128 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...
Ideally, sentinal or pure biotics could play the entire game without pulling a trigger. This would be a viable option if they were noticeably and considerably less accurate than a soldier. But with universal combat mechanic between all classes, those "non-combat" classes would indeed be overpowering. Personally, I'd love for my pure biotic not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with her pistol, since it would force me to do exactly what she should do: use pure biotics! It would really step up replayability amongst the classes.

I disagree. Mass Effect is not a Fantasy RPG where you can play a mage that only casts magic. Shepard is an N7 (the Special Forces in the Alliance), so you are trained in weapons, no matter the class. This allows you to alternate between casting and shooting. Being an N7 and not actually being able to shoot a weapon would be a really bad idea; although Mass Effect 1 kind of already did that, which was rectified in Mass Effect 2.

....it should be.

claiming shepard shouldnt be able to complete the game as a pure biotic becasue hes only an N7 soldier IS NOT the reason why shepard cant complete the game as a pure biotic. just putting that "N7 soldier" label on shepard is something ive never done in either game. hes a soldier, sure. hes got weapons, sure. but hes also got friggin biotics. i mean do you really think biotic characters in the ME universe can ONLY push and pull people around. there should be abilities like "limb remover" or "skull crusher" but thats a problem of the current state of videogames. maybe in ME4 on the XBOX740 well have the capabilities of actually doing major damage as a biotic character.

have you ever played infamous? no weapons, no problem!

Mass Effect was never meant to be played like Infamous on the "caster" class. I don't think that never crossed the developers minds. Anyway...

meh, im not concerned about what bioware did or didnt say about its own game. im saying it could be played that way. probably fairly easily too. just allow more damage dealt on impact. implement combinations like lift+slam should be OSOK. theres no doubt in my mind that a weaponless adept would potentially be the friggin awesomest ME experience possible.

[Shepard the Leper]

stonbw1 wrote...

Ideally, sentinal or pure biotics could play the entire game without pulling a trigger. This would be a viable option if they were noticeably and considerably less accurate than a soldier. But with universal combat mechanic between all classes, those "non-combat" classes would indeed be overpowering. Personally, I'd love for my pure biotic not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with her pistol, since it would force me to do exactly what she should do: use pure biotics! It would really step up replayability amongst the classes.

Then you're playing the wrong game. ME does not have casters - which has been confirmed by the devs many times btw. You are meant to shoot AND use your special abilities, regardless which class you play. The whole point of the series is to combine shooter gameplay with special abilities and teamwork. Adept Shepard also isn't a biotic space mage, (s)he is an elite Alliance soldier with powerful biotic abilities.

lightsnow13 wrote...

I think their skill with guns should be accurate like in ME2. But they should be able to, if they want, just use biotics as their way of damaging.

Considering there was a tweet about how the adept was overpowered on insanity mode...I doubt we have anything to worry about.

You can easily complete ME2 with all classes without using guns; just like you can complete ME2 without using your special abilities. Progress will be very slow and dull, but it's possible. To get the most out of each class you have to combine weapons, squadmates and powers - as it's supposed to be.

I definitely hope the Adept isn't OP on any difficulty. The ME1 Adept is a joke and the, below Hardcore, ME2 Adept is a farce also. You're not fighting when enemies are not able to fight back - that's extremely dull. IMHO the ME2 Adept on HC/Insanity provides the best experience because you have to use your guns, powers and squadmates effectively to blast your way throug - and those are the three pillars of the combat system, taking away one of em is ME blasfemy.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Hope the throw ugrade will make firing your weapon irrelevant.

[Someone With Mass]

I think it's a little pointless to have separate cooldowns too, since only the Sentinel would benefit from it.

Most powers in ME3 have alternatives to the cooldown, anyway, like the Vanguard's Nova that drains your shields.

[Candidate 88766]

If the game were true to the lore then a biotic would be able to use a few powers per mission before becoming utterly exhausted. And no one wants that.

