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The Chantry and the Circles in Thedas as a Narcissistic family system (and how I see it as affecting Anders’ character development, as well as Hawke’s role within the story).


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River5

River5
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First of all, what is a narcissistic family?

In essence, what we call a “narcissistic family” is a family where the needs of the parents (or sometimes, the
larger family system
) have precedence over the needs of their children (or the individuals in the system).

Whereas, in a healthy family, parents are expected to:
- provide love and positive reinforcements;
- allow their children to express their feelings and develop a sense of personal identity;
- encourage them to gain their autonomy and make decisions for themselves (while also being empathetic and respectful towards others);
- teach them to act responsibly, set healthy boundaries for themselves;
- and learn to trust in themselves and in others…

In the narcissistic families, children are taught that in order to be loved and gain approval, they must reach the parents’ expectations and cater to their family’s needs.  Love and approval is not freely given, it is earned, and
then kept only by remaining “good” and/or “obedient” (a parent’s love is conditional).  The personal expression of feelings and wants is not only discouraged, but seen as a threat; as the parents (or the family) must remain in control of the system at all times.

The children’s opinions are rarely acknowledged or validated (unless they concur with those of the parents or the system), and everything that the children do is evaluated in regards of “how will this affect the family”?  Personal successes and failures on the children’s part are measured by how much they will make the family look good, or bad.

For example, if a child misbehaves, the parent will immediately adopt a “How could you do this to me/us?” attitude; instead of trying to see what lead to the child’s behavior in the first place (perhaps someone is bullying him at school, and he was seeking to express his anger), and then, take appropriate steps to set limits for the child and correct that behavior, while also respecting his own reality and feelings.

In a narcissistic family system, children will be loved for what they do, but never quite seen or heard for who they are.  They are expected to conform without ever rebelling. 

Such families will often manage to completely stunt the development of the children’s sense of identity, to the point where they will see the world according to what people expect of them, and completely lose touch with that they personally want and feel, who they are, what they value.  They often become emotionally immature and
anxious, as they keep trying to hit moving targets (other people’s expectations, including those that are “implied”) throughout their lives in order to feel like they have some intrinsic worth. 

They become oversensitive to criticism, since they’ve been conditioned to believe that what they do and who they are are one and the same!  Therefore, criticizing their actions = criticizing their entire identity.  If their actions are described as “bad”, it means that they, themselves, are “bad”.  If their actions are described as “stupid”, it means that they are “stupid”.  If they make a mistake, it means that “they are the mistake”.  And so forth.

Some of them will grow up to develop a number of psychological afflictions…  Ex: anxiety disorders, depressions, borderline personality disorders, dependant or codependent personalities, etc.

Paradoxically, these same children will be quick to admire and devote themselves to their parents, as they never realized that things could be different.  They have been living in a “purple world” all their lives, so never in their minds did it ever occur to them that they could have chosen the color “green”.  Even once they’ve reached adulthood, they will keep the childlike belief that their parents only want what is best for them, and are acting to protect them and/or in their best interests.

If need be, they will defend their system of origin with all they’ve got…

Unless, of course, for one reason or another, the opportunity to perceive the world and their family of origin in a different light presents itself; and thus, circumstances allow them to “wake up” and understand that, not only what has been done to them was wrong and unacceptable, but there are other options…  They have other options.  They don’t have to submit to their family’s will to be their own person. Who and what they are isn’t measured by how devoted they are to others.  They matter, and they deserve to have their own voices heard.

However, in such a family (whether a nuclear one comprising only the 2 parents and their children, or an extended one), there often is some form of unspoken agreement “not to rock the boat”.  To ensure the family’s survival, everyone has adopted a dysfunctional way to cope with the situation and to follow the rules, while maintaining some semblance of peace and equilibrium.

Within that family, there are the:
- “controllers”, a.k.a. the ones with the narcissistic traits, those that set the rules that everyone must follow, and whose needs must be fulfilled in priority;
- “enablers”, a.k.a. those that urge the other members to “keep the peace” and avoid provoking the wrath of the “controllers”.  They are the seemingly gentle, compassionate parents/individuals that encourage everyone to be reasonable, and to keep playing their given roles without rebelling;
- and the “accessories” (often the children), that are only desirable so long as they follow the rules, keep their mouth shuts, and avoid making waves.

When one of the “accessories” to the family system decides that they don’t want to be mere objects serving the family’s needs and purposes anymore; but wish to become real, wholesome human beings instead of “human doings”, they become a threat to the peace and equilibrium of the system.

They create an imbalance that disturbs everyone else that has accepted that things are the way they are, and can’t be changed!  Immediately, the family (as an entity) will fight back, defend itself.  Either they will try to put a lot of pressure on the “rebel”, so that he/she returns to his/her subservient place (a.k.a. where the family believes that this individual naturally belongs).  Or they will end up viciously attacking him/her, seeking to annihilate the enemy, and often rejecting the “awakened” family member as if he/she had become a disease, or a cancer.

While playing “Dragon Age 2”, I had always felt that Anders was the real protagonist of the story…  The one whose story was being told…  And now I know why.

If we observe Thedas in the same way that we would look at a narcissitic family system:

A) The Chantry is the narcissistic mother.  She sets the rules, and makes sure that everyone under her care and authority respects her needs.

Mages are labeled as the “bad”, “dangerous” and potentially “rebellious” children; while regular folks are infantilized and treated as though they are unable to care for themselves…  To live and exist without their good and gentle mother’s protection.

“Your brothers and sisters are dangerous!  And only I, your kind, generous, and gentle mother, have the power required to protect you from them and control their actions.  Without the Chantry, the world would only be chaos and destruction.”

The mother is setting one group of children against the other to ensure that they don’t learn to communicate and co-exist on their own, thus remaining in absolute control by acting as protector and mediator for both sides.

One side, she will encourage and treat them as good, worthy children.  The more obedient to the Chantry’s will, the better they are.  The other side, she will make them feel worthless in a “why can’t you be more like your brothers and sisters?” kind of way.  The mother will thus justify her abuse of this group by always putting on the “bad children” the responsibility to “prove” that they can be just as good and obedient as her other children.

But, of course, since the mother is the only one that can be the judge of that, they (the mages) keep failing at
every attempt.  When they do succeed in gaining more rights or leeway…  When their efforts and contributions to society are finally recognized, it’s only because the mages’ needs coincide with the Chantry’s own needs (ex: they must look good and merciful at a time where people start to complain about their methods.  There is a political conflict to win where they need the mages’ power.  Etc.).  Not because mages are making any progress on the grand scale of things, or earning freedom from the Chantry.

The narcissistic mother is even taking it a step further…  If the children misbehave too much and are deemed too dangerous, she even has the right to end their very lives!  With their other brothers and sisters (the regular folks)’s blessing, of course.

Mages (the bad children) must conform and obey, or be destroyed. 

A “good mage” is a mage that doesn’t challenge the rules, keep to himself/herself, does what is expected of him/her, respects the Chantry and their guardians (Templars).  If you are a “good mage”, you don’t get beaten, your primary needs are met, you’re allowed to socialize and study your art, and you may even be allowed to go out to play with your brothers and sisters (like Wynne, for example).  The rest has very little importance.  Other than that, you don’t matter.

B) The Circles are the enabling fathers.  They may see that what the mother is doing is wrong on some
level.  However, they don’t believe that anything can be done to change the situation.  Emotionally immature and incomplete themselves, their sense of identity is too closely linked to the mother’s needs in order for them to take a stand, and really protect their children’s needs, rights, and interests.

After all, without the mother, there would never be a need for them.   Without the Chantry, the Circles (as they are) wouldn’t even exist!  With their very existence / way of life threatened, the fathers must make every effort to ensure that the system keeps working as it does.  That everyone knows their roles, and behave accordingly.

While they are minimally involved with the mother’s good children (regular folks)...  The fathers are responsible for making sure that the bad children (the mages) stay in line, and don’t rock the boat.

They will appear to be gentle, kind, consoling, and attentive to their children’s needs…  But, while doing so, they will kindly remind them never to provoke the mother’s anger.  They will urge them to try to draw as little attention as possible on themselves.  Keep their voices low, their eyes on the ground, be good and dutiful.  For if they do, they will be rewarded.  They will be “loved”, approved of, they will matter!  If they don’t, not only will they be punished, but they would “selfishly” put every other mage at risk!

For, of course, the “bad children” are not only to blame for their own mistreatments, each and every one of them are also to blame for the potential mistreatments of their siblings.  Mages carry the responsibility to make sure that everyone’s needs (a.k.a. the narcissistic family’s system’s needs) are met, even at the expense of their own.

C) The mages are the “accessories”.  They exist only to serve the needs of their mother and fathers, and meet expectations.  As long as they conform and avoid rebellion, their primary needs are met, peace is kept, and they are “safe”.

If they dare develop their own sense of self and autonomy, make demands for themselves, try to break away from their “family of origin”, etc.  They will be punished for daring to venture outside what is deemed “acceptable”.

Stuck within this system, some of them will:
- develop self-esteem problems, ex: believe that they truly are bad, and deserve to be punished for the sins of their predecessors;
- lose the ability to feel any empathy (since no one ever bothered to teach them what it truly means), and become abusers themselves (ex: trying to gain power for themselves while not caring what could be the cost to others,
seeking revenge for what was done to them, etc.
);
- rebel in a way that is self-destructive (ex: dealing with demons, using sex as a way to get “love” and be in contact with others, while fearing true emotional intimacy, provoking Templars in the hopes of getting attention (any type will do!), trying to take their own lives, etc.);
- grow to become irresponsible adults unable to face the consequences of their choices and actions;
- etc.

Some of them will manage to be happy and appear well adapted, but it is most likely because they have accepted that things are as they are, never will be changed, and are thus trying to make the most of it.  Some will also excel at meeting the system’s needs and will become over-achievers, champions of the mother and fathers.

D) Anders is the awakened child.  When we first meet him, Anders is a very immature, incomplete individual.  His preferred way of dealing with feelings, pains, problems, challenges and responsibilities is to avoid them (run away!).

He initiates contact with others through humor and shows a promiscuous behavior.  However, he will also remain very snarky and emotionally keep people at arm’s length.  He’s afraid to get too close, has learned not to trust in himself and others, and has erected a pretty solid system of barriers around himself.

He has a carefully crafted “front” that he presents to the world, but inside, he lacks any clear definition.  I don’t even believe that he knows who he truly is by then.

He connects with the Warden because, although he was somehow “forced” to join the order (it was either that, or going back to the Circle, possibly to get executed), he/she is the first to see him as something else than a “mage”, a “mistake”, and ask him questions about what he thinks and/or wants.

The Warden is creating an opportunity for Anders to become more than what’s always been expected of him.  To
learn about the world through a different set of glasses, and come to a better understanding of how things work outside of the Circle.  What his possibilities are.  See that the world around him doesn’t have to be all “purple”…  The color green also exists!

“Children” that were thus abused, once they start understanding how their family of origin worked, and how wrong things really were, will naturally go through the stages of the grief (often moving back and forth between them).

Denial:  In order to survive in a narcissistic family environment, the child had to believe the lie.  Deny that things were really that bad, adopt the enabling fathers’ point of view, and try his/her best to conform to the system while trying to avoid seeing that there was something deeply wrong within it.  Children of such systems need to convince themselves that their family is fulfilling their needs for a time; otherwise they would probably despair and die (at least, on a psychological level).  How can the self survive in a place where children have become invisible, and nothing they are or desire truly matters?

Anger:  This is the appropriate, normal, and healthy emotional response that children from a narcissistic family will feel when they finally realize that their emotional needs were never met by their family of origin, and that this has affected their lives in very severe and adverse ways.  The children will feel anger and often rage towards their mother and fathers for allowing such self-destructive patterns to develop in their minds, and never having cared for their children’s emotional well-being at all.  After having been forced to remain completely stuck and utterly
“invisible” for such a long time, the slowly emerging self is screaming, and it wants out!  It screams for the recognition of the emotional, psychological, and sometimes physical abuses it was forced to endure at the hands of his mother and fathers, and demands justice.  That the family system takes responsibility for their actions.

Bargaining:  At the same time, most will keep hoping that things will change.  That somehow, their mother and their fathers can be reasoned with.  That there is a way to make them see the pain and destruction that they are causing to their children, and appeal to their compassion.  They fail to understand that in order to do so, their mother and their fathers have to be able to see that something is wrong with them, with the system itself.  In a truly narcissistic system, sadly, there is no room for such understanding.  The (dysfunctional) system “works”, and “peace” must be preserved at all costs.  Others must change in order to meet the system’s needs, not the other way around.  Hoping for any change from within is sadly a complete, hopeless waste of time.

Depression:  This generally occurs shortly before the acceptance stage.  Once the child truly understands that nothing he or she can say or do will ever change his mother and fathers, and make them love and/or approve of their children.  That the narcissistic system is so deeply set and self-sufficient by now, that any attempt to bargain or reason with it is lost.  The “awakened child” has to mourn his vision and expectations of achieving any collaboration and mutual respect of each other’s needs within his family of origin.  It can’t happen, because the system lacks the ability for change from within.  The mother and fathers feel no inner motivation or obligation to change their ways, as they truly believe that theirs is the only right way to do things.  As such, their children exist
only as utilitarian tools serving a bigger purpose…  Theirs (the mother’s, a.k.a. the Chantry’s in this case).  Letting go of the hope that things with their “family” can get better, can also make one feel like he or she has personally
failed in saving his “family”.

Acceptance: The children have come to realize and accept that their narcissistic mother truly lacks the ability to feel any genuine empathy or love for her children, and that they will never get the respect and approbation they so crave from her (the Chantry), no matter how well they behave.  The only moments where they’ve had the feeling that they seemed to be making some progress and learning to understand / respect each other is when the children’s needs met with their mother’s needs.  The mother can’t change from within.  The only thing the children can do is develop their own identities, and refuse to keep meeting their mother’s needs.  Acquire their autonomy.

I put these stages in this specific order because this is how Anders seems to move during the course of the “Dragon Age” games.

Stages 1 and 2 (denial and anger) occurred during Anders’ stay at the Circle, the course of “Dragon Age Awakening”, and his joining with Justice.

It also explains in part why the spirit of Justice fully manifests when Anders briefly returns to his “anger” stage; as the desire for justice and recognition from the victim is closely linked with this emotion.  Anders didn’t have “too much anger” in him.  As a matter of fact, it is his (appropriate, normal, and healthy) anger that probably caused him to seek justice for all mages to begin with.  The need for justice almost always comes from anger.

So while Anders says that his anger made Justice more “vengeful”…  Justice’s presence within his mind and body is probably what caused his anger to intensify and take center stage just as well!

