47 réponses à ce sujet

[Arius23]

I just finished my 3rd playthrough, and I realized that I never even stopped to think about what the heck was going on at the end of the game.  I'm not sure if this is because the ending made no sense, or was so abrupt, or what, but regardless, I'm confused.

So I know the red lyrium idol from the primeval thaig apparently makes people go insane, but it also gave Meredith superpowers, like the ability to jump 10 stories in the air.  Also, apparently it brings statues to life and affects dwarves, which I thought were immune to the affects of lyrium (although if I remember right, there was a dwarf strung out on lyrium in Orzammar, one of the shopkeepers).  And then, apparently you don't actually defeat Meredith, the red lyrium just kills her, so even without your intervention, she would have died anyway...right?

All of this just seemed so random and out of place, especially the statues coming alive for some reason.  Was there a better explanation that I missed on what happened to Meredith at the end?

[Plaintiff]

As yet, there is no explanation for the red lyrium. This does not mean an explanation does not exist; simply that it hasn't been given to us. It's not clear if madness and superpowers are a natural side effect of red lyrium, or something that is specific to the idol.

But Dragon Age 2 is only the intermediary installment in a series that looks set to be at least a trilogy. It is not required to answer all or even any of the questions it raises. I dare say the truth behind red lyrium, and the implications of its existence for the rest of Thedas will be made clear in time. Perhaps in future DLC or the next main game.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[Heimdall]

Well, you did kill Meredith. You pushed her to her limit and when she tried to get more power, because what she had wasn't going to kill Hawke, and that killed her. It's a slightly indirect method, but you did kill her.

Anyway, Plaintiff has the right of it. Dragon Age will probably be more than three games if the next one goes well, but DA2 was definitely an intermediary largely focused on getting the story to where the devs want it to be for DA 3. If there are any answers for red lyrium. I'm guessing you'll find them there.

[whykikyouwhy]

@OP - There are plenty of theories regarding the red lyrium, and you could probably find some older threads to dig into. And while we don't yet know the true source/context/powers of the stuff, as the other posters have stated, its certainly fun to speculate.

(And I'll just say this as far as the statues go - that could be all due to just the hotbed of crazy that Hellmouth!Kirkwall is, or maybe there's red lyrium in the statues. They may look all bronze from the outside, but perhaps they have a glowing-with-potential-evil center.)

I think we'll get some sort of explanation (albeit not for everything) in time. There are already hints and clues from DA:A and such that point to weird things occuring in the thaigs. We may just be building up to a much heavier plot arc with regard to those matters. Here's hoping.

[sylvanaerie]

I think the bit with the statues is they were Golems created by the Tevinters back in the day to help quell uprisings in the Gallows. Merrydeath just activated them via the red kryptoni...I mean lyrium...and brought the magic to 'life' so to speak. At least they seemed like Golems to me?

As for the red lyrium and its affects on dwarves, well the lyrium dwarves are used to is a blue kind. And the thaig was so ancient it precedes dwarven society (no statues of paragons, those strange walking rock wraith things you fight after you get locked down there - the name escapes me at the moment...starts with a "p" I think?) For all we know it's the former inhabitants all turned to lyrium just like Meredith only animated.

As for the flying, super-Meredith...ummm no answers there. I thought that was actually pretty stupid. I guess they felt a need to make her impressive just as they felt a need to have Orsino turn on the very people there trying to save him and he goes all bloodmagey-frankenstien's monster on you.

Of course, at this time (as others pointed out) it's all speculation, but that's part of the fun of the game right?

[TEWR]

I think the bit with the statues is they were Golems created by the Tevinters back in the day to help quell uprisings in the Gallows. Merrydeath just activated them via the red kryptoni...I mean lyrium...and brought the magic to 'life' so to speak. At least they seemed like Golems to me?

You're almost right I think. They were just statues from the time of Tevinter imperium that were made into Golems by Meredith's lyriumsaber.

At least that's how I see it. Makes the most sense, although admittedly it is still speculation.

The process of creating a Golem requires a few things: metal/stone, lyrium, and a soul.

Red Lyrium either bypasses the need for a soul or Red lyrium has souls inside of it.

As for the red lyrium and its affects on dwarves, well the lyrium dwarves are used to is a blue kind. And the thaig was so ancient it precedes dwarven society (no statues of paragons, those strange walking rock wraith things you fight after you get locked down there - the name escapes me at the moment...starts with a "p" I think?) For all we know it's the former inhabitants all turned to lyrium just like Meredith only animated.