Thats why biotics are generally skilled with conventional weapons as well - they can only do so much before becoming too tired to fight. Biotics bolster their combat performance with their abilities rather than relying on their abilities, and their abilities alone, to fight. Saying that biotics should be able to fight with their biotic powers alone is silly.

Also, its for gameplay balance. If the gameplay has to occasionally stretch the lore a little bit then thats fine. Its the lore of a videogame; as the saying goes, its not Gospel.

[NightAntilli]

I really don't get why people are saying that the Sentinel would be overpowered. I mean, stuff like concussive shot, adrenaline rush, fortification, flash bang, those are all non-tech and non-biotic. Those could also be on a separate recharge timer.

[The Spamming Troll]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

stonbw1 wrote...

Ideally, sentinal or pure biotics could play the entire game without pulling a trigger. This would be a viable option if they were noticeably and considerably less accurate than a soldier. But with universal combat mechanic between all classes, those "non-combat" classes would indeed be overpowering. Personally, I'd love for my pure biotic not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with her pistol, since it would force me to do exactly what she should do: use pure biotics! It would really step up replayability amongst the classes.

Then you're playing the wrong game. ME does not have casters - which has been confirmed by the devs many times btw. You are meant to shoot AND use your special abilities, regardless which class you play. The whole point of the series is to combine shooter gameplay with special abilities and teamwork. Adept Shepard also isn't a biotic space mage, (s)he is an elite Alliance soldier with powerful biotic abilities.

lightsnow13 wrote...

I think their skill with guns should be accurate like in ME2. But they should be able to, if they want, just use biotics as their way of damaging.

Considering there was a tweet about how the adept was overpowered on insanity mode...I doubt we have anything to worry about.

You can easily complete ME2 with all classes without using guns; just like you can complete ME2 without using your special abilities. Progress will be very slow and dull, but it's possible. To get the most out of each class you have to combine weapons, squadmates and powers - as it's supposed to be.

I definitely hope the Adept isn't OP on any difficulty. The ME1 Adept is a joke and the, below Hardcore, ME2 Adept is a farce also. You're not fighting when enemies are not able to fight back - that's extremely dull. IMHO the ME2 Adept on HC/Insanity provides the best experience because you have to use your guns, powers and squadmates effectively to blast your way throug - and those are the three pillars of the combat system, taking away one of em is ME blasfemy.

who cares about any of that??? and why are you hinging your argument on what the devs "said?" jesus if i had a nickle for every time the devs retconed what theyve said prior, id have a butt load of nickles.

what they are saying is the game could be BETTER if adepts werent required to use weapons. how does 1000 newtons of force not do more damage, and how come enemies get right up after i blow them into a wall 50 feet away? its not that bioware doesnt want adepts to play without weapons, its that they CANT have adepts play without weapons.

im under the impresion that shepard wont/cant/shouldnt require certain squadmates in ME3. arrival, and all of the loyalty missions in ME2 are a great indication of why we shouldnt be required to have certain squadmates with us. in the leaked demo, shepards squadmate is only cptn anderson, and hes not a tech character. so is my adept gameplay going to take a huge nosedive, becasue the game requires me to have a squadmate with overload, but then directly gives me a squadmate without overload? its really awesome having squadmates running and gunning with me, but ive never been a fan of requiring them to play the game. they are more an extension of shepards abilities, then anything else.

[The Spamming Troll]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think it's a little pointless to have separate cooldowns too, since only the Sentinel would benefit from it.

Most powers in ME3 have alternatives to the cooldown, anyway, like the Vanguard's Nova that drains your shields.

then again, how many players use a bonus power that doesnt belong in their classes structure. how many adepts are using energy drain, and how many soldiers are using stasis? ive always felt playing that sepereate cooldowns should be a feature of the sentinel. i think amplification allows for faster cooldowns while fliping between biotics and techs, which i think makes sense on paper, but wont be very tempting in game.

what else besides nova works like that? PM if there is, i love hearing about abilities and weapons.

