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Renegades and Paragons should have equal consequences.

Débuté par SarunasAndSoOn , déc. 19 2011 05:06

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#301
My Dinner w Andre
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:16

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ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

#302
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:30

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ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


Really? Did you forget the Conduit? Without the Conduit, "we" wouldn't even be here. The Conduit is the only reason we had a chance against Sovereign in ME1. Now, guess how the protheans managed to create the Conduit. Oh yeah, they could build it because they studied the mass relays! Oh, and aren't the mass relays REAPER TECH? Yes indeed, they are!

Oh, and remember project Lazerus? Yeah, that was fun, using all that REAPER TECH to ressurect Shepard. Or did you forget about that too? Without the reaper tech in that body of your Shepard, he wouldn't even be alive in ME2.

Hmmmm, remember that one moment we had to go past the Omega 4 relay? Yeah, fun times. How did we do that again? Oh yeah, with that little piece of REAPER TECH called the reaper IFF!

And lets see, oh yeah, the Thanix Cannon! Boy, did that cannon save our precious Normandy from those nasty Collectors, didn't it? I wonder how we managed to build that awesome cannon? Oh yeah, now I remember! The Thanix Cannon was based on REAPER TECH!

Oh, and remember that one object that warned us about the early arrival of the reapers? Yeah, that object called Object Rho. Nasty piece of REAPER TECH, but it did warn us about the reaper's arrival. Without it, we would already be toast by now! Boy, are we glad that this piece of REAPER TECH worked in our favor, aren't we?


ODST 5723 wrote...

And your "perception" on this one seems to be countered by the Reapers themselves who have cycles of facts supporting their position.


Uhhh what? Care to explain yourself here?


ODST 5723 wrote...

Not to mention that you're pushing some fairly weak "facts" as evidence supporting your position here. For one, Object Rho and the Reaper IFF had some very dire consequences. Not to mention, Shepard's the lynchpin that holds that argument together.


Oh realy?

Object Rho and the reaper IFF saved our lifes. No matter about the casualties and consequences, without it, we wouldn't be here. Sure, Shepard retrieved the IFF and sure, Shepard manged to stop the early arrival of the reapers, but without Object Rho and the reaper IFF, it wouldn't have been possible. <- Did you read that last part? YES? GOOD!


ODST 5723 wrote...

I also am not aware of it being established yet as fact that Reaper tech led to his resurrection. As much as I want to agree, I don't see that as haven been proven yet nless i missed something.


Read the Mass Effect books. It is a fact that it's reaper tech that's holding Shepard together. Ask anyone who read the books, or go read them yourself. I believe it was said somewhere in ME2 too, but that I'm not sure about.

#303
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:37

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AlexXIV wrote...

What disturbs me is that you reason that because nothing happened in the past, nothing is going to happen in the future. It's like saying I walk this road for hours and I didn't meet anyone. So logically I will not meet anyone in the future either. Point is it can happen, even if not in the past. And don't get me started about giving it to Cerberus of all people ...


Straw-man, right there.

I'm not arguing that because it didn't hapepn in the past, it won't happen in the future. I'm well aware of the risks. But it's a risk I'm willing to take if it means we gain more intel on the reapers. Heck, it's a risk we all SHOULD take because hell, without any intel, we don't stand a chance!

Now, will the Collector base provide us with the info needed to defeat the reapers? Maybe, maybe not. But we will never find out if we blow it up!

What if we blow up the Collector base and then when the reapers arrive, we still have no idea how to defeat them? Wouldn't you always wonder if you might have thrown away valuable infomation when you blew up that base? Wouldn't you always wonder if keeping the base might have made a difference? You probably would, but you'll never know!


Since TIM is also a human being who's also trying to defeat the reapers, it makes only sense to give that base to him. Sure, if it was an option, I might have considered giving the base to the Alliance. But sadly, that option is not available in the game. So the only reasonable thing left to do is keep the base and give it to TIM. Destroying the base is just NOT a smart thing to do.

#304
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:37

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My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Says who?

Modifié par jreezy, 21 décembre 2011 - 12:38 .

#305
My Dinner w Andre
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:48

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jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Says who?


Says the reapers. Every piece of mass effect technology is derrivative of their technology. That's the whole point of the trap, isn't it?

#306
DiebytheSword
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:52

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jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Says who?


No, he's actually right.  You could say that the age humantiy is in is based exclusively on data mined from Prothean Relics, which in turn is based entirely off their efforts to mine the previous cycles technology, if not the mass relay network and the citadel itself.  This is the nature of the trap layed, Thanix, EDI, even the mass effect field itself are all the work of whatever race spawned the first Reaper.  That said, travelling further into the trap may or may not yeild better results. 