Of course, as the typical child from a narcissistic family, Anders is quick to take the blame for everything that goes “wrong” in his life, instead of trying to share responsibilities.  To believe there was something wrong with him that caused Justice to change.  That he had “too much anger in him”, making him “bad” and “unworthy” of being a host to Justice, somehow.

Hawke’s attitude and acceptance / rejection of Anders’ joining with Justice is, ultimately, what will decide whether Anders will successfully merge with Justice and integrate the spirit within his own identity; or will perceive this side of himself as an “abomination”, and split both identities within.  (But we’ll return to that later).

Stage 3 (bargaining) happens more or less in Act I and II, up until the “Dissent” quest.  Anders is: compulsively writing manifestos; trying to show the world how mages can make a positive contribution to society
by running a free clinic in Darktown; being heavily involved in the mages underground (a resistance movement); trying to show the world what’s wrong; working hard to gather support from his “sisters” and “brothers” (mages and non-mages); etc.  He’s still hoping that his mother and fathers can be convinced to listen, and that the change he so desperately craves can occur peacefully.  He’s still trying to prove his worth and gather love through what he
does, rather than who he is.  But the real Anders is slowly emerging and defining himself.  Or, if you don’t support him, Anders is slowly beginning to create two distinct identities (Anders and Vengeance) within the same body.

Stage 4 (depression) occurs in Act II and III, from the quest “Dissent” to “Justice”, approximately.  You hear Anders saying things such as “I can’t go on like this”, and “our cause is nearly lost”.  He’s starting to understand and accept that his mother and fathers can’t be reasoned with, and that mages can never acquire their freedom through peaceful negotiations, or by being “good examples” (a.k.a. acting accordingly to the Chantry’s and the Circles’ expectations).  He is losing hope of ever seeing his mother and fathers  ever listening to their children’s voices, and making any effort to understand their plight.   Somehow, he still feels responsible for failing to demonstrate to them how their violence is destroying the very lives they have sworn to protect.

Stage 5 (acceptance) occurs between the quest “Justice”, and continues to develop until the very end of the game, where Anders has finally completed his journey towards adulthood and autonomy either successfully (friendship path, or rivalry without trying to convince Anders that joining with Justice was wrong), or not (rivalry path where Anders has been convinced that Justice became a demon by his fault).

This is where Hawke truly plays the most important role.

If you (as Hawke) keep trying to convince Anders that he is wrong, and that his mother and fathers are right…  If you become an “enabler” for the “narcissistic family system” by encouraging him to defer to his “family of origin” ’s wisdom and set of rules.  If you adopt the “mages must prove that they are worthy in order to receive any external validation and approval from their mother, fathers, brothers and sisters” ’s vision…  If you entertain for him the myth that his “narcissistic family system” can be changed through patience, negotiation, and mutual collaboration…

Then all you will achieve with Anders is succeeding in making him feel more and more inadequate as a human being, encourage him to lose his fragile sense of self even further, and reinforce the internal splitting between the different parts of himself.  He will fail to integrate Justice as being part of his own identity, creating 2 Anders. 
1. The codependent, self loathing, irresponsible, insecure victim (of Justice, the Chantry, the Circles, the Wardens, and so forth!) Anders. 
2. “Vengeance”, a.k.a. the blending of the spirit of Justice with the part of himself that has been constantly been repressed and denied existence…  And is now understandably filled with rage and anger!

Furthermore, Anders will fail to become an adult and take any responsibility for his actions during the quest “The Last Straw”.  He will put all the blame on “Vengeance”, and ask to be killed because he has failed to “master the part of himself that is filled with anger” (thus, is perceived as “wrong”, “unwanted”, and “inappropriate”).  He will act as a submissive, powerless victim.

However, if you support him and make him understand that he never did anything wrong to deserve how they have treated him as a child.  That what the Chantry and the Circles did to him (and other mages) is wrong and
unacceptable.  If you validate his feelings and perceptions regarding his abusive “family of origin”, encourage him to express his thoughts and opinions on the subject.  If you give him some healthy room to vent, and be truly seen and heard by someone who genuinely cares for him as an individual, not only for what he can do.  If you show Anders that no matter what he does, you still love him for who he is, and that you believe in him and his abilities as a person, not only as a mage.

You will allow him to heal, and Anders’ own sense of self will not only strengthen, but he will also eventually succeed in integrating the spirit of Justice as being a part of his very identity.  He will grow to become more assertive, confident, and will take a stand against his “all-powerful family”, directly confronting them.

After having finally understood (much to his chagrin) that the system itself can’t be changed through patience, negotiation, and mutual collaboration, he will find the courage to oppose their power in the only way that can create a shift strong enough to put a stop to the cycle of violence.

i.e. Disrupting the alliance between the controlling mother and the enabling fathers, thus breaking the dysfunctional peace and equilibrium that allowed the abuses to take place without anyone opposing them.

Following the destruction of the Chantry, he will readily express regret for the nature of his actions, while also staying firm in his beliefs and motives.  As a fully autonomous adult, he is not trying to set blame on anyone but himself, and is ready to face the consequences of his actions.  Justice and him are “one”.  Anders is “one”.  He is finally whole and complete!  He’s no longer running or capitulating to escape his responsibilities, or even trying to deny who and what he is.  Instead of only “reacting” to the abuse, he is taking direct actions to stop it.

If he is rejected by all of his brothers and sisters (on both sides), hunted down, shunned, and hated for doing so, then so be it!  If they don’t understand and ask that he forfeits his life for his actions, he’s even at peace with that.  Either way, he has already won.

Not the war, not the mages’ freedom.  Anders has won himself.  His “family of origin” will have failed in destroying everything that makes him who he is.  He will have refused to submit to his mother and fathers by taking upon himself the guilt of a bunch of people (the mages before him that have historically represented a danger) that have absolutely nothing to do with who he is, and whose actions he could never have influenced even if he had wished to.

He’s done believing the lies that they have been trying to project on him; fitting in the mold, and accepting the roles that he has been given.  Anders now is, as simple as that.

In the end, “Dragon Age 2” ends up being all about Anders’ journey towards adulthood…  Or his failure to ever free himself from his “narcissisitic family of origin”.

With Hawke either acting as:
1. an enabler for the mother and fathers;
2. a confused, indoctrinated sibling going “Wait!  He’s disrupting our (dysfunctional) peace and equilibrium through rebellion and violence (funny how people are willing to tolerate the violence that is keeping the narcissistic system together and seemingly “peaceful”, but will readily condemn anyone taking the necessary means to stop it)!  How dare he!”
3. a narcissist himself, by somehow believing that everyone should always defer to him for decision making, and feeling hurt and betrayed by Anders for having made this decision on his own;
4. a supportive friend or lover that is empathic, sees the manipulative and narcissistic nature of the Chantry and the Circles without trying to make excuses for them; and is willing to understand the abuses that mages, and every people in Thedas (those that are infantilized are not being respected either) suffer at their hands.

Hawke can’t stop Anders and Justice from completing their task…  However, he can decide whether or not Anders will come out of the experience stronger for it, or completely destroyed…  And whether or not he is going to be part of the problem (the narcissistic family system), or the solution (breaking and opposing the cycle of violence through resistance).

In the movie “The Matrix”, for example, the protagonists are sadly often forced to kill the minds of the very people they are trying to save in order to protect themselves, and make sure that their rebellion succeeds.  In “Stargate”, the rebelling Jaffas have to kill some of their brothers and sisters that still see the Goa’uld as their Gods.

I see Anders’ actions, though terrible, as no different when we measure them against the strength of the enemy he was trying to oppose.

Anders’ full rebellion started in violence, it’s true...

But the negative “peace” offered by the Chantry and the Circles was already over saturated with violence.  It was a one sided war on an imaginary enemy (the wickedness of all mages) with no army to oppose them.

So, violence being already a huge part of both the initial problem, does Hawke value:

Autonomy, responsibility, and freedom.
Or
Slavery, unaccountability, and oppression.

How far is he/she willing to go to obtain it?  How much is worth sacrificing to this cause?  Will he/she fear and fight change (a.k.a. fight for restoring order, and the status quo), or embrace it (a.k.a. help mages and everyone else in Thedas liberate themselves from their oppressors)?

While I’ve seen many complain how Hawke, despite his “Champion of Kirkwall” ’s status, had virtually no power to influence or change anything and to stop the war from happening.  I believe this was probably one of the most realistic approaches for the game, especially within a narcissistic family system context.

After all, who is Hawke, but one of the mother (and perhaps fathers, if he is a mage)’s children?

Whether he is among the “good children” (regular folks), or “bad children” (mages), the mother will only allow him/her to wield some power and superior position over his brothers and sisters, as long as doing so also serves her own interests.

Did Hawke truly expect more from a narcissistic mother?  Was he/she under the impression that his/her opinion accounted for anything to her, if they do not concord with the mother (Chantry)’s own agenda?

Why in the world would Meredith (controller), Elthina (enabler), or even Orsino (enabler, despite his brief episodes where he seems to try to resist the controller) would allow him/her the power to actually change things in Kirkwall?

They must seek to control Hawke and the way that the population perceives their Champion, of course.  They have to make Hawke believe that his/her opinions matter to them, and make a public show of it; all the while tightening their stranglehold over Kirkwall’s population and its mages.  While they praise Hawke for his/her efforts in keeping the peace, for example, people aren’t paying as much attention to the mother (Chantry) and fathers (Circles)’s own actions, nor truly seeking to oppose them.

Besides, they are projecting their own responsibilities on the Champion.  He/she is utilitarian, a tool, an “accessory”.

I believe this may even be one of the reasons why Anders purposely kept Hawke out of the loop regarding his plans.

I wonder how he/she would have reacted if Anders had gone to him/her and said:

“Hey Hawke…  By the way, I just want you to know that neither Meredith, Orsino, Elthina, nor anyone of influence in this town actually cares about what you want or how you feel.  And the more you try to change things positively by setting an example…  The more you try to negotiate, and the more you collaborate with them…  Well, the more your opinions are being completely disregarded, and you are being used.  The last 10 years spent in Kirkwall where you’ve tried to do some good and change things from within have more or less been an utter waste of time. 

While the ones controlling the city have allowed things to get better for you personally, everything else has gotten worse.  You lack the influence to change anything, because the ones in control will never let you do so.

The more powerful you get, the more they’ll try to make you adopt their points of view and values through different means of seduction.  The more you behave according to their needs, the more positive reinforcements and praises you’ll receive.  They’ll even actively seek your opinion and involve you in situations of important decision making.

However, if you start rocking the boat a bit too hard, they’ll make sure to try to isolate you from politics by giving you a bunch of more important matters to deal with, for example, and keeping you busy.  Meanwhile, they might start spreading rumors, making you look bad or dangerous, expressing doubts on your motivations, in order to make you gradually lose the people’s support.  They will project their own faults on you; always put you in a situations where you must constantly justify your action, and gradually take away everything you have been given.

The more you try to negotiate, the worse it’ll be.”

Hmmm…  Would Hawke have been ready to wake up and understand this?  Or will he/she have told Anders that he’s only being paranoid, exaggerating, and tried for many more years to still to bring about change in Kirkwall in a peaceful manner (remain in the denial stage)?

Anders did what he had to do in order to set things in motion.  And sadly enough, no matter how much he loved (or cared for) Hawke and truly did wish to trust him/her, Hawke’s position within the city made him/her an ally as well as a liability.

Anders chose to give his cause (that is, in many ways, representative of who he is) precedence over his own life, and feelings.

And, in doing so, he actually gave Hawke the opportunity to free himself/herself from his/her own mother and fathers’ control, prevent them (Meredith, Elthina, and Orsino) from being able to manipulate him/her any further, and put the power to really change and influence things in Thedas back in the Champion’s hands.

As for Anders, well…  He’s already won (or lost, if he’s been rivaled and encouraged to lose all faith in his cause and himself) and, in many ways, has completed his own Journey.

However, I am curious to see how he will keep evolving as a character, and what his fate will be if Hawke chose to let him live.  How he and Justice will adapt to what comes next.  Hopefully, the matter will be further addressed by the writers in one way or another…

If not, I’m definitely grateful for them having created such a rich and interesting character, and for the wonderful emotional ride!  Bravo!  :D

Modifié par River5, 16 décembre 2011 - 10:12 .


#2
Bayz

Bayz
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[quote]River5 wrote...

A) The Chantry is the narcissistic mother.  She sets the rules, and makes sure that everyone under her care and authority respects her needs.

[/quote]

Yeah well except when doing so is not convenient for individuals in power. Tevinter created their own Chantry just because they could and people like Vaughn are not very respectful of Chantry sisters making elven weddings...

It depends on the place but the Chantry is as a whole used as a way to control people, just another tool. It is ok to pretend you obey and respects her rules, but just when it is convenient.

[quote]River5 wrote...
Mages are labeled as the “bad”, “dangerous” and potentially “rebellious” children; while regular folks are infantilized and treated as though they are unable to care for themselves…  To live and exist without their good and gentle mother’s protection.

“Your brothers and sisters are dangerous!  And only I, your kind, generous, and gentle mother, have the power required to protect you from them and control their actions.  Without the Chantry, the world would only be chaos and destruction.”[/quote]

The chantry doesn't striclty controls the Circles, the templars do. In some places one thing can mean the other but look at how Meredith doesn't seem to care too much about what Elthina has to say. She tends to keep herself under her approval, but she is pushing also her own agenda, with things like stopping the New Viscount's elections and so.

Technically they should be the same as one is in theory the army of the other, but as with the chantry it always boils down on the individuals that are in charge of respective organizations. And after what happened in Kirkwall, even more now.

[quote]River5 wrote...
The mother is setting one group of children against the other to ensure that they don’t learn to communicate and co-exist on their own, thus remaining in absolute control by acting as protector and mediator for both sides.

One side, she will encourage and treat them as good, worthy children.  The more obedient to the Chantry’s will, the better they are.  The other side, she will make them feel worthless in a “why can’t you be more like your brothers and sisters?” kind of way.  The mother will thus justify her abuse of this group by always putting on the “bad children” the responsibility to “prove” that they can be just as good and obedient as her other children.[/quote]

Doesn't seem to me that the chantry treats mages as that at all. If it where as you say, the rite of tranquility would be enforced always and it is only in some cases. The Chantry seems to be more concerned about mages going out and summoning demons to the world than on coercing their freedom just because. It is not as if they couldn't just dispense tranquility to everyone and anybody would give a **** outside the circles.

