47 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

If I had to guess, I'd agree with Arthur. The developer discussion about how to do the big boss battle probably had more elements of what would be/look cool and make for a tough fight than what would be "realistic" or a natural progression from the gameplay to that point.

I agree with many other posters on the various threads that it would have been a more satisfying final decision if both sides had been sane and persuasive in their positions. Making Orsino insane and Meredith possessed just made it feel like choosing either side was pointless. I think it would have been more interesting and more respectful of the player's game choices if you faced *either* Meredith *or* Orsino depending on which side you chose to defend.

[TEWR]

My only two cents of sanity here may be that Templars spend their lifetime consuming small quantities of blue lyrium to develop their mage-nullifying powers. Maybe when red lyrium fuses with blue lyrium in the blood, it not only causes madness but unleashes a boss fight.

"Larry no, don't mix the two lyriums together!"

"Wait... don't do what?"

*KABLAMO!!!*

"Now you've done it Larry!"

Round 1.... FIGHT!!

[LobselVith8]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

You're not supposed to understand the ending; no one does.

Some days I even doubt whether the writers themselves do.

I feel the same way.

[Kasces]

I think if the devs were to say anything about Meredith's superpowers, it's that Varric started embellishing. Still choosing "cool"" gameplay over story but that's what I would use an excuse anyway.

[VanishedFaces]

It's my understanding that dwarves aren't completely immune to lyrium, anyways, but they just have a much higher tolerance for it: remember the lyrium-tainted merchant in Orzammar ("have you seen my sandwich?") [edit: oh haha i see the op mentioned this.] There's also Sandal who's said to be lyrium-addled, and he's certainly got extraordinary talents as well as being, uh, not all there. There's a lot about the red lyrium, though, that's left unexplained, and I'd like to know more for sure.

As for Orsino, well...yeah

Modifié par Brokenmellcifer, 19 décembre 2011 - 10:08 .

[TobiTobsen]

You got an ending? I only got a cliffhanger.

[jbrand2002uk]

there is an explination of sorts here on the wiki under primeval lyrium http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Lyrium

[GavrielKay]

While I'm not against having a human(oid) antagonist as the final villian(s) it does lead to some problems for the developers.

It's one thing to have an archdemon/dragon/old god as your final boss. No one will complain that it has fantastical abilities and requires a group of the nation's most seasoned fighters to defeat it.

How to handle a "human" villian? They took a lore-abiding approach with Orsino, though story-wise it was a stretch if you were opposing the RoA. But what to do with Meredith? Even as a Knight Commander, her fighting skills alone would have been a hard sell as a "final boss" fight.

The lyrium idol gave them something to hang a final battle on... unfortunately, it also made it impossible for me to support the RoA because my Hawkes all felt that it was supporting a mad-woman in her anti-mage crusade more than it was protecting anyone from dangerous mages.

In the end, it is easier to guide every player towards wanting to defeat the wildly powerful world destroying monster than a human who is crazy and happens to have a magical sword.

For all that I give Bioware credit for not just making a copy of DAO; I found that I much preferred defeating an archdemon over watching Meredith burn up from lyrium overdose.

The end of DA2 just isn't very satisfying. We killed a defeatist First Enchanter and a paranoid Knight Commander. All we got for our trouble was a war that we couldn't stop and a forced disappearing into the sunset.

Some champion.

[TEWR]

@GavrielKay: I happen to think that the lyrium idol concept could've actually added to the idea of the Right of Annulment's moral complexity, if it was done properly.

It really should've been all about casting a level of doubt on when the idol affected her and how much it affected her.

But Bioware botched it up. So meh.

EDIT: Though a non-lyrium idol Meredith would've also worked wonders. But to be honest, one of the few things I actually like about the final battle are the Golems she made. That's probably the only thing I like about it actually. Well, and the other companions helping out.

So I'd miss the Golems if they were missing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 décembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

I think without the sword Meredith was already mad enough. Talk to her about her sister. It was hard to sympathize with her after that.

[sylvanaerie]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I think without the sword Meredith was already mad enough. Talk to her about her sister. It was hard to sympathize with her after that.

I've never gotten that option...when/how can you talk with her about her sister?

[AngryFrozenWater]

You can talk to her about that in her office during the beginning of "Best Served Cold" when you side with the templars at the start of Act 3 after "On The Lose".

Edited for clarity.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 décembre 2011 - 10:17 .

[sylvanaerie]

oh thats why. I've always either chosen to support neither of them or sided mages. I'll have to give that a shot. She's so bat**** crazy it just seems stupid to choose her over Orsino at that point.

[AngryFrozenWater]

sylvanaerie wrote...

oh thats why. I've always either chosen to support neither of them or sided mages. I'll have to give that a shot. She's so bat**** crazy it just seems stupid to choose her over Orsino at that point.

This is the situation: Her sister gets possessed by a demon and kills all her family members and about 70 people in the village. Only Meredith survives. Of course that is a horrible situation and hating her sister because of that isn't odd. On the other hand there is no empathy there. None. She does not feel that the demon has caused this. She feels that her sister is guilty because she is a mage. That demons can possess non-mages as well escapes her. It's not only the logic behind it, but the way she talks about it feels very alien.

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@GavrielKay: I happen to think that the lyrium idol concept could've actually added to the idea of the Right of Annulment's moral complexity, if it was done properly.

