366 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@InvicinbleHero... what council?

Renegade and Neutral players got a new council.. where are they?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 décembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[InvincibleHero]

Andorfiend wrote...

It's still up in the air, how some of those choices will play out.

Rachni may be indoctrinated.

Shiala may turn out to channel the Thorian.

Elnora was a murderess.

I cannot see how letting Balak go to save a few hostages was a 'good' decision.

Paragon isn't always right, Renegade isn't always wrong. He is usually a jerk though.

My post wasn't about that but renegade being better for prosecuting a war effort.

Yes they might but they promised aid and BW rarely disappoints paragons.

Yeah I hope that happens as I made a theory about that posted long ago. It'll probably turn out she's a hybrid that uses her new found abilities to help Shepard.

Yes and you had a few souces to find that out. I think Helena Blake and Fist were murderers too or complicit in ordering them. After all HB directed Shep to assassinate two rival gangs and Fist had to break a few eggs obviously to be so feared. Yet paras released them in good conscience. Elnora is no different.

You get to feel good and get all the accolades. The game makes you feel like dirt if you do the renegade route. The mood and music and the speech with the engineer are apt illlustration of that.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 23 décembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[Dave of Canada]

Without spoiling, the renegade decisions do lead to unfavorable outcomes. The only way to have some renegade decisions to somehow work actually mostly involves not using intimidate options from time to time. Even minor things like a side quest somehow ends up backfiring big time and it's better to not do the side quest at all.

Saying it might work out is just denial at this point.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 décembre 2011 - 05:28 .

[InvincibleHero]

Inprea wrote...

I disagree with the notion that renegades should get more benefits then paragons though I do believe there could be a difference in game play making it harder on paragons. I believe bioware did it right on Zhu's hope. You can choose to tell your squad mates that they are not to shoot civilians even if they shoot at them or you can tell them to purge the area.

Not shooting the civilians adds a higher level of difficulty to the mission which the paragon accepts in order to save the victims of the thorian. Another example is the drugged researchers that were taken hostage by the biotics. Once again if you truly want to go the paragon path you have to be careful not to shoot them while killing the biotics.

They did it again with Kal'Reegar in that you choose to give up his support in order to better protect his life if you go the paragon path.

I much prefer these instances of tougher game play to being punished by some storyline mechanic as it's up to the players ability to overcome the obstacle. Also I would say that these tougher game play elements are how paragons are punished and could be seen as giving up comfort.
Another example is of course the sick baterian on omega who if you allowed to die drops a 2000 credit item. Paragons give up this extra revenue in a game with finite income in order to save his life. He gives us nothing in return other then the knowledge that we did the ethical thing.

I always saved the colonists as innocent victims. It was easy enough to knock them out with melee gun butts. I had a harder time keeping my partners from accidentally killing them regardless of para or ren Sheps.

Meh it wasn't that difficult to aim carefully though I must say the overheat mechanism rewarded spray and pray though I never indulged in it. It was however a neat touch. 

I never noticed that Kal was much of  a help anyway. I had him sidelined everytime, but one I don't think he died. If he did I must have reloaded. I can't recall exactly since my pure renegade play was so long ago.


And killing parasini costs her entire mission of xp and credits. Turning in (betrayal) the smuggling shopkeeper for an immediate pass costs you a whole bunch more. Renegade play is much more costly if you are not careful. I cannot Recall if a paragon could turn him in since you would refuse the quest altogether as a virtuous paragon right?
2000 credits is next to nothing. It can buy you a few probes or some fuel and that's it. Someone said you get free blue points as it doesn't even cost you a medi-gel unit. Notice how the batarian didn't reward paragon Shepard though despite having 2000 credits.

[Seboist]

There could have been ways for a Renegade shep to lead an alternative war effort that's just as succesful as Parashep's like being able to recruit the Krogan easier becuase of wiping out the Rachni or providing a quicker way for the Quarians to crush the Geth (destroying heretic station, David in Overlord or Cerberus Legion) so that they could join up faster (and stronger) but unfortunately this is a series by a company that's biased towards a do-gooder idealist paladin mindset.

[Yezdigerd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Where do they sacrifice happiness more than renegades? They get to feel good letting people go instead of being a grim resolute executioner for nameless victims they get to claim they saved a race from extinction that turns out to be benevolent.

Comfort? That is from left field as there is no such difference in accomodations in the game same ship same chance to buy anything with credits. If you mean on moral stance the paragon is written more stably than renegade and is constent as in you are a good person.

Health? What? Does your paragon Shepard have less health? Oh you mean not taking battle interrupts that can help simply because you cannot abide a few red points. Yeah that affects you the whole six seconds of hugging cover. Yeah that's going to leave an emotional scar for sure.

The paragon sacrifice the satisfaction of dealing with their enemies. They let Balak go, they don't give the Council a a taste of their own medicine, they let Fist run away and so on and while you don't think the renegade ingame advantages are sufficent, they are still there. What ingame advantages does paragons get?

[LucidStrike]

For the record: I tried to let Fist go, but Wrex killed him. Still got Paragon points I think, if any.

[Yezdigerd]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
You don't seem to understand how mentally unstable people are.  Look into it. 

Amusingly enough I worked in psychiatric care, something we can all hope you don't when you grow up.

You miss the point. If Britney Spears assaults a reporter she gets a fine, community service. If the commander of Seal team six does it, he will be looking for another job.

I didn't miss it, you're just not understanding it.  In the Mass Effect universe... Britney Spears doesn't get anything for doing it.  The Commander of Seal Team 6 doesn't get anything either.  They all did it and nothing happens, that's how the ME games have been.  It's a slapstick gag/funny/anti-paparazzi event.

Exactly, renegade Shepard is a slapstick gag, glad you understand.

Spectres have a license to kill and answer only to the Council.  They could kill someone in the middle of church and it wouldn't matter.  They're not touchable.

Saren would like to differ, so did Vasir when Shepard said said she would be stripped of her spectre status for the massmurder on Illium. Spectres serve the Council, they are still accountable for their actions, just not the local law.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Seboist wrote...

There could have been ways for a Renegade shep to lead an alternative war effort that's just as succesful as Parashep's like being able to recruit the Krogan easier becuase of wiping out the Rachni or providing a quicker way for the Quarians to crush the Geth (destroying heretic station, David in Overlord or Cerberus Legion) so that they could join up faster (and stronger) but unfortunately this is a series by a company that's biased towards a do-gooder idealist paladin mindset.

I ronicly, I always - ALWAYS -  play a paladin. Yet  a Lawfull Good one, not a Lawfull Stupid one.

And even I hate Biowares direction.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

I don't support the idea, because in real life renegade person would be in prison. It gives people wrong impression what's right and wrong, if we start supporting renegade action as been better than paragon. I support more like equal war effort paths, because this is game and not real life.

In real life a paragon would be dead.

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I don't support the idea, because in real life renegade person would be in prison. It gives people wrong impression what's right and wrong, if we start supporting renegade action as been better than paragon. I support more like equal war effort paths, because this is game and not real life.

In real life a paragon would be dead.

And praised to be so, this is the christian legacy on our culture.

[Candidate 88766]

I would imagine that the full renegade path will be much harder to achieve victory with.

-Council races don't trust humanity since humanity seized control of the Council
-Krogan are weaker due to Wrex not being there to unite them and the Genophage cure being destroyed
-Quarians are weaker due to Tali's father's data sending them into disarray
-Geth are weaker due to the Heretic Geth being destroyed
-Cerberus, the faction chasing you, is made stronger due to having the Base and potentially Project Overlord

How any of those should lead to a more successful war effort is beyond me. A mixture of paragon and renegade is probably the way to go - full on renegade is foolhardy. Humanity cannot hope to survive without help, but going all-out renegade sabotages every possible faction other than Cerberus, and it seems they're in the mood to help Shepard. I'm sure succeeding in this path will be harder and therefore perhaps more satisfying, but I don't see how any of these could possibly lead to a better result.

Unless the OP means renegade actions in ME3 leading to a better result as opposed to previous renegade actions? In which case I can sorta see what you mean, but previous renegade actions will probably balance out any benefits renegade choices in ME3 will have.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 23 décembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Arcian wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In real life a paragon would be dead.

Funny how the five people widely considered the "paragon-est" AND best rulers in the history of mankind - namely the Five Good Emperors of Rome - all died of natural causes.

Who call them paragon-est, using the Mass Effect form of the word? We won't even touch the matter of who are these people and what their qualifications are for considering five romans as the best.

Given that the Roman empire even at it's best was terribly regressive by any modern standard, and trying to apply Paragonism to society that doesn't even recognize a number of the key themes of Paragonism is absurd.

In contrast, most of the more "renegade" emperors like Nero and Caligula were murdered. By their own bodyguards, no less.

What distinguishes them as Renegade, as opposed to merely mad? Unless you equate the two for some reason?

The notion that you have to be a mean bastard who cuts corners and abuses available resources in order to get a "happy ending" is childish and unrealistic. If you abuse the people you're meant to save, they will kill you.

And if you're not ruthless, you don't become the alpha-dog in an alpha-dog society. While it's certainly true that needless abuses are counterproductive, the lack of coercion (which, in general, Paragonism opposes) is not a strength by being opposite to a weakness.







Fortunately for any who looked, your spoiler is also as misleading as the rest of your post.

[Dean_the_Young]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I would imagine that the full renegade path will be much harder to achieve victory with.

-Council races don't trust humanity since humanity seized control of the Council
-Krogan are weaker due to Wrex not being there to unite them and the Genophage cure being destroyed
-Quarians are weaker due to Tali's father's data sending them into disarray
-Geth are weaker due to the Heretic Geth being destroyed
-Cerberus, the faction chasing you, is made stronger due to having the Base and potentially Project Overlord

How any of those should lead to a more successful war effort is beyond me.

I'll offer counterpoints.


-The Human/Turian arms race could have justified a 2-years arms buildup exceeding the peace-time recovery mindset of the Paragon Council. Cooperation would take effect due to the threat of mutual extinction, and while it would be far less easy there would more power behind it.

-The Krogan are a mixed bag in a lot of respects. But first, killing Wrex is NOT Renegade: Wrex can only live through persuasion or his side quest. Second, Maleon did NOT have a genophage cure, only data towards a cure.

If Wrex is alive, curing the genophage (or just revealing the cure data) could fatally undermine his position of power. The unity of the Krogan under him depends on his control of the females... and his control of the females depends on the continuation of the genophage. Make people think the genophage is about to be cured, and his grip on Krogan unity weakens.

If Wrex is dead, Wreave could unify the Krogan as a militaristic warlord in Wrex's place. The more militaristic, aggressive Krogan society is more willing to throw itself into the fight, whereas Wrex's Krogan are cautious, defending the female camps.



-The Quarian breakup can be preferable to a deadlock that keeps the Migrant Fleet united but paralyzed by internal divides. Divided migrant fleets aren't as powerful as the sum of the whole, but they are able to focus on their respective priorities... and now the Quarians can do a lot of different parts, rather than only one. Those who want no part in the war can help in one place. Those who want to fight the Geth can do so without being held back.


-The question of the costs of the Heretic Geth influence is also worth being considered. Their programming is being artificially tampered with, and the effects of their influence on the 'True' Geth is unknown. The influence could well have higher costs than getting rid of the Heretics as a whole.


-Cerberus delimmas, like all others, have to be looked at in the context of what we know at the time. There are reams and reams of those threads.

In light of what we (don't) know, however, the effects of the Collector Base are still up for grabs. Cerberus might be stronger if you kept the base... but it's strength might also enable it to better deceive and trick the Reapers in the leadup to a backstab. If the difference between the success and failure of the backstab is the Collector Base's integrity, it could easily be worth the elevated costs paid up front.

[Candidate 88766]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I would imagine that the full renegade path will be much harder to achieve victory with.

-Council races don't trust humanity since humanity seized control of the Council
-Krogan are weaker due to Wrex not being there to unite them and the Genophage cure being destroyed
-Quarians are weaker due to Tali's father's data sending them into disarray
-Geth are weaker due to the Heretic Geth being destroyed
-Cerberus, the faction chasing you, is made stronger due to having the Base and potentially Project Overlord

How any of those should lead to a more successful war effort is beyond me.

I'll offer counterpoints.


-The Human/Turian arms race could have justified a 2-years arms buildup exceeding the peace-time recovery mindset of the Paragon Council. Cooperation would take effect due to the threat of mutual extinction, and while it would be far less easy there would more power behind it.

-The Krogan are a mixed bag in a lot of respects. But first, killing Wrex is NOT Renegade: Wrex can only live through persuasion or his side quest. Second, Maleon did NOT have a genophage cure, only data towards a cure.

If Wrex is alive, curing the genophage (or just revealing the cure data) could fatally undermine his position of power. The unity of the Krogan under him depends on his control of the females... and his control of the females depends on the continuation of the genophage. Make people think the genophage is about to be cured, and his grip on Krogan unity weakens.

If Wrex is dead, Wreave could unify the Krogan as a militaristic warlord in Wrex's place. The more militaristic, aggressive Krogan society is more willing to throw itself into the fight, whereas Wrex's Krogan are cautious, defending the female camps.



-The Quarian breakup can be preferable to a deadlock that keeps the Migrant Fleet united but paralyzed by internal divides. Divided migrant fleets aren't as powerful as the sum of the whole, but they are able to focus on their respective priorities... and now the Quarians can do a lot of different parts, rather than only one. Those who want no part in the war can help in one place. Those who want to fight the Geth can do so without being held back.


-The question of the costs of the Heretic Geth influence is also worth being considered. Their programming is being artificially tampered with, and the effects of their influence on the 'True' Geth is unknown. The influence could well have higher costs than getting rid of the Heretics as a whole.


-Cerberus delimmas, like all others, have to be looked at in the context of what we know at the time. There are reams and reams of those threads.

In light of what we (don't) know, however, the effects of the Collector Base are still up for grabs. Cerberus might be stronger if you kept the base... but it's strength might also enable it to better deceive and trick the Reapers in the leadup to a backstab. If the difference between the success and failure of the backstab is the Collector Base's integrity, it could easily be worth the elevated costs paid up front.

I was glazing over the details when I made those points. You make some pretty good counter-points, but I still think that players going full renegade have made things much harder for themselves.

One thing I would add - I thought shooting Wrex was the renegade choice? I honestly can't remember - my ME1 disc broke ages ago - but thats what I thought. I may be wrong.

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 But first, killing Wrex is NOT Renegade...

If you choose that action, it gives you Renegade points, so killing him most definitely can be. You also get them if Ash does it without permission and you approve.

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 But first, killing Wrex is NOT Renegade...

If you choose that action, it gives you Renegade points, so killing him most definitely can be. You also get them if Ash does it without permission and you approve.

*sigh*

Yes, you're right. I should have written 'Wrex dying is not innately Renegade' to be more correct.

[Bad King]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

One thing I would add - I thought shooting Wrex was the renegade choice? I honestly can't remember - my ME1 disc broke ages ago - but thats what I thought. I may be wrong.

No, if you charm/intimidate him he backs down, otherwise whatever option you choose (be it a paragon, renegade or neutral line) he has to die (unless you got him his family armour earlier in the game). When he dies you do get the option to choose what the salarians do with his body (the renegade choice for example is to dump it in the swamps).

Edit: see the posts above mine. It seems then that your role in and attitude towards his death is what is considered paragon or renegade.

Modifié par Bad King, 23 décembre 2011 - 03:53 .

[didymos1120]

I'll also note that as far as the game is concerned, deliberately shooting him is the lesser Renegade action. You get way more points from the intimidation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arcian wrote...

@Dean: I respect your opinion, and I agree to some extent: a good ruler cannot maintain his rule if he's not exercising his authority. The FGE were by no means old roman hippies singing of love and peace - most of them were in fact conquerors who vastly expanded the imperial borders during their reign. But they treated their people well, which is what ruling is all about.

But that's where people are getting their facts in a jumblef**k: being a paragon is not about sitting in a ring and singing f***ing kumbayah. It's about improving the state of civilization for everyone who is part of it, without needlessly exploiting or neglecting it's citizens. A paragon extends his hand to everyone to see who are smart enough to take it and who are stupid enough to bite it.

And to those who don't deserve it, and to those who would retain a millenia old racial caste system, and to those who are simply established autocracies that exploit and neglect those under their jurisdiction...

Paragonism isn't simply the purview of the wise and progressive. There is more than enough space for fools, hypocrits, and apologists for repression among the spectrum. I am no apologist for 'pure*' Renegade for the fact it can lead to just what you dislike, but it is not intrensic either.


When taken to it's 'purest*' form, Paragonism isn't about reserved reaching out and wisdom. It is also wildly incautious, risking the public good and even mass genocide in the name of short-term feel-good niceties. It is neither reasonable or even respectable in its own right.


*The 'pure' form of either point-scale is wildly inconsist. In this case, the 'pick top-right every time.'

In contrast, a Cerberus renegade seems more like a deranged Caligula who expects everyone to attack or betray him, and acts accordingly by launching preemptive attacks against them - a behaviour which naturally fosters the very attitude of animosity and mistrust among the people that surround them, that they were afraid of in the first place.

It's a pleasure to be compared to Caligula, at this point, if only because it's underscores that your perspective on the comparison is fatally flawed. You know neither your opponents, or Caligua.

However, for some reason these mistrustful Cerberus renegades decides to give TIM their undying trust despite him being a decidedly untrustworthy person. This gives me the impression that the Cerberus renegades are either completely ignorant, criminally insane or inconsistent on a meta level.

Study more, learn more, distinguish more, and try again.

[Candidate 88766]

Bad King wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

One thing I would add - I thought shooting Wrex was the renegade choice? I honestly can't remember - my ME1 disc broke ages ago - but thats what I thought. I may be wrong.

No, if you charm/intimidate him he backs down, otherwise whatever option you choose (be it a paragon, renegade or neutral line) he has to die (unless you got him his family armour earlier in the game). When he dies you do get the option to choose what the salarians do with his body (the renegade choice for example is to dump it in the swamps).

Edit: see the posts above mine. It seems then that your role in and attitude towards his death is what is considered paragon or renegade.

Oh I see. My bad.

[Exia001]

Again I would like to point out that R v P debates are pointless given the ME games are games that can be played multiple times and can have differing outcomes, no one choice is always solid and at the end of the day there really is no right or wrong answer, If you wanna be a douche then do so if you wanna be nice, do that too, but it has no bearing outside your own game.

Point: Debates are awesome! But stop taking it so goddanm serious, ME is only a game, a good one, but a game none the less.

[Yezdigerd]

didymos1120 wrote...

I'll also note that as far as the game is concerned, deliberately shooting him is the lesser Renegade action. You get way more points from the intimidation.

Incorrect. Persuasion gives you 9 points. Wasting Wrex gives you 25 renegade points like all major renegade options.