If you take from the Reapers, you are still developing along paths they desire.Image IPB

#307
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:53

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My Dinner w Andre wrote...

jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Says who?


Says the reapers. Every piece of mass effect technology is derrivative of their technology. That's the whole point of the trap, isn't it?

They've said that? I don't recall.

#308
DiebytheSword
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 12:57

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jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Says who?


Says the reapers. Every piece of mass effect technology is derrivative of their technology. That's the whole point of the trap, isn't it?

They've said that? I don't recall.


Vermire dialogue with Sovereign reveals that the citadel and mass relay network are the legacy of Sovereign's kind.

#309
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:02

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Andorfiend wrote...

You also fail to mention that research into reaper tech has produced far fewer hits than misses. Usually it results in the entire research team getting indoctrinated and/or husked.


Oh really? Can you back this claim up? As far as I remember, the study of reaper tech has given us lots of benefits. Heck, it saved our lifes! Why won't any of you even get this? WITHOUT STUDYING REAPER TECH, WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE!

HECK, without studying reaper tech, the entire story of Mass Effect would have never happened! The reapers would have invaded the galaxy through the Citadel as always and there would be nothing to stop them. The Cycle would have continued and we would be harvested by now.

Do I need to spell it out for you?

THE ONLY REASON THE CYCLE DIDN'T CONTINUE, IS BECAUSE OF THE CONDUIT, which was build by the protheans after studying the Mass Relays, WHICH ARE REAPER TECH!


Andorfiend wrote...

If we could give the base to someone besides TIM (and I have no idea why we can't, since the Normandy is the only ship capable of using the Omega-4 relay, but let's ignore that) then I think a pretty good argument could be made for keeping the base. TIM however has a magnificent track record of botched Reaper tech research (hint: The thanix cannon was developed by the Turians, not Cerberus) and since he is a black ops douchebag another screwup runs a far higher risk of leaking indoctrinated agents than a properly managed project with oversight backed up by cruisers would.


Really? Did you forger who put Shepard back in the first place? And did you forget what made this Lazerus Project possible in the first place?

Answer to question 1: The Illusive Man
Answer to question 2: Reaper tech

Sure, I totally agree that if the option was given, I'd rather give the Collector base to the Alliance. But that's not an option. Giving the Collector base to TIM is a much better choice than the alternative, which is blowing up the base, meaning blowing up possible valuable info on the reapers, meaning blowing up a possible solution to the reaper invasion.



Andorfiend wrote...

It's a risk/reward equation.

The reward is gaining Reaper tech. Giving the short timeline until the Reaper arrival the odds of gaining new tech in time to put it into production and then the field seems pretty slim. This makes the attainability of the reward a long shot.


You don't know anything about the time of the reaper arrival when you make that decision. So using this knowledge when making this decision is meta-gaming. I don't do that. I don't meta-game when I make my decisions in Mass Effect.

But hell, even given the short time, it's still better to TRY to develop new tech based on the Collector base, than not trying at all! DERP!


Andorfiend wrote...

The risk is two-fold. One risk is that the research team will get indoctrinated and fall under Reaper control giving them highly skilled and dangerously placed agents. The most likely outcome of that? They go ahead and give us some new tech to give to our troops in the field. Sadly this new tech has not had the indoctrination tech stripped out of it. Pretty big potential risk.


This risk can be eliminated if we keep a close eye o the research team, limit the time of each person on the Collector base and let the actual research and tech-development take place in a containment lab.

Use the Collector base only to strip parts from it or harvest data from it, and actually analyze it somewhere in a controlled environment. You don't need to be a genuis to come up with this. Hell, even you could have come up with this if you actually gave it some thought.


Andorfiend wrote...

The second risk factor is the TIM will attain some genuinely usefull new tech but then use it in a counter-productive fashion. Given TIMs track-record that's almost a certainty. He'll probably think he's doing what needs to be done, but I don't trust his judgement. At all.


TIM and you have a common goal: Defeat the reapers. And I'm tired of repeating myself, but I'll say it AGAIN: LETTING THE ILLUSIVE MAN TRY TO CREATE NEW TECH BASED ON WHAT HE FINDS IN THE COLLECTOR BASE, IS STILL A BETTER OPTION THAN NO TECH AT ALL!

Don't you get it? Without taking these risks, you'll have nothing NOTHING! You'll have to rely on some kind of miracle or Deus Ex Machina, because with regular brute force you're not going to defeat the reapers and you know it! How is relying on a miracle or a Deus Ex Machina a smart thing to do?

Besides, TIM doesn't always fail. TIM gets results too. Project Lazerus comes to mind. Without it, Shepard wouldn't even be alive!


