36 réponses à ce sujet

[Cristelkaa]

Hi
I just finished playing trough the ideal scenario of dragon age Origin.
Leliana dead, Anders never met justice and also dead, my warden basically killed a lot of the old cast to see what happened.

Don’t get me wrong I have “nicer” saves when everyone is alive and happy but it is so much more interesting to see how a story evolves trough your choices or that is what I thought.
So Leliana is not in leigh with the maker but with some demon because she is un-killable I picked her bones clean (and fed her meet to the mabari Just kidding), and she was still standing there! Why would anybody in their right mind shoot their own game in the foot like that?

And Anders had somehow survived without justice and found him and also merged with him claiming he met him in Amaranthine, I am amazed that someone at Bioware approved this and thought no one would notice or object. I must say to quote Sten “The choices was a lie”.
 
I am so disappointed that I do not think I can express it properly, but one thing is for sure if our choices are not important do not try and make us think they are! That is so disrespectful, I am not a child I have played games all my life and I usually love Bioware games but if this is the standard now after EA bought in to it I will not! And that would be a shame since Bioware are or were exceptional for a none Japanese game maker.

[Bayz]

Cristelkaa wrote...

Hi
I just finished playing trough the ideal scenario of dragon age Origin.
Leliana dead, Anders never met justice and also dead, my warden basically killed a lot of the old cast to see what happened.

Don’t get me wrong I have “nicer” saves when everyone is alive and happy but it is so much more interesting to see how a story evolves trough your choices or that is what I thought.

Is it not? You fell for the same thing I did.

Cristelkaa wrote...
So Leliana is not in leigh with the maker but with some demon because she is un-killable I picked her bones clean (and fed her meet to the mabari Just kidding), and she was still standing there! Why would anybody in their right mind shoot their own game in the foot like that?

That's a question I've ween asking myself for...almost a year now? I mean it was the choice-reaction the bit that made DA standing out of the crowd or so I believe, without them is yet another fantasy game..with way more limited race\\class choices.

Cristelkaa wrote...
And Anders had somehow surv
ived without justice and found him and also merged with him claiming he met him in Amaranthine, I am amazed that someone at Bioware approved this and thought no one would notice or object. I must say to quote Sten “The choices were a lie”.

Sorry, Herr Göderintz the Grammar Naz...teacher came routing from me on that, I am honestly not like that often, but I agree with the statement.

Cristelkaa wrote...
I am so disappointed that I do not think I can express it properly, but one thing is for sure if our choices are not important do not try and make us think they are! That is so disrespectful, I am not a child I have played games all my life and I usually love Bioware games but if this is the standard now after EA bought in to it I will not! And that would be a shame since Bioware are or were exceptional for a none Japanese game maker.

For me the line will be the reviews of DA3. Unlike DA2 I will wait a year with DA3 as I did with DAO, see how things flow and what my friends say of it, then decide if buy it or not. I will emphatise the Savegame Import bit because, honestly it is the only feature that made me buy DAO in the first place.

[WhiteKnyght]

Devs have already said they have a reason for Leliana still being alive. As for Anders, the devs have stated that the epilogue cards are rumor and hearsay, not stated fact. It's very possible that Anders could have survived but been believed dead(Warden could have lied to try to stop the Templars), and could have met Justice after the Mother was slain.

Devs have also stated that the real impact of the choices will be seen in Dragon Age III.

David Gaider has also stated that the novels/comics establish their own canon and do exist in the player's canon, just that it happens differently.

[Bayz]

Real impact of the choices that have not been retconned by that time...

That's for sure I mean I always rather considered my own canon the real one at least when my campaigns are to be there. My canon is the real for my universe, Thedas-8 in a marvel nomenclature

An if they don't listen *puts helmet and takes axe*...to the hell with them (with austrian accent)

[jbrand2002uk]

I think BW made a rod for their own back by giving DAO so many permutations that it becomes impossible to write further games that allow for all the possible choices of people who played the previous games, books are so much easier theirs 1 version of the story and you like it or lump it.

All in its a case of too many choices spoiled the broth

[andraip]

And why does no one complain about Flemeth beeing alive? Right, because they gave an explanation in DA2 and it was also hinted in DAO. Just because it wasn't hinted in DAO or explained in DA2 it does mean that the character is confirmed dead, also it does not mean that it has to be a retcon.

Leliana doesn't know Hawke very well, it would be odd if she started their meeting with "Actually that son of b**** of a Warden defiled the Urn of Sacred Ashes and nearly killed me in the process".

