1127 réponses à ce sujet

[Andorfiend]

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

You also fail to mention that research into reaper tech has produced far fewer hits than misses. Usually it results in the entire research team getting indoctrinated and/or husked.
[/quote]

Oh really? Can you back this claim up? As far as I remember, the study of reaper tech has given us lots of benefits. Heck, it saved our lifes! Why won't any of you even get this? WITHOUT STUDYING REAPER TECH, WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE![/quote]

Exogeni team studied dragonsteeth. Got indoctrinated. Got husked. Tali dialogue indicates this in a known occurance termed 'machine cultists'. Ergo, there is established galactic record of this pattern repeating iteself.

A research colony got on Chaska sent dragonsteeth by cerberus. Got indoctrinated. Got husked.

Dr. Qian found Reaper artifact, got indoctrinated. Led to events of Revelations.

Saren took Reaper artifact, got indoctrinated, led to Mass Effect 1.

Saren feared indoctrination and led science team to study it. They got indoctrinated and were studied in turn by follow up teams...

Seeing a pattern yet?

Cerberus science team boards "dead" reaper. Gets indoctrinated in spite of what should have been full awareness of the risks. Got husked.

It's possible you don't consider my claim 'backed up' at this point. If so, no reasoned or evidence backed argument will sway you.


[quote]Luc0s wrote...

THE ONLY REASON THE CYCLE DIDN'T CONTINUE, IS BECAUSE OF THE CONDUIT, which was build by the protheans after studying the Mass Relays, WHICH ARE REAPER TECH![/quote]

You are failing to observe an important distinction. You are describing two distinct sets of things as "reaper tech". One is technology which the Reapers happen to use. This includes the Mass Relays, the Citadel, the Mass Effect, metals and fire. These things have a long established history of not presenting an indoctrination threat, and can be replicated safely.

The other set is the technology that makes up the Reapers themselves. It includes the Dragons Teeth and most Reaper body parts. There seems to be an inherent corrupting influence to these things and they have not been studied safely that we know of although there have been instances where useful tech has been derived from them. (I say that we know of because we have no knowledge of the state of the teams that developed the Thanix cannon for example. If you can cite in game references to the pristine mental condition of one such team I'd like to hear it.)

To put it another way, a gun is a gun. Whether it's a .45, an N7 sniper rifle, a collector beam weapon or a Reaper cannon makes no difference. We can probably study such things with impunity, unless they were deliberately trapped.

There are NO in game instances of anyone studying anything related to the construction of a Reaper which did not end in indoctrination. And that is exactly the tech TIM wants to study.

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

Really? Did you forger who put Shepard back in the first place? And did you forget what made this Lazerus Project possible in the first place?

Answer to question 1: The Illusive Man
Answer to question 2: Reaper tech[/quote]

1) Irrelevent: Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
2) Citation please.

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

It's a risk/reward equation.

The reward is gaining Reaper tech. Giving the short timeline until the Reaper arrival the odds of gaining new tech in time to put it into production and then the field seems pretty slim. This makes the attainability of the reward a long shot.
[/quote]

You don't know anything about the time of the reaper arrival when you make that decision. So using this knowledge when making this decision is meta-gaming. I don't do that. I don't meta-game when I make my decisions in Mass Effect.[/quote]

That rather depends on when you do 'Arrival' doesn't it? Since you can do it before the SM, you can go into the SM with an exact timeline.

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

The risk is two-fold. One risk is that the research team will get indoctrinated and fall under Reaper control giving them highly skilled and dangerously placed agents. The most likely outcome of that? They go ahead and give us some new tech to give to our troops in the field. Sadly this new tech has not had the indoctrination tech stripped out of it. Pretty big potential risk.
[/quote]

This risk can be eliminated if we keep a close eye o the research team, limit the time of each person on the Collector base and let the actual research and tech-development take place in a containment lab.

Use the Collector base only to strip parts from it or harvest data from it, and actually analyze it somewhere in a controlled environment. You don't need to be a genuis to come up with this. Hell, even you could have come up with this if you actually gave it some thought.[/quote]

Yes, I could have. In fact I did, if you had bothered to read my post. However we are discussing TIM, who has already lost AT LEAST THREE science teams to indoctrination. Not a stellar record of properly managing a known risk, wouldn't you say?

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

The second risk factor is the TIM will attain some genuinely usefull new tech but then use it in a counter-productive fashion. Given TIMs track-record that's almost a certainty. He'll probably think he's doing what needs to be done, but I don't trust his judgement. At all.
[/quote]

TIM and you have a common goal: Defeat the reapers. And I'm tired of repeating myself, but I'll say it AGAIN: LETTING THE ILLUSIVE MAN TRY TO CREATE NEW TECH BASED ON WHAT HE FINDS IN THE COLLECTOR BASE, IS STILL A BETTER OPTION THAN NO TECH AT ALL!
[/quote]

Look up the term counter-productive and get back to me.

