366 réponses à ce sujet

[John Renegade]

Bleachrude wrote...

Ok, again, please point out one time when the renegade outcome actually was the WORST outcome. You keep saying this but you haven't shown one example of where the renegade player gets screwed by their choice....

This thread has actually shown MULTIPLE instances of where taking the paragon action is the worst outcome so paragons have reason to complain (the asari eclipse, the batarian plague victim, Kal Rheegar)...but renegade, exactly how did you get screwed?

Maybe each time you decided to sacrifice lives only to find out later that it didn't matter and that you could've just as easily go the path of moral high ground and saving yourself the trouble?

Those "cases" are about throwing the Renegades a (small) bone instead of making a meaningful alternatives to the paragon path, which would affect the storyline. In other words, I want the equivalent of throwed bones, just on the level of, lets just say, something like the Council decision.

[JamieCOTC]

Maybe it should ... but it won't. Somebody else can put up the "deal w/ it" pic.

[Welsh Inferno]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Maybe it should ... but it won't. Somebody else can put up the "deal w/ it" pic.

[John Renegade]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Maybe it should ... but it won't. Somebody else can put up the "deal w/ it" pic.

If you're answering to me: Did you just admit I was right?

Yeah, I will "deal with it" by being much more careful in the future, before I decide to give hundreds of dollars to Bioware for scam like ME series is turning out to be. Choices matter. Sure.

[Kaiser Shepard]

 

Bleachrude wrote...
I mean, if choice and consequence really meant something, a human council should mean that being a spectrecarries no weight among the other races....

If choice/consequence actually meant something, there'd be an actual human Council to begin with. As it stands, neither new Council appears in ME2, and the human one is completely retconned out of existence in ME3.

Andorfiend wrote...

It's still up in the air, how some of those choices will play out.

Rachni may be indoctrinated.

Spoilers:

For a change, the Renegade decision turns out to be right on this one, but the decision itself is done away with for the sake of railroading: "You actually made the right decision this time, but here's another Queen."
 

Shiala may turn out to channel the Thorian.

If only.

Elnora was a murderess.

Watch as it turns out she reforms and opens an orphanage.

I cannot see how letting Balak go to save a few hostages was a 'good' decision.

Spoilers:

Balak turns out to be an admiral of all things and not only provides Shep with extra forces for the final battle, but also gives an exclusive bit of information on the Leviathan of Dis Renegades will miss out on. 

Paragon isn't always right, Renegade isn't always wrong. He is usually a jerk though.

Doing what is necessary =/= jerk.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 18 décembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Bleachrude]

John Renegade wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Ok, again, please point out one time when the renegade outcome actually was the WORST outcome. You keep saying this but you haven't shown one example of where the renegade player gets screwed by their choice....

This thread has actually shown MULTIPLE instances of where taking the paragon action is the worst outcome so paragons have reason to complain (the asari eclipse, the batarian plague victim, Kal Rheegar)...but renegade, exactly how did you get screwed?

Maybe each time you decided to sacrifice lives only to find out later that it didn't matter and that you could've just as easily go the path of moral high ground and saving yourself the trouble?

.

But the renegades are being thrown a bone by having the game actually reward them for being a renegade. A paragon only gets "feel good" reward whereas renegade nets you credits - batarian plague victim; easier gameplay - Geth Colossus -on insanity, adept with no Kal Rheegar and no Garrus is one of the hardest damn parts of the game...took me MULTIPLE times to beat;  AND you don't feel like an idiot - female eclipse..I wanted to reload the damn game at that point just to shoot her.

Saving yourself the trouble would be the renegade path since the game  seems to actually reward you for it in ways that actually matter... 

[AquamanOS]

While true some Renagade options seem like they'd seriously hinder a united war front which is basically what you need in ME3 to fight the Reapers.

The standard Renagade responses towards the Quarian/Geth situation is to encourage war as opposed to peace, which will likely waste time with a 2nd war, and deprive Shepard of a faction of allies if the Geth are wiped out.

Likewise the standard Renagade protocol towards the Krogan's is to be nasty towards them, and tell them they deserve the genophage, which is going to cause major problems getting them on board for an alliance. Which would be bad, because the Krogan's are some of the best soldiers in the galaxy.

[Chuvvy]

 Well, as someone who has read the script. I can say everyone will be very pleased with how the Rachni are handled. (Not really) Just like the base decision. (Again, not really)

[AVPen]

EDIT: Never mind, apparently that spoiler was inaccurate so my response was not needed.