Anders did change with Justice and diesn't talk much about his past, he is more concerned withthe Plight of the Magi. He never said that he traveled with the Warden Commander and met Justice with him.

Also the Warden/Hawke are mere mortals and not God, they cannot change the world drastically, no one can.

[Bayz]

Also so we can kill her again. Challenge and stuff.

That would have been hilarious, kinda like her introduction to Origins with "I had a visioooon"

I know, Bioware said they were instrumental when...they actually just picked sides on conflicts that were already there when they stepped in.

[Hambacon]

you have to admit all the choices in the original were fun and make you think and debate things. The ending of the first game was rather satisfying. Think of what we would have missed out if we didn't have those choices at the time? I know not having those choices show up in DAO2 was heartbreaking, but...i think it was worth it

[Bayz]

Well some of them kinda showed off...I mean Alistair being a drunktard and stuff like that.

Player's choices should be reflected in small nods, that's why I don't think Bioware should have allowed the player do stuff that could potentially be that significant like, let's say, Morrigan's kiddo.

[thats1evildude]

Clearly you made the wrong choices. DA2 corrected your mistakes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 décembre 2011 - 12:15 .

[Bayz]

That explains, it probably means that the marketing that sold that you could build your own continuity on the universe Dragon Age was the same that sold it as dark fantasy am I right?

[Realmzmaster]

The problem is that everybody believed the choices they made in DAO would be canon. On top of that they want to throw in the stuff from books and upcoming comics. The point is as David Gaider said those are separate mediums, The stuff from the books does not have any bearing on the game outside of being from the fertile mind of David Gaider.

You can read the books without having played the game and vice versa. The problem is that many gamers do both and blur the line between the two and see each as a continuation of the other and they are not.

Bioware also stated that not all of the choices would make it to DA2. Just like if you wanted to take your warden into Awakenings the canon is changed to did the dark ritual and lived if your warden did the US in Origins. That was a request made by the fans and honored by Bioware. Nowhere was it stated that every possible combination would be considered canon.

[Bayz]

Don't know about the books and comics, don't follow them actually.

I don't think they should have made choices as "canon" at all. Kinda like TES continuity (I know its a joke most of the time) but is what I expected, leaving most of the things at least vague enough to accomodate player's choices...

Is how I see it, obviously not how Bioware sees it

[thats1evildude]

Cristelkaa wrote...

I must say to quote Sten “The choices was a lie”.

Sten said the cake was a lie. 

Anyways, all your choices still happened, but events occured outside of the player's influence that negated those choices. (ie. the Maker brought Leliana back from the dead)

Only one or two decisions made in DAO were affected this way. It's really not that big of a deal.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 décembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Apathy1989]

That was one thing that annoyed me - everyone talking about the warden as if he was alive. My warden didn't do the dark ritual, so had a heroic end. Thats another turn of events that isn't "cannon" so is ignored.

You can see also in DA2 they are learning from their mistakes and giving the player less opportunity to divert the story away from the cannon path. Almost all characters in DA2 were expendable, bar Isabela, Aveline and Varric who always survive. Everyone else will be written out of future DA, except maybe a brief cameo like Zevran got.

Dragon Age is becoming a story driven Action RPG, rather than a hardcore, traditional RPG. Whether you think this is a good thing or not is up to you. Personally I prefer the new style, although it is still annoying to change.

[Bayz]

Isabela not always...but be sure we are not seeing the last of Anders and co possibly even though I killed him...

Edited: I stand corrected, I didn't know that she scaped the Arishok if you gave her to the Qunari. so yes it isn't far fetched that if we had already seen her in two games, she would appear at least a cameo or even a companion in future installments.

Modifié par Bayz, 18 décembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

Apathy1989 wrote...

That was one thing that annoyed me - everyone talking about the warden as if he was alive. My warden didn't do the dark ritual, so had a heroic end. Thats another turn of events that isn't "cannon" so is ignored.

You can see also in DA2 they are learning from their mistakes and giving the player less opportunity to divert the story away from the cannon path. Almost all characters in DA2 were expendable, bar Isabela, Aveline and Varric who always survive. Everyone else will be written out of future DA, except maybe a brief cameo like Zevran got.

Dragon Age is becoming a story driven Action RPG, rather than a hardcore, traditional RPG. Whether you think this is a good thing or not is up to you. Personally I prefer the new style, although it is still annoying to change.

DAO and DA2 were never hardcore traditional cRPGs, not if you are defining hardcore traditional the way I do. I agree whether that is good or bad is left to individual opinion.

[WhiteKnyght]

Apathy1989 wrote...

