366 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

First, there are a few caveats. BW can completely invalidate it by not providing scenarios to engage the player in ways I mention, or they can allow paragon to always equal win in best way. This will become more evident as I explain.


Renegades are used to making the hard decisions while paragons have had their cake and ate it. They save everyone and magically redeem scalawags. They likely feel deific due to the history of their victories and acclaim. Realistically that should change for ME3.


Imagine if 10 quarian ships are trapped behind enemy lines the paragon action would say we must rescue them. Renegade would be just like Adama did in BSG, he left the colonial ships behind rather than potentially lose all to the cylons. If it comes without cost then it is highly unbelievable. Would a paragon sacrifice Garrus to save those ten ships? Are they still paragon if they don't attempt a rescue? That I wonder. I doubt it though.


Renegades are all about getting the job done no matter cost. They will be willing to use forces as a decoy with attendant loses to win a major objective. Again leader in history and media have done so to great effect. Would paragons do such a thing? They could but it would be out of character.


Renegades should be more decisive which could also backfire if they back a disastrous plan lackign all possible intel to be gathered. Paragons could delay too long and have little operational gain from when they do deploy forces.


Loses should be more cripling to the psyche of a paragon, because they have been so successful and lost little over their military career. Yes there are the backgrounds, but the scenarios put Shepard in no position to do anything about it. Nothing Shepard has led has met failure and the worst thing a paragon went through was the grounding of the Normany IMO. This was soon rectified and made irrelevant. Imagine if it cost Shepard for disobeying orders going against the citadel and alliance. After all military is about discipline and making examples to make sure it is maintained. However, everything turns out AOK more so for paragons.



I have played and enjoyed both sides of the coin and shall continue to do so. I truly hope there is less bias in paragon =  huge win, but even if it is not so I won't lose any sleep over it.

[DRACO1130]

InvincibleHero wrote...

First, there are a few caveats. BW can completely invalidate it by not providing scenarios to engage the player in ways I mention, or they can allow paragon to always equal win in best way. This will become more evident as I explain.


Renegades are used to making the hard decisions while paragons have had their cake and ate it. They save everyone and magically redeem scalawags. They likely feel deific due to the history of their victories and acclaim. Realistically that should change for ME3.


Imagine if 10 quarian ships are trapped behind enemy lines the paragon action would say we must rescue them. Renegade would be just like Adama did in BSG, he left the colonial ships behind rather than potentially lose all to the cylons. If it comes without cost then it is highly unbelievable. Would a paragon sacrifice Garrus to save those ten ships? Are they still paragon if they don't attempt a rescue? That I wonder. I doubt it though.


Renegades are all about getting the job done no matter cost. They will be willing to use forces as a decoy with attendant loses to win a major objective. Again leader in history and media have done so to great effect. Would paragons do such a thing? They could but it would be out of character.


Renegades should be more decisive which could also backfire if they back a disastrous plan lackign all possible intel to be gathered. Paragons could delay too long and have little operational gain from when they do deploy forces.


Loses should be more cripling to the psyche of a paragon, because they have been so successful and lost little over their military career. Yes there are the backgrounds, but the scenarios put Shepard in no position to do anything about it. Nothing Shepard has led has met failure and the worst thing a paragon went through was the grounding of the Normany IMO. This was soon rectified and made irrelevant. Imagine if it cost Shepard for disobeying orders going against the citadel and alliance. After all military is about discipline and making examples to make sure it is maintained. However, everything turns out AOK more so for paragons.



I have played and enjoyed both sides of the coin and shall continue to do so. I truly hope there is less bias in paragon =  huge win, but even if it is not so I won't lose any sleep over it.

Well said.

[Dariustwinblade]

No! It shouldn't! Screw the Renagades.

They deserve to be punished ALWAYS.

*runs away*

[DiebytheSword]

Renegade choices, while results orientated, are often a bit heavy handed, and could result in bruised morale for the side that's making those hard decisions. Without empathy, there is no civilization, only a loose confederacy of convenience. Ideally, the approach is balanced, with choices affecting morale and combat readiness.

[InvincibleHero]

Arcian wrote...

This thread will inevitably lead to a Cerberus/Renegade circlejerking circus.

I hope you are wrong about that. Why did you have to mention that c word?

