79 réponses à ce sujet

[Locutus_of_BORG]

I never got around to a Claymore Vanguard PT, and with sever al PTs left to finish and ME3's release drawing near, I may have to suffer the cost of my folly for a long time to come.
Everyone should play Claymore Vanguard at least once, if you wish to live a decent and complete life.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:28 .

[capn233]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
Everyone should play Claymore Vanguard at least once, if you wish to live a decent and complete life.

Claymore is overrated

[HolyAvenger]

Claymore Vanguard is the second-most deadliest Shepard I've played (behind only a Widow Infiltrator), and definitely one of the most fun.

I don't use the reload-trick either. Its still fine. 22 shots, Charge and the melee upgrade should mean most battles are about zooming about field, hitting enemies in the face and then blowing them to pieces.

[ryoldschool]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Claymore Vanguard is the second-most deadliest Shepard I've played (behind only a Widow Infiltrator), and definitely one of the most fun.

I don't use the reload-trick either. Its still fine. 22 shots, Charge and the melee upgrade should mean most battles are about zooming about field, hitting enemies in the face and then blowing them to pieces.

I love the claymore, but really its not the best shotgun without the reload trick.  I used the claymore on my shotgun soldier ( and so did Mi-Chan and RedCaesar97 ) and we all used the reload trick.  I believe that all the claymore vanguard videos out there use the relaod trick also.

You can see in that video I posted four posts up that it makes a big difference in the damage dealt.

[Bogsnot1]

I always mod the Claymore so its 2 shots before reload, and I never* use the reload trick. I grew up using double barrel shotty's, so 2 shots before reload feels more natural to me.

*I never use it intentionally. It sometimes happens in the middle of a battle, but feces happens.

[CoffeeHolic93]

ryoldschool wrote...


I love the claymore, but really its not the best shotgun without the reload trick.  I used the claymore on my shotgun soldier ( and so did Mi-Chan and RedCaesar97 ) and we all used the reload trick.  I believe that all the claymore vanguard videos out there use the relaod trick also.

You can see in that video I posted four posts up that it makes a big difference in the damage dealt.

To "justify" the use of the reload-trick with something that's not purely "fun-factor."

I tried to play a claymore-only soldier for the most part. That meant I had no ranged damage to speak of, so I couldn't thin out the enemy numbers at range before rushing in and de-torsoing bad guys. I needed the extra killing speed to make sure I wouldn't die after bumrushing the first guy. Especially since I didn't have a shield regen other than medigel.

[HolyAvenger]

*shrugs* I finished the game with a Claymore Vanguard on insanity without the reload trick, so I certainly never found it absolutely necessary. The trick feels like cheating to me so I don't use it. The time it takes to reload normally is about what you need for your charge cooldown to finish. That synergy works well for me.

[ryoldschool]

There was a thread about a year ago about the Reload Trick on the Claymore, including comments by Christina Norman at the end ( page 9 ) 

With the "maneuver" the Claymore becomes the best shotgun, and its not a mod you have to make, and it allows for some fun gameplay.

Here is sinosleep's shotgun comparison from his comparison thread.



Shotgun comparison test vol. 3 vs armor 

 

Ok, this volume 3 so you guys know what's up at this point no need for another long intro. Instead I'll start things off with what I'm sure is going to lead to a lot of WTF. How on earth did the charged shot gps take longer than the uncharged shot gps. Well, bad luck basically. I throw my melees in the same order every time and only do two in a row onthe evi where it fits in between the frames. If a weapon runs out of ammo after the melee strikes then I wait until I can shoot again to start using melee attacks again. And that's what happened to the GPS. Without the melee strike the first shot after the reload took an eternity and that's what made for the strange time. 

Moving on though, here are all the times. 

gps no charge: 8.2 seconds

gps charged on first shot: 8.35 seconds 

evi: 8.433 seconds 

scimi: 10.733 

katana: 9.483

claymore reload trick: 7.317 

claymore: 10.1

The claymore makes it's triumphant return as king of the hill!
__ 

[HolyAvenger]

Uhhh ok. None of that changes my mind about the fact that I think the reload trick is like cheating and hence won't use it.

Minmaxing is dumb.

[CoffeeHolic93]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Uhhh ok. None of that changes my mind about the fact that I think the reload trick is like cheating and hence won't use it.

Minmaxing is dumb.

Whatever floats your boat. 

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Mi-Chan wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Uhhh ok. None of that changes my mind about the fact that I think the reload trick is like cheating and hence won't use it.

Minmaxing is dumb.

Whatever floats your boat. 

Pretty much, but when "the trick" works on every gun and the technique exists in most every action game and is basically a staple of an entire genre of video games (ie: fighting games), I won't consider animation-cancelling a cheat.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 20 janvier 2012 - 08:10 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
Pretty much, but when "the trick" works on every gun and the technique exists in most every action game and is basically a staple of an entire genre of video games (ie: fighting games), I won't consider animation-cancelling a cheat.

To me, it's as much of a cheat as using the Widow or heck, firing at the enemy.  But hey, if he has more fun without the reload-trick that's his thing. I find the animation awesome as it looks like you're slapping them while shooting. :innocent:

[capn233]

It feels like an exploit to me too... but now I am desensitized and try to use rolling out of cover and powers to reload other various weapons faster.

[HolyAvenger]

My boat floats quite well and I love playing a Claymore vanguard without using said trick so I'm happy.

[ryoldschool]

@ Avenger Reload Trick is not cheating, as per Christina Norma ( guess you did not read the thread )

What she said in that thread:
============================================================================
The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:



Here is an example of it in use in street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/



If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.


============================================================================


This is a single player game, you can decide what tools of the game has to use or not. There are some other things that are "interesting" that you may not want to use

(1) flashbang on harby
(2) Tech Armor Squad reset feature
(3) Stasis - even if you don't shoot the enemy during fall of death, your squad probably will
(4) Mattock under ARush
(5) Warp bombs
(6) Heavy weapons
yatta, yatta, yatta - all these are designed into the game

Just saying...

[HolyAvenger]

Lucky for me Christina Norman doesn't get to define what I find to be cheating eh. I don't judge other people who use it, but I don't use it myself as it feels like cheating. To me. Personally.

I don't play fighting games either so I don't really care what's standard in that genre.

The other things you mentioned (maybe apart from Stasis ragdolling) are not on par with reload trick (see the word trick, you're exploiting a feature not built into the standard gameplay?). The reload animation is meant to take so long as a disadvantage to use the most powerful shotgun in the game. Fine. I'll happily pay that price and work it into my gameplay.

[capn233]

The problem I have with the reload trick, and specifically the answer given by Norman, is as I said before that it seems like bad implementation that has morphed into a feature. And as for the fighting games I see it called an exploit more often then a feature.

More specifically, if it was only reloading on the Claymore that was shortened by perhaps only melee... and it was documented in the game as a way to improve reload speed that would be one thing. The problem is that any animation can shorten the reload. Whatever, let's just ignore that for a moment and assume they intended any animation to shorten reload on all weapons.

What about enemies being immune to your powers during their animations? Is this also a feature that was put into the game? Or is it that this is also a symptom of the way animations are implemented.

ryoldschool's list is a pretty standard list of things some might find way too powerful... most have unintended behavior.

Flashbang lasts too long on Harbi... it's interesting in that it lasts less than its duration on normal enemies, as it should.

Tech Armor squad power reset was supposed to be removed before the final copy of the game and it wasn't.

Stasis has a ridiculous damage bonus to enemies as they fall... and it probably shouldn't work on large units at rank 1.

Mattock's ROF of 750 is way out of line with every other weapon in the game.

As for the last two... not entirely sure why they are there except that they are pretty powerful. Some of the bonus heavy weapons might be a little too good. I am ignorant of issues with warp bombs though.

Returning to the Claymore, it is ok without the trick. Actually I am tempted to call it mediocre. Probably why you have so many people commenting on it. To each their own. I take Garrus on almost every mission and everyone tells me Thane is better

Modifié par capn233, 21 janvier 2012 - 06:51 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

capn233 wrote...

The problem I have with the reload trick, and specifically the answer given by Norman, is as I said before that it seems like bad implementation that has morphed into a feature. And as for the fighting games I see it called an exploit more often then a feature.

More specifically, if it was only reloading on the Claymore that was shortened by perhaps only melee... and it was documented in the game as a way to improve reload speed that would be one thing. The problem is that any animation can shorten the reload. Whatever, let's just ignore that for a moment and assume they intended any animation to shorten reload on all weapons.

What about enemies being immune to your powers during their animations? Is this also a feature that was put into the game? Or is it that this is also a symptom of the way animations are implemented.

ryoldschool's list is a pretty standard list of things some might find way too powerful... most have unintended behavior.

Flashbang lasts too long on Harbi... it's interesting in that it lasts less than its duration on normal enemies, as it should.

Tech Armor squad power reset was supposed to be removed before the final copy of the game and it wasn't.

Stasis has a ridiculous damage bonus to enemies as they fall... and it probably shouldn't work on large units at rank 1.

Mattock's ROF of 750 is way out of line with every other weapon in the game.

As for the last two... not entirely sure why they are there except that they are pretty powerful. Some of the bonus heavy weapons might be a little too good. I am ignorant of issues with warp bombs though.

Returning to the Claymore, it is ok without the trick. Actually I am tempted to call it mediocre. Probably why you have so many people commenting on it. To each their own. I take Garrus on almost every mission and everyone tells me Thane is better

Who cares if Thane is better, he doesn't have bro-status.

As for the discussion, I'm amazed by how civil everyone is - it's nice to see. 

I will say that I rarely play the Claymore-Reload Tricking Vanguard as it gets way too easy. Then you get hard shields and it's even easier.

On a soldier though? Where you only use the shotgun? Then I find the reload trick to be just fine. You have to charge manually, thus taking fire and losing your shields. Then you're in the red and it's a kill-or-be-killed situation that requires killing speed. There's also a noticable lack of staggers that the Vanguard has.

Instead of talking about overpowered versus not overpowered and what's cheating/not cheating since these can be subjective (barring Heightened A rush + Mattock and Stasis-fall-of-death) and let's leave it at "I find x fun, and you find y fun." There's no need to beat a dead horse.

Agreed? 

[ryoldschool]

^ I'm cool with that.

[Praetor Knight]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

"Do you know why I prefer the Scimitar? The Claymore is too quick. You can's savor all the... little emotions."

Heath is greatly missed.




But, nice quote.

[HolyAvenger]

Hmm, I wasn't aware the Tech Armor squad power reset wasn't supposed to make it into the game. You learn something new everyday.

I didn't really use it when playing my Sentinel but anyway. I don't have the Mattock DLC so can't comment on that.

Oh I can see why people might not like the Claymore. It definitely has its downsides. You miss, your're pretty shafted. That's punishing. But I like one-shotting (or close to one-shotting) enemies, so the Widow and Claymore will always be at the top of my list. Personal preference as you say.

[Kronner]

One-shotting NEVER gets old. The thing is though, that once you get used to it, other weapons (e.g. Scimitar/Katana or Viper/Incisor) feel like peashooters so you keep going back to the good old one-shot-kill machine...in my case, anyway.

Modifié par Kronner, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:09 .

[capn233]

Mi-Chan wrote...


Who cares if Thane is better, he doesn't have bro-status.

Ha that is usually my argument

On a soldier though? Where you only use the shotgun? Then I find the reload trick to be just fine. You have to charge manually, thus taking fire and losing your shields. Then you're in the red and it's a kill-or-be-killed situation that requires killing speed. There's also a noticable lack of staggers that the Vanguard has.

Yeah it isn't all that effective on Soldier unless you use the trick... or are always under Adrenaline Rush...

Instead of talking about overpowered versus not overpowered and what's cheating/not cheating since these can be subjective (barring Heightened A rush + Mattock and Stasis-fall-of-death) and let's leave it at "I find x fun, and you find y fun." There's no need to beat a dead horse.

Agreed? 

Sure.  In terms of fun I think only the Revenant upgrades fun compared to the base class.  Claymore almost does.  Widow... not really.

[AreleX]

Kronner wrote...

One-shotting NEVER gets old. The thing is though, that once you get used to it, other weapons (e.g. Scimitar/Katana or Viper/Incisor) feel like peashooters so you keep going back to the good old one-shot-kill machine...in my case, anyway.

it is incredibly difficult for me to play anything but claymore vanguard for this very reason

it's like going from fliet mignon to hamburger helper

i do believe that assault rifles are redundant on vanguard if you have the locust, save for the stupid that is heavy charge + mattock spam