The Profane.

And I've thought the same thing, but I'm more inclined to think the Rock Wraiths -- the Profane -- are the original inhabitants of the Primeval Thaig. Mostly anyway.

Since the Dwarven stories say that they were Dwarves the Stone rejected -- and there does seem to be some truth to the whole Stone thing -- I think they really were once Dwarves. Add into that the fact that the Rock Wraiths of the Thaig can be possessed by demons and I think Dwarves were at one point mages.

As for the flying, super-Meredith...ummm no answers there. I thought that was actually pretty stupid. I guess they felt a need to make her impressive just as they felt a need to have Orsino turn on the very people there trying to save him and he goes all bloodmagey-frankenstien's monster on you.

Man, I hate both Meredith's super-jumps and Orsino's nonsensical need to be another boss fight like Bioware wanted instead of allowing the player to forgive him or fight him if they so choosed.

Why they'll defend that as a good idea I won't ever know.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 décembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[Arius23]

These are all great theories, thanks everyone.

I just pray that DA3 answers a lot of questions about the series. Opening new questions is of course a good thing, but there are still questions from Origins that haven't been answered! Each game in the series should be a progression that closes a few doors and opens a few more, or at least gives us a deeper insight into what is going on with regards to the main storyline(s).

[Fast Jimmy]

Arius23 wrote...

These are all great theories, thanks everyone.

I just pray that DA3 answers a lot of questions about the series. Opening new questions is of course a good thing, but there are still questions from Origins that haven't been answered! Each game in the series should be a progression that closes a few doors and opens a few more, or at least gives us a deeper insight into what is going on with regards to the main storyline(s).

<sigh> Not trying to sound like a Negative Nate, but that's exactly what I said about DA2 and all the questions DAA and the other DA DLC that was released.

But instead of answering ANY of the questions raised by the first game, DA2 answered and ignored them all, and only served to retcon some things and raise dozens more questions with no answers in sight.

I have my doubts that the writing team has any real idea of what they want to do with their world or what ANY of the answers may be.

Again, not trying to be Donnie Downer here, but just stating my observations. And frustrations.

I'm a being of narrative structure. If you pose a question, either explain why its NOT goign to be explained, or explain it.

[Gervaise]

People jumping impossibly high in the air seems a feature of DA2. In MoA Tallis also seems to have developed this trait. Perhaps it is something they put in the water in Kirkwall. Let's hope that in future such absurdities will be avoided.

[Weltenschlange]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Man, I hate [...] Orsino's nonsensical need to be another boss fight like Bioware wanted instead of allowing the player to forgive him or fight him if they so choosed.

Why they'll defend that as a good idea I won't ever know.

From your mouth to Andraste's ear.

What I found most baffling about this fight is the fact that you also have to do it when you struggle FOR the mages.

("Dude we are winning! Why did you just turn yourself into a corpse monster?!? Oh the humanity!!!")

[jbrand2002uk]

well from what i recall the templars have to drink lyrium right which i gather is the usual blue lyrium described as magic in its raw form and as i recall templar specials like holy smite are magic attacks of a sort maybe her abilities are from a corruption of the red lyrium sword combined with the blue lyrium in her blood and lets not forget her sister was a mage so maybe she had some dormant magic ability that was unleashed by the combination of the two types of lyrium.

As for the statues and Kirkwall As I recall the lore says that the harbour was carved out by magic though the city itself was constructed by Dwarves employed/slaved by the Tevinters

[AlexXIV]

I don't really expect more of an explaination than that it was a gameplay mechanic and we shouldn't take it at face value. I don't know what Bioware was thinking and until proven otherwise I am going to assume that they themselves don't know what they were thinking either.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 décembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Plaintiff]

Weltenschlange wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Man, I hate [...] Orsino's nonsensical need to be another boss fight like Bioware wanted instead of allowing the player to forgive him or fight him if they so choosed.

Why they'll defend that as a good idea I won't ever know.

From your mouth to Andraste's ear.

What I found most baffling about this fight is the fact that you also have to do it when you struggle FOR the mages.

("Dude we are winning! Why did you just turn yourself into a corpse monster?!? Oh the humanity!!!")

Because you aren't winning. The cutscene clearly shows that most of the mages you defended are dead.

[TEWR]

Which is absurd given that you quite easily curbstomp the Templars and can protect all of the mages.

Bioware needs to start accounting for whether NPCs live or die in battle. Other games have done this before.

