46 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkrider296]

Thank you so much. I hate it when people claim that Anders in DA 2 isn't developed. He's a brilliant character.

[Darkrider296]

Probably the most important thing I ever read on these forums.

[Malanu]

Honestly I find the whole way magic is treated in Thedas as quite silly. If you lock up a person and constantly tell them they are eventually going to do something bad, You have just created a self fulfilling prophecy. Then add in the ever present threat of annulment and what kind of mage's do you expect to have? Thedas is the only setting I know of that does not have a school/guild for mages run by mages to teach the good and bad of magic and enforcing the balance of power in house. And as there are Gods why don't the clerics have divine powers granted by the gods?

I've only been reading/playing Fantasy fiction for some 30 years...

[esper]

Malanu wrote...

Honestly I find the whole way magic is treated in Thedas as quite silly. If you lock up a person and constantly tell them they are eventually going to do something bad, You have just created a self fulfilling prophecy. Then add in the ever present threat of annulment and what kind of mage's do you expect to have? Thedas is the only setting I know of that does not have a school/guild for mages run by mages to teach the good and bad of magic and enforcing the balance of power in house. And as there are Gods why don't the clerics have divine powers granted by the gods?

I've only been reading/playing Fantasy fiction for some 30 years...

Perhaps because Thedians are not any more sure that their gods exist than we are.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Malanu wrote...

Honestly I find the whole way magic is treated in Thedas as quite silly. If you lock up a person and constantly tell them they are eventually going to do something bad, You have just created a self fulfilling prophecy. Then add in the ever present threat of annulment and what kind of mage's do you expect to have? Thedas is the only setting I know of that does not have a school/guild for mages run by mages to teach the good and bad of magic and enforcing the balance of power in house. And as there are Gods why don't the clerics have divine powers granted by the gods?

I've only been reading/playing Fantasy fiction for some 30 years...

The Old Gods are not truly "gods" as in a divinity, and there is no proof of the Maker's existance.

By the way, the Circle IS a school for mages to learn to control their power. However, since magic is a lot more dangerous, with the threat of possession, than in say, Harry Potter, there are a need for more control than in other settings.

[Lazy Jer]

I want to start out by saying that laziness and walls of text go together like the positive side of one magnet and the positive side of another magnet.  It took a lot of doing, but I got through the whole thing.  Interesting idea, River5, and one you've clearly put a lot of thought into.

I don't see, as you do, the story being about Anders, but then I left him out of the party more often then not.  I'm not sure I see the Circle/Chantry system the same way you do either.  There are so many people with so many different motivations in the respective organizations, in my opinion, that I feel that putting the system into that family dynamic you suggested just oversimplifies them too much and implies that all members of those orgnizations are the same character with no divergent personalities therein.

P.S. I haven't read the other posts in this thread...have the arguments started yet?

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have much to say, except that I completely agree. This sums up exactly how I feel about Anders and the Chantry/Circle conflict, but I never had this psychological family model to compare it to before.

I was quite happy when the Chantry was destroyed and Elthina was killed.  It was pretty clear to me that her claim of neutrality was pretty bogus. She's not innocent in this conflict, she is not neutral and she is certainly not sympathetic to mages. She's a passive-aggressive, manipulative ****, and if you ask me she got what she had coming.

The Chantry as a whole (and Elthina, as its representative for Kirkwall) has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. It uses fear and misinformation to pit the mages and regular citizenry against each other, distracting them from the fact that the Chantry itself is and always has been the problem.

...and that's why I stopped talking to you.  I wasn't going to reply to this post, but I felt I had to ask...the chantry is what problem exactly?

I don't "hate" Elthina, I don't feel anything for her, because she's a ****ing videogame character and I'm not retarded. I'm simply stating the facts, and the fact is that she's a stupid, useless coward.

Furthermore, I'd like to know if you're aware of the technical distinction between fact and opinion.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 22 février 2012 - 09:14 .

[Xilizhra]

...and that's why I stopped talking to you. I wasn't going to reply to this post, but I felt I had to ask...the chantry is what problem exactly?

Er, that which keeps mages oppressed? Not to mention shills for the political power of Orlais.

Furthermore, I'd like to know if you're aware of the technical distinction between fact and opinion.

