366 réponses à ce sujet

[XyleJKH]

Although I agree about it, thayer should be consequences for both sides

[Bleachrude]

Rojahar...you keep saying

"Renegades get screwed over while paragons get all the good stuff"

Except for the actual fact that paragon player can point to quantifiable points in ME2 where taking the paragon option nets you less stuff...

Now, want to show how the renegade option actually caused anything "bad" to happen would bolster your argument...but I haven't seen anything other than "well, the game oesn't mae you feel as good when taking the renegade option".

[BellaStrega]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Manuel on Eden Prime was unstable and prone to do something dangerous (haven't you played Dead Space 2?  "Stick a needle in your eye?"  One could argue that people like that (at a time like Eden Prime) need to go to sleep until their meds kick in because you won't be back to keep the peace if something goes wrong.  Shepard himself even explains why he did that... it was not unprovoked.

Actually, mentally unstable people - mentally ill people - are significantly more likely to be victims of violence than instigators of it. You punched him out? You simply reinforced the statistics. Such a reaction may be rationalized by Shepard after doing it, but it's a pretty ignorant move.

Punching the Reporter:  Practically everyone we've seen that she interviews has hit her.  In that universe, doing that to her had become socially acceptable for some reason.  Regardless, a Renegade Shepard could be well aware of that.

That became socially acceptable because Shepard punched her. What do you do when the press asks uncomfortable questions? Punch the reporter out? There's something wrong with this approach.

[Drone223]

Don't like paragon or renegade you can always play neutral Shepard

Modifié par Drone223, 19 décembre 2011 - 12:32 .

[Labrev]

 I also used to believe the "Paragon path always wins" myth, then I took an arrow to the knee failed Zaeed loyalty mission.

When I saw the options I was like: "We should stick to Vido, but nah, I'll probably be able to catch him anyway if I go save the workers... *takes paragon path* ... Oh shiii-! The dude got away!"

As soon as I saw it actually mattered, I reloaded and changed my decision. I even had the Charm option to still get Zaeed's loyalty, but I was like F that. I figured it I hadn't metagamed it, I would've made that decision. So yeah.


I also stopped believing it after I actually played a renegade career. I thought renegade decisions were the "screwed" choices, but ultimately I saw it was pretty much the opposite. Other than the Collector Base, there are basically no risks involved with renegade decisions.

[Drone223]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

 I also used to believe the "Paragon path always wins" myth, then I took an arrow to the knee failed Zaeed loyalty mission.

When I saw the options I was like: "We should stick to Vido, but nah, I'll probably be able to catch him anyway if I go save the workers... *takes paragon path* ... Oh shiii-! The dude got away!"

As soon as I saw it actually mattered, I reloaded and changed my decision. I even had the Charm option to still get Zaeed's loyalty, but I was like F that. I figured it I hadn't metagamed it, I would've made that decision. So yeah.


I also stopped believing it after I actually played a renegade career. I thought renegade decisions were the "screwed" choices, but ultimately I saw it was pretty much the opposite. Other than the Collector Base, there are basically no risks involved with renegade decisions.

I like this human

[JeffZero]

Yeah, I can't think of any either.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, the Zaeed thing was nicely done. That was ME2-specific though.

Modifié par JeffZero, 19 décembre 2011 - 12:35 .

[JeffZero]

Rojahar wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I also used to believe the "Paragon path always wins" myth, then I took an arrow to the knee failed Zaeed loyalty mission.

When I saw the options I was like: "We should stick to Vido, but nah, I'll probably be able to catch him anyway if I go save the workers... *takes paragon path* ... Oh shiii-! The dude got away!"

As soon as I saw it actually mattered, I reloaded and changed my decision. I even had the Charm option to still get Zaeed's loyalty, but I was like F that. I figured it I hadn't metagamed it, I would've made that decision. So yeah.

Uh, as a Paragon, you get a charm option for Zaeed. Even if you screw him over, you can still get his loyalty, and he doesn't seem to hold a grudge at all. If you're a Renegade though, and don't catch Vido, then you're SOL.

