighting. Maybe turn on Dual Striking.



Facestabs end lives. I quite enjoy my mages though. Usually keep Wynne around to heal Alister while I watch my character stab people in their eyes.

[nuculerman]

Riposte is a completely useless ability. It's resisted by every single enemy that's even remotely hard to kill. All it does is make enemies that are already easy to kill, slightly easier to kill.



Dual Striking is also a retarded ability. A rogue with paralyze runes, starfall sword, and riposte/dirty fighting in dual striking mode is nothing but an extremely nerfed dual wielding warrior with paralyze runes.



If you want to play an actually OPed rogue, get momentum, evasion, and max out assassin and duelist.



Seriously. My first rogue had aodh and axe of the grey with three paralyze runes, riposte and dirty fighting, and do you know what that did for me? It meant I had to use 6 healing pots to beat Loghain on easy.

[Osprey39]

Enuhal wrote...

In terms of singletarget-DPS, a dualwielding rogue is extremely good, possibly better than any mage can be.

It requires way more micromanagement than casting 3 Fireballs, though

This guy is bang on.  I played through the first time with a mage and he was pretty good although I didn't load up on the AE/Forcefield cheese and I didn't realize the mage tower had unlimited lyrium dust to make pots so it was actually challenging to me.  This time through I'm playing with a melee rogue and he is wayyyyyyy better than my mage was.  

Now granted, if you want to go full on cheeseball with the mages, you can't touch that but I kind of like the game to be challenging and fun so I play it without every conceivable cheesy tactic.  I'm level 10 with the rogue and that dragon in the Brecillian Forest ruins was cake this time around.  It was damn hard when I did it with the mage at about the same level.  The room where the little ghost kid is and you get mobbed by the skeletons was also stupidly easy with the rogue.  The little bastard can kill a white con mob in about 5 seconds with Momentum and his AE damage is pretty good too with bombs.

Most of all, the rogue is more fun than the mage was.  A lot more fun.

[Silensfurtim]

nuculerman wrote...

Riposte is a completely useless ability. It's resisted by every single enemy that's even remotely hard to kill. All it does is make enemies that are already easy to kill, slightly easier to kill.

Dual Striking is also a retarded ability. A rogue with paralyze runes, starfall sword, and riposte/dirty fighting in dual striking mode is nothing but an extremely nerfed dual wielding warrior with paralyze runes.

If you want to play an actually OPed rogue, get momentum, evasion, and max out assassin and duelist.

Seriously. My first rogue had aodh and axe of the grey with three paralyze runes, riposte and dirty fighting, and do you know what that did for me? It meant I had to use 6 healing pots to beat Loghain on easy.

i beg to differ. watch my rogue.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 24 novembre 2009 - 08:57 .

[Isaantia]

My first play through was with a human rogue. Duelist/Assassin spec. I DW with paralysis and slow on the daggers. Fights were crazy fun with her. Some bosses she was pretty useless on.



My 2nd play through was with a mage. It was pretty EZ mode. Towards the end I thought I'd try out the arcane warrior spec. That last talent is ridiculous! Nothing can hit you. I also had fun wearing full plate and carrying a shield.



You don't even need 3 mages. 1 mage speced right with AoEs can do it all. 3 mages seems like more trouble than its worth. I may go back and try playing tank and bring a rogue, morrigan and wynne along to see what happens.

[nuculerman]

Silensfurtim wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Riposte is a completely useless ability. It's resisted by every single enemy that's even remotely hard to kill. All it does is make enemies that are already easy to kill, slightly easier to kill.

Dual Striking is also a retarded ability. A rogue with paralyze runes, starfall sword, and riposte/dirty fighting in dual striking mode is nothing but an extremely nerfed dual wielding warrior with paralyze runes.

If you want to play an actually OPed rogue, get momentum, evasion, and max out assassin and duelist.

Seriously. My first rogue had aodh and axe of the grey with three paralyze runes, riposte and dirty fighting, and do you know what that did for me? It meant I had to use 6 healing pots to beat Loghain on easy.

i beg to differ. watch my rogue.

On which particular point?  Riposte doesn't work on Loghain the vast majority of the time.  And I don't even think you used it.  As for dual striking, you would have just killed him faster if you weren't in that mode.  Every single attack you had was a back stab which would be automatic criticals if you weren't in dual striking...

[soteria]

I think if they had kept in the tree affinity idea they had (the more talents you invest in a tree, the cheaper the spells get) it would have made mages more in-line with the other classes. Warriors and rogues have to choose a specialty, while mages can just cherry-pick the best spells.

[ronbo_san]

You guys are making me feel bad.  I can't even get through the Harrowing with my mage.  I keep getting killed almost immediately as I face the final demon.  I think I need more work with the controls.

[Mobisto]

nuculerman wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Riposte is a completely useless ability. It's resisted by every single enemy that's even remotely hard to kill. All it does is make enemies that are already easy to kill, slightly easier to kill.