You must admit, she does extremely little, if anything, of value throughout the whole game.

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

...and that's why I stopped talking to you. I wasn't going to reply to this post, but I felt I had to ask...the chantry is what problem exactly?

Er, that which keeps mages oppressed? Not to mention shills for the political power of Orlais.

No, the assumtion that the role Elthina played made her quiet deserving of death.  I disagree so fundamentally with Plaintiff in this regard that debating whether or not innocent lives were lost in Anders explosion (which is the only thing I've argued with Plaintiff thus far), is moot because we appear to have a fundamental disagreement in the definition of "innocent".

Furthermore, I'd like to know if you're aware of the technical distinction between fact and opinion.

You must admit, she does extremely little, if anything, of value throughout the whole game.

I'll admit that she didn't do as much as she could have, but you must admit the declaration of Elthina as stupid or cowardly is opinion, not fact.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 22 février 2012 - 09:41 .

[Xilizhra]

No, the assumtion that the role Elthina played made her quiet deserving of death. I disagree so fundamentally with Plaintiff in this regard that debating whether or not innocent lives were lost in Anders explosion (which is the only thing I've argued with Plaintiff thus far), is moot because we appear to have a fundamental disagreement in the definition of "innocent".

I don't believe anyone deserves to die, but I don't mourn Elthina much. She's guilty of gross criminal negligence and shares culpability in the egregious templar abuses going on in the Gallows.

I'll admit that she didn't do as much as she could have, but you must admit the declaration of Elthina as stupid or cowardly is opinion, not fact.

The parameters of said terms are subjective and so yes, it is opinion.

[Patchwork]

The Hawkes are narcissistic family sure, Malcolm and later Bethany and possibly the PC shape everything in their lives. It's a bit of a stretch to apply it to the chantry-circle system however.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 22 février 2012 - 10:06 .

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't believe anyone deserves to die, but I don't mourn Elthina much. She's guilty of gross criminal negligence and shares culpability in the egregious templar abuses going on in the Gallows.

 
I'm not even sure I'd go that far.  I'll admit I haven't done a lot of research on what Elthina might have done/not done during the game.  In order for me to consider her criminally negligent I'd have to know (a) how much she knew about what was going on in the Gallows (which I don't know), ( what actions she took to address grievances brought to her attention regarding the circle (which I also don't know) or even if those grievences actually managed to arrive at her doorstep (which I don't know). 

Elthina must have known that more and more mages were turning to blood magic but I don't assume she knew this was directly related to how Meredeth was running the circle, and furthermore the rise in blood magic doesn't begin until Act 3.  If the circle mages weren't allowed to contact Elthina or the Chantry to air their grievences (which I believe is probable) then we take out the assumtion that it absolutely has to be the fault of Knight-Commander Meredeth in Elthina's mind.  Should she have done more investigation, sure, but I'm not sure if that makes her criminally negligent.

We also know that Elthina knew that Meredeth was running the city and not allowing a new Viscount to be elected.  This is what I take the most issue with about Elthina's lack of action. 

I'll admit that she didn't do as much as she could have, but you must admit the declaration of Elthina as stupid or cowardly is opinion, not fact.

The parameters of said terms are subjective and so yes, it is opinion.

So a statement about Elthina being stupid, useless and cowardly, therefore can't be a fact.

[Lazy Jer]

Ser Bard wrote...

The Hawkes are narcissistic family sure, Malcolm and later Bethany and possibly the PC shape everything in their lives. It's a bit of a stretch to apply it to the chantry-circle system however.

I really don't think the Hawkes are narcissistic.  There's a difference between shaping everything in your life and believing that your life shapes everything.

[Darkrider296]

Lord Aesir wrote...

She can't keep Meredith under control. She simply doesn't have the power. Despite this you keep insisting that she should.

Kirkwall was a good sight better off suffering occasional harrasment from Templars than it was when mages, demons, and Templars are tearing the very city apart. You can brush all them under the rug as collateral damage if you like, she will not. Unlike you, she has regard for the individual life and distinguishes between destroying half the city and non lethal Templar raids to search for mages.