[RedCaesar97]

NightAntilli wrote...
I really don't get why people are saying that the Sentinel would be overpowered. I mean, stuff like concussive shot, adrenaline rush, fortification, flash bang, those are all non-tech and non-biotic. Those could also be on a separate recharge timer.

Actually, that is precisely why the Sentinel would be the most overpowered class if Tech, Biotic, and Combat (including ammo) abilities were all on separate cooldowns.

With bonus powers, Soldier, Adept, and Engineer can have two of three types of powers, while Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel can have all three. Although if you take the ME2 power set, Vanguard and Infiltrator only really has biotic and tech powers, since their combat abilities are ammo powers. So that leaves the Sentinel with the only class--with a bonus power--that can have all three abilities. So if each ability type were on a separate timer, then the Sentinel could cycle through powers:
Combat > Tech > Biotic > repeat

For example:
Flashbang > Overload > Warp

No other class would be able to do that. And the only way you could get something like that to work would be to have longer cooldowns (12+ seconds?) and give each class cooldown bonuses to their respective power leanings (for example, Adepts get cooldown bonuses to biotics). That is not something that would work very well in my opinion.

[Abraham_uk]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...
I really don't get why people are saying that the Sentinel would be overpowered. I mean, stuff like concussive shot, adrenaline rush, fortification, flash bang, those are all non-tech and non-biotic. Those could also be on a separate recharge timer.

Actually, that is precisely why the Sentinel would be the most overpowered class if Tech, Biotic, and Combat (including ammo) abilities were all on separate cooldowns.

With bonus powers, Soldier, Adept, and Engineer can have two of three types of powers, while Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel can have all three. Although if you take the ME2 power set, Vanguard and Infiltrator only really has biotic and tech powers, since their combat abilities are ammo powers. So that leaves the Sentinel with the only class--with a bonus power--that can have all three abilities. So if each ability type were on a separate timer, then the Sentinel could cycle through powers:
Combat > Tech > Biotic > repeat

For example:
Flashbang > Overload > Warp


No other class would be able to do that. And the only way you could get something like that to work would be to have longer cooldowns (12+ seconds?) and give each class cooldown bonuses to their respective power leanings (for example, Adepts get cooldown bonuses to biotics). That is not something that would work very well in my opinion.

I've said this before. The global cooldown represents Shepard and
his/her squadmates regaining focus. Spamming loads of powers isn't as
effective as using one at a time. That is a lore reason for the global cooldown. So this is irrespective of tech, biotics an combat abilities.

Theoritically Shepard can still spam them all at once, but that would tire him/her out very quickly.

With biotics he/she will have migranes from spaming biotic abilities.
The omnitool would overheat from too many tech powers used at once.
Weapons would overheat from too many usages at once.
Plus that kind of multi-tasking would be impossible to do.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 22 décembre 2011 - 11:13 .

[The Spamming Troll]

^
ive never come across a "tired out bar" or accidentally overloaded my tech amp from using too many tech mines, and ive never had an opportunity to enhance my 'focus' so i wouldnt get headaches either. maybe they did something like that in the comics, but im assuming the comics dont mention having only one cooldown for all their abilities either. so i feel like thats somewhat irrelevant.

ME1 featured separate cooldown, in which i could literally roll through my entire ability set and by the time i used my last one, the first one was ready for use. so i spammed the heck out of my abilities, without a global cooldown too.

[sympathyforsaren]

Real answer: its easier (and cheaper) to develope it like that. Bam...one cooldown.

It doesn't matter if it don't make sense or isn't as good. It's easier (and cheaper) to develope it like that.

[someone else]

Abraham_uk wrote...
I've said this before. The global cooldown represents Shepard and his/her squadmates regaining focus. Spamming loads of powers isn't as effective as using one at a time. That is a lore reason for the global cooldown. So this is irrespective of tech, biotics an combat abilities.

And been just as wrong.    First off, you're simply not on the right page. No one disputes that biotics and techs should each have a class cooldown - the issue is why should there be one for both?

Tech power are T-E-C-H - they run off different power sources than biotics entirely, don't require 'focus', and using them is not physically taxing.   And if you think biotics depend on an omnitool, go tell Jack she really didn't take down three mechs coming straight out of cyro - and you might mention somethin similar to Samara.

Your idea that spammed powers would loose efficacy is empty speculation - you can't know  because you can't do it in ME2 - & in ME1 you can spam all you like no problema.   Moreover, you conveniently ignore medigel and ammo cooldown - how do those require "regaining focus?"  You're simply wrong. Again.

There's only one real reason there's a global cooldown for all power classes  - the Devs wanted it that  way.   To my mind, it doesn't make sense - but any idea that's lore is fantasy or hokum.

Modifié par someone else, 23 décembre 2011 - 01:00 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

someone else wrote...

And been just as wrong.    First off, you're simply not on the right page. No one disputes that biotics and techs should each have a class cooldown - the issue is why should there be one for both?

Tech power are T-E-C-H - they run off different power sources than biotics entirely, don't require 'focus', and using them is not physically taxing.   And if you think biotics depend on an omnitool, go tell Jack she really didn't take down three mechs coming straight out of cyro - and you might mention somethin similar to Samara.

Your idea that spammed powers would loose efficacy is empty speculation - you can't know  because you can't do it in ME2 - & in ME1 you can spam all you like no problema.   Moreover, you conveniently ignore medigel and ammo cooldown - how do those require "regaining focus?"  You're simply wrong. Again.

There's only one real reason there's a global cooldown for all power classes  - the Devs wanted it that  way.   To my mind, it doesn't make sense - but any idea that's lore is fantasy or hokum.

Eh, it's all gameplay elements to me. If we followed the lore Shepard would be as good as dead the instant his/her shields were broken, would only be able to launch two or three biotic abilities per mission before tiring himself (Cerberus tinkering might affect this), and a biotic singularity would make the enemy get engufled a la blackstorm rather than being a power that can hold an enemy for an extended period of time.

The global cooldown is a difficulty tweak, which might be more noticeable on higher difficulties. If the soldier could cast Area Reave followed by Adrenaline Rush, followed by Area Reave, Repeat ad nauseam, there would be even less stopping the class than there already is. And the sentinel has already been mentioned.

You might not like it or agree with me, but to me the global cooldown is an excellent way to implement a punishment/reward system with the powers.

Fighting organics? Incinerate is the way to go.

Fighting synthetics? Shouldn't have used Incinerate, now I'm on cooldown.

See? It's just gameplay elements. And the gameplay can gently caress the lore for all I care, as long as it's solid. 

[RyuujinZERO]

I noticed everyone conveniently ignored my post on the first page and NOBODy has brought this up since because it's better to throw needless drama around than address a GENUINE BONE THEY HAVE TOSSED THE SENTINELS.

One word: Amplification

If you take ranks in amplification, it reduces the cooldown of your next tech/biotic skill respectively when you use a power from the opposite school. they havn't eliminated the cooldowns, but they HAVE given sentinels a class-specific skill that lets them spam their abilities more often than other classes to represent the fact they ARE using abilities from two seperate sources.

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 23 décembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[someone else]

@mi-chan
Point is, i DO agree - that's exactly why its there from everything that's been said - its gameplay 100%, lore 0% -that it doesn't jibe with the lore is just collateral damage

@ryuujinzero - sorry i have a severe allergy to spoilers & avoid most anything me3 - if fixed inme3 yay

Modifié par someone else, 23 décembre 2011 - 04:51 .

[InvincibleHero]

someone else wrote...

And been just as wrong.    First off, you're simply not on the right page. No one disputes that biotics and techs should each have a class cooldown - the issue is why should there be one for both?

Tech power are T-E-C-H - they run off different power sources than biotics entirely, don't require 'focus', and using them is not physically taxing.   And if you think biotics depend on an omnitool, go tell Jack she really didn't take down three mechs coming straight out of cyro - and you might mention somethin similar to Samara.

Your idea that spammed powers would loose efficacy is empty speculation - you can't know  because you can't do it in ME2 - & in ME1 you can spam all you like no problema.   Moreover, you conveniently ignore medigel and ammo cooldown - how do those require "regaining focus?"  You're simply wrong. Again.

There's only one real reason there's a global cooldown for all power classes  - the Devs wanted it that  way.   To my mind, it doesn't make sense - but any idea that's lore is fantasy or hokum.

Would you find this acceptable then? Your suit still has to provide the energy for a ME field which your biotics then shape. Your tech powers create a ME field as well. The suit only has so much power that must recoup from its power source or be exhausted.

[NightAntilli]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...
I really don't get why people are saying that the Sentinel would be overpowered. I mean, stuff like concussive shot, adrenaline rush, fortification, flash bang, those are all non-tech and non-biotic. Those could also be on a separate recharge timer.

Actually, that is precisely why the Sentinel would be the most overpowered class if Tech, Biotic, and Combat (including ammo) abilities were all on separate cooldowns.

With bonus powers, Soldier, Adept, and Engineer can have two of three types of powers, while Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel can have all three. Although if you take the ME2 power set, Vanguard and Infiltrator only really has biotic and tech powers, since their combat abilities are ammo powers. So that leaves the Sentinel with the only class--with a bonus power--that can have all three abilities. So if each ability type were on a separate timer, then the Sentinel could cycle through powers:
Combat > Tech > Biotic > repeat

For example:
Flashbang > Overload > Warp

No other class would be able to do that. And the only way you could get something like that to work would be to have longer cooldowns (12+ seconds?) and give each class cooldown bonuses to their respective power leanings (for example, Adepts get cooldown bonuses to biotics). That is not something that would work very well in my opinion.

What is the problem if no other class can do that? No one complained in ME2 that no other class can use all weapons at the same time aside from the Soldier. Same goes for ME3, unless you want huge penalties. The soldier would rarely run out of bullets without needing to run around for thermal clips while all other classes need to do that. That's a pretty big advantage.. Sure, the soldier doesn't have powers but... If you look at the Sentinel, it's basically a debuffer. What's so wrong in adding an additional option for more possible damage?

Also, doesn't it make sense that a biotic specialist or a tech specialist should get way shorter cooldowns than one who doesn't specialize in such things but is more of a hybrid? Then tweak the recharge timer.. Nothing wrong with that. It can easily work if done properly, and it's kind of logical that they are on a separate recharge timer. This is more of a story issue than a mechanics issue though. The mechanics are fine as they are really. If it was just for that I wouldn't change them, but, it just doesn't make sense for your biotic amp not to work after you just used your omnitool or vice versa. 

[RedCaesar97]

NightAntilli wrote...
No one complained in ME2 that no other class can use all weapons at the same time aside from the Soldier.

 
I actually saw a few people complain. In ME1, 4 of the combat talents were tied to weapons (Carnage for Shotguns, Marksman for Pistols...). In ME2, no combat talent was tied to weapon types, but the default weapon loadout stayed the same, with Pistols divided into Pistols and SMG categories. You could gain a new weapon on the Collector Ship, but this also meant that the three special weapons--Claymore, Revenant, and Widow--were not available to all classes without modding.

This also meant that Soldiers never got to use SMGs. And yes, I would actually trade in Assault Rifles for SMGs if I could on my Soldiers.