[Double_02]

Hey man! As my primary/canon paragon Shep, I've suffered a great many losses. I lost Kaidan! I also lost this one guy and this other guy, oh and this other guy! Wait, I lost Ms. Chambers! You meany! Don't tell me I don't know about loss..I've made sacrifices too..

Seriously though, I agree with you. Playing down the path of a paragon should also have heavy prices to pay indeed.

I disagree with renegades actions leading to a more successful war effort though.

Modifié par Double_02, 18 décembre 2011 - 04:29 .

[Wulfram]

Nothing about being "Paragon" says that they don't understand military strategy, or making sacrifices for the greater good. After all, they sacrifice Alliance soldiers to save the Destiny Ascension.

I'll also say that military forces to an extent rely on trust and mutual obligation. People fight better if they know that they won't just be abandoned, that their comrades will risk themselves to retrieve them.

This applies even more so when you're handling a multi-species alliance. If they think you're not prepared to spend human lives to save aliens, then why would they be prepared to spend their lives to save yours?

Renegades have their cake and eat it too. They get to be jerks to everyone, treat bosses and subordinates with utter contempt and kill anyone who annoys them, without any real consequences.

My Colonist/Sole Survivor isn't lacking in tragedy to toughen her up.

[John Renegade]

Wulfram wrote...

Nothing about being "Paragon" says that they don't understand military strategy, or making sacrifices for the greater good. After all, they sacrifice Alliance soldiers to save the Destiny Ascension.

I'll also say that military forces to an extent rely on trust and mutual obligation. People fight better if they know that they won't just be abandoned, that their comrades will risk themselves to retrieve them.

This applies even more so when you're handling a multi-species alliance. If they think you're not prepared to spend human lives to save aliens, then why would they be prepared to spend their lives to save yours?

Renegades have their cake and eat it too. They get to be jerks to everyone, treat bosses and subordinates with utter contempt and kill anyone who annoys them, without any real consequences.

My Colonist/Sole Survivor isn't lacking in tragedy to toughen her up.

Yeah, but Renegades should at least get some advantage - like new technology. According to you renegade=jerk. According to me renegade=realistic patriot who understands that the end justify the means. Now tell me what are people like me supposed to do? I'm not a jerk and every "hard" decision I make turns against me.

This is what many people have problem with. I don't care about being a stupid jerk, I want to make meaningful decisions. I sacrifice people percisely because it is supposed to, at least in some cases, give me an advantage in the future. Now, where is that advantage?

Also, the Destiny Ascension decision is paragon, because you risk the galaxy to save ten thousand people. Call that strategic.

[Someone With Mass]

Arcian wrote...

This thread will inevitably lead to a Cerberus/Renegade circlejerking circus.

Indeed.

Even if Renegade =/= Cerberus fanatic.

[crimzontearz]

yeah....doubful

[Nightwriter]

Invincible Hero wrote...

Renegades are used to making the hard decisions

It doesn't seem like it's terribly hard for all of them. Many of them seem to consider making hard decisions as a badge of pride.

[Ravensword]

Arcian wrote...

This thread will inevitably lead to a Cerberus/Renegade circlejerking circus.

That's the new thing for the BSN these days.

[Wulfram]

Some choices, the Renegade option should pay off, yeah.

As for the DA, the military case for ignoring all those Geth is rather debatable. In any case, the choice to sacrifice the DA for practical military reasons is neutral, not renegade.

[John Renegade]

Wulfram wrote...

In any case, the choice to sacrifice the DA for practical military reasons is neutral, not renegade.

We can agree on that.

[LegionMan]

 Forget all you Paragons and Renegades.

Paragade/Renegon is the One True Path *TM

[Guanxi]

It depends how you determine success. Success for renegades might mean pretty much sacrificing every other race to get the best outcome for humanity but this would not be a measure of success for paragons at all.

I imagine in paragon games humanity makes great sacrifices which in turn ultimately results in a smaller role for humanity on the galactic stage but the burden and casualties are shared amongst all races which will ultimately result in more survivors. That is a better victory to paragons.

[InvincibleHero]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Renegade choices, while results orientated, are often a bit heavy handed, and could result in bruised morale for the side that's making those hard decisions. Without empathy, there is no civilization, only a loose confederacy of convenience. Ideally, the approach is balanced, with choices affecting morale and combat readiness.

Well it would take a leader to convince them of the necessity of sacrifice. I doubt people would fight less optimally if their lives and their entire civilization depended on it.