Not leading marines into a Thresher Maw nest at all would have been better than what resulted.

Not torturing dozens of children to death and driving Jack crazy would have resulted in dozens more human biotics, and a more useful Jack. Would she have been as powerful? We have absolutely no way of knowing given the garbage science that went into making her. I'd give long odd that sending her to learn with an Asari would have produced a much more powerful and useful agent. We have no way of knowing however. We do know for a dead cold certainty that there would be dozens more human biotics in the galaxy without the Teltin program however. Is one powerful and crazy biotic who hates your guts and is a psycopathic killer better than dozens of weaker and loyal biotics? I'm going with "no."

The Rachni program got absolutely no results. It did lead to the death of every cerberus agent and scientist involved, the death of many Alliance marines, and could easily have resulted in an existential threat to humanity and even the galaxy at large.

Do you savvy yet? Why not take those scientists that TIM is almost certain to gety indoctrinated or killed and get them to replicate the Klendagon cannon instead? Why not use those resources to build an Ark ship and launch it into interstellar space for a few hundred years? Then humanity can survive this cycle, and have 50,000 full years to prep for the next one. To turn the Citadel into a trap for the Reapers instead of us.

It's a choice for how to allocate finite resources. I can think of better ways to spend them than on a death trap, and I bet you could too, if you tried.

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

So of the three outcomes possible from keeping the base (Reward, nothing, bad stuff) the reward seems to be by far the smallest chance,
[/quote]

SAYS WHO?

You're delusional. The chance of bad stuff to happen is not bigger than the chance we get a reward.[/quote]

I presented arguments for why the chance for reward was small. A short timespan for research coupled with the fact that to show a benefit the new tech must be manufactured, distributed, and trained in.

Kindly explain what reward you think we are likely to research that will be profitable given the logistics involved. Otherwise your argument has all the weight of a kid saying "It will too work! "

[quote]Luc0s wrote...
[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

and the risk is large both in chance of ocurrence and potential threat. Worst of all the most harmfull 'bad stuff' scenario is indistingishable from the reward scenario until it's far, far too late.
[/quote]

The risk is not large and certainly not larger than the chance of gaining positive stuff.[/quote]

The risk of producing indoctinating tech and distributing it galaxy wide is not a large threat? Justitify please.

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

Listen, and listen carefully: Without some potential tech or mechanism against the reapers, WE'RE ALREADY SCREWED! So doing nothing, means we're already screwed!

Do I need to spell it out for you?


When keeping the base, 4 scenarios are possible:

1. We find the solution against the reapers. PROFIT!
2. We don't find the solution, but still useful tech which gives us a chance against the reapers. PROFIT!
3. We find nothing, but nothing bad happens. Still, we stand no chance against the reapers. SCREWED!
4. We find nothing, but something bad happens. However, we're already screwed by the reapers, so it doesn't really matter. SCREWED!


While destroying the base results in only 1 scenario:

1. No base, means no tech, means no chance against the reapers. SCREWED!


See? Destroying the base comes at a higher risk than keeping it! Because you risk throwing away your only possible solution against the reapers! You have nothing else at this moment! NOTHING!

Next time when you blow up that base, think about this. Now you know what to do. 

[/quote]

Kindly explain how the Collector base will give us a magic wand that lets us win.

The Collector base is exactly equivalent to Sarens Krogan cloning facility. Does capturing the cloneing facility tell you how to kill an alredy existing Krogan horde? No. Blowing it up merely let's you stop a new horde from being made.

In point of fact the Reapers have already lost. The cycle is broken. If the Quarians have the brains of a turnip they will have already sent a self-sufficient group of live ships and escorts into the void between the galactic arms. In a thousand years they'll claim a planet and start preping for the next cycle. And with a 50,000 year head start and the resources of an entire galaxy, they'll win. If we're smart we put some colonists in statsis and joined them.

The current battle is just to save the people alive today, the future is already ours.

Do try and recall that we don't need a magic wand. Sovereign fell to purely off the shelf tech and weapons. And we've already made significant strides since then. Are we likely to save the billions of humans on Earth? Hell no. But I think we're likely to succeed at that purely short term goal without giving TIM another toy. He doesn't play well with others.

[My Dinner w Andre]

didymos1120 wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

A story that only recycles tropes, that is not more than the sum of their parts, is the very definition of trash fiction.

Um, no, it's not.  "Trash fiction" is typically used as a synonym for "exploitation fiction".

Would "genre trash" be more suitable?

[Labrev]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Oh really? Prior patterns which show that victory at the end of ME2 is no more difficult to attain for a predominantly renegade important than it is for a paragon one?[/quote]If you ignore the galactic setting, spectre status, the vanilla loyalty mission in which Renegade loses a squadmate's loyalty and a squadmate, and various other galactic settings of not.

So, sure. If you ignore the worldbuilding, it's all the same. If you ignore the worldbuilding, there's no context in the first place and we can only look at individual cases rather than patterns.[/quote]

And in the end, ME2 was no more difficult to complete for a predominantly renegade import and career as it was for one predominantly paragon import/career.

Galactic setting was the only thing notably different, and it came in the form of a single bitter turian shopkeeper and some throwaway lines here and there. Spectre status was even less significant than that, and it could still be had under a renegade import anyway.


[quote][quote]Patterns that show that show a paragon path leading to failure of a loyalty mission, relying on the dubious persuation system in the end?[/quote]When the dubious persuasion system is a key element, a Paragon exemption for the Paragon option of 'screw loyalty' is not a failure of Paragonism. It's the vindication of it. At worst, it says half-hearted Paragons fail... but pure paragons still succede.[/quote]

Except for the part where they let the bad guy gets away. I suppose you'd consider it a victory for Paragonism if Paragon Shepard loses the entire galaxy to the Reapers, but saves himself with a paragon persuade.


[quote]Unlike, say, the Tali loyalty mission in which the Renegade gets no exemption whatsoever for a non-persuasion Renegade selection.

Also unlike the Tali loyalty mission, unloyal Zaeed loses no signficant utility, and has no significant world-building consequence afterwards despite one of the largest PMC's in the galaxy undergoing a decapitation strike.[/quote]

Tali LM is no different from Zaeed's mission. Zaeed tells you what entails his loyalty, Tali tells you what does not entail hers (handing the Admirals the evidence). In both cases, the mission is failed. Besides which, there is an Intimidate option which nets the same outcome in the end as the ideal paragon outcome on Tali's mission, so that point is moot.

And again, not all decisions are made equal. Tali's mission is more important than Zaeed's. So what? The implications of Tali's mission involves two entire races. Zaeed's, a merc band. One that probably has no shortage of ruthless merc leaders to take over in the event of a death to Vido.


[quote][quote]Galactic extinction? Vigil's data file regained control of the Citadel.[/quote]But only temporarily. It's only a matter of time until Sovereign regains control.[/quote]

Where do we get the idea the Sovereign could regain control? There's a reason why Sovereign told Saren that it "needed him."


[quote][quote]Revisit ME: Genesis. At the point of the DA decision, no mention is made of the possibility that Sovereign will regain control of the Citadel. It was never a concern.[/quote]Genesis also made no mention of the Geth. Or Feros. And most of the other parts of the backstory and lore around the major choices.[/quote]

When you cut down a story that significantly, A LOT of details ultimately do not make it to the condensed version. They're details. The job of the interactive comic is to get across the story as a whole. Besides which, they probably figured the Codex would fill in the blanks for those that didn't know the story.


[quote]The percentage requirement raises, but it's a mid-low compared to the other persuades. If you put it off towards the endgame, however, all persuasion are out of the leage.[/quote]

Again, I know how it works - I explore all areas thoroughly to make sure not to leave points on the table. Still, I'm estimating I got roughly 75% of all available paragon points in said career, and that still wasn't enough to unlock the option at around mid-game. So you probably have to play for around 80% of all available points at the very least, but my guess is that it's closer to the 90s. You're convincing him to put 20 years of revenge behind him afterall, so you'd better be that persuasive. But early in the game with ME1 import bonus, every damn thing is easy to get (most of the "tough" disputes don't come until at least mid-game).


[quote][quote]Nope. The only objective of loyalty-missions is to secure the loyalty of a squadmate for the O4-mission.[/quote]Never says that anywhere in the game. Arbitrary definition.[/quote]

Loyalty missions are only there for one purpose: to make sure the squadmate is focused for the mission through Omega-4. It need not be said, it's understood.


[quote][quote]I stopped believing the "paragons always win" myth with this mission. If it were true, one would've been able to save the workers and then catch Vido. I figured as much when I first played and took the paragon path the first time. So much for that.[/quote]You also apparently began denying trends when you found what you felt the first non-uniformity.[/quote]

I deny nothing. These supposed "trends" are typically nothing more than overblown reactions from the faint of heart that are both playing the game and frequenting this site.


[quote]Since the Blue Suns are notorious in the in-fighting and backstabbing, it could also easily have lead to a sustained lack of consolidation. Or they could have introduced a plot thread of someone else (Zaeed, Cerberus, whoever) moving in if Vido died.

That they don't do anything with it is a weakness of the writing... and a lack of difference of the Paragon and Renegade outcomes. Distinction is good.[/quote]

... remember that ...