Dual Striking is also a retarded ability. A rogue with paralyze runes, starfall sword, and riposte/dirty fighting in dual striking mode is nothing but an extremely nerfed dual wielding warrior with paralyze runes.

If you want to play an actually OPed rogue, get momentum, evasion, and max out assassin and duelist.

Seriously. My first rogue had aodh and axe of the grey with three paralyze runes, riposte and dirty fighting, and do you know what that did for me? It meant I had to use 6 healing pots to beat Loghain on easy.

i beg to differ. watch my rogue.

On which particular point?  Riposte doesn't work on Loghain the vast majority of the time.  And I don't even think you used it.  As for dual striking, you would have just killed him faster if you weren't in that mode.  Every single attack you had was a back stab which would be automatic criticals if you weren't in dual striking...

Surely, he did much better than you against Loghain!

[Kozuka78]

Just change forcefield so you cant cast it on allys. Problem solved. It still exists as a very effective long lasting form of crowd control.

[nuculerman]

Mobisto wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Riposte is a completely useless ability. It's resisted by every single enemy that's even remotely hard to kill. All it does is make enemies that are already easy to kill, slightly easier to kill.

Dual Striking is also a retarded ability. A rogue with paralyze runes, starfall sword, and riposte/dirty fighting in dual striking mode is nothing but an extremely nerfed dual wielding warrior with paralyze runes.

If you want to play an actually OPed rogue, get momentum, evasion, and max out assassin and duelist.

Seriously. My first rogue had aodh and axe of the grey with three paralyze runes, riposte and dirty fighting, and do you know what that did for me? It meant I had to use 6 healing pots to beat Loghain on easy.

i beg to differ. watch my rogue.

On which particular point?  Riposte doesn't work on Loghain the vast majority of the time.  And I don't even think you used it.  As for dual striking, you would have just killed him faster if you weren't in that mode.  Every single attack you had was a back stab which would be automatic criticals if you weren't in dual striking...

Surely, he did much better than you against Loghain!

Except he didn't use riposte, and I'm pretty sure he didn't even dual striking.  And I'm pretty sure he was a duelist and possibly an assassin.  Which means he doesn't disagree with anything I said but agrees with it.  He was a dual wield rogue using momentum and stealth... which ISN'T a nerfed dual wielding warrior.

It'd be like if I said, "the sky isn't green it's blue," and he replied "I disagree, watch this video of a blue sky."  

Ok...
My rogue got pwned by Lohgain because he had invested in riposte and dual mastery and not momentum.  Hence further proving my point.

[Mobisto]

nuculerman wrote...

Except he didn't use riposte, and I'm pretty sure he didn't even dual striking.  And I'm pretty sure he was a duelist and possibly an assassin.  Which means he doesn't disagree with anything I said but agrees with it.  He was a dual wield rogue using momentum and stealth... which ISN'T a nerfed dual wielding warrior.

It'd be like if I said, "the sky isn't green it's blue," and he replied "I disagree, watch this video of a blue sky."  

Ok...
My rogue got pwned by Lohgain because he had invested in riposte and dual mastery and not momentum.  Hence further proving my point.

He's an assasin alright; but he doesn't use anything special really, simply below-the-bell + dirty-fighting + combat stealth + momentum (total of 7 skill points).

Actually I can win against almost anything simply using dirty-fighting and combat stealth...


At the Landsmeet you should be level 15+; so it sounds to me that you screw up the rogue build more badly than just riposte and dual mastery!

[kingthrall]

mages are not overpowered, the list of spells is completley screwed up.



For starters, Cone of Cold, Force sheild are way too strong, chain lightning is a 4th teir spell but tempest is stronger, shape changing is not that efficent and you cant use potions in transformation ( but its funny that the wardog can ).



The heal sector the first tier heal is stronger than the 2nd and 3rd as it instantly heals compared to the slow regenetive rates.



I could go on, but someone seriously needs to re-write the spell book because the spells are totally inbalanced not only in damage but in the positioning of the tiers as well.



Also compared to baldurs gate spells there are like 3 times more spells in baldurs gate and nearly all of them are very very effective. In this game a handful of spells are awsome and the rest are either overkill or underpowered.



This is why i assume there are only 2 mages in the game and are harder to get together due to their beliefs as they are game makers.

[FedericoV]

Well talent trees are messed up a little bit but you should consider that DA:O's system is young and hasn't got 20 years of tests and balancing at his back like D&D... so the comparison is not very fair. I hope that with future iteration of the franchise the game system will improve thanks to the fans feedback.

Going back to the point, melee charachter if used properly are far from useless. But you have to micromanage them properly. I'm very happy with my main character (solid warrior/templar/champion with a lot of willpower and standard constitution to use most of the the combat move/power).

I see only two asimmetry that makes warrior and rogue look less powerful in combat if you confront them with mages: lyrium potion (no stamina potion) and spells that permit exploitation of the game mechanic since they allways work (CoC and Force Field basically... they should be fixed a little bit).