Some of the actions don't make sense as renegade they are just plain evil/mean spirited and exaggerated fro comedic effect. I never punch the reporter that is stupid for one example.

[John Renegade]

LegionMan wrote...

 Forget all you Paragons and Renegades.

Paragade/Renegon is the One True Path *TM

When I say paragon I mean something like paragon:renegade ratio being about 3:1 and with renegade being 1:3.
I don't get, how can someone even bear to be 95% and up on the scale of paragon or renegade, with the other being 5% or less.

Modifié par John Renegade, 18 décembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[GHNR]

I would have to disagree with the OP's assessment. Various Renegade choices in both games would actually hamper the war against the Reapers, like depriving yourself of a powerful ally by killing the Rachni Queen, killing Wrex (shame on any Renegade who did that), destroying the Genophage data and depriving the chance for the Krogan to boost there numbers, killing the Council making the rest of the species distrustful of Shepard and the Alliance, letting Morinth live, because you know....letting a serial killer roam free is a great idea, and destroying Heretic Station which would still allow pockets of Heretic Geth to regroup and create a second vrius to indoctrinate the mainstream Geth.

All in all, my Renegade is moreso a Renegon, because he isn't stupid enough to allow a chance to stop the Reapers die.

[Ryuzetsu]

Nothing about paragon IMO is easy. Sure a renegade can make sacrifices, but a lot of those times it doesn't hurt the renegade themselves. Paragons usually have to take on sacrifices that deny themselves, happiness, comfort, wealth, health. This to my mind is the harder choice, because you have to comprise yourself and strive for diplomatic solutions.

[John Renegade]

GHNR wrote...

I would have to disagree with the OP's assessment. Various Renegade choices in both games would actually hamper the war against the Reapers, like depriving yourself of a powerful ally by killing the Rachni Queen, killing Wrex (shame on any Renegade who did that), destroying the Genophage data and depriving the chance for the Krogan to boost there numbers, killing the Council making the rest of the species distrustful of Shepard and the Alliance, letting Morinth live, because you know....letting a serial killer roam free is a great idea, and destroying Heretic Station which would still allow pockets of Heretic Geth to regroup and create a second vrius to indoctrinate the mainstream Geth.

All in all, my Renegade is moreso a Renegon, because he isn't stupid enough to allow a chance to stop the Reapers die.

The point is that you see only the good outcomes. There are possible bad outcomes as well. The Rachni getting indoctrinated again, for example. Or Samara wanting to kill you once her oath is fulfilled, while Morinth won't kill you unless you let her seduce you (and if you have her you have already proven yourself immune to her powers of "persuasion").

[InvincibleHero]

Double_02 wrote...

Hey man! As my primary/canon paragon Shep, I've suffered a great many losses. I lost Kaidan! I also lost this one guy and this other guy, oh and this other guy! Wait, I lost Ms. Chambers! You meany! Don't tell me I don't know about loss..I've made sacrifices too..

Seriously though, I agree with you. Playing down the path of a paragon should also have heavy prices to pay indeed.

I disagree with renegades actions leading to a more successful war effort though.

Well given the hypothetical imagine if saving the ten cost you more ships or even as I mentioned Garrus or even the overall mission. That is real cost and can never make up for just continuing on with the mission and having a more clear cut success. Idealism can cost you plenty on the field of battle. Pragmatism is more valuable because if you plan for saving everyone you just  might save very few.

It's not mainly renegade actions just the mindset and acceptance of stark reality. However, there need to be ren/para dichotomies with clear cut distinctions not just pargon does everything and costs nothing. That is IMO unsustainable though some people really love being spoofed that all day long.

[John Renegade]

Ryuzetsu wrote...

Nothing about paragon IMO is easy. Sure a renegade can make sacrifices, but a lot of those times it doesn't hurt the renegade themselves. Paragons usually have to take on sacrifices that deny themselves, happiness, comfort, wealth, health. This to my mind is the harder choice, because you have to comprise yourself and strive for diplomatic solutions.

I don't recall any Paragon decision being the more painful one to make (loss of happiness, comfort - more like exact opposite) but I could be mistaken.

Also, Renegade is not about some subjective "good feelings". It is about doing, what is the necessary and therefore correct thing to do. Renegades generally find people, who let their "good feelings" decide who lives and who dies, too selfish.