Same goes for ME3, unless you want huge penalties. The soldier would rarely run out of bullets without needing to run around for thermal clips while all other classes need to do that. That's a pretty big advantage.. Sure, the soldier doesn't have powers but... If you look at the Sentinel, it's basically a debuffer. What's so wrong in adding an additional option for more possible damage? 

Without having played ME3, I cannot speak to how ME3 handles weapon and power balance. In ME2, the Soldier lacked a lot of abilities, but A-Rush and weapons were all you really needed. And once I got a handle on how aggressive play is rewarded in ME2, I very rarely ran out of weapon ammo on any class. 

The Sentinel can be a debuffer, but needing additional power damage was never an issue.

Also, doesn't it make sense that a biotic specialist or a tech specialist should get way shorter cooldowns than one who doesn't specialize in such things but is more of a hybrid? Then tweak the recharge timer.. Nothing wrong with that. It can easily work if done properly, and it's kind of logical that they are on a separate recharge timer. This is more of a story issue than a mechanics issue though. The mechanics are fine as they are really. If it was just for that I wouldn't change them, but, it just doesn't make sense for your biotic amp not to work after you just used your omnitool or vice versa. 

Tweaking the timer could work, but you would also need longer cooldowns to make it work. This would make a level 1 Shepard extremely terrible with long cooldowns.

And sure, it does not make real-world sense that omni tools and biotic amps would cause the other to go on cooldown, but in-game I am more than willing to suspend belief. Also, both are tied into your armor, so it may not be that much of stretch.

[someone else]

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...
[/quote]
Would you find this acceptable then? Your suit still has to provide the energy for a ME field which your biotics then shape. Your tech powers create a ME field as well. The suit only has so much power that must recoup from its power source or be exhausted. [/quote]

jackie-girl wasn't wearin much - well does she ever? - but you can bet whatever gear she takes into battle she didn't have in cryo - no "suit", no amp - did just fine against the mechs.  - She's extraordinary, but so are all the other crew and Shep -

Perhaps you could argue the amp (if you assume it helps with biotic cooldown as well as power amping) has to share power with an omnitool if the wearer has both - no reason for believing that one way or the other - Jack's RM is the only unequivocal example of pure biotics,  no problem on the power for three successive one-shots on Mechs!! - but no info on cooldown after that display  - we don't know if Samara wears an amp, but likely does.  So maybe - at least its plausible and not total speculation.

The idea has some merit, but I can't help the feeling all this is rear windowing - I don't think the devs really had a lore rationale - the upgrade paths aren't particularly enlightening - they ramp up damage and decrease cooldown but its not clear how (or maybe I don't read the codex entries closely enough)  - certainly not as  explicit as in ME1 - things may change in ME3 I hear.  but yeah, if not an explanation, at the very least a good excuse.

[Random citizen]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If the game were true to the lore then a biotic would be able to use a few powers per mission before becoming utterly exhausted. And no one wants that. 

Anyone know when this little idea actually found its way into the lore?

[CoffeeHolic93]

Random citizen wrote...


Anyone know when this little idea actually found its way into the lore?

As far as I'm aware, it was the books.

In addition to that, alliance biotics were on a 4500 calorie diet, and they were given a high-energy drink after biotic training - so it's very taxing on the body and metabolic rate. So unless you eat well before you go on a mission, and possibly during - you'll run out of juice.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Mi-Chan wrote...

Random citizen wrote...


Anyone know when this little idea actually found its way into the lore?

As far as I'm aware, it was the books.

In addition to that, alliance biotics were on a 4500 calorie diet, and they were given a high-energy drink after biotic training - so it's very taxing on the body and metabolic rate. So unless you eat well before you go on a mission, and possibly during - you'll run out of juice.

Whoa, you mean sort of a high-power low-resource mechanic that rewards careful planning and thinking in terms of the entire mission? Yeah, don't want anything like that getting into the game. Cooldown for the cooldown god! Spam for the spam throne!