Moreover: everyone assume that mages needs micromanage since lots of their power require a target and/or are AoE. So they micromanage them. While less persons play warrior and rogue micromanaging them... and rely too much on autoattack and the tactic screen... so since you do not use each class to his full potential, warrior and rogue that rely on melee look weaker to many players who do not use them properly.

But mind, I do not think that it's a player's fault. The only real problem lies in gameplay... combat is really quick... quicker than BG...  and if you choose (like me) to use every member of the party to its fullest (at lest, I try so) you finish to pause every second loosing the beautiful animation and the flow of combat... unfortunately the tactic screen is a poor substitute of a friendlier game interface in my opinion.

Modifié par FedericoV, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:35 .

[Mobisto]

I think the main "problem" with melee is that most are cheap item-hoarding rpg players...



Invest in some early grand master runes (they are RECYCLABLE and not expensive). Stick one or two of those into a fast weapon and see how it goes.





For me, during the recharge time of winter's grasp, my rogue would have killed 2 or 3 white enemies already. Dirty fighting (and/or paralyze rune) + coup de grace + combat stealth also make the rogue a demi tank with insane dps as well,



Stop being cheap and buy some decent melee gears, you'll like it

[Joel171]

Zarenthar wrote...

I roll with 3 mages and a tank and tbh I only use the tank to round up everybody and taunt, then force field him while my 3 mages call down the wrath of AoE magic straight on the tank. There is absolutely no point in taking melee DPS or rogues and even archers for that matter because they all pale in comparison to the destructive might of magic.

My 3 mages are almost identical: spirit healer spec'd, heal, AoE heal, rez, fireball, cone of cold and arcane bolt. I just line my casters up nice and tight so they can chain CoC just about any1 who peels off Allastair.

So ya I just love the tip on the load screen saying" a stealthed attack is a guaranteed critical hit, provided the attack is successful"

I just enter a room and ROFLSTOMP everything by triple bolting fireballs GG. Allastair is but my pawn.

Come to think of it I should just go for blood magic and create a council of Apostate magi to decimate the Chantry and dominate the wolrd... Wait déja vu lol.

I think I fail at roleplaying.

Heh, that's funny. I feel the same way about mages.  I use one and that's just because I like Morrigan's character.  (And because I find her sexy in her outfit. rawr)

I just go in with a tank (allistair) my DW warrior (or rogue) and Sten or Dog and wipe the floor with most everything. Mages, to me, are useless for the most part. I mean, sure. Some battles are made easier with Morrigan specced as a control mage. I can shut down the entire denerim back allies with her and her blood control, sleep, or waking nightmare. A glyph of paralysis on top of a glyph of repulsion is a great ice breaker. I just don't NEED one. Spell slinging sissies, the lot of them.

So I understand what you're saying.

Modifié par Joel171, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:55 .

[Walina]

Zarenthar wrote...

I roll with 3 mages and a tank and tbh I only use the tank to round up everybody and taunt, then force field him while my 3 mages call down the wrath of AoE magic straight on the tank. There is absolutely no point in taking melee DPS or rogues and even archers for that matter because they all pale in comparison to the destructive might of magic.

My 3 mages are almost identical: spirit healer spec'd, heal, AoE heal, rez, fireball, cone of cold and arcane bolt. I just line my casters up nice and tight so they can chain CoC just about any1 who peels off Allastair.

So ya I just love the tip on the load screen saying" a stealthed attack is a guaranteed critical hit, provided the attack is successful"

I just enter a room and ROFLSTOMP everything by triple bolting fireballs GG. Allastair is but my pawn.

Come to think of it I should just go for blood magic and create a council of Apostate magi to decimate the Chantry and dominate the wolrd... Wait déja vu lol.

I think I fail at roleplaying.

I do not agree, mages become easely out ot mana and became useless if you don't have mana potions. Long dunjon like in dwarves dunjon is painful for mages.

I prefer sticking with melee character who can still dps and take less damage than mages.

[TanithAeyrs]

I guess I like to roleplay and have a fun party. I usually drag Morrigan along because cone of cold is good crowd control, however it does not work on Revenants or some of the other bosses. I have not given her force field, instead she uses cold based spells and hexes a lot. She has a lot of the entropy tree. My DW rogue does 36% of my party damage and rarely takes a hit (stealth is wonderful). I had trouble with Flemeth with Wynne in the party but I handled her nicely with Alistair, Sten, Shale and my rogue. I think it all depends on how you set your party up. I guess I am not gaming as much for max builds as for the story experience. I am playing on normal now, but will play on hard on my next play through. I think everyone finds something different they enjoy in the game.

[Zoe Dedweth]

Perfect party for me ?



character

alistair

lilliana

Wynne



Gives me a healer, a archer, a melee and whatever I want.

[Mobisto]

Here's my 3 dwarves party on nightmare (shale - dwarven spirit, dwarven rogue and Oghen). Wynn is set on auto regen at 90% health and heal at 50%.



On hard, dealing with these stalkers with a mage heavy party requires a lot of pausing. With a rogue, it's a lot faster