[quote]River5 wrote...
But, of course, since the mother is the only one that can be the judge of that, they (the mages) keep failing at
every attempt.  When they do succeed in gaining more rights or leeway…  When their efforts and contributions to society are finally recognized, it’s only because the mages’ needs coincide with the Chantry’s own needs (ex: they must look good and merciful at a time where people start to complain about their methods.  There is a political conflict to win where they need the mages’ power.  Etc.).  Not because mages are making any progress on the grand scale of things, or earning freedom from the Chantry.[/quote]

Their efforts and contributions are recognized by society, specially enchantments and poultices. It doesn't look to me that the Chantry tries to stop that or undermine it...

[quote]River5 wrote...
The narcissistic mother is even taking it a step further…  If the children misbehave too much and are deemed too dangerous, she even has the right to end their very lives!  With their other brothers and sisters (the regular folks)’s blessing, of course.[/quote]

Again it seems to depend more on the Knight Commander of the Templars than on the Grand Clerics. I know some ask to the Gran Clerics but it seems to me to be more out of courtesy than actual authority as both Meredith and Gregoir call for it and nobody seems to blink an eye.

[quote]River5 wrote...
Mages (the bad children) must conform and obey, or be destroyed. 

A “good mage” is a mage that doesn’t challenge the rules, keep to himself/herself, does what is expected of him/her, respects the Chantry and their guardians (Templars).  If you are a “good mage”, you don’t get beaten, your primary needs are met, you’re allowed to socialize and study your art, and you may even be allowed to go out to play with your brothers and sisters (like Wynne, for example).  The rest has very little importance.  Other than that, you don’t matter.[/quote]

A good mage is a mage that doesn't get caught challenging the rules. Again the templars tend to be equally vicious if they find a Chantry sister helping a bloodmage on her own will, see mage Origin.

[quote]River5 wrote...
B) The Circles are the enabling fathers.  They may see that what the mother is doing is wrong on some
level.  However, they don’t believe that anything can be done to change the situation.  Emotionally immature and incomplete themselves, their sense of identity is too closely linked to the mother’s needs in order for them to take a stand, and really protect their children’s needs, rights, and interests.[/quote]

And it should be this way, for they were constructs of the Chantry to help them cater the mages and at least allow them to live without being all tranquil or die, and teaching the ones that can be trusted to use their Maker given gift and study it to better serve their country in time of need.

What on Tevinter seems to be the privilege of the wealthy or the main families and their proteges, the Chantry offers to everybody without looking at their background.

[quote]River5 wrote...
After all, without the mother, there would never be a need for them.   Without the Chantry, the Circles (as they are) wouldn’t even exist!  With their very existence / way of life threatened, the fathers must make every effort to ensure that the system keeps working as it does.  That everyone knows their roles, and behave accordingly.

While they are minimally involved with the mother’s good children (regular folks)...  The fathers are responsible for making sure that the bad children (the mages) stay in line, and don’t rock the boat.[/quote]

And are ultimately responsible for tranquiling them or killing them as it seems. They seem to be the ones with the real authority as i pointed out before.


[quote]River5 wrote...
They will appear to be gentle, kind, consoling, and attentive to their children’s needs…  But, while doing so, they will kindly remind them never to provoke the mother’s anger.  They will urge them to try to draw as little attention as possible on themselves.  Keep their voices low, their eyes on the ground, be good and dutiful.  For if they do, they will be rewarded.  They will be “loved”, approved of, they will matter!  If they don’t, not only will they be punished, but they would “selfishly” put every other mage at risk![/quote]

Again doesn't seem to be so. The templars are not having more rights than the mages at all, they make life with them, and share their jails. The mages only can go out when the State demands them to, the Templars, only some can go out if the mages are called. Some mages can go out and hunt apostates but still is limited to when they are called. They go out hunt down apostates and come back home.

Even worse as how the Templars are all junkies addicted to Lyrium, they are even more prisioners within the Chantry than the mages themselves, at least technically, as there are always workarounds to get Lyrium.

[quote]River5 wrote...
For, of course, the “bad children” are not only to blame for their own mistreatments, each and every one of them are also to blame for the potential mistreatments of their siblings.  Mages carry the responsibility to make sure that everyone’s needs (a.k.a. the narcissistic family’s system’s needs) are met, even at the expense of their own.[/quote]

Again the necessities of the State, yes. But so do every other commoner in Thedas. And Commoners are not usually protected by armored templars as mages technically are, they are given an axe, a couple of padded clothes and expected to kill stuff with it, name it other states, noblemen that looked funny to your lord or monsters.

[quote]River5 wrote...
C) The mages are the “accessories”.  They exist only to serve the needs of their mother and fathers, and meet expectations.  As long as they conform and avoid rebellion, their primary needs are met, peace is kept, and they are “safe”.[/quote]

Again no, the Chantry and the Templars don't need the mages, they could do fine just making every last of them tranquil by default, the Templars wouldn't be needed and I suspect the decission will be regarded with joy amongst the people's of Thedas. But obvoiusly that would also mean that King\\Duke\\whatever X will lose his people of mass destruction and he might consider then that following the "Chantry rules" isn't worthy anymore so...
 
[quote]River5 wrote...
If they dare develop their own sense of self and autonomy, make demands for themselves, try to break away from their “family of origin”, etc.  They will be punished for daring to venture outside what is deemed “acceptable”.[/quote]

Wynne, Irving amongst others seemed to be as possessing a huge sense of self autonomy. In Origins you see Alistair asking a mage to go and speak with one of the camp's mothers and he, although at the end accepted, could have tell her to ****** off as they were under the king's orders.

[quote]River5 wrote...
Some of them will manage to be happy and appear well adapted, but it is most likely because they have accepted that things are as they are, never will be changed, and are thus trying to make the most of it.  Some will also excel at meeting the system’s needs and will become over-achievers, champions of the mother and fathers.[/quote]

Most will be happy as seeing how most (as in 99%) of the ones that break from it become abominations. Count Libertarians (including your mage characters) that you have seen in Origins\\DA2 that are NOT abominations or bloodmages that try to kill everything. Good, not needing even one hand huh? Now count the ones that ARE.

You see, I play mages, and blood mages actually most of the time and I am a Libertarian but Ithat's just because I believe that if the Mage's Collective were given enough support from the State, the circles wouldn't be needed, given that the Mage's Collective doesn't seem to do it i do believe that mages should stay then in the Circles for now. But we are working on it.

[quote]River5 wrote...
D) Anders is the awakened child.  When we first meet him, Anders is a very immature, incomplete individual.  His preferred way of dealing with feelings, pains, problems, challenges and responsibilities is to avoid them (run away!).

He initiates contact with others through humor and shows a promiscuous behavior.  However, he will also remain very snarky and emotionally keep people at arm’s length.  He’s afraid to get too close, has learned not to trust in himself and others, and has erected a pretty solid system of barriers around himself.

He has a carefully crafted “front” that he presents to the world, but inside, he lacks any clear definition.  I don’t even believe that he knows who he truly is by then.

He connects with the Warden because, although he was somehow “forced” to join the order (it was either that, or going back to the Circle, possibly to get executed), he/she is the first to see him as something else than a “mage”, a “mistake”, and ask him questions about what he thinks and/or wants.

The Warden is creating an opportunity for Anders to become more than what’s always been expected of him.  To
learn about the world through a different set of glasses, and come to a better understanding of how things work outside of the Circle.
  What his possibilities are.  See that the world around him doesn’t have to be all “purple”…  The color green also exists![/quote]

Then he got bored and scaped his duties. My warden executed Morrigan the first time for leaving the group on wartime after telling her that she will not have sexy time with her love interest, if she found out what Anders had done in Kirkwall, just by the fact he scaped his duties, she will have his ass.

[quote]River5 wrote...
Stages 1 and 2 (denial and anger) occurred during Anders’ stay at the Circle, the course of “Dragon Age Awakening”, and his joining with Justice.

It also explains in part why the spirit of Justice fully manifests when
Anders briefly returns to his “anger” stage; as the desire for justice
and recognition from the victim is closely linked with this emotion. 
Anders didn’t have “too much anger” in him.  As a matter of fact, it is
his (appropriate, normal, and healthy) anger that probably caused him
to seek justice for all mages to begin with.  The need for justice
almost always comes from anger.[/quote]

He doesn't seem in Awakening to be too much into this denial thing of yours...he is quite anti Chantry all over. And abominations tend to let the demons they have inside take over when the human can't control itself anymore, be it for fear, anger or whatever, is when they revert to primal states that the spirit within takes over.

[quote]River5 wrote...
So while Anders says that his anger made Justice more “vengeful”… 
Justice’s presence within his mind and body is probably what caused his
anger to intensify and take center stage just as well!

Of course,
as the typical child from a narcissistic family, Anders is quick to
take the blame for everything that goes “wrong” in his life, instead of
trying to share responsibilities.  To believe there was something wrong
with him that caused Justice to change.  That he had “too much anger in
him”, making him “bad” and “unworthy” of being a host to Justice,
somehow.

Hawke’s attitude and acceptance / rejection of Anders’
joining with Justice is, ultimately, what will decide whether Anders
will successfully merge with Justice and integrate the spirit within his
own identity; or will perceive this side of himself as an
“abomination”, and split both identities within.  (But we’ll return to
that later).
[/quote]

Except that it is as him said. He had a strong bias against the circle and the chantry and justice picked right upon that. We see another abomination from a "beningn" spirit in Wynne and she doesn't seem to have that "your mother sucks ****s in hell" moments as Anders does. Keep in mind though that Anders is not just an abomination, he also has the Warden's taint spreading all over his body and possibly screwing up with Justice as much as Ander's bias does (in Lore it is said that the taint can slowly drive you mad, or so the Wardens said to the Ash Warriors anyway, but it is a possiblity as the Wardens can hear the Calling)

[quote]River5 wrote...
Stage 3 (bargaining) happens more or less in Act I and II, up until the “Dissent” quest.  Anders is: compulsively writing manifestos; trying to show the world how mages can make a positive contribution to society
by running a free clinic in Darktown; being heavily involved in the mages underground (a resistance movement); trying to show the world what’s wrong; working hard to gather support from his “sisters” and “brothers” (mages and non-mages); etc.  He’s still hoping that his mother and fathers can be convinced to listen, and that the change he so desperately craves can occur peacefully.  He’s still trying to prove his worth and gather love through what he
does, rather than who he is.  But the real Anders is slowly emerging and defining himself.  Or, if you don’t support him, Anders is slowly beginning to create two distinct identities (Anders and Vengeance) within the same body.[/quote]

Well i supported him and the mage's cause. My father was an apostate and was fine so...still he blew up the bloody chantry without telling me and Vengeance was still appearing despite my support.

[quote]River5 wrote...
Stage 4 (depression) occurs in Act II and III, from the quest “Dissent” to “Justice”, approximately.  You hear Anders saying things such as “I can’t go on like this”, and “our cause is nearly lost”.  He’s starting to understand and accept that his mother and fathers can’t be reasoned with, and that mages can never acquire their freedom through peaceful negotiations, or by being “good examples” (a.k.a. acting accordingly to the Chantry’s and the Circles’ expectations).  He is losing hope of ever seeing his mother and fathers  ever listening to their children’s voices, and making any effort to understand their plight.   Somehow, he still feels responsible for failing to demonstrate to them how their violence is destroying the very lives they have sworn to protect.[/quote]

Point becomes moot after how he kills a templar out of sheer rage, actually illustrating the Chantry's point quite nicely.

[quote]River5 wrote...
Stage 5 (acceptance) occurs between the quest “Justice”, and continues to develop until the very end of the game, where Anders has finally completed his journey towards adulthood and autonomy either successfully (friendship path, or rivalry without trying to convince Anders that joining with Justice was wrong), or not (rivalry path where Anders has been convinced that Justice became a demon by his fault).[/quote]

OR he was overtaken by Vengeance's twisted, uninformed and terribly biased sense of Justice and did what the abomination within made him to. I had top Anders relation and still had to ninja knife him because his moral choices were terribly terribly wrong, despite his cause being kind of just. He was part of what strengthens the Chantry and the Circle at the eyes of the people. He provoked a war, trying to justify him is like justify terrorism elsewhere.

Points become moot when they are reinforced by violence. Always.


[quote]River5 wrote...
This is where Hawke truly plays the most important role.

If you (as Hawke) keep trying to convince Anders that he is wrong, and that his mother and fathers are right…  If you become an “enabler” for the “narcissistic family system” by encouraging him to defer to his “family of origin” ’s wisdom and set of rules.  If you adopt the “mages must prove that they are worthy in order to receive any external validation and approval from their mother, fathers, brothers and sisters” ’s vision…  If you entertain for him the myth that his “narcissistic family system” can be changed through patience, negotiation, and mutual collaboration…

Then all you will achieve with Anders is succeeding in making him feel more and more inadequate as a human being, encourage him to lose his fragile sense of self even further, and reinforce the internal splitting between the different parts of himself.  He will fail to integrate Justice as being part of his own identity, creating 2 Anders. 
1. The codependent, self loathing, irresponsible, insecure victim (of Justice, the Chantry, the Circles, the Wardens, and so forth!) Anders. 
2. “Vengeance”, a.k.a. the blending of the spirit of Justice with the part of himself that has been constantly been repressed and denied existence…  And is now understandably filled with rage and anger!

Furthermore, Anders will fail to become an adult and take any responsibility for his actions during the quest “The Last Straw”.  He will put all the blame on “Vengeance”, and ask to be killed because he has failed to “master the part of himself that is filled with anger” (thus, is perceived as “wrong”, “unwanted”, and “inappropriate”).  He will act as a submissive, powerless victim.

However, if you support him and make him understand that he never did anything wrong to deserve how they have treated him as a child.  That what the Chantry and the Circles did to him (and other mages) is wrong and
unacceptable.  If you validate his feelings and perceptions regarding his abusive “family of origin”, encourage him to express his thoughts and opinions on the subject.  If you give him some healthy room to vent, and be truly seen and heard by someone who genuinely cares for him as an individual, not only for what he can do.  If you show Anders that no matter what he does, you still love him for who he is, and that you believe in him and his abilities as a person, not only as a mage.[/quote]

Problem being, that he actually did wrong. Look, the middle east has been plundered and raped by the west for ages, and they have the rights to be angry at us, but when vent their anger on blowing up innocents that had nothing to do with it they lose the moral highground. Anders didn't blow up the Templars quarters, didn't plot Meredith's assassination on hopes that Elthina would bring somebody that could be more empathetic to the mages, he killed the only one that had not done anything against them.

He killed the most simpathetyc person in the Chantry to his cause, the only friend the mages could find outside. Nice way to work out a revolution bro, by giving to the public opinion the reinforcement that mages are monsters.;)

Because you know, terror is the only way that people would get on your side am I right?