I LIKE the fact that there isn't always a charm option for both, and that you can have consequences for being a certain alignment that leave you SOL. I just wish it was applied to both alignments, so that both had genuinely tempting pros and cons. I wish it wasn't just a matter of "Make allies." or "Do not make allies." but more... "Which allies will you make?"

How is it possible to not catch Vido as a Renegade? I don't remember that being an option.

[Labrev]

BellaStrega wrote...

Punching the Reporter:  Practically everyone we've seen that she interviews has hit her.  In that universe, doing that to her had become socially acceptable for some reason.  Regardless, a Renegade Shepard could be well aware of that.

That became socially acceptable because Shepard punched her. What do you do when the press asks uncomfortable questions? Punch the reporter out? There's something wrong with this approach.

Punching the reporter is stupid no matter how you spin it. And pretty downright unsavory if you're doing it as a Male!Shep. If you can handle a little bit of criticism from a random civilian, frankly you aren't cut out for making important decisions in the world. There's an action that should have consequences, but doesn't.

Besides which, that reaction is exactly what she was trying to get out of you. So ultimately, that joke's on you.

I've had two Sheps do it. But, both of them are morons. My smart renegade uses that interview to make herself look good, knowing that she's a controversial figure in the world.

[Medhia Nox]

If your enemy has a goal - then you must stop your enemy from achieving this goal.

ONE of Sovereign's goals is to destabilize galactic government - Vigil specifically states that this was one of, if not the, key factor is annihilating the Prothean empire.

The galactic government happens to be evacuating in... the Destiny Ascension.

One does not have to be a mental giant to believe that not only are the three Council leaders - but all government representatives of all participating Council worlds on the Destiny Ascension.

This is even barring the fact that Ashley says at the very beginning of Mass Effect 1... that the MAIN GUN (stating plainly that there are more) - of the Destiny Ascension could destroy any ship in the Alliance fleet.

====

The fact that they allowed Council space to not immediately dissolve into war... was actually clear favoritism to the insanely poor Renegade choice.

The "hard choice" was not to allow the governing body of Council space to be destroyed... and, lose the greatest ship in Council space - for the sake of a few soldiers.

The HARDEST CHOICE... was to sacrifice Alliance soldiers (and Turians) - to save politicians.

People who primarily play Renegade have some legitimate complaints about how the Renegade path was handled... but this incessant complaining goes too far when obviously poor choices are argued as "logical".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 décembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[SynheKatze]

JeffZero wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I also used to believe the "Paragon path always wins" myth, then I took an arrow to the knee failed Zaeed loyalty mission.

When I saw the options I was like: "We should stick to Vido, but nah, I'll probably be able to catch him anyway if I go save the workers... *takes paragon path* ... Oh shiii-! The dude got away!"

As soon as I saw it actually mattered, I reloaded and changed my decision. I even had the Charm option to still get Zaeed's loyalty, but I was like F that. I figured it I hadn't metagamed it, I would've made that decision. So yeah.

Uh, as a Paragon, you get a charm option for Zaeed. Even if you screw him over, you can still get his loyalty, and he doesn't seem to hold a grudge at all. If you're a Renegade though, and don't catch Vido, then you're SOL.

I LIKE the fact that there isn't always a charm option for both, and that you can have consequences for being a certain alignment that leave you SOL. I just wish it was applied to both alignments, so that both had genuinely tempting pros and cons. I wish it wasn't just a matter of "Make allies." or "Do not make allies." but more... "Which allies will you make?"

How is it possible to not catch Vido as a Renegade? I don't remember that being an option.

He's referring to a player who usually takes the renegade path, then choosing the option to save the workers. If you're a pure renegade, you're screwed.

[robarcool]

Haha, another thread about how paragons shouldn't get the best outcome!

[Bleachrude]

Rojahar wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Except for the actual fact that paragon player can point to quantifiable points in ME2 where taking the paragon option nets you less stuff...

Name ONE quantifiable Paragon consequence with Paragon in the net loss like you claim. Name ONE reason why not always choosing Paragon doesn't lead to a perfect playthrough.

I've went over the losses for Renegade. Not only are you hated by everyone, even supposed allies, but you miss out on character cameos (there are cameos Renegade would have, but don't), you miss out on Spectre status, you miss out on war assets in ME3, and every decision in the end proves to either blow up in your face or not matter at all.