That was one thing that annoyed me - everyone talking about the warden as if he was alive. My warden didn't do the dark ritual, so had a heroic end. Thats another turn of events that isn't "cannon" so is ignored.

That's an untrue statement. You can check the codex for the Hero of Ferelden right after Act 1 starts and see for yourself.

Not to mention if the Warden you sacked was Dalish, Merril will mention it.

As for the other origins, none of them have any strong ties to Kirkwall characters and generally aren't mentioned about being alive.

Anything different is a glitch in the game, not a retcon.

[Apathy1989]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

That was one thing that annoyed me - everyone talking about the warden as if he was alive. My warden didn't do the dark ritual, so had a heroic end. Thats another turn of events that isn't "cannon" so is ignored.

That's an untrue statement. You can check the codex for the Hero of Ferelden right after Act 1 starts and see for yourself.

Not to mention if the Warden you sacked was Dalish, Merril will mention it.

As for the other origins, none of them have any strong ties to Kirkwall characters and generally aren't mentioned about being alive.

Anything different is a glitch in the game, not a retcon.

I was more refering to how leliana at the end refers to the Warden as to have "disappeared". But yes you are correct, there are alot of references to the warden being dead elsewhere.

[esper]

Apathy1989 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

That was one thing that annoyed me - everyone talking about the warden as if he was alive. My warden didn't do the dark ritual, so had a heroic end. Thats another turn of events that isn't "cannon" so is ignored.

That's an untrue statement. You can check the codex for the Hero of Ferelden right after Act 1 starts and see for yourself.

Not to mention if the Warden you sacked was Dalish, Merril will mention it.

As for the other origins, none of them have any strong ties to Kirkwall characters and generally aren't mentioned about being alive.

Anything different is a glitch in the game, not a retcon.

I was more refering to how leliana at the end refers to the Warden as to have "disappeared". But yes you are correct, there are alot of references to the warden being dead elsewhere.

In case of your wardens dead in the final ritual it is more likely that Leliana refers to the Orlesian warden who then did awakening.

[TEWR]

Devs have also stated that the real impact of the choices will be seen in Dragon Age III.

real impact of what choice? DAII barely allowed for any choices to have consequence. Most ended up leading to the same conclusion when DAII could've had different choices lead to different conclusions within DAII itself.

It didn't have to world-changing choices. Just DAII story-changing choices.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Our DA2 choices should, according to an official podcast, "shape the world" and the DA:O import should have impact on that world. The fact is that nothing actually changes the world in any significant way. You still visit the same location, fight the same bosses and dialog seems to be designed to establish that. Because choices have no impact all the responses become rationalizations and the illusion of choice gets the boot. All we see are cosmetic changes to dialogue lines, a cameo here and there and mail to the Hawke Estate. BW clearly didn't want or wasn't able to keep their public promise.

Add to that the things the OP has mentioned and I end up playing a game with a very disappointing story. I don't believe that BW wasn't able to write a good story, because most of their titles are top notch in that regard. So to me the topic title couldn't be more true.

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Devs have already said they have a reason for Leliana still being alive. As for Anders, the devs have stated that the epilogue cards are rumor and hearsay, not stated fact.

In other words, the writers rectonned the decisions to make those specific player choices meaningless, since it makes no sense that Leliana could come back from the dead when she isn't an abomination of legend, and Anders never met Justice if he was never recruited and if Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

It's very possible that Anders could have survived but been believed dead (Warden could have lied to try to stop the Templars), and could have met Justice after the Mother was slain.

Not if Justice was killed by The Warden if he sided with the Architect, and wasn't able to persuade Justice to agree to the alliance.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Devs have also stated that the real impact of the choices will be seen in Dragon Age III.

The developers also said choices within Dragon Age II would be seen within Dragon Age II. The developers also said they heard our complaints about the lack of significant choice within the narrative and would address that (specifically, Mike Laidlaw in the "Thank You" thread), and we got two story DLCs following that where choices didn't matter once again.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

David Gaider has also stated that the novels/comics establish their own canon and do exist in the player's canon, just that it happens differently.

I don't have a problem with the novels having their own canon, personally.

[Wulfram]

I'd rather have choice in this game and potentially have it retconned in a future game, than be stuck on a railroad the whole time.

[TEWR]

Not if Justice was killed by The Warden if he sided with the Architect, and wasn't able to persuade Justice to agree to the alliance.

Justice did say however that he wasn't sure if a "death" in the mortal realm would even be enough for him to go back to the Fade, especially since the Baroness' spell sundered him from it entirely.

For other spirits and demons, they generally aren't sundered from the Veil. So upon their "death", they just go right on back.