[quote]River5 wrote...
You will allow him to heal, and Anders’ own sense of self will not only strengthen, but he will also eventually succeed in integrating the spirit of Justice as being a part of his very identity.  He will grow to become more assertive, confident, and will take a stand against his “all-powerful family”, directly confronting them.[/quote]

Nope, more on the light of, you will reinforce a narcissistic psycopath's sense of self worth and give him the indirect message that killing innocents for a good cause is allright. I mean Charles Manson's girlfriends said that he was a wonderful person too and that we just had to hear him singing, so hey, YMMV right?

NO not right.

[quote]River5 wrote...
After having finally understood (much to his chagrin) that the system itself can’t be changed through patience, negotiation, and mutual collaboration, he will find the courage to oppose their power in the only way that can create a shift strong enough to put a stop to the cycle of violence.[/quote]

Which is funny because, I seem to have perceived the circle of violence between Templars and Mages to SCALATE instead after his actions.

[quote]River5 wrote...
Following the destruction of the Chantry, he will readily express regret for the nature of his actions, while also staying firm in his beliefs and motives.  As a fully autonomous adult, he is not trying to set blame on anyone but himself, and is ready to face the consequences of his actions.  Justice and him are “one”.  Anders is “one”.  He is finally whole and complete!  He’s no longer running or capitulating to escape his responsibilities, or even trying to deny who and what he is.  Instead of only “reacting” to the abuse, he is taking direct actions to stop it.[/quote]

Or he is actually aware that it is not courage what made him do it, but Vengeance taking control, both are one because of how Vengeance uses him and takes control to further what it actually believes is right, which is twisted due to Anders views.

Justice doesn't understand the material world's rules, doesn't get why demons are killed on sight and stuff like that, the same way it doesn't understand death...all the info he gets is through Christoph and Anders, Christoph being a Gray Warden couldn't give it much information outside the Darkspawn and hints at his personal life. Anders on the other hand, feeded him by six years filled of experiences.

He knows that it is wrong, but he knows that Vengeance would try to step up and take it over because it is the only way it can do it. After all, it does only understand "fight" it doesn't understands "kill" so to it is ok killing Elthina as it is fighting Elthina to him...I don't know if I am clear in this.

[quote]River5 wrote...
If he is rejected by all of his brothers and sisters (on both sides), hunted down, shunned, and hated for doing so, then so be it!  If they don’t understand and ask that he forfeits his life for his actions, he’s even at peace with that.  Either way, he has already won.

Not the war, not the mages’ freedom.  Anders has won himself.  His “family of origin” will have failed in destroying everything that makes him who he is.  He will have refused to submit to his mother and fathers by taking upon himself the guilt of a bunch of people (the mages before him that have historically represented a danger) that have absolutely nothing to do with who he is, and whose actions he could never have influenced even if he had wished to.[/quote]

And it must be very important, judging for the huge ammount of people who died for him to win himself right? I mean, the guys at Columbine killed most of their College, but at least they are the ones laughing now right? and that is the important...because the rest of people were bullies who were belliting them and there is no better way to gain confidence on oneself than commiting mass murder obviously. It is the most adult way too.

/sarcasm mode off

[quote]River5 wrote...

In the end, “Dragon Age 2” ends up being all about Anders’ journey towards adulthood…  Or his failure to ever free himself from his “narcissisitic family of origin”.[/quote]

That's...chapter 3. I don't think Anders genocidical quest for adulthood had anything to do on Hawke getting rich after the deep roads expedition or in getting rid of the Qunari from the city...

[quote]River5 wrote...
Hawke can’t stop Anders and Justice from completing their task…  However, he can decide whether or not Anders will come out of the experience stronger for it, or completely destroyed…  And whether or not he is going to be part of the problem (the narcissistic family system), or the solution (breaking and opposing the cycle of violence through resistance).[/quote]

That is reinforcing that provoking a war that could end up potentially make the protagonist having to kill many of his friends as well as his only remaining family member was ok because he rediscovered himself. I mean you could pay him a trip to the Himalayas but where is the fun on that? You don't get to kill people then and he might just get bored on the way and leave, or have justice taking over and killing the Dalai Lama.

[quote]River5 wrote...
In the movie “The Matrix”, for example, the protagonists are sadly often forced to kill the minds of the very people they are trying to save in order to protect themselves, and make sure that their rebellion succeeds.  In “Stargate”, the rebelling Jaffas have to kill some of their brothers and sisters that still see the Goa’uld as their Gods.[/quote]

And yet they didn't provoked mass murdering war to do so in either case. The thing was to awaken as many humans as possible and in the Goa uld example, to kill the ones that were voluntarily reinforcing the explotation of the Jaffas.

Anders does not attack the Templars, who are the ones reinforcing the explotation of the mages according to him. He attacks the one only person that was attempting to avoid the conflict. A conflict that yes, could have ended with the mages taking control of Kirkwall, but also with the Templars mass executing all the mages there.

And giving how the normal commoner on Thedas regards the mages, who do you think the majority of the population will side with in the onflict? That means killing off most of the Thedan population in the revolution, but it is fine because Anders had found himself right?


[quote]River5 wrote...
I see Anders’ actions, though terrible, as no different when we measure them against the strength of the enemy he was trying to oppose.

Anders’ full rebellion started in violence, it’s true...

But the negative “peace” offered by the Chantry and the Circles was already over saturated with violence.  It was a one sided war on an imaginary enemy (the wickedness of all mages) with no army to oppose them.[/quote]

Again wrong. The Chantry has the total support on the population to get rid of the mages for arcane purposes all together. But it doesn't.

[quote]River5 wrote...
So, violence being already a huge part of both the initial problem, does Hawke value:

Autonomy, responsibility, and freedom.
Or
Slavery, unaccountability, and oppression.[/quote]

Does Hawke value being used to start a war in a conflict that, things be told, not even most of the mages seem to agree with? if you like fantasy, read A Song of Ice and Fire, there is a part where Danereys frees all the slaves on a city, do you know what said slaves do? resell themselves in order to live, as freedom was actually killing them of starvation.

"Freeing" people is ok, but what when people just doesn't want to be freed? What when people wants to earn their freedom slowly but steady? Do we really have to impose our values of freedom on everybody else just because we believe that "we are right" even if that means the slaughtering of potentially million of innocents?

[quote]River5 wrote...
How far is he/she willing to go to obtain it?  How much is worth sacrificing to this cause?  Will he/she fear and fight change (a.k.a. fight for restoring order, and the status quo), or embrace it (a.k.a. help mages and everyone else in Thedas liberate themselves from their oppressors)?[/quote]

Is he\\she changing his view on the conflic one bit if he\\she didn't get anders as LI? if so in which way will he\\she swing? Will he\\she see all mages as monsters or will try to correct things him\\herself as much as he\\she can to undertake a compromise with the Chantry?

[quote]River5 wrote...
...
[/quote]

Or maybe he\\she was nothing but a tool to everyone seen as how everyone seems to just use him\\her to advance their agendas...on practically everything.

#3
Blacklash93

Blacklash93
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My god... Even the title is TL;DR!

#4
Plaintiff

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I don't have much to say, except that I completely agree. This sums up exactly how I feel about Anders and the Chantry/Circle conflict, but I never had this psychological family model to compare it to before.

I was quite happy when the Chantry was destroyed and Elthina was killed. It was pretty clear to me that her claim of neutrality was pretty bogus. She's not innocent in this conflict, she is not neutral and she is certainly not sympathetic to mages. She's a passive-aggressive, manipulative ****, and if you ask me she got what she had coming.

The Chantry as a whole (and Elthina, as its representative for Kirkwall) has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. It uses fear and misinformation to pit the mages and regular citizenry against each other, distracting them from the fact that the Chantry itself is and always has been the problem.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 décembre 2011 - 02:13 .


#5
Heimdall

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Wow, once again I am surprised at the lengths people will go to cast the actions of Anders and the lot of mages in a black and white contrast that simply does not exist.

Plaintiff said...

I was quite happy when the Chantry was destroyed and Elthina was killed. It was pretty clear to me that her claim of neutrality was pretty bogus. She's not innocent in this conflict, she is not neutral and she is certainly not sympathetic to mages. She's a passive-aggressive, manipulative ****, and if you ask me she got what she had coming.

You do realize that the mages represented a fraction of Kirkwall's population right? You do realize that Elthina is extremely aware that her power over Meredith, commander of the largest armed force in the city, is only as real as Meredith's willingness to listen to her? You do realize that if she pushed Meredith too far Meredith would outright rebel and go along with the rite of annulment Elthina has been denying her? You do realize that any conflict within the city would cause massive destruction and death amongst the population, right? You do understand that her duty, as she says herself, is to the people of Kirkwall, her flock, and she wishes to prevent them from becoming victims of a war between mages and Templars? Honestly, people seem to forget that Thedas has a large population most of which are neither Templars or mages. And when war happens, regardless of goal and self righteous motivations, the common people are the ones that suffer.

#6
Plaintiff

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Wow, once again I am surprised at the lengths people will go to cast the actions of Anders and the lot of mages in a black and white contrast that simply does not exist.

Plaintiff said...

I was quite happy when the Chantry was destroyed and Elthina was killed. It was pretty clear to me that her claim of neutrality was pretty bogus. She's not innocent in this conflict, she is not neutral and she is certainly not sympathetic to mages. She's a passive-aggressive, manipulative ****, and if you ask me she got what she had coming.

You do realize that the mages represented a fraction of Kirkwall's population right? You do realize that Elthina is extremely aware that her power over Meredith, commander of the largest armed force in the city, is only as real as Meredith's willingness to listen to her? You do realize that if she pushed Meredith too far Meredith would outright rebel and go along with the rite of annulment Elthina has been denying her? You do realize that any conflict within the city would cause massive destruction and death amongst the population, right? You do understand that her duty, as she says herself, is to the people of Kirkwall, her flock, and she wishes to prevent them from becoming victims of a war between mages and Templars? Honestly, people seem to forget that Thedas has a large population most of which are neither Templars or mages. And when war happens, regardless of goal and self righteous motivations, the common people are the ones that suffer.

None of that justifies her failure to act. Meredith was terrorizing the regular citizenry of Kirkwall already. If Elthina's duty is to the people of Kirkwall, then refusing to face Meredith head-on means she has failed that duty already. She should be standing up, not backing down. If Meredith isn't willing to listen, Elthina should have ****ing made her listen, because that is her ****ing job.

If Meredith was going to go ahead and annul the Circle without permission, and Elthina ever planned to try to prevent that in the first place, she should have gone down to the Gallows and led the charge against her. She should've fought. She claims she stayed in Kirkwall because her duty was to help Kirkwall. In that case, maybe she should've actually helped Kirkwall instead of standing around picking at her navel. She might as well have ****ed off when the Divine told her to because she didn't do anybody any good by staying.

If she was genuinely afraid of Meredith and wanted her gone, she could've taken it up wth Leliana when she came on order of the Divine to see what was up. Instead, she sent Hawke and friends to lie and say everything was fine. She clearly doesn't give a **** about changing anything at all.

The reason she didn't act is because Elthina's interest is not really in "protecting" anyone. All she cares about is maintaining a status quo that is already broken. A status quo that keeps the Chantry in power.

Change is needed in Thedas, and if it takes a war to make that happen, then so be it. I don't see how any war could exceed or even equal the bloodshed that results from a thousand years of systematic abuse of a minority.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:41 .


#7
Heimdall

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Elthina was acting. She acted by restraining Meredith's more extreme actions. And that is literally all she could have done without te whole gallows scene happening anyway. For your information, Meredith had been writing to the Divine behind Elthina's back because she had refused her requests for the rite.

Once again you persist in viewing mages as Kirkwall and fail to understand the reality of Elthina's situation.

On one hand, you have the Divine telling her that the mages in Kirkwall are going out of control and threaten the city, Meredith whistling the more extreme version. In truth, they aren't wrong. What are the nighttime gangs in Act 3? A group of blood mages and an army of thralls large enough to attack a small city, a demonic cult, and mage led ring of Tervinter Slavers. Then there are the Resolutionists running around. On the other side is her genuine concern for mages. She's likely smart enough to know that the Templars would probably be able to win if push came to shove in the Gallows anyway, leaving all the mages dead,

Here's the part you've been missing: HER CONCERN IS FOR THE PEOPLE OF KIRKWALL

and

THE COMMON PEOPLE OF KIRKWALL ARE NOT THE MAGES

The mages are a tiny minority. It is Kirkwall and the common people that she was given responsibility over. If a war breaks out between Templar and mage, the common people would be slaughtered in the crossfire. Her job is to protect them and that means forcing the situation to war is the opposite of what she wants to do. The rumored Exalted March would cause the same effect.

Is sacrificing the many for the few just? Regardless, I don't particularly care about your beliefs regarding change in Thedas. My point was that Elthina's duty was to THE COMMON PEOPLE OF KIRKWALL, NOT THE MAGES. And she did all that was in her power to fulfill that duty. Anything else she did would have been to directly fail in her duty and bring harm to the flock to which she was assigned, the flock many of whom she has known since birth. If anyone who does not sacrifice the common people for the sake of mages is a power mongering chantry bigot to you I suggest you go to Tervinter, you'd like it there. Only mages matter.

I feel no more need to educate you as the logic is plain here for you to see once you let go of your emptional and irrational hatred of Elthina.  I'll leave it at this.  Adieu.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:19 .


#8
Plaintiff

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I got your point, genius. I specifically addressed the regular citizenry in the post you juuuuust replied to. And when I say Kirkwall, I do not mean "the mages", I mean ****ing Kirkwall.

The ordinary people you claim she has a duty to are going to die either way. They are being harrassed by templars right now. A huge portion of the common people think Meredith is a tyrant and want her gone. There are nobles working to depose her. Elthina was a coward in her failure to do everything she possibly could to get Meredith out of that position. It was negative for everyone involved and she flat-out ignored it. She doesn't even make a token effort to actually fix anything. She sweeps the problems under the rug and allows Meredith to continue on as normal. When anyone comes to her with a legitimate grievance, she shoves her fingers in her ears and goes "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA TRUST IN OUR ABSENT GOD LA LA LA".

Elthina didn't restrain ****. If Meredith was writing to the Divine, then Elthina should've at least done the same thing to try and convince her that Meredith was a problem and needed to go.

If Elthina is simply incapable of keeping Meredith under control, then she might as well get blown up because she's nothing more than dead weight.

Who did Elthina help by staying? ****ing nobody, that's who.

I don't "hate" Elthina, I don't feel anything for her, because she's a ****ing videogame character and I'm not retarded. I'm simply stating the facts, and the fact is that she's a stupid, useless coward.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:32 .


#9
Dave of Canada

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Plaintiff, if you want people to take your posts seriously, I'd recommend toning down the aggressiveness. You appear irrational while you're trying to present some (though I may not agree) points which make sense in a certain context.