It really should've been all about casting a level of doubt on when the idol affected her and how much it affected her.

But Bioware botched it up. So meh.

EDIT: Though a non-lyrium idol Meredith would've also worked wonders. But to be honest, one of the few things I actually like about the final battle are the Golems she made. That's probably the only thing I like about it actually. Well, and the other companions helping out.

So I'd miss the Golems if they were missing.

The trouble here is that Meredith creating golems is your head canon. 

For the rest of us, a bunch of Tevinter statues are suddenly animated with no good explanation.  The devs ended up inventing a bunch of gimmics outside of established game lore in order to make a human woman into the big boss fight.  They could have made any of those things into proper game lore with some more story telling and development, but apparently they were too worried about "setting up" for DA3 to write a coherent story for DA2.

DA2 tosses out any kind of solid story telling and "realism" for flashy moves and unexplained abilities.

[GavrielKay]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

oh thats why. I've always either chosen to support neither of them or sided mages. I'll have to give that a shot. She's so bat**** crazy it just seems stupid to choose her over Orsino at that point.

This is the situation: Her sister gets possessed by a demon and kills all her family members and about 70 people in the village. Only Meredith survives. Of course that is a horrible situation and hating her sister because of that isn't odd. On the other hand there is no empathy there. None. She does not feel that the demon has caused this. She feels that her sister is guilty because she is a mage. That demons can possess non-mages as well escapes her. It's not only the logic behind it, but the way she talks about it feels very alien.

This is one of my big gripes about Elthina and the Chantry in general.  Because they look for zealots more so than balanced people to be Templars, their available pool of people to promote to Knight Commander is already skewed...  and then somehow a woman with such extreme personal circumstance and bias gets promoted to the second highest (?) position available to a Templar. 

That Meredith is ever put in charge of mage lives is a huge black mark against Elthina (and the Chantry) in my book.

[Arthur Cousland]

When I went back to Origins to do a new DA2 import, after two DA2 playthroughs, it was refreshing to interact with Gregoir+Irving again during the magi origin and Broken Circle.

I missed, and prefer, that aspect where Gregoir and Irving view each other as colleagues, rather than enemies, and that mages who pass their harrowing can't be made tranquil.

Meredith and Orsino simply needed to be put out of their misery.

With what transpired at the end of DA2, it will be interesting to see how DA3 plays out. I can't say that I was a fan of the whole crazy mages vs crazy templars and the thin veil around Kirkwall driving everyone crazy and homicidal.

[Rawgrim]

The ending is this: If you have an oversized red glowing sword - you can fly.

[Davillo]

game is rediculous and its the worst 59.99$ + tax I ever spent.

[TEWR]

@GavrielKay: the collector's edition guide says that the statues in the final battle are Golems. Not the same type of Golems that the Dwarves use, but nevertheless Golems.

[Gervaise]

So to make the thing have more sense all they needed to do was for you to find a book (possibly even in Meredith's office) which discussed the possibility that the old Tevinter Imperium were able to create golems. Then Meredith uses the sword to activate the statues. If the book also mentioned that the original Magisters were said to have been able to do prodigious feats such as run very fast and jump high into the air but this was thought to be just a myth, there would then be a basis to what Meredith can do. It would also help explain why Bartrand only goes mad, since he would hardly likely have parted with an artifact that could allow him such amazing powers, but dwarves don't do magic so he never unlocked its potential.

With regard to Elthina's error in appointing Meredith, it is clear in Asunder that the templar order pretty much has autonomy with regard to making appointments or removing people from office. The Divine could suggest a particular course of action but the final decision rests with those directly in charge of the templars. When the Knight Commander is thought to have failed in their duties at the White Spire, it is the Lord Seeker who removes them from office, not the Divine. It is also clear from the book that if Elthina had come down on the side of the mages, the templars would have ignored this and continued as they saw fit (probably arguing she had been possessed by a blood mage).

Also with regard to Meredith's past impacting on her attitude towards mages, whilst non-mages can be possessed, it is the possessed mage that is capable of doing the most destruction. I doubt that an ordinary possessed farmworker could destroy an entire village before someone managed to take them down. Meredith feels that her family were wrong in hiding her sister from the Circle where she would have been contained safely and taught how to manage her powers. She does not believe that all mages are bad or possessed. However, what she does not acknowledge (and is not alone in this) is that if families were not fearful of never seeing their children again and mages were not afraid of being locked up or made tranquil, then there would be no need to hide them away, putting everyone at risk. I would also point out that right from Act 1, before she gets the idol, there are blood mages active in the city and actually infiltrating the templar ranks. By Act 3 there are blood mages openly controlling the streets at night with their dominated blood thralls, plus a conspiracy against her which involved blood mages from within the Circle. So even without the idol, there was sufficient reason for Meredith to take a hardline stance in the city and to demand to make a thorough search of the Circle. To put it another way, there was enough stress in her life to cause her paranoia without introducing an outside influence.

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@GavrielKay: the collector's edition guide says that the statues in the final battle are Golems. Not the same type of Golems that the Dwarves use, but nevertheless Golems.

OK.

Somehow it doens't make me feel much better that I would have had to spend even more money to have the ending make more sense.

[TEWR]

I agree that it kinda should've been revealed in the game -- perhaps in the Deep Roads with a codex update to the Golems codex gained from regular statues coming into contact with the lyrium -- but c'est la vie