She keeps Meredith and Orsino from launching the city into war. That is the grievance she addresses. That is the most important thing she can do. To do that she has to make sure Meredith never reaches the point that she feels she must destroy the mages utterly and disregard Elthina. In order to do this she cannot afford to give favoritism to the mages. In order to protect her flock, she must not.

Elthina helped the entire city. There's a reason Anders decided to kill her. Without her Meredith would have tried to annul the circle long ago and the whole situation would have happened sooner. Without her, the city would be in shambles with thousands dead including the circle of magi.

She did her duty.  It may not have been enough but it was all she could do.  She cannot be faulted for that.

This is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I think the organization that she is part of is evil. It destoryed Elvan culture and doesn't seem to help at all in terms of  servicing the poor and needy. ( a bit in first game) It represents the power stucture of Thedas and I think its high time someone declared war on it as a flawed instatution that needs to stop being oppresive and change or be demolished with the times. Some Mages can be Crazy. Just like people from any anyother race or group. Oralsis and Dwarfen society is ****ed just as much as Tevinter. Same with Antivia (I mean  come on, kids being bought to be assassins). Yet the Chantry doesn't do a thing to stop the corrupt officals in those nations. Tevinter is a terriable place but lets not forgot that other places are to. I hate it when people use that as an excuse as to why ALL mages are evil. Yeah right. Most mages are pathologized into the arms of demons. Thedas is a sickening evil place 

Modifié par Darkrider296, 23 février 2012 - 02:23 .

[Darkrider296]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Malanu wrote...

Honestly I find the whole way magic is treated in Thedas as quite silly. If you lock up a person and constantly tell them they are eventually going to do something bad, You have just created a self fulfilling prophecy. Then add in the ever present threat of annulment and what kind of mage's do you expect to have? Thedas is the only setting I know of that does not have a school/guild for mages run by mages to teach the good and bad of magic and enforcing the balance of power in house. And as there are Gods why don't the clerics have divine powers granted by the gods?

I've only been reading/playing Fantasy fiction for some 30 years...

The Old Gods are not truly "gods" as in a divinity, and there is no proof of the Maker's existance.

By the way, the Circle IS a school for mages to learn to control their power. However, since magic is a lot more dangerous, with the threat of possession, than in say, Harry Potter, there are a need for more control than in other settings.

Yes Education is essential for young mages. But then you could argue that it is for any person. But I draw the lines were basic rights are disregarded. Tranquality is never accetable in my opinion. If a mage is struggling give him more teaching, hell even guard him until is deemned strong enough to take down demons. Plus I also think the elves have a better system. If a VERY occisonal Keeper turns to a demon than the Eleves band together and take it down. Collective responseiblity instead of lets lock them away and keep them as weapons in storage because they CAN be dangerous. Even the most i"deal" circles by the Chantry's standards are wrong in my opinion. They want mages to be self loathing bootlickers who have no desire to go outside or enjoy life with family/friends/lovers. Hell I wanted to spit in Circle Bethany's face in Legacy after hearing what she said to Anders regarding Mages. 

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have much to say, except that I completely agree. This sums up exactly how I feel about Anders and the Chantry/Circle conflict, but I never had this psychological family model to compare it to before.

I was quite happy when the Chantry was destroyed and Elthina was killed.  It was pretty clear to me that her claim of neutrality was pretty bogus. She's not innocent in this conflict, she is not neutral and she is certainly not sympathetic to mages. She's a passive-aggressive, manipulative ****, and if you ask me she got what she had coming.

The Chantry as a whole (and Elthina, as its representative for Kirkwall) has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. It uses fear and misinformation to pit the mages and regular citizenry against each other, distracting them from the fact that the Chantry itself is and always has been the problem.

...and that's why I stopped talking to you.  I wasn't going to reply to this post, but I felt I had to ask...the chantry is what problem exactly?

The Chantry is the problem of an oppressive political power claiming the right to rule others based on the authority of an absent diety.

And it's not just oppressive to mages.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Old Gods are not truly "gods" as in a divinity, and there is no proof of the Maker's existance.

Not entirely true methinks, given this David Gaider quote from long ago:

http://social.biowar.../index/508455/3

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Chantry is the problem of an oppressive political power claiming the right to rule others based on the authority of an absent diety.

And it's not just oppressive to mages.