1. Character cameos which have no aspect on the actual game (as an aside, wasn't that more of a bug in the flags...I thought didymose restored dialogue indicated what renegade options were around still)
2. Again, I distinctly remember regaining spectre status with a human council\\
3. The eclipse merc plays you for a fool and gets away; you lose the credits in the early game when they matter most if you save the batarian and saving Rheegar makes the geth colossus stage actually harder.

The only thing renegades lose is people slapping them on the back
Hell, you get to recruit Samara and she doesn't kill you right where you stand no matter how renengade you've acted...you can lie and recruit Jack and still gain her loyalty no matter how renegade you are...

You can even kill Samara and choose Morinth and suffer absolutely no problem in any part of the game - domination is usually considered equal to reave as a bonus power)

(As an aside, please don't use ME3 spoilers..trying to keep myself ignorant about it..thanks)

[Labrev]

Rojahar wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I also used to believe the "Paragon path always wins" myth, then I took an arrow to the knee failed Zaeed loyalty mission.

When I saw the options I was like: "We should stick to Vido, but nah, I'll probably be able to catch him anyway if I go save the workers... *takes paragon path* ... Oh shiii-! The dude got away!"

As soon as I saw it actually mattered, I reloaded and changed my decision. I even had the Charm option to still get Zaeed's loyalty, but I was like F that. I figured it I hadn't metagamed it, I would've made that decision. So yeah.

Uh, as a Paragon, you get a charm option for Zaeed. Even if you screw him over, you can still get his loyalty, and he doesn't seem to hold a grudge at all. If you're a Renegade though, and don't catch Vido, then you're SOL.

Well thanks for not reading my post as I specifically acknowledged that.

First of all, that Charm option is REALLY hard to get! I've been doing some ME2 speed-runs lately and basing the decision on whether I want the heavy-weapon upgrade (paragon) or AR upgrade (renegade). Seriously, you need Jack/Miranda-catfight level Charm to unlock it. So it's really not so easily obtainable in the least.

I agree there should have been an Intimidate option for it too. Maybe they thought the option to leave him to die was sort of it though. As for holding a grudge, there's really no indication that he still does if you screwed his mission and didn't convince him either, other than showing "loyal" on the squad-screen. He's otherwise exactly the same.

At the end of the day, the renegade path got the job done. The paragon path let the bad guy get away. And for what... 4 refinery workers? A legligible additional sum of creds? In fact, the paragon path pretty much saved them for nothing in the end if you read the ME3 leaks on Zaeed. I mean I'm sure the negative nancies on this site will still find a way to complain about it, but nonetheless.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 19 décembre 2011 - 01:03 .

[BellaStrega]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Punching the reporter is stupid no matter how you spin it. And pretty downright unsavory if you're doing it as a Male!Shep. If you can handle a little bit of criticism from a random civilian, frankly you aren't cut out for making important decisions in the world. There's an action that should have consequences, but doesn't.

Besides which, that reaction is exactly what she was trying to get out of you. So ultimately, that joke's on you.

I've had two Sheps do it. But, both of them are morons. My smart renegade uses that interview to make herself look good, knowing that she's a controversial figure in the world.

Indeed. There's a certain catharsis to laying out someone who's being so smug and making so many disingenuous assertions, but much more satisfaction in rhetorically leaving them in the dust after they tried to trap you in semantics and insinuation.

[BlueMagitek]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Well thanks for not reading my post as I specifically acknowledged that.

First of all, that Charm option is REALLY hard to get! I've been doing some ME2 speed-runs lately and basing the decision on whether I want the heavy-weapon upgrade (paragon) or AR upgrade (renegade). Seriously, you need Jack/Miranda-catfight level Charm to unlock it. So it's really not so easily obtainable in the least.

Are you just starting a new ME 2 run or importing, because importing and doing Zaeed's mission straight off the bat I've never had a problem. >_>

Actually, I've never really had a problem with the import bonus regardless of how I play, so.... yeah.  Paragade fo lyfe.

[Labrev]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Well thanks for not reading my post as I specifically acknowledged that.