#10
Heimdall

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She can't keep Meredith under control. She simply doesn't have the power. Despite this you keep insisting that she should.

Kirkwall was a good sight better off suffering occasional harrasment from Templars than it was when mages, demons, and Templars are tearing the very city apart. You can brush all them under the rug as collateral damage if you like, she will not. Unlike you, she has regard for the individual life and distinguishes between destroying half the city and non lethal Templar raids to search for mages.

She keeps Meredith and Orsino from launching the city into war. That is the grievance she addresses. That is the most important thing she can do. To do that she has to make sure Meredith never reaches the point that she feels she must destroy the mages utterly and disregard Elthina. In order to do this she cannot afford to give favoritism to the mages. In order to protect her flock, she must not.

Elthina helped the entire city. There's a reason Anders decided to kill her. Without her Meredith would have tried to annul the circle long ago and the whole situation would have happened sooner. Without her, the city would be in shambles with thousands dead including the circle of magi.

She did her duty.  It may not have been enough but it was all she could do.  She cannot be faulted for that.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:44 .


#11
Heimdall

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Let him be aggressive if he wants. Clearly he feels passionate about this.

#12
brightblueink

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Elthina was acting. She acted by restraining Meredith's more extreme actions. And that is literally all she could have done without te whole gallows scene happening anyway. For your information, Meredith had been writing to the Divine behind Elthina's back because she had refused her requests for the rite.

I might be wrong on this--I've been replaying recently, but I only just got to Act 3--but I think you might be mistaken here, if you're thinking of the "Tranquil Solution" quest for Anders in Act 2. IIRC, the templar behind the plan (Ser Alric, I want to say?) was rejected by both the Divine AND Meredith.

Unless there's something that happens in Act 3 that reveals Meredith has jumped off the slippery slope and is now pushing for a similar plan, which is quite possible. I'm finding a lot of moments in DA2 that I'd forgotten about now that I'm replaying.

Anyway, to address the OP's post: While I get where you're coming from, and I can even kinda see how this sort of family system is taking place with the mages and templars, I don't think that either the befriended OR rivaled Anders is really all that psychologically healthy. While Anders might have a stronger sense of self on the Friendship path, he lashes out at innocences to further his goal--in a sense, he's almost become an abuser himself because of his trauma, considering that he's manipulated Hawke (particularly if he's in a relationship with them), he encourages cruelty toward those that challenge his beliefs (when he cheers for Fenris being sold back into slavery, falling into the hypocracy that he's often [rightfully] accused Fenris of), and even could be considered to participate in the "enabling" of the "good children" when he interacts with Merill (the way he treats her because of her blood magic). And then of course there's the chantry, which is an act of terrorism, full stop. While I do agree that a Rival!Anders isn't psychologically healthy EITHER, I don't agree that Friendship!Anders is really any better. No matter how you slice it, Anders has been really heavily twisted, both because of his background in the Circle and his choices after he escaped. I don't really view him as a completely mature adult no matter what happens. If rivaled, he blames Justice. If befriended, he still blames the Chantry/Circle/Templars/etc for his actions.

This isn't to say that I don't think Anders is a fantastic character, and he's one of my favorites in the series. But I don't think he ever gets "better".

(As a side note, I think it's pretty fantastic that a "game" can provoke such in depth discussions on stuff like this. I think it shows both how far the medium has come, and how great Gaider is as a writer.)

#13
River5

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brightblueink wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Elthina was acting. She acted by restraining Meredith's more extreme actions. And that is literally all she could have done without te whole gallows scene happening anyway. For your information, Meredith had been writing to the Divine behind Elthina's back because she had refused her requests for the rite.

I might be wrong on this--I've been replaying recently, but I only just got to Act 3--but I think you might be mistaken here, if you're thinking of the "Tranquil Solution" quest for Anders in Act 2. IIRC, the templar behind the plan (Ser Alric, I want to say?) was rejected by both the Divine AND Meredith.

Unless there's something that happens in Act 3 that reveals Meredith has jumped off the slippery slope and is now pushing for a similar plan, which is quite possible. I'm finding a lot of moments in DA2 that I'd forgotten about now that I'm replaying.


If you poke one of the Templars at the beginning of Act 3 (Ser Karras, I think), he will say "The Knight Commander has sent for the Right of Annulment directly to Val Royaux.  Those robes are going to get their lesson soon", or something like that.

So it has nothing to do with Ser Alrik's plan.  Ser Alrik's plan was to turn every mage Tranquil, and that "solution" was rejected by all.  Meredith is really trying to get permission directly from the Divine to annul the Kirkwall Circle in Act 3.

brightblueink wrote...

Anyway, to address the OP's post: While I get where you're coming from, and I can even kinda see how this sort of family system is taking place with the mages and templars, I don't think that either the befriended OR rivaled Anders is really all that psychologically healthy. While Anders might have a stronger sense of self on the Friendship path, he lashes out at innocences to further his goal--in a sense, he's almost become an abuser himself because of his trauma, considering that he's manipulated Hawke (particularly if he's in a relationship with them), he encourages cruelty toward those that challenge his beliefs (when he cheers for Fenris being sold back into slavery, falling into the hypocracy that he's often [rightfully] accused Fenris of), and even could be considered to participate in the "enabling" of the "good children" when he interacts with Merill (the way he treats her because of her blood magic). And then of course there's the chantry, which is an act of terrorism, full stop. While I do agree that a Rival!Anders isn't psychologically healthy EITHER, I don't agree that Friendship!Anders is really any better. No matter how you slice it, Anders has been really heavily twisted, both because of his background in the Circle and his choices after he escaped. I don't really view him as a completely mature adult no matter what happens. If rivaled, he blames Justice. If befriended, he still blames the Chantry/Circle/Templars/etc for his actions.

 

Like I said, I consider that what we see in DA2 is Anders' journey towards maturity and adulthood.  Anywhere between DAA and "The Last Straw" at the end of Act 3, he's not there yet.  Until then, he still behaves as a heavily codependant person, with unrealistic expectations about love, his ideals, and life in general.  As well as a very black and white, dealing only in extremes mentality.

He's still going through the earliest stages (denial, anger, bargaining, depression...) of grief, and responding to them in a very strong way that can be very harmful to himself, as well as others.  But I see this as part of a continuum that will eventually get to where he has to be as a fully autonomous person.

And would you say that Neo in "The Matrix" is a terrorist?  After all, he is killing innocent, indocrinated minds in order to try to eventually save them from the machines seeking to control them.

To oppose the Chantry and the Circles peacefully, Anders would have needed some serious leverage allowing him to force the change.

I'm really looking at it as a system.  The people in the Chantry and those that are either controllers, enablers, or accessories in this system aren't evil per say.  They only believe that the way things are is the way things should be.

The ones in control, generally, really think they are doing good and protecting people from themselves.  Which is why this system is so dangerous, and nearly impossible to change.

In a real narcissistic family where, let's say, the mother is a narcissist and the father an enabler.  The mother lacks the ability to be empathic to what other people are feeling and thinking.  She believes that as long as her own needs are met, everyone's needs are thus met.

The enabling father lacks the ability to see that things could be better or different, and lives to ultimately meet the expectations of the mother.  He favors peace and "security" over the anxiety that change could bring.

The tragedy truly comes from the fact that there are no real ill intentions.  Just a bunch of defective perceptions and coping mechanisms.

You have a complete right to disagree with my perception or opinions (seriously, I love to argue and debate but I have no pretense to believe that I'm right, and don't take any opposing argument personally.  On the contrary!  I love when people bring in new reflections, thoughts, especially when they differ from my own), but I really can't consider what Anders did as an act of terrorism.

I actually see it as counter-terrorism.

If you define terrorism as "the systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goals".  Then the terrorist is the Chantry.  Then again, even I have to admit that I am highly uncomfortable with the notion of opposing terror with terror...  However, I really can't think of any other solution that could have forced the change in such a context.

brightblueink wrote...

This isn't to say that I don't think Anders is a fantastic character, and he's one of my favorites in the series. But I don't think he ever gets "better".

(As a side note, I think it's pretty fantastic that a "game" can provoke such in depth discussions on stuff like this. I think it shows both how far the medium has come, and how great Gaider is as a writer.)


Oh, I think that Anders seems to be doing pretty great if you let him live, and speak to him at the Gallows before the last battle.  Even if you were in a relationship and you decide to break up with him, he remains very reasonable and assertive, simply saying "I wish I had no loyalties greater than you.  That's the freedom I'm fighting for."

It's a far cry from "I would drown us in blood to keep you safe."  ;)

He's putting who he is, and what he values before the need to be in a relationship, and completely devoted to someone else.

Anders will always carry with him the scars from his time in the Circle, but most of them are healing, and he's facing his own battles instead of running away, or fighting battles only for others. 

Being an adult and mature individual doesn't mean that you are 100% healthy on every level.  Just that you have succeeded in developping your own identity, and staying true to yourself.  I believe that Anders has achieved that.

#14
River5

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Bayz wrote...

Yeah well except when doing so is not convenient for individuals in power. Tevinter created their own Chantry just because they could and people like Vaughn are not very respectful of Chantry sisters making elven weddings...

It depends on the place but the Chantry is as a whole used as a way to control people, just another tool. It is ok to pretend you obey and respects her rules, but just when it is convenient.


I'm really just exploring the situation in Thedas and how it affects Anders in terms of character development.  Looking at the Chantry as being part of a narcissistic "family" system in that very context.

If we tried to apply the same model to the Imperium, the Magisters would probably be the "narcissistic fathers".  And the "Black Divine" perhaps only an enabling mother.

Plus, they have slaves that are really named for what they are (no pretense in trying to tell them "you are being enslaved for you own good").  Tevinter works differently.  I guess that I would have to do a character study of Fenris instead of Anders in order to try to draw comparisons about how that other system can psychologically affect Fenris' character development.

Bayz wrote...

The chantry doesn't striclty controls the Circles, the templars do. In some places one thing can mean the other but look at how Meredith doesn't seem to care too much about what Elthina has to say. She tends to keep herself under her approval, but she is pushing also her own agenda, with things like stopping the New Viscount's elections and so.

Technically they should be the same as one is in theory the army of the other, but as with the chantry it always boils down on the individuals that are in charge of respective organizations. And after what happened in Kirkwall, even more now.


Templars still belong to the Chantry.  I didn't feel the need to differentiate between the Divine, the Mothers, the Sisters, the Templars, the Seekers, etc. in the model because I was looking at "the Chantry" as a whole.

Especially since I consider that Anders didn't really care about Meredith, Orsino, or even Elthina.  He was trying to make the whole system collapse, not solve what was happening in Kirkwall.

In the aftermath of Kirkwall, it's ALL the mages and ALL the Templars that rebelled.  Having lost control of both Circles and Templars, two of its main factions, the Chantry is loosing power and the means to enforce her ways.

If you look at what's happening in Kirkwall exclusively, then I would put Meredith as controller, and Elthina and Orsino as enablers.

Although Elthina is the single most powerful person in Kirkwall, the direct representative of the Divine, and Meredith should technically follow her leadership; she is abusing her power by not exercing it, and leaving Meredith in control.  Remaining neutral is actually even worse in this situation than taking position, as it leaves all the children confused regarding her motivations.


Bayz wrote...

Doesn't seem to me that the chantry treats mages as that at all. If it where as you say, the rite of tranquility would be enforced always and it is only in some cases. The Chantry seems to be more concerned about mages going out and summoning demons to the world than on coercing their freedom just because. It is not as if they couldn't just dispense tranquility to everyone and anybody would give a **** outside the circles.

Their efforts and contributions are recognized by society, specially
enchantments and poultices. It doesn't look to me that the Chantry tries
to stop that or undermine it...


Except mages are still made to feel responsible for the actions of what their predecessors did hundred of years ago.  While they should be given the chance to learn to trust in their powers, themselves, and others; and use their gifts responsibly.  To become fully accountable for their actions, and not abuse the advantages they have been given.

And that's the problem right there.  In society, mages are defined as "mages" and appreciated for what they do, not who they are.  Mages are "tolerated" as long as they follow expectations.  But they aren't allowed to have families, or share similar rights as their other "brothers and sisters".

Bayz wrote...
Again it seems to depend more on the Knight Commander of the Templars than on the Grand Clerics. I know some ask to the Gran Clerics but it seems to me to be more out of courtesy than actual authority as both Meredith and Gregoir call for it and nobody seems to blink an eye.


Just the fact that there is such a thing as the Right of Annulment is already incredibly abusive, and indicative that the system is failing to protect the mages.

Bayz wrote...

And it should be this way, for they were constructs of the Chantry to help them cater the mages and at least allow them to live without being all tranquil or die, and teaching the ones that can be trusted to use their Maker given gift and study it to better serve their country in time of need.

What on Tevinter seems to be the privilege of the wealthy or the main families and their proteges, the Chantry offers to everybody without looking at their background.


Freeing mages from the Circles wouldn't give rise to a new Tevinter Imperium.  The Magisters of old existed at a time where even dwarves had human slaves.  Besides magic, there probably were other social factors that allowed the Magisters to seize power in Tevinter, and become an elite.

Also, not all mages over there are Magisters, many of them are still slaves just as other citizens.

While it is reasonable to expect that mages should be trained to use their gifts.  The means that are taken to train them and the psychological abuse they suffer are unacceptable.  IMHO.

Bayz wrote...

Again doesn't seem to be so. The templars are not having more rights than the mages at all, they make life with them, and share their jails. The mages only can go out when the State demands them to, the Templars, only some can go out if the mages are called. Some mages can go out and hunt apostates but still is limited to when they are called. They go out hunt down apostates and come back home.

Even worse as how the Templars are all junkies addicted to Lyrium, they are even more prisioners within the Chantry than the mages themselves, at least technically, as there are always workarounds to get Lyrium.


As I say, I'm looking at the Chantry from a systemic point of view, but we could start analysing many of the other subsystems that are in place in order to maintain the biggest one.

Yes, the Templars are also abused, and are other victims of the system.  The main difference is that many of them can choose to become a Templar, where all mages are imprisoned in Towers.

But even so, the Chantry's treatment of the Templars is in many way very abusive and inhumane in certain situations.

However, since I was interested in how the system affected Anders' character development, I didn't really explore it from a Templars' perspective.  Could be interesting to do another essay on Alistair...  Lol!

Bayz wrote...
Again no, the Chantry and the Templars don't need the mages, they could do fine just making every last of them tranquil by default, the Templars wouldn't be needed and I suspect the decission will be regarded with joy amongst the people's of Thedas. But obvoiusly that would also mean that KingDukewhatever X will lose his people of mass destruction and he might consider then that following the "Chantry rules" isn't worthy anymore so...