Citation needed on the following items:

1. Claiming the right to rule.  The last time I checked every city that had a Chantry also had a local ruler, except Lothering and that's because the people ruling it up and left and the Chantry was all that was left.  Redcliff had the Bann and the local Sheriff, Denerium had the King/Queen/Teyrn Loghain, Kirkwall had the Viscount.  So exactly how is the Chantry claiming the right to rule absent diety or no.

2. Not Just Oppressive to Mages:  The oppression of mages comes through the Templar Order.  The highest ranking person in any Circle of Magi, Knight-Commander.  The Chantry itself puts a mother or sister to prattle on about the Chant of Light in sermons that may not even be mandatory.  The Chant or Light has passages that talk about "the evils of magic" yes, but ultimately it's the Knight-Commander of any one Circle that chooses how oppressive or lenient he or she wants to be.

That being said, the Chantry doesn't control the lives of the citizenry.  It doesn't send armed soldiers around the local farms and shops to drag people out of their homes to force them to attend it's sermons.  It a religion, and like any religion it has a list of behaviors it wishes it's members to subscribe to, but it does not force it's will on any member of the public outside of known mages.

I know you don't like the Chantry but let's not put them down for crimes they aren't guilty of.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually the First Enchanter outranks the Knight-Commander in Circle matters, but since the Knight-Commander can always wave the Right of Annulment over the head of the First Enchanter, it prevents the First Enchanter from doing anything too much agaisnt the wishes of the Templars.

[Lazy Jer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the First Enchanter outranks the Knight-Commander in Circle matters, but since the Knight-Commander can always wave the Right of Annulment over the head of the First Enchanter, it prevents the First Enchanter from doing anything too much agaisnt the wishes of the Templars.

Weeellll...given what I've seen the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander seem as though their intended to be on equal ground.  Take First Enchanter Irving's comment in DA:O "I'm sure we'll be at each other's throats again in no time."  Meaning they get into a lot of arguements.  If the Knight-Commander even deens to argue rather then just saying "I'm right you could agree with me or  be Tranquilized." then the office itself must have some amount of power to it.

The problem is that in a situation like that the real power usually ends up being the person who is more agressive in personality.  In this situation the Knight-Commander is inherently going to be more agressive since he not only has the Right of Annulment, but also has a small army of soldiers trained specifically to fight mages against a bunch of mages that are most assuredly not trained to fight Templars.

So what I'm saying is I don't know exactly where the first commander's role is intended to be, but he or she will always end up being subservient due to the nature of his or her condition.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is illegal to tranquil a mage who has passed his Harrowing, not to mention any legal tranquilization of a mage, requires the First Enchanter's signature. I doubt the Knight-Commander could use the threat of the Rite on the First Enchanter.

Knight-Commander Greagoir says it like, that the Templars are there supervise and guide, not to rule and judge. That is the area of the First Enchanter and the Senior Enchanters. of course, if any of these break the rules of the Circle and/or Chantry, the Templars are there to stop them.

[dragonflight288]

It is illegal to tranquil a mage who has passed his Harrowing, not to mention any legal tranquilization of a mage, requires the First Enchanter's signature. I doubt the Knight-Commander could use the threat of the Rite on the First Enchanter.

Knight-Commander Greagoir says it like, that the Templars are there supervise and guide, not to rule and judge. That is the area of the First Enchanter and the Senior Enchanters. of course, if any of these break the rules of the Circle and/or Chantry, the Templars are there to stop them.

Well, Meredith and the Lord High Seeker both did a grand job helping guide the Circle....not. Meredith was ruling and judging. She ruled because she got so involved in Kirkwall politics, far beyond her station as Knight-Commander. She was the defacto Viscount for three years and refused to allow the city to rule itself.

She and the Lord High Seeker have one thing in common. It's their way or death. Meredith went over Elthina's head to get authorization for the Right of Annulment. The LHS openly defied the Divine so he could have a right of annulment. Didn't matter that the head of the church disagreed. He completely disregarded her because she wasn't hardcore enough. Plain and simple.

What the templars are supposed to do? Yes, Gregoire had the right of it. What is actually practiced? Less of what Gregoire espoused and more of what Meredith practiced.