First of all, that Charm option is REALLY hard to get! I've been doing some ME2 speed-runs lately and basing the decision on whether I want the heavy-weapon upgrade (paragon) or AR upgrade (renegade). Seriously, you need Jack/Miranda-catfight level Charm to unlock it. So it's really not so easily obtainable in the least.

Are you just starting a new ME 2 run or importing, because importing and doing Zaeed's mission straight off the bat I've never had a problem. >_>

Actually, I've never really had a problem with the import bonus regardless of how I play, so.... yeah.  Paragade fo lyfe.

New ME2/NG+'s so the P/R bonuses are wiped out. With the ME1 bonus, everything is easy to get.

[DarthCaine]

Having read the spoilers file, ME1/ME2's choices don't matter at all, however ME3's renegade choices do lead to a more successful war effort

Modifié par DarthCaine, 19 décembre 2011 - 01:56 .

[KevShep]

DarthCaine wrote...

Having read the spoilers file, ME1/ME2's choices don't matter at all,

I dont think thats the case at all. Having saved or killed the Rachni queen does matter, Just like saving or destroying the collector base.

I want ME1 and 2 to mean somthing...to accomplish something.

Are you sure that thats what was said in the file? If it does then Bioware shot themselves in the foot big time!

Modifié par KevShep, 19 décembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[Durgon Ironfist]

Rojahar wrote...

Durgon Ironfist wrote...

To sum up this thread:
TLDR;
I'm renegade and thus I should be right. My opinions are greater than yours paragons are pansies. Seriously don't you coxcombs have better uses of your time and energy?????

Spot on. Thank you for contributing intelligent points to the discussion. I honestly don't know how people try claiming, as dickishly as they do, that the options are anything other than "perfect or dumb a-hole" when decisions like killing the Rachni Queen or supporting Cerberus lead to both of them STILL becoming antagonists. Yet letting a world-destroying terrorist go leads to him coming back as an ally who exclusively helps Paragons who let him go. There are lots of exclusive benefits for paragon decisions, from war assets in ME3 to better succeed at the game,to everyone always praising your decisions even if its a character who should object.

Why are there perks for Paragons, but none for Renegades? Why choose Renegade, exactly? Isn't the "Dark Side" supposed to be quicker and easier? But Paragon is actually the quicker and easierpath. But aren't Renegades supposed to sacrifice their morals to guarantee the job gets done? But Paragon gambles, like letting terrorists vowing revenge go free, always magically work out, and even the most certain Renegade decisions like killing the Rachni Queen, always somehow blow up in your face, like how the Reapers just magicallycreated a new one.

What's sad is people would throw a ****fit ifit were reversed. Apparently I'm one of the few people who's actually played through the game several times and with varying choices and alignments. I see a lot of people defensively trying to covet the alignment they somehow identify with (I'm a blue guy! I want blue guys to be best and perfect!!!) instead of thinking of the overall game, or WANTING the game to offer compelling choices that make you think or makeyou want to mix up your choices instead of blindly going blue.

Based off my personal experience I'll say this: Do it right or don't do it at all. I have several examples (One historic):

1)2 FBI agents are gunned down on a reservation when they forgo protocol
and open fire on the man they're chasing. 2/3 of the shooters are
aquited on self defense.

2) Friend of mine skips making a proper scofld to paint his house, falls and busts his ass (literally)

3) I speed to get to work early, but get a ticket and thus I am late 

My point is I don't personally have a problem to see the Rens suffer, or see them believe they suffer when they in fact do not. If paragon decision blew up in my face and made my task that much more difficult I welcome to aditional challenge. It's a game.

I will admit it's unenlightened of them to choose a more linear path. The Witcher 2 provided varity and fun depending on your choices. I guess Bioware is set in their ways and we can only hope they work on it next round.

Finally I have played renegade, felt like a douchbag the whole time. It's like when I fired up warcraft 3 and played the undead campaign. Very fun but being evil/impatient douchbag isn't appealing to me.

And just to poke fun at you: Have fun with your gimped fleet.

Now to wait for Mr. Priestly to hunt me down and steal my soul.

Modifié par Durgon Ironfist, 19 décembre 2011 - 02:29 .