Ahem...  Need I remind you that the only thing that ended up stoping the Qunari from invading Thedas are the Circle mages?  ;)

The Chantry only managed to push them back because they used the Circle mages in their armies to fight them, as Qunari are even more distrustful of magic, and have very few mages among their ranks.

So despite the fact that the Qunari are more technology advanced, the Chantry was still able to prevail only on account of using magic.

Those that control the mages are those that weild the biggest amount of power.  So yes, even if the individuals may see them as threats and people like Ser Alrik wish they were all made tranquil...  The Chantry as a system knows that the mages are needed in order to remain in power.

Bayz wrote...

Wynne, Irving amongst others seemed to be as possessing a huge sense of self autonomy. In Origins you see Alistair asking a mage to go and speak with one of the camp's mothers and he, although at the end accepted, could have tell her to ****** off as they were under the king's orders.

 

Actually, I see Wynne as one of the enabling fathers, or even an accessory child that is still stuck in the "bargaining" stage of "if we are good to our mother, we will earn her trust and be given more freedom".

Especially when she and Anders oppose the ones wishing to separate from the Chantry.

I will have to keep commenting at another time as I have some other matters that I need to go attend to, but thank you for your comments...  This is quite interesting...  :D

Modifié par River5, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:20 .


#15
Bayz

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River5 wrote...

I'm really just exploring the situation in Thedas and how it affects Anders in terms of character development.  Looking at the Chantry as being part of a narcissistic "family" system in that very context.

If we tried to apply the same model to the Imperium, the Magisters would probably be the "narcissistic fathers".  And the "Black Divine" perhaps only an enabling mother.

Plus, they have slaves that are really named for what they are (no pretense in trying to tell them "you are being enslaved for you own good").  Tevinter works differently.  I guess that I would have to do a character study of Fenris instead of Anders in order to try to draw comparisons about how that other system can psychologically affect Fenris' character development.


Ok I see it now


River5 wrote...
Templars still belong to the Chantry.  I didn't feel the need to differentiate between the Divine, the Mothers, the Sisters, the Templars, the Seekers, etc. in the model because I was looking at "the Chantry" as a whole.

Especially since I consider that Anders didn't really care about Meredith, Orsino, or even Elthina.  He was trying to make the whole system collapse, not solve what was happening in Kirkwall.

In the aftermath of Kirkwall, it's ALL the mages and ALL the Templars that rebelled.  Having lost control of both Circles and Templars, two of its main factions, the Chantry is loosing power and the means to enforce her ways.

If you look at what's happening in Kirkwall exclusively, then I would put Meredith as controller, and Elthina and Orsino as enablers.

Although Elthina is the single most powerful person in Kirkwall, the direct representative of the Divine, and Meredith should technically follow her leadership; she is abusing her power by not exercing it, and leaving Meredith in control.  Remaining neutral is actually even worse in this situation than taking position, as it leaves all the children confused regarding her motivations.


Well thing is there that for that to be assumed we need to be certain that Elthina could actually depose Meredith. We need to have first prove that the Chantry has that extent authority over the Templars, I know they control them through the Lyrium addiction and that they are the military arm of the Chantry, but still I think it can be a direct control or a more indirect, kinda like the armies in the Thedan states.

But I understand that is derailing it for the concrete purpose of the model you have proposed and that they have to be considered as one.

Bayz wrote...

Except mages are still made to feel responsible for the actions of what their predecessors did hundred of years ago.  While they should be given the chance to learn to trust in their powers, themselves, and others; and use their gifts responsibly.  To become fully accountable for their actions, and not abuse the advantages they have been given.

And that's the problem right there.  In society, mages are defined as "mages" and appreciated for what they do, not who they are.  Mages are "tolerated" as long as they follow expectations.  But they aren't allowed to have families, or share similar rights as their other "brothers and sisters".


Are they? As a Circle mage in DA:O I did not see the Chantry actually rubbing my face on that, more concerned about what I could become than what I was before.

As an example when speaking to Gregoir you get a ton of implications and speeches on demonic possesion and I didn't got any schooling in Tevinter mages. In fact the only who had brought up that freeding the mages will make Thedas become Tevinter all over again is Fenris AFAIR.


River5 wrote...
Just the fact that there is such a thing as the Right of Annulment is already incredibly abusive, and indicative that the system is failing to protect the mages.


Well the two times we see the Right being summoned upon are very very hard times. And again it seems to be only guided when demons are involved, except when Meredith decides to call upon it just because in DA2 (probably due the fact that Elthina wasn't there to say no, but again we need to see if they really need to ask the High Priest for permission)

River5 wrote...
Freeing mages from the Circles wouldn't give rise to a new Tevinter Imperium.  The Magisters of old existed at a time where even dwarves had human slaves.  Besides magic, there probably were other social factors that allowed the Magisters to seize power in Tevinter, and become an elite.

Also, not all mages over there are Magisters, many of them are still slaves just as other citizens.

While it is reasonable to expect that mages should be trained to use their gifts.  The means that are taken to train them and the psychological abuse they suffer are unacceptable.  IMHO.


I guess it depends from circle to circle. Bethany who had been living in freedom didn't seemed too concerned for instance about she losing her freedom and she didn't seemed to be subjected to physical abuse. Then again we had in the same circle that templar rapist guy so...

River5 wrote...
As I say, I'm looking at the Chantry from a systemic point of view, but we could start analysing many of the other subsystems that are in place in order to maintain the biggest one.

Yes, the Templars are also abused, and are other victims of the system.  The main difference is that many of them can choose to become a Templar, where all mages are imprisoned in Towers.

But even so, the Chantry's treatment of the Templars is in many way very abusive and inhumane in certain situations.

However, since I was interested in how the system affected Anders' character development, I didn't really explore it from a Templars' perspective.  Could be interesting to do another essay on Alistair...  Lol!


He was obviously mentally scarred, but mostly due to his cheese addiction methinks


River5 wrote...
Ahem...  Need I remind you that the only thing that ended up stoping the Qunari from invading Thedas are the Circle mages?  ;)

The Chantry only managed to push them back because they used the Circle mages in their armies to fight them, as Qunari are even more distrustful of magic, and have very few mages among their ranks.

So despite the fact that the Qunari are more technology advanced, the Chantry was still able to prevail only on account of using magic.

Those that control the mages are those that weild the biggest amount of power.  So yes, even if the individuals may see them as threats and people like Ser Alrik wish they were all made tranquil...  The Chantry as a system knows that the mages are needed in order to remain in power.


That's a bit preposterous. The mages were one of the main advantages, but so where the numbers and a couple of other factors, when it started to become a war of attrittion both factors together were the ones that took the Qunari back. Or so says Genitivi in the Exalted Marches Chapter of this text

That said, despite not being the circle AFAIK, the Tevinter Imperium are the ones fighting them alone now and keeping them at bay. Obviously being Tevinter mages everywhere.

The Chantry says them as a way to remain into power, but I think we differ in why. I mean how many Exalted Marches the Chantry calls on a year? On the other hand, I wager that Thedan states tend to wage war quite often and mages are used in those wars. Again that is just speculation on my side though...

River5 wrote...
Actually, I see Wynne as one of the enabling fathers, or even an accessory child that is still stuck in the "bargaining" stage of "if we are good to our mother, we will earn her trust and be given more freedom".

Especially when she and Anders oppose the ones wishing to separate from the Chantry.

I will have to keep commenting at another time as I have some other matters that I need to go attend to, but thank you for your comments...  This is quite interesting...  :D


It makes sense within the model you proposed, I also saw her as even more compliant to the Chantry than Irving, which has always been worrying.

Well I liked tha mages fraternities and I think that there is a lot more of political (as in Thedan) discussion's possibilities within them.

#16
River5

River5
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[quote]Bayz wrote...

Most will be happy as seeing how most (as in 99%) of the ones that break from it become abominations. Count Libertarians (including your mage characters) that you have seen in OriginsDA2 that are NOT abominations or bloodmages that try to kill everything. Good, not needing even one hand huh? Now count the ones that ARE.

You see, I play mages, and blood mages actually most of the time and I am a Libertarian but Ithat's just because I believe that if the Mage's Collective were given enough support from the State, the circles wouldn't be needed, given that the Mage's Collective doesn't seem to do it i do believe that mages should stay then in the Circles for now. But we are working on it.

[/quote]

I see mages who become abominations as an almost direct result of the system.

If a mage manages to escape the Circles (without the Chantry's autorization), he/she will be hunted down like a criminal and forced into hiding only on account of being a mage.

Once caught, the "punishment" will depend on how much he/she will have misbehaved (in the eyes of the Knight Commander, and/or the First Enchanter).

Remember that the emotional maturity, and the development of the autonomy of the mages growing up in the Circle has been stunted.  They haven't learned to care for themselves, and to function among others outside of the safety of their towers on their own.

The Circles promise them to care for all their primary needs in exchange for their collaboration.

Even in narcissistic families, it is very possible that the parents will excell at "taking care of the child".  They will allow him/her to get to the best schools, throw huge anniversary parties, laud the child every efforts and successes, etc.

But, in the end, it is only because the narcissistic parent (or system) sees his/her own successes reflected in the child.  "See how my kid is successful and well adapted, it's all because of me!"  ;)  "What a good parent I am!"

But if you dig deeper, you'll see that the reason why the kid is an over-achiever is because it is the only way he or she has found to get love and approval.  The happiest he/she appears to be, and the more he/she agrees with the parents, the more he/she's given.

But let him/her admit that he/she is sad and that the reason for this might have to do with the way that his/her parents are treating their kid...  The nice, consoling, understanding parent will vanish and start blaming the kid for being ungrateful, selfish, etc.

For example, a mother that keeps her life treating her daughter as her best friend (doing everything with her; sharing confidences about her own adult life and then asking the daughter to help her in solving her own emotional problems; involving the daughter in her conflicts with the other parent and letting the kid mediate between the two parents; telling her child all about her sexual life, etc.) might do just as much damage as a mother that will blatantly ignore all of her children's needs.

The abuse can be very covert.

So, to come back to the mages.  I consider that making them believe that they always need someone to watch over them (Chantry (Templars included), Circles, etc.) to function amongst people, as they can never be entirely trusted on their own (and haven't been allowed to develop the skills to become self-reliant, independant individuals), probably makes it very easy for demons to get a hold on them!

To escape their fear, their anxiety, their self-loathing, they need something or someone to turn to.

Just as children from dysfunctional families will often be attracted to unhealthy relationship because of the familiarity it reprensents...  And also, because they are still trying to "succeed" where they failed with their parents.  A.k.a. Gaining the love and approval of someone sadly just as emotionally unavailable.

Chances are mages will feel compelled to trade one system of control (the Circles) for another (the demons' offer).  Demons are praying on people's fear, insecurities, anger, etc.  With the way that the mages are being "controlled", there's plenty of that to go around!  :D

As for blood magic.  It's the easiest, strongest source of power besides demons when things get desperate.

The mages collective would indeed be a very favorable alternative to the Circles.

Mages need to be trained in using their powers and become accountable for them, just like a child needs to be raised by his parents.  I'm not opposed to Circles as boarding schools, for example.

Nor am I really opposed to the Chantry as an institution itself.  But a good system of government will learn to adapt and evolve according to its people's will, too.  It will allow room for dissent, protests, (hopefully) peaceful revolutions, etc.  While the leaders ultimately remain in charge of decision making and can't please everyone (obviously), they must do so while being able to be empathic to the plight of their people.

Just as healthy parents will need to keep a certain level of authority and oversight on their children's lives up to the point where they are able to function by themselves, mages need someone guiding them and protecting them in the first years of their lives.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Then he got bored and scaped his duties. My warden executed Morrigan the first time for leaving the group on wartime after telling her that she will not have sexy time with her love interest, if she found out what Anders had done in Kirkwall, just by the fact he scaped his duties, she will have his ass.

[/quote]

Assuming that Anders truly left the order by choice; why, oh why should he have stayed?  While he joined the Wardens willingly, shouldn't he be allowed to have second thoughts?

Don't get me wrong, I think that the Wardens are great!  But fighting darkspawn and sacrificing your whole life for the well-being of others isn't for everyone.  In a way, Anders only traded one system of control for another.

He might have believed that he could do more good by fighting for the mages' freedom and rights with Justice, than by following orders and killing darkspawn.  He allowed himself to follow his own heart.  I really can't fault him for that.

I also believe that he left not because he trully wanted to abandon "the Warden" or escape his duties (I may be wrong, but I think that "the Warden" wasn't at Vigil's Keep anymore, and Anders was under someone else's command at that time), but because of Justice.  Templars had managed to infiltrate the ranks of the Wardens in order to keep an eye on Anders, and they threatened to kill him as soon as his joining with Justice was completed (if you read Jennifer Hepler's short story about Anders).

In defending himself from them, he ended up lashing out with Justice, and killing a bunch of Wardens.  He seems to have left in a panic with the belief that the Wardens wouldn't understand, and that he would be executed.

[quote]Bayz wrote...
He doesn't seem in Awakening to be too much into this denial thing of yours...he is quite anti Chantry all over. And abominations tend to let the demons they have inside take over when the human can't control itself anymore, be it for fear, anger or whatever, is when they revert to primal states that the spirit within takes over.
[/quote]

Anders is still in denial of the way that the Chantry's control is still affecting him.  He's not denying so much the fact that the Chantry is "wrong", than trying to avoid seeing in which ways it is wrong, and understanding that just because he is outside of the building, it doesn't mean that he is free.

Even by avoiding his oppressors, he's still following the Chantry's expectations by behaving as if what they are doing isn't his problem.  That things are the way they are for mages (the world is purple), and the only option he has is to avoid his oppressors, not gather the means to trully confront and oppose them.

By escaping, and always reacting to the Chantry, he's the one put in a position where he must always justify himself.  The Chantry aren't seeking to understand what's causing Anders (and other mages) to escape, just preventing them from doing so, as their behavior is judged "unacceptable".

Anders is denying himself by refusing to confront his own feelings, and learning to own them.  In many ways, I still say that Justice saved him when he helped Anders question what the Chantry and the Circles have been doing to the mages, and take direct actions to prevent that cycle of violence from continuing to feed on itself.

Before Justice, it is possible that Anders was better liked by most because he instinctively knew how to fulfill others' expectations.  He was a funny and charming attention seeker, but other than that, he didn't really rock the boat, or disturb the rules.

Post Justice, he's not such a "people pleaser" anymore, nor really concerned with meeting expectations to gain approval.

Truth is, Anders had never been in control of himself before Justice, because his whole identity was molded according to his external world, and his whole personality was reactive.