I'm sick and tired of saving all of the mages trapped by Uldred and keeping all the mages near Orsino alive only to have them all die from a sudden heartattack brought on by an infection of the big toe.

At the same time too.

It breaks my immersion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 décembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[csfteeeer]

"I Don't Understand the Ending"

What Ending?

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which is absurd given that you quite easily curbstomp the Templars and can protect all of the mages.

Bioware needs to start accounting for whether NPCs live or die in battle. Other games have done this before.

I'm sick and tired of saving all of the mages trapped by Uldred and keeping all the mages near Orsino alive only to have them all die from a sudden heartattack brought on by an infection of the big toe.

At the same time too.

It breaks my immersion.

Zevran can get his head cut off, and so can Bann Teagan, but they'll sit up and talk to you later. It's called Gameplay/Story segregation and it happens all the time. Which is just as well, because I'm sure players would be more than a little butthurt about missing out on a ton of story content just because of a random death animation. Sometimes, immersion is going to get broken. It happens, it's an inherent risk of making and playing videogames. Getting butthurt about every specific instance helps nobody.

"Other games do it", doesn't mean Bioware, or any other developer for that matter, is obliged to follow suit. In fact, overall, very few of them do.  As it happens, Bioware does account for death of minor NPCs in some quests. (Defending Redcliffe, Otto the blind templar), but in neither instance are there any long-term repercussions. It is not necessary or practical for them to do the same for the bulk of major story quests.

In both Origins and DA2, and indeed, in any game that allows players to affect the plot to any degree, there are certain boxes that have to be ticked. You don't have to agree with every single one, but it's an issue that you're going to have to deal with, because game developers aren't slaves to your immersion. If you don't like it, then find a less plot-driven game with the mechanics in place to allow for that sort of thing. But I dare say you'll still find similar instances to complain about, even then.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zevran can get his head cut off, and so can Bann Teagan, but they'll sit up and talk to you later. It's called Gameplay/Story segregation and it happens all the time. Which is just as well, because I'm sure players would be more than a little butthurt about missing out on a ton of story content just because of a random death animation. Sometimes, immersion is going to get broken. It happens, it's an inherent risk of making and playing videogames. Getting butthurt about every specific instance helps nobody.

You can toss around the word butthurt all you want and say that's how I am, but that makes you look somewhat immature.

Gameplay and the story should not be segregated. Gameplay should reflect upon the lore.

I could accept the mages dying if something like this happened for the Circle confrontation with Uldred:

1) Upon killing Uldred, his pride demon body falls to the ground and explodes in fire. Irving happens to be the only mage who was able to bring up a barrier that protected him. This would not require a cutscene, as Abominations in Origins exploded in fire all the time outside of cutscenes. I don't know why, but I assumed it was due to the nature of the Abominations. This way, there is a valid reason for the mages dying and Irving surviving. They were all burnt to a crisp

Or for Orsino's mages.

2) After the battle a cutscene ensues that shows even more Templars bursting through, slaughtering some of the mages before the companions, Hawke, and Orsino kill them. This would show that the first wave of Templars, despite being easily curbstomped, were followed by even more Templars that caught the mages by surprise. Then, Bioware should've retained the original idea they came up with. Where the player could forgive Orsino and he would live, or fight him and he would end up dying. Instead, they removed that in favor of having another boss fight.

While Orsino's characterization would've still been bad, this would've made the entire segment more tolerable.

So, while I would like there to be an accounting of who lives and dies in all instances where the player is responsible for life, I can accept people dying if there is a valid reason why.

just having them drop dead for no reason is just bad.

"Other games do it", doesn't mean Bioware, or any other developer for that matter, is obliged to follow suit. In fact, overall, very few of them do.  As it happens, Bioware does account for death of minor NPCs in some quests. (Defending Redcliffe, Otto the blind templar), but in neither instance are there any long-term repercussions. It is not necessary or practical for them to do the same for the bulk of major story quests.

My point when saying other games do it wasn't to say Bioware should do it, but that the technology to account for NPC deaths exists.

And if they use it in those areas, why not use it throughout the game? If they already have it, they should use it in instances where the player is responsible for the lives of other people.

 

In both Origins and DA2, and indeed, in any game that allows players to affect the plot to any degree, there are certain boxes that have to be ticked. You don't have to agree with every single one, but it's an issue that you're going to have to deal with, because game developers aren't slaves to your immersion. If you don't like it, then find a less plot-driven game with the mechanics in place to allow for that sort of thing. But I dare say you'll still find similar instances to complain about, even then.