Modifié par AVPen, 19 décembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Yezdigerd]

John Renegade wrote...


Renegade is supposed to be about making sacrifices to ensure a better outcome, not about kicking puppies.

I'm sorry but in the Mass Effect universe a big part about being a renegade is kicking puppies. From the totally unprovoked assault on the mentally deficent Manuel on Eden Prime and onwards.

But if you are sometimes allowed to make such a choice, you later find out, that that sacrifice was utterly meaningless, because by not making it you could have achieved just the same (or sometimes even better) outcome. And more content. And it happens to you like that all the time...

What is this more content you speak of? E-mails?

Maybe each time you decided to
sacrifice lives only to find out later that it didn't matter and that
you could've just as easily go the path of moral high ground and saving
yourself the trouble?

What is it that you actually sacrifice? The council? The game does everything possible to make you loathe them.
Screwing the council over is a renegade REWARD, not a sacrifice because the player has every reason to wish them good riddance.

Also it's really stupid game design to punish one path. If you really want to make it absolutely clear that the renegade choice was the better option, you are simply determining the right choice.

[John Renegade]

@yezdigerd: You meet with the council, I don't. You physically meet several characters, I don't (I know they're dead, but maybe someone else could've appeared to carry on revenge or something similar...)

From what devs said, renegade is supposed to be the end justify the means type of person.

You get equivalent amount of content after sacrificing the council, but only in ME1, not in ME2 as mentioned above. Plus some people hate you more, but nobody likes you more. You could also say, that saving the council was its own reward and paragons should not have any perks (like seeing the council) in ME2.

The renegade path is punished, not the paragon one. Also, I don't want to punish anyone, I simply want Mass Effect trilogy to, in general, have about the same amount of positive consequences for renegades as it has for paragons. The same with negative consequences. How that's done (more negative consequences for paragons or positive for renegades or whatever) doesn't matter that much to me.

Modifié par John Renegade, 18 décembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[JamieCOTC]

jreezy wrote...

If renegade choices still result in saving the galaxy I consider that a job well done.

Ultimately, I think BW wrote themselves into a corner and oversold the “choices matter.” Yeah, choices matter.  Renegades probably won’t see Conrad Verner. As to which path is right, paragon or renegade, I’ve played both and everything in between.  Ultimately, it’s up to the individual player.  Do I wish that my renegade could join Cerberus in ME3 and establish human dominance? Yes.  Do I wish my Paragon could write the Reapers a strongly worded letter?  Actually, that would be pretty funny, but no.
 
Anyway as a default ME2 game was basically a full renegade run, this might make renegades a little less bitter.
http://twitter.com/#...441339389329408

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 18 décembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[AlexXIV]

Actually there should not be renegade or paragon. The main problem of the choices in ME are the paragon/renegade system. They should have given options without labeling one the 'good' and one the 'evil' to begin with. It only serves to make stupid people even more stupid. Just give us options and we choose ourselves if they are good and evil. And give them consequences based on logic/common sense instead of morale lectures.

[John Renegade]

@Jamie, Saphra, Alex: We can agree on that.

@Jamie: I'm just going to wait, until promises become facts. Not doing so burned me in past when dealing with Bioware.

Modifié par John Renegade, 18 décembre 2011 - 09:03 .

[Icinix]

AlexXIV wrote...

Actually there should not be renegade or paragon. The main problem of the choices in ME are the paragon/renegade system. They should have given options without labeling one the 'good' and one the 'evil' to begin with. It only serves to make stupid people even more stupid. Just give us options and we choose ourselves if they are good and evil. And give them consequences based on logic/common sense instead of morale lectures.

Yeah - in ME1 the sytem was your traditional intimidate / persuade skill upgrade. Which game when used, presented blue or red choices which got you different outcomes outside of paragon / renegade or top / bottom choices.

One that springs to mind is going a persuade check (blue) Nassana's sister to get a unique manufacturer license. Where the paragon response is telling her to go stick it.

Same as the Thorian - paragon is shooting the CEO, blue persuade speaks corporate.

Generally I found that whole system to be much more satisfying with grey areas the player decided what was right, not blue is good, red is bad.

[Inprea]

AlexXIV wrote...

Actually there should not be renegade or paragon. The main problem of the choices in ME are the paragon/renegade system. They should have given options without labeling one the 'good' and one the 'evil' to begin with. It only serves to make stupid people even more stupid. Just give us options and we choose ourselves if they are good and evil. And give them consequences based on logic/common sense instead of morale lectures.

It was nice that they did that with dragon age origins. Especially with some of the choices like the Dwarfs when you're having to choose between a well meaning fool or an extremely competent tyrant as a ruler.

Hopefully they've learned from that experience but I believe the Paragon/Renegade system has been a part of Mass Effect for too long for them to remove it. I did prefer the diplomacy intimidate skills from Mass Effect 1 however as no matter how good intentions you are that does not give you a silver tongue and no matter how aggressive you are that doesn't mean you know how to provoke fear.

[Yezdigerd]

John Renegade wrote...
You meet with the council, I don't.

And I didn't get the satisfaction of giving them a taste of their own medicine, if the short holographic dialogue is so important to you, don't kill them off.

You physically meet several characters, I don't (I know they're dead, but maybe someone else could've appeared to carry on revenge or something similar...)

Just about all reappearing characters are those killed for lulz, if you are that bloodthirsty it's pretty pointless creating new npcs for you to kill. Anyway the actual things you "miss" are  like 5 minutes out of 40 hours. making an issue of it is silly.

From what devs said, renegade is supposed to be the end justify the means type of person.

Well they aint. I fully support a more realistic renegade path, problem is that the resident renegades here consider the current behaviour realistic.

You get equivalent amount of content after sacrificing the council, but only in ME1, not in ME2 as mentioned above. Plus some people hate you more, but nobody likes you more. You could also say, that saving the council was its own reward and paragons should not have any perks (like seeing the council) in ME2.

Well if being loved and well liked are important to you, you aren't really a renegade?

The renegade path is punished, not the paragon one.

No it isn't. the renegade path allows you to do outrageous malicious thing without consequences, the paragon path allows you to feel good about saving pixels. it's really your choice, you can save the galaxy either way.

[mybudgee]

Actually I support this reasoning. Renegades might be a more effective thorn in the Reaper's side. As far as the morality debate goes, and I believe I have seen this thread before, it is a pretty good system. It isn't good or evil, that was KOTOR. Shep cannot be 'evil', he can be ruthless or a by the book type of marine.
One related thing that I have been hoping for, is more direct responses to dialogue. Not so many general translation errors. You know, shep has "Hell No" on the dialogue wheel, and the dialogue he actually says is " I dont think that's a good idea"

[Random citizen]

I´ve said it before and I will say it again, Renegade options often come across as deficient in terms of social and emotional understanding. To often it seem to involve alienating potential allies or not bothering understanding the bigger picture. On the other hand, paragon action sometimes seem to be a rather naive and overly idealistic path that can endanger not only the mission but also the greater galactic community (like saving the destiny ascension instead of focusing on Sovereign).

The lesson is perhaps that being overly zealot in either direction should result in problems, while applying paragon or renegade choices where they are functional should result in success.

[mybudgee]

GO Paragades!!

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Yezdigerd wrote...

I'm sorry but in the Mass Effect universe a big part about being a renegade is kicking puppies. From the totally unprovoked assault on the mentally deficent Manuel on Eden Prime and onwards.

I'm not a Renegade and I can tell you that is completely wrong.  Same with the notion of punching the Reporter (relative to that world)...  I'll explain:

Manuel on Eden Prime was unstable and prone to do something dangerous (haven't you played Dead Space 2?  "Stick a needle in your eye?"  One could argue that people like that (at a time like Eden Prime) need to go to sleep until their meds kick in because you won't be back to keep the peace if something goes wrong.  Shepard himself even explains why he did that... it was not unprovoked.

Punching the Reporter:  Practically everyone we've seen that she interviews has hit her.  In that universe, doing that to her had become socially acceptable for some reason.  Regardless, a Renegade Shepard could be well aware of that.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 18 décembre 2011 - 09:52 .

[The Librarian]

Bioware have their view on Rengade just as fans has their. Rengade is not just about doing hard decisions. It's also about being an ****. Sadly for those who don't agree, it is Biowared version that matters. If you don't like it, grow a pare, get over it and play Paragade.

Just because a person likes one way better don't mean that that way should be a good way.

Modifié par The Librarian, 18 décembre 2011 - 09:53 .