Justice changed him by becoming a part of him, but also allowed the other parts of himself to become better defined over the course of a decade (by the end of Act 3).  At least, that's how I see it.



[quote]Bayz wrote...

Except that it is as him said. He had a strong bias against the circle and the chantry and justice picked right upon that. We see another abomination from a "beningn" spirit in Wynne and she doesn't seem to have that "your mother sucks ****s in hell" moments as Anders does. Keep in mind though that Anders is not just an abomination, he also has the Warden's taint spreading all over his body and possibly screwing up with Justice as much as Ander's bias does (in Lore it is said that the taint can slowly drive you mad, or so the Wardens said to the Ash Warriors anyway, but it is a possiblity as the Wardens can hear the Calling)

[/quote]

Hence why I believe that joining with a spirit won't change who the person is and what he/she values.  That it won't corrup their identity, simply heighten a specific part of themselves.

Wynne believes that the only way for mages to better their situation is by collaborating with the Chantry and the Circles, as she is convinced that the alternative will result in genocide.  (This is what she tells you when you meet with her in "Awakening").

Joining with Faith will only heighten her Faith in her own beliefs, not create new ones.

Anders, while initially sharing Wynne's beliefs that things are the way they are and can't be changed; thus, his only option to live free is to avoid his opressors, seems to feel more anger towards them.

And I'm betting that his year spent in solitary confinement didn't do anything good to help him release, or deal with his anger.  To survive, he may simply have done what many other children from narcissisitc families will do.  Build strong mental walls in order to supress the feelings that seem too difficult or sometimes impossible to deal with.  Become nearly apathetic.  The ultimate "Whatever you do, I don't care!  You can't hurt me!" attitude.

Though suppressed and buried deep down, the feelings are still there though.  So Justice (while still in Kristoff's body)'s thoughts and arguments regarding the mages' plight just might have appealed to the part of Anders that actually "still cared" about all that was done to him and his brothers and sisters.

That deep down, yearned for the recognition of the abuses they have been subjected to, and to receive some form of justice for it.

When Anders and Justice joined, the spirit unlocked the part of Anders that he'd tried to keep buried, and had forgotten ever existed!  And he wasn't ready to deal with so much anger, because he'd never learned to acknowledge it and deal with it before.

Hence why it makes him loose control.

Faith never changed Wynne.  And Justice never changed Anders.  They just amplified what was already there, and made them become more focused on that part of themselves above everything else, that's all.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Well i supported him and the mage's cause. My father was an apostate and was fine so...still he blew up the bloody chantry without telling me and Vengeance was still appearing despite my support.

[/quote]

Justice, of Vengeance?  During the course of the game, Anders is struggling with his self control, and has yet to learn to integrate Justice as a part of himself.  Anders will mention that when he gets angry, Justice comes out, and he's no longer Justice but a force of Vengeance.  Which is 100% true.

As long as Anders hasn't been able to complete the grief process, deal with his anger, and integrate Justice as a part of himself; the spirit acts as a force of Vengeance.

But, in "The Last Straw", what Anders did had nothing to do with Vengeance.  He's trying to change the world by disrupting the very mecanism (a.k.a. Alliance between the Chantry and the Circles) that is allowing the systematic abuse and oppression of mages to take place.

Friendship path, he will be at peace with what he did and clearly state that Justice and him are one now.  The real struggle was for him to accept that part of him that was filled with anger and appealed to the spirit.  To learn to use his anger in a constructive manner, and see it as a part of who he is.

Rivalry path (with convincing Anders that Justice and he are wrong), the opposite will occur.  The splitting between them both will be so strong that Anders will say that "Vengeance" made him do it, and that it wasn't his fault.  He's rejecting the part of himself that is filled with anger and is imagining that he has created a demon that took control, and acted against his will.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Point becomes moot after how he kills a templar out of sheer rage, actually illustrating the Chantry's point quite nicely.

[/quote]

Which Templar are you refering to?  Ser Alrik?  The one that made Karl, and countless others Tranquil?

If not, I don't remember Anders ever lashing out at a Templar in a situation other than to protect himself or his friends.

Besides, like I said, I still see the mages that become dangerous as a by product of the Chantry's mistreatments of them.  They are creating their own Frankensteins, and then are surprised when the monsters they so lovingly nurtured turns on them, or ends up acting in destructive, uncontrolled ways.

Mages aren't taught to control themselves in an autonomous manner, but to obey to other people's control in a dependant / codependant manner.

They aren't proving the Chantry's point, they are showing them the direct consequences of their abuses.  But, of course, the Chantry lacks the ability to see it this way and question what part of responsibility they may have had in these tragedies.

On the contrary, it serves their interests!  "Look!  I told you mages that are left to wander outside the Circles are dangerous.  Therefore, we were right, and ours is the only way!"  It's like this huge self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sadly, violence can be inherited, and given from one to another.  Narcissisitc parents will often breed narcissistic  or codependant children...  That will then use violence with their own children in order to try to fulfill the emotional needs that their own parents failed to fulfill.  And so forth unless they "wake up" and realize what's going on.

It's a very sad legacy...

[quote]Bayz wrote...

OR he was overtaken by Vengeance's twisted, uninformed and terribly biased sense of Justice and did what the abomination within made him to. I had top Anders relation and still had to ninja knife him because his moral choices were terribly terribly wrong, despite his cause being kind of just. He was part of what strengthens the Chantry and the Circle at the eyes of the people. He provoked a war, trying to justify him is like justify terrorism elsewhere.

Points become moot when they are reinforced by violence. Always.

[/quote]

I respect your point of view, but sadly have to agree to disagree.  Non violent alternatives work only in cases where the ones leading the rebellion can manage to organize their efforts, and use some solid leverage (social, political, financial, etc.) on the oppressors to force them to change their ways.

When you are faced with a totalitarian type of government that already wields absolute (Maker given) power and is convinced that their system works to the point of being willing to kill everyone disagreeing with them or threatening their way of life, you have a huge problem on your hands.

You need to hit that machine hard, in a way that will really hurt it.

If you can't do so financially, politically, or socially for example, your means to achieve that become very restrained.

The Chantry (as a system) won't just change for the very sake of change.  You can't bargain with them if they don't feel they have anytyhing to gain (or avoid losing) unless they listen.

The Chantry is a military conquering force that didn't hesitate to brand the Dales' inhabitants "heretics" because they refused to follow their ways, and launch an exhalted march against them.

In the scope of the damage they have caused and continue to cause, Anders blowing up a single Chantry building (with the Grand Cleric, a few brothers and sisters and templars) to ignite a revolution seems pretty reasonable to me.

Yes, many more will die, it's true...  But when you've known control, and have had your very identity denied existance, many would rather die than continue to live a half-life and submit.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Problem being, that he actually did wrong. Look, the middle east has been plundered and raped by the west for ages, and they have the rights to be angry at us, but when vent their anger on blowing up innocents that had nothing to do with it they lose the moral highground. Anders didn't blow up the Templars quarters, didn't plot Meredith's assassination on hopes that Elthina would bring somebody that could be more empathetic to the mages, he killed the only one that had not done anything against them.

He killed the most simpathetyc person in the Chantry to his cause, the only friend the mages could find outside. Nice way to work out a revolution bro, by giving to the public opinion the reinforcement that mages are monsters.;)

Because you know, terror is the only way that people would get on your side am I right?

[/quote]

Like I answered to brightblueink, if you define terrorism as "the systematic use of violence and  intimidation to achieve some goals".  Then the terrorist is the  Chantry.  And Anders actions are actually counter-terrorism.

If Anders began making demands from civilians, and threatening them to help, or be destroyed, then yes, I would understand the claim that he is a terrorist.

But he's blowing up the Chantry in self defense with the objective of putting a halt to the systematic abuse and oppression of mages.  He's trying to show his brethrens that the Chantry can be opposed.  If a single mage can manage to do that, then they may have much more power together than what the Chantry would like them to believe.

By doing so, he's also breaking the alliance between the Chantry and the Circles on a much larger scale.  What mages need isn't a Knight Commander that is more sympathetic to their cause.  They need the system itself to stop being narcissistic in nature.  Anders' attack in Kirkwall weren't directed at what was happening in Kirkwall per say, but were part of an effort to overthrow the Chantry.

As such, blowing up the Templars headquarters would solve nothing, it would be pure Vengeance, and completely silly from a strategic point of view.  Actually, the only way for Anders plan to trully work is for Meredith to declare the right of annulment on the Circles.  Meredith is Anders greatest ally in starting his revolution.  Murdering her would have been a huge mistake.

If Meredith had calmly reacted and gone "Quick, send word to the Divine that the Grand Cleric has been slain by an apostate, and the Chantry  building destroyed.  Ask her to send us someone to take on her duties until a new Grand Cleric has been officially appointed, and additional Templar troops arrive to replace those that were lost.  Meanwhile, I would like to ask for the help of the City Guards in order to make a threat assessment, and investigate whether Anders was working alone, or not.  If he had accomplices, rest assured that they shall be brought to justice.  First Enchanter Orsino, I trust that you will do your best to make sure that every mage in the Circle stays calm and is willing to collaborate with us.  You have my word, as Knight-Commander, that we will not blame the Circle for the action of a single troubled man.  I suggest that the surviving sisters and brothers of the Chantry be housedat the Viscount's keep until we find new housing arrangements for them until a new Chantry has been built..."

Well, let's simply say that Anders' plans would have utterly failed, and I'm pretty convinced he would never have attempted something as extreme as blowing up the Chantry in the first place if he'd thought that the Knight-Commander would take such a practical, diplomatic approach.

While the Templars used to be an autonomous order, they are now under the direct leadership and control of the Chantry.

Elthina appointed Meredith as Knight Commander, not the other way around.  And the codex entry states that Meredith is acting with the Grand Cleric's full support (though implicit, as long as the Grand Cleric isn't taking actions to stop Meredith from running the city as she wishes, she is "supporting" her).

Elthina has the power and responsibility to oversee the actions of both the Knight Commander, and the First Enchanter, and yet she is abusing her station by refusing to exert her power.  She's leaving the city to fend for itself without any real leader.

As such, Elthina is an even bigger part of the problem that Meredith ever was.  Not only isn't she not helping, but she is the biggest and most powerful enabler to what Meredith is doing.  She's keeping things in a stalemate where no resolution is possible...  Only the slow increase of abuse through Meredith.

I don't believe that Grand Cleric means any harm, or is even fully aware of the damage she is unwittingly causing.  But the fact remains that she is abusing her station and is the one that carries the most responsibility regarding what's happening in Kirkwall, whether she wants to recognise it, or not.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Nope, more on the light of, you will reinforce a narcissistic psycopath's sense of self worth and give him the indirect message that killing innocents for a good cause is allright. I mean Charles Manson's girlfriends said that he was a wonderful person too and that we just had to hear him singing, so hey, YMMV right?

NO not right. [/quote]

Once again, this is a matter of perception.

Would you say that people that tried to use violence against Hitler were wrong for taking such extremes?  That they should have kept trying to find a non violent solution for resolving the conflict?

I consider that the Chantry as it is right now is pretty close to being representative of the **** regime.

You see Anders as Charles Manson.

We are both entitled to our own perceptions, and I can't really argue with that.  ;)

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Which is funny because, I seem to have perceived the circle of violence between Templars and Mages to SCALATE instead after his actions.[/quote]

The violence was always there.  Except it was one sided, and covert.  What Anders did didn't create more violence, it only brought it into light.

Then again, I consider psychological and emotional violence as ever worse than physical one.  You can kill someone on a psychological level just as well as you can kill their bodies.  What would you rather see destroyed?  Your self, or your life?

Also, according to Varric's narration, his action DID bring the Chantry on the brink of collapse.  So overall, his plan seems to have been successful in breaking the cycle.

The question now is "how will they manage to recover?"  Once the fighting is done, how will they rebuild.  What type of model will the Chantry and the Circles adopt (if these institutions remain), or what will be the alternatives.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Or he is actually aware that it is not courage what made him do it, but Vengeance taking control, both are one because of how Vengeance uses him and takes control to further what it actually believes is right, which is twisted due to Anders views.

Justice doesn't understand the material world's rules, doesn't get why demons are killed on sight and stuff like that, the same way it doesn't understand death...all the info he gets is through Christoph and Anders, Christoph being a Gray Warden couldn't give it much information outside the Darkspawn and hints at his personal life. Anders on the other hand, feeded him by six years filled of experiences.

He knows that it is wrong, but he knows that Vengeance would try to step up and take it over because it is the only way it can do it. After all, it does only understand "fight" it doesn't understands "kill" so to it is ok killing Elthina as it is fighting Elthina to him...I don't know if I am clear in this.[/quote]

Justice may not understand many of the mortal's ways of being and thinking, but Anders does.  And a spirit is actually an emotion made "sentient".  Justice alone in the world would become very dysfunctional, very fast.  But as part of Anders, I think he can learn to adapt.  They seem to be doing pretty well at the end of the game.  IMHO.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

And it must be very important, judging for the huge ammount of people who died for him to win himself right? I mean, the guys at Columbine killed most of their College, but at least they are the ones laughing now right? and that is the important...because the rest of people were bullies who were belliting them and there is no better way to gain confidence on oneself than commiting mass murder obviously. It is the most adult way too.

/sarcasm mode off

[/quote]

Anders opposed Hitler, go Anders!  ;)

Seriously, I don't mind trying to make real life comparisons, but it is a game, and to make comparisons that would work, we should probably have try to go back to the Dark Ages, and the Medieval times.

I get where you are going with Columbine, but this is actually proving my point in many ways.  Chances are that these kids may have been the product of narcissistic families that never learned to develop their own sense of self, and instead dealt with the pain in agressive, destructive ways.

The Columbine shootings were wrong, as there would have been other options for them to gain their autonomy and to liberate themselves from their narcissisitc families' legacy.  These kids may have felt trapped and ended up taking their anger on others, but they weren't facing a totalitarian system of government on an incredibly large scale.

They weren't going up against the ****s!  There were people (psychologists, etc.) that could have helped them sort out their feelings and acquire their autonomy.  And, if they had decided to leave their school, and lead their own lives, they could.  Or they could have faced their oppressors in a non violent manner by gathering support from other people that had some power over the bullies.

I don't see how such options or resources could have been made available to Anders and other mages.  It's not like mages are allowed to leave the place where they are subjected to violence, and lead their own lives.

He didn't blow up the Chantry to vent his anger, get revenge, or make his oppressors suffer (as he has suffered).  He's trying to stop the abuse from happening again and again without opposition.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

That's...chapter 3. I don't think Anders genocidical quest for adulthood had anything to do on Hawke getting rich after the deep roads expedition or in getting rid of the Qunari from the city...