Ah, I didn't realize you had the authority to boot me out of my enjoyment of the DA series.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 décembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You can toss around the word butthurt all you want and say that's how I am, but that makes you look somewhat immature.

I didn't call you butthurt, and attacking my word choice won't disprove my point. No word is inherently more or less "mature" than any other word. 

Gameplay and the story should not be segregated. Gameplay should reflect upon the lore.

Why? And give me a better reason than your immersion.

My point when saying other games do it wasn't to say Bioware should do it, but that the technology to account for NPC deaths exists.

Obviously it was, since your ultimate point is that Bioware should do it.

And if they use it in those areas, why not use it throughout the game? If they already have it, they should use it in instances where the player is responsible for the lives of other people.

1. It's not always possible.

2. It's not always practical. It is expensive and time consuming to draft up alternate scenarios for every single outcome.

3. A lot of players would not like it. If a random beheading animation meant you lost out on the option of recruiting Zevran, or that Bann Teagan was no longer present in Origins, people would be pissed. People want more choice, not less.

4. It's frequently pointless. If a minor NPC (like the other senior enchanters in the CIrcle Tower) adds nothing of substance to the game, then there's no good reason to keep them alive.

Ah, I didn't realize you had the authority to boot me out of my enjoyment of the DA series.

Dude, I think you do a pretty good job of doing that all by yourself.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

I didn't call you butthurt, and attacking my word choice won't disprove my point. No word is inherently more or less "mature" than any other word. 

No, but the usage of certain words makes something more or less "mature".

And it sure seemed like I was being called butthurt. But alas, I do have a tendency to jump the gun sometimes.

Why? And give me a better reason than your immersion.

Okay, the immersion of everyone.

But to give more of a reason, while I'm certainly not equipped to argue this topic, I'll try to give a reason for it.

First off, why should gameplay and the story be segregated? And don't give me "So you can have Zevran", because I'm going to try to counter that point down below.

And suppose the lore said that men can only naturally jump 6 feet in the air. But then the gameplay has someone jumping 30 feet in the air.

This is an issue of gameplay-story segregation where it shouldn't be.

On a similar note, we're often told that the Alphas and Emissaries in the Darkspawn hordes command the grunt Darkspawn. Yet there is never an instance in the DA games of the Darkspawn Alphas telling the Darkspawn grunts what to really do. No semblance of military tactics -- whether rudimentary or basic -- within the game.

Well, for the most part. At least in DAO there was one time where the Darkspawn used an oil trap and set it ablaze. But this should be something that's present anytime an Alpha is there with lesser Darkspawn, like when the Centaurs in God of War III commanded undead legionnaires to pile on top of Kratos. There were only 3 centaurs in the game and at least 2 -- as I can't recall if one even had Undead Legionnaires present -- demonstrated tactics against Kratos.

Another instance of gameplay-story segregation where it shouldn't be.

Perhaps G-S segregation is inevitable, but it should be minimized to only appear in as few instances as possible.

Obviously it was, since your ultimate point is that Bioware should do it.

 
No. My point was that I would like to see them do it, but ultimately it's up to them. If they read it and implement it, hey that's good. If they don't, I'm not going to create 20 threads saying "Bioware do this or you don't get my money!".

If they don't do it, I'll still be sad that NPCs die for no valid reason, but I won't say that Bioware should definitely do it. I am giving a suggestion. If they take that suggestion and end up using it, that is their decision.

2. It's not always practical. It is expensive and time consuming to draft up alternate scenarios for every single outcome.

It took me two minutes to come up with a plausible scenario for two bad instances. Thinking about a scenario wouldnt' take much time, especially if you use other elements within the game to help explain it.

Putting them into gaming code, however, might be another issue entirely. That would probably take a great deal more time to implement, especially with testing and whatnot to make sure it isn't buggy.

3. A lot of players would not like it. If a random beheading animation meant you lost out on the option of recruiting Zevran, or that Bann Teagan was no longer present in Origins, people would be pissed. People want more choice, not less.

Theoretically, couldn't a code be instituted that would prevent death animations for triggering on those characters?

4. It's frequently pointless. If a minor NPC (like the other senior enchanters in the CIrcle Tower) adds nothing of substance to the game, then there's no good reason to keep them alive.

how about for the fact that you rescue hundreds of mages from the failed rebellion of Kinloch Hold, only to come out of it to see 7 total mages (and 6 Templars)? Three of whom can be killed later on.

It adds to the sense of "Hey, I actually did what the game says I did!"

Of course, even then the mages at the top wouldn't have had to survive for a person to feel like they accomplished saving the mages. Bioware could've just as easily put more copypasta mage models in the tower floors.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 décembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[SkittlesKat96]

The red lyrium is just really, really powerful...and magic is complex and has many secrets.

I think that is really all the explanation there is, I don't get why Meredith can't just create a really big powerful fireball that just instant kills everyone though (I mean she can fly and keep massive statues in animation) but a lot of fiction doesn't make complete sense

Also she kind of got weakened by Hawke and everyone else so she drew on the power of the red lyrium and I guess it was too much for her

Some people dislike the red lyrium sword but I kind of liked it...I mean the final boss of DA 2 would have to be extremely powerful somehow, the red lyrium sword was a way of making Meredith comparable in strength to an Archdemon (I personally believe that Meredith with the red lyrium sword could possibly solo/do equally as well against an Archdemon in a fight)

I think its more just the whole plot in general that needed fixing...the lyrium idol needed more connection and detail put into it plot wise and Meredith needed more development

Also I think something really weird is up with what happened to Meredith

Maybe its just the rushedness of DA 2 and Bioware's not-so-great-for a Bioware game storytelling but I feel there is more to Meredith's death...maybe her last efforts of drawing power from the red lyrium wasn't completely in vain? I have a feeling she triggered something or did something as she died. I just have a gut feeling, I could definitely be wrong.

[philippe willaume]

Plaintiff wrote...

Weltenschlange wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Man, I hate [...] Orsino's nonsensical need to be another boss fight like Bioware wanted instead of allowing the player to forgive him or fight him if they so choosed.

Why they'll defend that as a good idea I won't ever know.

From your mouth to Andraste's ear.

What I found most baffling about this fight is the fact that you also have to do it when you struggle FOR the mages.

("Dude we are winning! Why did you just turn yourself into a corpse monster?!? Oh the humanity!!!")

Because you aren't winning. The cutscene clearly shows that most of the mages you defended are dead.

Well did kind of spank all comers rotten.
Not to mentioning that you openly sided with mage and regardless of the odds or how the battle is going. You are the champion and your little team had done2 dragons, an artichoke and series of super demons super ugly.


So turning into the harvester in front of that lot is obviously a brilliant idea.
It is as if Orsino is saying
I have been at odds with templar and Chantry all my life but really deep down I have the spine of a marshmallow and really my sole purpose in the story is to make your house-maid looks like Shaft.
And by the way you just have been lucky in the last 2 acts and you have no chance to mince me in my new form mmmmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
 
If you had stayed neutral, or if after you went and did Meredith uglier, you had to deal with the harvester because Orsino though all was lost. it would kind of have made sense.
 
phil

[Kaiser Shepard]

You're not supposed to understand the ending; no one does.

Some days I even doubt whether the writers themselves do.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

The only explanation I can think of for Meredith's super stunts is that she's a Templar. A Knight Commander at that. Templars have certain training and skills that they were akin to what the mages inherently have. I'm not sure whether that denotes them as having some inbred talent for magic (I think the Warden made that comparison when discussing templars with Alistair) as well since I've not come across any info on the reqs for templar recruitement. How and what is a potential recruit gauged on? Alistair's mother is a Grey Warden mage (Elf) so he might have some of this talent lingering in his blood so he's trained as a templar, not a Chantry brother. And since he passed some training to the Warden, she/he pssibly have some as well. Who can really thoroughly trace their bloodlines anyway? 

Back to Meredith, I assumed the possibility that the higher the rank, there might possibly be more indepth training  conducted which would make the older Templars more skilled/powerful than those lesser in rank. The red lyrium enhanced her abilties to the extreme. To add to the mix is her paranoid madness. A mad person is ten times stronger than a sane person because she/he would exert all strength, will and belief to the action exerted.

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 19 décembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Meredith had super saiyan powers because the developers thought it looked awesome. I doubt there is a good explanation, nor do they probably feel any obligation to give one. I just look at it as a game mechanic, similar to the ninja rogues and the teleporting mages.

"From what I've seen of Kirkwall, nothing surprises me anymore." -Hawke

[Fast Jimmy]

My only two cents of sanity here may be that Templars spend their lifetime consuming small quantities of blue lyrium to develop their mage-nullifying powers. Maybe when red lyrium fuses with blue lyrium in the blood, it not only causes madness but unleashes a boss fight.