Andorfiend wrote...

So of the three outcomes possible from keeping the base (Reward, nothing, bad stuff) the reward seems to be by far the smallest chance,


SAYS WHO?

You're delusional. The chance of bad stuff to happen is not bigger than the chance we get a reward.


Andorfiend wrote...

and the risk is large both in chance of ocurrence and potential threat. Worst of all the most harmfull 'bad stuff' scenario is indistingishable from the reward scenario until it's far, far too late.


The risk is not large and certainly not larger than the chance of gaining positive stuff.


Listen, and listen carefully: Without some potential tech or mechanism against the reapers, WE'RE ALREADY SCREWED! So doing nothing, means we're already screwed!

Do I need to spell it out for you?


When keeping the base, 4 scenarios are possible:

1. We find the solution against the reapers. PROFIT!
2. We don't find the solution, but still useful tech which gives us a chance against the reapers. PROFIT!
3. We find nothing, but nothing bad happens. Still, we stand no chance against the reapers. SCREWED!
4. We find nothing, but something bad happens. However, we're already screwed by the reapers, so it doesn't really matter. SCREWED!


While destroying the base results in only 1 scenario:

1. No base, means no tech, means no chance against the reapers. SCREWED!


See? Destroying the base comes at a higher risk than keeping it! Because you risk throwing away your only possible solution against the reapers! You have nothing else at this moment! NOTHING!

Next time when you blow up that base, think about this. Now you know what to do. :)

Modifié par Luc0s, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:04 .

#310
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:07

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DiebytheSword wrote...

jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Says who?


Says the reapers. Every piece of mass effect technology is derrivative of their technology. That's the whole point of the trap, isn't it?

They've said that? I don't recall.


Vermire dialogue with Sovereign reveals that the citadel and mass relay network are the legacy of Sovereign's kind.

If those two things were the origins of Mass Effect technology I'll believe the previous "Every piece of mass effect technology is derivative of their technology" assessment made. I'm not too sure that's the case since Sovereign didn't say that but it's easy to be mistaken when it comes to this.

Modifié par jreezy, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:07 .

#311
My Dinner w Andre
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:09

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jreezy wrote...

They've said that? I don't recall.


You've honestly been oblivious to a major running element of the Mass Effect trilogy that has been referenced by both Sovereign and again by Legion in ME2?

#312
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:09

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Luc0s wrote...
*snip*

I could've sworn you were advocating for destroying the base in another thread.

#313
billy the squid
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:10

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DiebytheSword wrote...

Vermire dialogue with Sovereign reveals that the citadel and mass relay network are the legacy of Sovereign's kind.



Sovereign was sinister, paticularly that conversation, it was very well done. Harbinger, although I still like him, seems more akin to intergalactic trolling. "I know this hurts you shepard...*shoots shepard*... trolololol"

#314
DiebytheSword
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:11

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jreezy wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

jreezy wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.


EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Says who?


Says the reapers. Every piece of mass effect technology is derrivative of their technology. That's the whole point of the trap, isn't it?

They've said that? I don't recall.


Vermire dialogue with Sovereign reveals that the citadel and mass relay network are the legacy of Sovereign's kind.

If those two things were the origins of Mass Effect technology I'll believe the previous "Every piece of mass effect technology is derivative of their technology" assessment made. I'm not too sure that's the case since Sovereign didn't say that but it's easy to be mistaken when it comes to this.


Think of it this way, every piece of contemporary level technology has been spawned by studying something left by a previous cycle.  In our case, everything works with mass effect technology because the Protheans found and used the previous cycles tech as well as reaper tech.  The previous cycle would have used the cycle before them, and reaper tech.  The cycle before that?  You get the picture.  Eventually you go back far enough and the previous cycle belonged to the Reapers.  Every piece of Mass Effect technology ever made has been influenced by the Reaper's leftovers, directly or indirectly, which as Legion points out, blinds a civilization to alternatives.

#315
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:13

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DiebytheSword wrote...

Think of it this way, every piece of contemporary level technology has been spawned by studying something left by a previous cycle.  In our case, everything works with mass effect technology because the Protheans found and used the previous cycles tech as well as reaper tech.  The previous cycle would have used the cycle before them, and reaper tech.  The cycle before that?  You get the picture.  Eventually you go back far enough and the previous cycle belonged to the Reapers.  Every piece of Mass Effect technology ever made has been influenced by the Reaper's leftovers, directly or indirectly, which as Legion points out, blinds a civilization to alternatives.

Ah, that makes sense.