[/quote]  I know, but this is the most significant part of the game, that sets the scene for "Dragon Age 3".  And the part that ends up being more discussed in depths.  :D

(I skipped commenting on a few parts because it's once again a question of perception of the motivations behind Anders' actions.)

[quote]Bayz wrote...

And giving how the normal commoner on Thedas regards the mages, who do you think the majority of the population will side with in the onflict? That means killing off most of the Thedan population in the revolution, but it is fine because Anders had found himself right?

[/quote]

That's assuming that commoners will want to take arms against either sides.  If anything, the population will have lost their trust in the Chantry by then, after having witnessed just how incredibly easy it was for a single mage to start a revolution.

If they are smart, they will probably think "Hmmm...  It seems that the mages really are much more powerful than the Chantry would have us believe, and that they don't control them as much as they pretend they do.  Perhaps it would be a good thing then to try to talk to them and understand why they felt the need to revolt, and make sure they don't turn on the people".

Commoners and mages will have to learn to do what the Chantry has stopped them from doing for so long...  Really learn to communicate with each other.  Try to find a way to co-exist peacefully that will take in consideration the needs of both parties.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

Does Hawke value being used to start a war in a conflict that, things be told, not even most of the mages seem to agree with? if you like fantasy, read A Song of Ice and Fire, there is a part where Danereys frees all the slaves on a city, do you know what said slaves do? resell themselves in order to live, as freedom was actually killing them of starvation.

"Freeing" people is ok, but what when people just doesn't want to be freed? What when people wants to earn their freedom slowly but steady? Do we really have to impose our values of freedom on everybody else just because we believe that "we are right" even if that means the slaughtering of potentially million of innocents?

[/quote]

Very good and interesting point.  I love it!

However, if mages weren't ready to rebel, I wonder if the uprising of the Circles would have happened so fast.  In most mages (Wynne included), the desire for freedom was there...  They really just feared that opposing the Chantry (Templars) would end up with all the mages being wiped out.

If it's just a question of being resigned to the way things are because a purple world can only be purple, than yes, it's probably worth the risk.

If we invert the question, can we force mages that want to be free to remain trapped and be abused because some of their brothers and sisters aren't ready to be set free?

Modifié par River5, 18 décembre 2011 - 07:56 .


#17
River5

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Sorry, I hit the wrong button!  :blink:

Modifié par River5, 18 décembre 2011 - 08:01 .


#18
dragonflight288

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Very interesting points. And I know of a psychologist who did an in depth study of serial killers and columbine. One character flaw that is almost always there is narcissism. There was this one serial killer who honestly believed he was the greatest thing on earth, and he had the natural ability to charm women like crazy. He would charm women, lead them into a dark alley and kill them. He did this crossing the entire country (from California to some state on the East coast, don't remember which one.) When he was caught, he was honestly surprised anyone even noticed the women disappearing and being murdered because he honestly did not think anyone other than him mattered. And when he was sentenced to death, he thought the whole thing a big joke because no one could possibly have anything against him.

He was nuts, but his psychological profile (from what I've heard) is very similar to the Chantry...and different in many ways. One, he honestly felt he could do no wrong, no matter what he actually did. Two, when people questioned him and confronted him with his wrong-doing, he reacted poorly because there was no way he was in the wrong. And three, he honestly couldn't see how he hurt people in his own little fantasy world because they weren't him.

The Chantry feels more than justified having templars addicted to lyrium and recruiting from largely the religious zealots and not the people with integrity. They see no problems discriminating against magic and don't bother looking for better ways.

When I see zealous members of the Chantry like Petrice, Varnell, or Meredith, and you go forward and tell them they are wrong, how they're doing things is harmful to their own cause and isn't worth it, they lash out and don't know how to handle any challenge to their beliefs. (Petrice and Varnell, it was the Qunari, Meredith it was the idea that templars may be just as at fault for mages desperation as mages were) Meredith lashed out against Hawke, even a non-mage Hawke because her paranoia regarding the mages was through the roof.

The Chantry has functioned as it always has for over 1000 years. They have had the backing of the Orlesian Emperor in their founding, out of the many Andrastian cults of the time, and feel their view of the Chant of Light and the Maker is the only correct one. My mage warden is generally roleplayed as a believer in the Maker, but a cynic with anything dealing with the Chantry. Whose to say that some other Andrastian cult had more correct than the one just happened to be chosen by an Emperor? No one alive now because the heretics are wiped out from that time period.

#19
Gyrefalcon

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     That was an amazing analysis, River5.  And I have to agree that after much thought, Anders had to choose the Chantry to set Meredith loose.  Hitting the templars directly or Meredith would have solved the immediate problem but not changed the system. 

      Only removing the only thing holding Meredith back would allow her true colors to show and emphasize the abuses going on under people's noses.  The other Circles would be horrified that an Annulment would be called on a Circle because of the actions of a stranger from outside.  Realizing that "good behavior" would not protect them would cause them to react far more than the removal of one over-zealous Knight-Commander.

      I am curious if anyone has finished reading the DA book Asunder and might have some more insights since we have the reaction of Wynne and at least one Circle to the events.  I am sooooo curious as to how history is being written (or told) about this event. 

    

#20
Heimdall

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Gyrefalcon wrote...

     That was an amazing analysis, River5.  And I have to agree that after much thought, Anders had to choose the Chantry to set Meredith loose.  Hitting the templars directly or Meredith would have solved the immediate problem but not changed the system. 

      Only removing the only thing holding Meredith back would allow her true colors to show and emphasize the abuses going on under people's noses.  The other Circles would be horrified that an Annulment would be called on a Circle because of the actions of a stranger from outside.  Realizing that "good behavior" would not protect them would cause them to react far more than the removal of one over-zealous Knight-Commander.

      I am curious if anyone has finished reading the DA book Asunder and might have some more insights since we have the reaction of Wynne and at least one Circle to the events.  I am sooooo curious as to how history is being written (or told) about this event. 

    

Well, I finished the book yesterday.

It seems Kirkwall wasn't precisely the spark that starts the war.  It was veiwed as a mage rebellion by the Templars, who tightened the restrictions on Mages in the other Circles.  This displeased the Mages who were already shocked and angered by the Rite of Annulment in Kirkwall.  They don't seem to have all the facts yet, I imagine that's why Cassandra had to interrogate Varric.  They do know who Anders was, though just about everyone considers him a madman.  Even the leader of the Liberatarians, who said Anders had a point when it came to forcing a confrontation, couldn't say what Anders did was right.  (I despise that character, but for reasons of character not reasons of writing).  The prevailing tension, amongst other things I won't spoil, led to a final event near the end of the book that triggers the full mage rebellion and the split between the Chantry and the Templars.

So the end result:  Kirkwall prepped the fuel, Asunder provided the spark.

Wynne was still campaigning for a peacefully reformed Circle that was agreeable to Mages and the Chantry.  To that end she formed a partnership with the Divine (Leliana introduced them).  It turns out the Divine was campaigning for the same thing but the Templars and centuries of doctrine and tradition are not so easily swayed by even the Divine.

#21
Gyrefalcon

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(Mostly off-topic, leaning towards world discussion, sorry.)

@Lord Aesir: Thanks for that update! The books may be providing a little more bracketing of the backdrop we will be facing for DA3 (or even a longer expansion in-between like Awakenings was). It really looks like we are headed for Dragon Age: The Mage Wars. Either the Circles are headed for serious reform or complete abolishment. And I can't say I am at all unhappy! I am glad they are not trying to stick with just flood upon flood of darkspawn to drive the series. "Mundane" threats are just as chilling for the populous as supernatural ones and may be harder for the people of Thedas since they have to work together tightly to survive the ongoing threats from without. (Although I still wonder if there are enough people to keep the races of the world alive since we seem to see about 95% attrition around our characters.) I will have to get Asunder myself, but sadly it will be in late January at the earliest for me at this point. I am happy to see Wynne made it into the novels. I like to know what happened to the characters we got to know in the other games and see that they continue to live and grow beyond the events of that time period. ^-^

I have played a number of games but the Dragon Age series is the first to really allow deep discussions and dissection in the way that novels do. It feels like the real breakthrough in maturation of the medium. It makes for such an exciting time to be a part of the gaming world. I do wish they spent a bit more time creating different maps/environs so that this game would get more attention by the reviewers/gaming awards committees. So I will stop clogging the page now with fan-gushing and return it to the very interesting discussion that was already in progress! ^-^

#22
Dean_the_Young

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River5 wrote...

Whereas, in a healthy family, parents are expected to:
- provide love and positive reinforcements;
- allow their children to express their feelings and develop a sense of personal identity;
- encourage them to gain their autonomy and make decisions for themselves (while also being empathetic and respectful towards others);
- teach them to act responsibly, set healthy boundaries for themselves;
- and learn to trust in themselves and in others…

Decadent western cultural individualism. Asian culture is where it's at.

[/joking]

#23
River5

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Well, I finished the book yesterday.

It seems Kirkwall wasn't precisely the spark that starts the war.  It was veiwed as a mage rebellion by the Templars, who tightened the restrictions on Mages in the other Circles.  This displeased the Mages who were already shocked and angered by the Rite of Annulment in Kirkwall.  They don't seem to have all the facts yet, I imagine that's why Cassandra had to interrogate Varric.  They do know who Anders was, though just about everyone considers him a madman.  Even the leader of the Liberatarians, who said Anders had a point when it came to forcing a confrontation, couldn't say what Anders did was right.  (I despise that character, but for reasons of character not reasons of writing).  The prevailing tension, amongst other things I won't spoil, led to a final event near the end of the book that triggers the full mage rebellion and the split between the Chantry and the Templars.

So the end result:  Kirkwall prepped the fuel, Asunder provided the spark.

Wynne was still campaigning for a peacefully reformed Circle that was agreeable to Mages and the Chantry.  To that end she formed a partnership with the Divine (Leliana introduced them).  It turns out the Divine was campaigning for the same thing but the Templars and centuries of doctrine and tradition are not so easily swayed by even the Divine.


Oooh...  Thank you so much for the update!  :D I just ordered the book, but they told me that it might take 2 to 3 weeks before it is delivered.

Hmmm...  Very interesting...

Leliana's attitude when you meet her in Kirkwall seems to suggest that the Divine and herself support the Templars by saying things like "If Kirkwall falls to magic, none of us are safe", and mentionning that they (the Chantry) have "tolerated" the Resolutionnists.  She seems only interested in the Grand Cleric's safety, not at all in investigating the way that the Knight Commander is abusing her power (with the Grand Cleric's blessing) and committing atrocities all around the city.

Or perhaps Elthina lied when she said that the Divine was planning an Exalted March on Kirkwall because of the unrest with the mages (her way to encourage Kirkwall's population to become more compliant, perhaps?)...  When in fact, the Divine was actively seeking to stop the abuse that the mages suffer in the Circles.

Had Anders known that he could have had a powerful ally willing to listen to him (as she apparently was willing to listen to Wynne), I wonder what he would have done differently.

Damnit Leliana!  Couldn't you grab a copy of Anders' manifesto on the way out?  It's not like the bloody thing is hard to find!  ;)

I was also wondering, you mentioned that many of them know about Anders, but does the book say anything about what happened to him after Kirkwall?

Is what happens to him after the "boom" incident really left to the player's choice (i.e. the characters don't seem to know)?  Or is one particular ending considered canon by the book?

#24
River5

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

River5 wrote...

Whereas, in a healthy family, parents are expected to:
- provide love and positive reinforcements;
- allow their children to express their feelings and develop a sense of personal identity;
- encourage them to gain their autonomy and make decisions for themselves (while also being empathetic and respectful towards others);
- teach them to act responsibly, set healthy boundaries for themselves;
- and learn to trust in themselves and in others…

Decadent western cultural individualism. Asian culture is where it's at.

[/joking]


Lol!  :D  Well yes...  Of course, it always becomes a question of balance.  ;)  You must first develop a sense of self before you can effectively determine your place and your role within a group.  If you are exclusively empathic to the needs of others, yet don't have a single clue what your own needs are and how to satisfy them, you won't be able to learn to give selflessly.

You will sacrifice your own well being for others while always expecting something (love, recognition, admiration, etc.) in return, because you won't know how to be self-reliant.  You will become either co-dependant, or an inverted narcissist.

Healthy individualism includes being well adapted to live and function within a society by also remaining acutely aware of the needs of other people surrounding you.  Unhealthy individualism (a.k.a. individualism without empathy) is narcism.

I know that you meant it as a joke, but I thought I might specify.

#25
Darkrider296

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Elthina was acting. She acted by restraining Meredith's more extreme actions. And that is literally all she could have done without te whole gallows scene happening anyway. For your information, Meredith had been writing to the Divine behind Elthina's back because she had refused her requests for the rite.

Once again you persist in viewing mages as Kirkwall and fail to understand the reality of Elthina's situation.

On one hand, you have the Divine telling her that the mages in Kirkwall are going out of control and threaten the city, Meredith whistling the more extreme version. In truth, they aren't wrong. What are the nighttime gangs in Act 3? A group of blood mages and an army of thralls large enough to attack a small city, a demonic cult, and mage led ring of Tervinter Slavers. Then there are the Resolutionists running around. On the other side is her genuine concern for mages. She's likely smart enough to know that the Templars would probably be able to win if push came to shove in the Gallows anyway, leaving all the mages dead,

Here's the part you've been missing: HER CONCERN IS FOR THE PEOPLE OF KIRKWALL

and

THE COMMON PEOPLE OF KIRKWALL ARE NOT THE MAGES

The mages are a tiny minority. It is Kirkwall and the common people that she was given responsibility over. If a war breaks out between Templar and mage, the common people would be slaughtered in the crossfire. Her job is to protect them and that means forcing the situation to war is the opposite of what she wants to do. The rumored Exalted March would cause the same effect.

Is sacrificing the many for the few just? Regardless, I don't particularly care about your beliefs regarding change in Thedas. My point was that Elthina's duty was to THE COMMON PEOPLE OF KIRKWALL, NOT THE MAGES. And she did all that was in her power to fulfill that duty. Anything else she did would have been to directly fail in her duty and bring harm to the flock to which she was assigned, the flock many of whom she has known since birth. If anyone who does not sacrifice the common people for the sake of mages is a power mongering chantry bigot to you I suggest you go to Tervinter, you'd like it there. Only mages matter.

I feel no more need to educate you as the logic is plain here for you to see once you let go of your emptional and irrational hatred of Elthina.  I'll leave it at this.  Adieu.

Ur missing the point. I believe the system Elthina represents is inherantly wrong. Her organization persecute non believers (Elves) and maintain that keeping people certain people in one spot their whole lives is the answer. :sick: