128 réponses à ce sujet

[ItsFreakinJesus]

didymos1120 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Something like that isn't possible in ME2 unless you use Shepard and another party member.

Actually, it is: with all the cooldown and duration bonuses, Pull cools down quickly enough that it'll still be affecting the enemy. It's still more efficient to have another squaddie do the set-up or knockdown though.

It's nowhere near as rapid nor as broken since the cooldowns, although rapid, are still on the order of a few seconds and is far slower than hitting lift and then hitting throw, especially if you manage to lift multiple enemies. 

[didymos1120]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

It's nowhere near as rapid nor as broken since the cooldowns, although rapid, are still on the order of a few seconds and is far slower than hitting lift and then hitting throw, especially if you manage to lift multiple enemies. 

Yeah, I know.  I was just pointing out that it's still possible, not that it's particularly useful.

[Terror_K]

The thing is, people say "gameplay over lore" but I don't think it's particularly good gameplay wise either personally. Again, you simply go from spamming all your powers to win, ala ME1 to just spamming the same power in ME2 over and over because it cools down so fast. There's also no real benefit or addition of "balance" to things like weapon mod powers affecting the cooldowns and all it does is become frustrating. The fact that biotics were massively nerfed in ME2 also means that even if there were individual cooldowns ala ME1, there's no way you'd be able to win a situation so quickly by an early spam anyway, since the powers aren't really that effective to begin with as long as the enemies have their defenses up. As soon as biotics were nerfed, cooldowns were no longer an issue anyway, so there was no need to make them completely global.

I personally think seperate type cooldowns are both the more lore-friendly, and the best for gameplay. A biotic attack affects all biotics, a tech attack all tech-based powers, etc. It's one of those things were the best answer suits both lore and gameplay, IMO.

[Someone With Mass]

lightsnow13 wrote...

Huh, could have sworn it did. But then again I think the guy only had 1 ammo power. It looked like it had a brief cooldown on it's own..but either way, a short separate cooldown or no cooldown at all doesn't make a difference as long as it doesn't affect your other abilities.

All Shepard will do is an animation for about two-three seconds and then it's activated and you can use other powers.

[Eclipse_9990]

Balance; if it wasn't, then sentinel would be the most OP class.

[Shepard the Leper]

Mental Surge wrote...

...even if you play a class thats designed to use powers more than guns?

There are no (pure) casters in ME. You play an elite soldier and the only thing you're doing when picking a class is to determine whether you want to boost your gun-based combat with either combat, tech, biotic or a combination of powers. ME is about using your weapons, powers and squadies combined (not one or the other).

Why does Bioware use global cooldown? Because:

1. ME is a squadbased shooter with special abilities. Shooter gameplay requires smooth and fast-paced action. Using seperate cooldowns makes things too complicated thus turning the game into turn-based combat which is horrible for any action orientated game.

2. The option to use all powers simultaneous would reduce weapons to junk - just like in ME1 where they were nothing more than a stick to beat an already defeated enemy. This is, again, not something desirable for an action game or any game for that matter.

3. Seperate cooldowns break the game system completely. Going into battle with Miranda and Samara would make Shepard irrelevant: Miranda Overloads shields, Slam-Warpbomb the lot. Samara Reaves armor and barriers, Pulls the lot and Throws them off the map (in less than two seconds). Shep: "What the heck is my purpose in this game? Everybody is death before I can even fire a shot!"

4. Poor Grunt can only fire a Concussive Shot - who would ever bring him to battle ...

5. Global cooldowns can be made fast (seperate cooldowns cannot - way too easy). This encourages using weapons and powers combined (use power - shoot - power - shoot etc) instead of spamming all powers first and having to shoot for a minute or two before being able to use your powers again. Since ME tries to combine powers and shooter gameplay, the former is desirable, the latter is not.

6. Global cooldowns force the player to make tactical desicions all the time. Do you need ability A, B or C in situation X instead of firing ABC regardless because it has no consequences if you don't (like in ME1). Are you going to revive fallen buddies, or CC a particularly dangerous enemy, or do you use a shield boosting ability? You can only use one, not all. Making the wrong decision can get you killed, and you have to make these decisions all the time which, again, increases the excitement (key when creating a game with shooter mechanics).

7. Go play ME1 and ME2 and then ask yourself which system offers the best gaming experience.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

6. Global cooldowns force the player to make tactical desicions all the time. Do you need ability A, B or C in situation X instead of firing ABC regardless because it has no consequences if you don't (like in ME1). Are you going to revive fallen buddies, or CC a particularly dangerous enemy, or do you use a shield boosting ability? You can only use one, not all. Making the wrong decision can get you killed, and you have to make these decisions all the time which, again, increases the excitement (key when creating a game with shooter mechanics).

I'm not sure that's correct in all cases. The decision to rez or not, for instance, is mostly based on whether your ally is in a safe position to do so. It's always your best option if you can rely on your squaddie not getting killed again in a few seconds.

Or take the case of the Vanguard - when you've got something like Charge that clearly outclasses your other abilities, there's no reason not to spam. That class in general has a high shotgun blast to the face : tactical depth ratio (not that I mind that), and what tactical depth there is generally focuses on when to charge and who to charge vs. what power to use. Adept playthroughs can get like this as well, although warp explosions mix it up at least a little.

[Ticktank]

If you have separate cooldowns for biotic and tech abilities then hybrid classes will automatically be stronger than pure ones, unless you implement a balancing factor (like an across the board +X sec cooldown to all abilities for hybrid classes).

Just pick your damn Quarian female and go multiplayer so that my team can grief you.

[Ahriman]

Shepard the Leper wrote...
5. Global cooldowns can be made fast (seperate cooldowns cannot - way too easy). This encourages using weapons and powers combined (use power - shoot - power - shoot etc) instead of spamming all powers first and having to shoot for a minute or two before being able to use your powers again. Since ME tries to combine powers and shooter gameplay, the former is desirable, the latter is not.

Well it doesn't make powers and guns more combined than ME1 way. That's just allows people to use powers almost non-stop. I understand why most of the people like it, but for me it's just the same as ME1 but I should repeat it five times more often.
Oh and if you played ME1 like 

spamming all powers first

You did it wrong, because they should be used in time. 

[jcolt]

gotta say i spammed pull throw most of me1 while fun it did get borin so had to quit usin it

[Omega-202]

Also, there's completely a valid lore explanation for this issue.

Using biotics causes a static build-up in the user. That's straight from the ME1 codex and conversations with Kaidan. Biotics need to ground themselves or else they spark. Its the same reason that ships with mass effect drives need to discharge by landing on a rocky mass or skimming off of a gas giant.

There would be reason to believe that such a static build-up would interfere with electronic systems. Omni-tools may be unsafe to use if there's too high of a build-up in the user just like how you shouldn't use a computer during power surges.

Beyond that, gameplay balance is the main reason.

Anyone who says they didn't see the flaws of ME1's separate cooldowns is lying and simply wants to regain the easy-mode GOD status that the game provided. It wasn't fun. And that's coming from someone who's favorite class was a Singularity Vanguard/Shocktrooper. I loved the shotgun and the biotics but I had to play sub-optimally in order to even pretend I wasn't a walking god capable of tearing a room apart in seconds.

[Dark_Caduceus]

BasilKarlo wrote...

I'm not fond of the universal cooldown either, but in ME2 your powers aren't as necessary on higher difficulties as they were in ME1. Because the shooting was so mediocre you had to rely too much on your powers.
That said, different types of powers should have separate cooldowns. And to avoid the hybrid classes being too overpowered they could give soldiers, engineers and adepts quicker cooldowns.

ME1's difficulty was negated by immunity/shock trooper soecialization and high level frictionless materials regardless of any other powers.

[Shepard the Leper]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Or take the case of the Vanguard - when you've got something like Charge that clearly outclasses your other abilities, there's no reason not to spam. That class in general has a high shotgun blast to the face : tactical depth ratio (not that I mind that), and what tactical depth there is generally focuses on when to charge and who to charge vs. what power to use. Adept playthroughs can get like this as well, although warp explosions mix it up at least a little.

Charge is a very powerful ability indeed, but Inferno Ammo can make life at the frontline a lot easier - it's not an active ability though. Powers like Pull and Slam (bonus power) saw quite some action during my Vanguard playthrough. Their super-fast cooldown didn't interfere with Charging and combined with your squadmates it allows setting up powerful (and (with Slam) instant) warp explosions. But you're right that the Vanguard class needs more abilities; this Nova power looks pretty cool and it doesn't have a cooldown thus can be used frequently (if you manage to stay alive of course
Ammo powers are looking to be more interesting as well.

The Adept and Engineer are my favorite ME2 classes because they rely on teamwork to become truly effective. When I played the combat classes (Vanguard, Soldier and Infiltrator) my squadmates didn't really matter. I hope this will change in ME3.

Wizz wrote...

Well it doesn't make powers and guns more combined than ME1 way. That's just allows people to use powers almost non-stop. I understand why most of the people like it, but for me it's just the same as ME1 but I should repeat it five times more often.
Oh and if you played ME1 like

spamming all powers first

You did it wrong, because they should be used in time.

In ME1 you only need to cast one power to make all enemies irrelevant. All your (squad's) other powers and the quality of your weapons only affected the speed by which you could kill (the harmless) enemies. There isn't much you can do wrong in ME1 - Soldiers and Infiltrators activate Immunity and they've won; Biotic and Tech powers could easily disable all enemies indefinitely. Everything else was just for show.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Or take the case of the Vanguard - when you've got something like Charge that clearly outclasses your other abilities, there's no reason not to spam. That class in general has a high shotgun blast to the face : tactical depth ratio (not that I mind that), and what tactical depth there is generally focuses on when to charge and who to charge vs. what power to use. Adept playthroughs can get like this as well, although warp explosions mix it up at least a little.

Charge is a very powerful ability indeed, but Inferno Ammo can make life at the frontline a lot easier - it's not an active ability though. Powers like Pull and Slam (bonus power) saw quite some action during my Vanguard playthrough. Their super-fast cooldown didn't interfere with Charging and combined with your squadmates it allows setting up powerful (and (with Slam) instant) warp explosions. But you're right that the Vanguard class needs more abilities; this Nova power looks pretty cool and it doesn't have a cooldown thus can be used frequently (if you manage to stay alive of course
Ammo powers are looking to be more interesting as well.

Yeah, I really like the Nova power. Had a massive "I like this human! She understands!" moment when seeing that trailer because it shows that they paid attention to how people played Vanguard and thought hard about how to incorporate and expand on the shield management and high risk/high reward elements of Vanguard gameplay. If every aspect of ME3 gameplay has that level of thought, it's going to be a must-buy for me.

[stonbw1]

Ideally, sentinal or pure biotics could play the entire game without pulling a trigger. This would be a viable option if they were noticeably and considerably less accurate than a soldier. But with universal combat mechanic between all classes, those "non-combat" classes would indeed be overpowering. Personally, I'd love for my pure biotic not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with her pistol, since it would force me to do exactly what she should do: use pure biotics! It would really step up replayability amongst the classes.

[Ahriman]

Shepard the Leper wrote...
In ME1 you only need to cast one power to make all enemies irrelevant. All your (squad's) other powers and the quality of your weapons only affected the speed by which you could kill (the harmless) enemies. There isn't much you can do wrong in ME1 - Soldiers and Infiltrators activate Immunity and they've won; Biotic and Tech powers could easily disable all enemies indefinitely. Everything else was just for show.

While I agree that Immunity is a mistake, other things aren't that bad, enemies could disable you as well. For example Adept may be weapon of mass destruction but should be covered by other teammates [I mean Insanity right now, because only it gives decent balance in my opinion] and one singularity wouldn't be enough.

[Abraham_uk]

I've thought of a lore reason for single cool down. Simple. It is for reasons concentration. If Shepard spams loads of powers at once, they won't be as effective as using one at a time. The cooldown represents Shepard/squadmate regaining focus and preparing for next power attack.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 21 décembre 2011 - 06:54 .

[RedCaesar97]

stonbw1 wrote...
Ideally, sentinal or pure biotics could play the entire game without pulling a trigger. This would be a viable option if they were noticeably and considerably less accurate than a soldier. But with universal combat mechanic between all classes, those "non-combat" classes would indeed be overpowering. Personally, I'd love for my pure biotic not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with her pistol, since it would force me to do exactly what she should do: use pure biotics! It would really step up replayability amongst the classes.

I disagree. Mass Effect is not a Fantasy RPG where you can play a mage that only casts magic. Shepard is an N7 (the Special Forces in the Alliance), so you are trained in weapons, no matter the class. This allows you to alternate between casting and shooting. Being an N7 and not actually being able to shoot a weapon would be a really bad idea; although Mass Effect 1 kind of already did that, which was rectified in Mass Effect 2.

[The Spamming Troll]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...
Ideally, sentinal or pure biotics could play the entire game without pulling a trigger. This would be a viable option if they were noticeably and considerably less accurate than a soldier. But with universal combat mechanic between all classes, those "non-combat" classes would indeed be overpowering. Personally, I'd love for my pure biotic not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with her pistol, since it would force me to do exactly what she should do: use pure biotics! It would really step up replayability amongst the classes.

I disagree. Mass Effect is not a Fantasy RPG where you can play a mage that only casts magic. Shepard is an N7 (the Special Forces in the Alliance), so you are trained in weapons, no matter the class. This allows you to alternate between casting and shooting. Being an N7 and not actually being able to shoot a weapon would be a really bad idea; although Mass Effect 1 kind of already did that, which was rectified in Mass Effect 2.

....it should be.

claiming shepard shouldnt be able to complete the game as a pure biotic becasue hes only an N7 soldier IS NOT the reason why shepard cant complete the game as a pure biotic. just putting that "N7 soldier" label on shepard is something ive never done in either game. hes a soldier, sure. hes got weapons, sure. but hes also got friggin biotics. i mean do you really think biotic characters in the ME universe can ONLY push and pull people around. there should be abilities like "limb remover" or "skull crusher" but thats a problem of the current state of videogames. maybe in ME4 on the XBOX740 well have the capabilities of actually doing major damage as a biotic character.

have you ever played infamous? no weapons, no problem!

[someone else]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
 there should be abilities like "limb remover" or "skull crusher" ...

...how bout greater dexterity and motor control, such as the lift/snuggie - now there's a truly fearsome attack - and the warp-noogie, or for the romantically inclined the biotic zipper pull,  or brassiere-shadowstrike?

Modifié par someone else, 22 décembre 2011 - 02:21 .

[The Spamming Troll]

i could see myself trying to do something like "the stranger" with my biotics.

[someone else]

...love to see it on You-tube...

[RyuGuitarFreak]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...
Ideally, sentinal or pure biotics could play the entire game without pulling a trigger. This would be a viable option if they were noticeably and considerably less accurate than a soldier. But with universal combat mechanic between all classes, those "non-combat" classes would indeed be overpowering. Personally, I'd love for my pure biotic not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with her pistol, since it would force me to do exactly what she should do: use pure biotics! It would really step up replayability amongst the classes.

I disagree. Mass Effect is not a Fantasy RPG where you can play a mage that only casts magic. Shepard is an N7 (the Special Forces in the Alliance), so you are trained in weapons, no matter the class. This allows you to alternate between casting and shooting. Being an N7 and not actually being able to shoot a weapon would be a really bad idea; although Mass Effect 1 kind of already did that, which was rectified in Mass Effect 2.

....it should be.

claiming shepard shouldnt be able to complete the game as a pure biotic becasue hes only an N7 soldier IS NOT the reason why shepard cant complete the game as a pure biotic. just putting that "N7 soldier" label on shepard is something ive never done in either game. hes a soldier, sure. hes got weapons, sure. but hes also got friggin biotics. i mean do you really think biotic characters in the ME universe can ONLY push and pull people around. there should be abilities like "limb remover" or "skull crusher" but thats a problem of the current state of videogames. maybe in ME4 on the XBOX740 well have the capabilities of actually doing major damage as a biotic character.

have you ever played infamous? no weapons, no problem!

Mass Effect was never meant to be played like Infamous on the "caster" class. I don't think that never crossed the developers minds. Anyway...
An example of me playing ME2 insanity adept:
1) singularity;
2) shoot, strip armor/shields;
3) warp bomb/ heavy throw;
4)???
5) profit

That's exactly how it should be IMO. Not ignoring the guns, but not the main focus of attack.