#316
DiebytheSword
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:14

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billy the squid wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Vermire dialogue with Sovereign reveals that the citadel and mass relay network are the legacy of Sovereign's kind.



Sovereign was sinister, paticularly that conversation, it was very well done. Harbinger, although I still like him, seems more akin to intergalactic trolling. "I know this hurts you shepard...*shoots shepard*... trolololol"


It is actually my favorite part of the of the First game.  Harbinger doesn't really annoy me, but I don't feel the same omnious menace from him that I got from Sovereign.  Which is, IMO, a good thing from a story standpoint.  Sovereign and Harbinger are different characters made from different species.  One announces our inevitable doom, and the other feels that its our salvation to be uplifted into Reaperhood.  I liked the first better, but in truth its not better or worse, just something I perferred.

#317
My Dinner w Andre
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:21

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Sovereign's speech is a pretty standard villain monologue. Doctor Doom gives these regularly.

Modifié par My Dinner w Andre, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:21 .

#318
DiebytheSword
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:22

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My Dinner w Andre wrote...

Sovereign's speech is a pretty standard villain monologue. Doctor Doom gives these regularly.


Standard or not, it is well done.  I don't look for things that don't recycle tropes, that's a fool's errand since we began to talk around campfires in caves.

I can enjoy anything standard so long as it holds up to these points:

*Did I enjoy it?
*Was I not insulted while experiencing it?
*Do I want my time back when I'm done?

Image IPB

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:24 .

#319
My Dinner w Andre
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:26

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A story that only recycles tropes, that is not more than the sum of their parts, is the very definition of trash fiction.

Modifié par My Dinner w Andre, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:26 .

#320
billy the squid
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:30

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My Dinner w Andre wrote...

Sovereign's speech is a pretty standard villain monologue. Doctor Doom gives these regularly.


It's hardly a monologue, he is answering the humsn's questions. Sovereign does a very good job of conveying that air of disdain and superiority when questioned by Shepard.

"Confidance born of ignorance..." he deigns to give some information, but dismisses the protagonist outright.

#321
didymos1120
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:35

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My Dinner w Andre wrote...

A story that only recycles tropes, that is not more than the sum of their parts, is the very definition of trash fiction.


Um, no, it's not.  "Trash fiction" is typically used as a synonym for "exploitation fiction".

#322
DiebytheSword
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:45

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My Dinner w Andre wrote...

A story that only recycles tropes, that is not more than the sum of their parts, is the very definition of trash fiction.


Then you choose to be disapointed in every story, everywhere.  Because nothing is really new.  Same themes, different window dressing.

I also believe I said well done.  Well done precludes that is not a trope quilt.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:48 .

#323
AVPen
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:50

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BellaStrega wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

A better example is the Collector base. You might hate TIM, you might hate Cerberus and you might believe the CB is an abomination, keeping it is still the most logical thing to do, whether your inner-self agrees or not. At moments like these, you need to let your head do the talking, not your heart.

Yes, but when you live in world where morality choices has consequences, then it's logical to take morality in equation.
(This is because we aren't robots, who makes decission based efficient only.)

Apparently, you think logic is robot-like, because you think it can only lead to one conclusion (the one you are invested in).

If you want an indoctrinated Cerberus, or at the very least a Cerberus loose in the galaxy with Reaper technology trying to promote human ascendancy and superiority over the other races, then yes, the most logical action is to hand the collector base over to The Illusive Man.

On the other hand, if you actually pay attention to what Cerberus does throughout the first two games, pay attention to what happens to everyone without exception who works in Reaper ships and around Reaper technology, and you pay attention to what The Illusive Man says and is careful not to say, giving the base to TIM makes no logical sense.  It's simply idealistic naivete that would lead anyone to believe that giving the base to TIM would lead to a positive outcome.

I'm deliberately overstating that, but it's for a good cause.

To quote one of my favorite NPCs from Mass Effect 2:
"I like this human. He understands."

Modifié par AVPen, 21 décembre 2011 - 01:52 .

#324
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Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 01:51

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didymos1120 wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

A story that only recycles tropes, that is not more than the sum of their parts, is the very definition of trash fiction.


Um, no, it's not.  "Trash fiction" is typically used as a synonym for "exploitation fiction".

Dictionary Man strikes again! Or maybe I should start calling you Wiktionary Man?

#325
Dean_the_Young
Posté 21 décembre 2011 - 02:33

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jreezy wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

A story that only recycles tropes, that is not more than the sum of their parts, is the very definition of trash fiction.


Um, no, it's not.  "Trash fiction" is typically used as a synonym for "exploitation fiction".

Dictionary Man strikes again! Or maybe I should start calling you Wiktionary Man?

'Mr. Right' usually does.
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