[quote]
[quote]Otherwise, Zaeed is another Grunt. And depending on the mission, that 1 point difference can mean the life or death of a squadmate, or maybe more.[/quote]Unless you deliberatly fail or don't do a number of missions, not really. Given that he's not a specialist in any situation, the only circumstance in which that point comes into play is... if you didn't do other loyalty missions. Zaeed always brings up the average to the survivability levels.[/quote]

Or if you made enough incorrect decisions leading up to hold-the-line. The BSN community is made up of fans that know how ME works a lot better than Joe Gameplayer. People I know irl who played the game made laughable decisions in their SM run (Thane for fireteam leader...), along with other F ups involving missions prior.


[quote]A refinery, the workers we didn't see, and no given worse actions by Vido compared to normal... is called a loss compared to Zaeed losing a couple rent-a-guns?

Your perception is off.[/quote]

So you're counting the refinery? If killing the leader of a major merc band is irrelevant because the consquences are not explicitly seen, what exactly makes the refinery a notable victory?

The workers can be seen, by the way. Unless you're suggesting other ones.

In the end, those rent-a-guns are dead because Shepard failed the mission in the first place, for the purpose of saving about the same number of refinery workers inside. So in the end, the paragon path essentially saved no one. In fact, the alternative renegade path - leaving Zaeed to die - turns out to be even better option than the pure paragon: one total death only.


[quote][quote]You will excuse me for not going down this path. A certain Lotion left a bad taste in my mouth.
[/quote]So making **** up through exageration is better?[/quote]

No exaggeration here, I'm just not going to explain it again to slow ones. My head still hurts thanks to Mr. Lavender.

And let me reiterate the original point I was making: these decisions are in the realm of moral grey-areas. Paragon =/= the morally right path. Renegade =/= the evil path. Both are justifiable on their own merits. Whether or not people can see the justifications behind them is their own problem.

[AVPen]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Unlike, say, the Tali loyalty mission in which the Renegade gets no exemption whatsoever for a non-persuasion Renegade selection.

Also unlike the Tali loyalty mission, unloyal Zaeed loses no signficant utility, and has no significant world-building consequence afterwards despite one of the largest PMC's in the galaxy undergoing a decapitation strike.

Tali LM is no different from Zaeed's mission. Zaeed tells you what entails his loyalty, Tali tells you what does not entail hers (handing the Admirals the evidence). In both cases, the mission is failed. Besides which, there is an Intimidate option which nets the same outcome in the end as the ideal paragon outcome on Tali's mission, so that point is moot.

I'm gonna have to somewhat disagree with that underlined sentence: Tali never states during her LM that if Shepard turns over the evidence on her father to the Admiralty Board, that she would stop being loyal to Shepard or wouldn't focus on his/her mission to stop the Collectors; Zaeed, on the other hand, practically tells Shepard straight out during the mission on Zoya (after he goes off half-cocked on his own and causes massive damage to the refinery that he had been contracted into saving/liberating) that if he/she doesn't help Zaeed to kill Vido right this second, then Shepard couldn't count on Zaeed's support to stop the Collector threat.

[BellaStrega]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Did studying the Reaper tech in Arrival end in success? I don't recall - can someone remind me?

Yes, it allowed us to destroy the Alpha Relay and prevent the Reaper's early "Arrival."

Had that not have been studied... observe the consequence:


NOT STUDYING YOUR ENEMY IS ALWAYS A BAD IDEA...

It only worked because of Shepard's intervention. The entire crew was indoctrinated and was going to allow the Reapers access to the galaxy.

It is better that it was studied, but do not pretend that it reflects an unfettered success. There was no time to evacuate the system - resulting in 300,000 dead Batarians, and it resulted in the lost of all researchers and other personnel involved in the project.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 21 décembre 2011 - 05:23 .

[BellaStrega]

Luc0s wrote...


If you believe otherwise, be free to lay out your arguments based on concrete and rational reasoning, based on the in-game FACTS.
I'll be more than willing to analyse your arguments and see if they can
match up against the arguments for saving the base that I just listed
here, based on the FACTS that I have.

No, you are not willing to analyze other arguments. You just say "You're wrong and Lotion and I are right" and then make dubious comparisons between human brains and computers.

The difference between you and I in this is that I can see that your logic is valid and I have followed similar logic in  playing the game. But you are unwilling to see the logic I and others  have presented - also based on concrete facts and rational, logical thinking - for making the paragon decision instead because you are emotionally invested in your "logical" decision being the one true answer. Neither you nor Lotion are actually engaging in this discussion in the manner that you are claiming to do, even if you believe you are.

This is why this inane argument never ends, because of people like you who are invested in browbeating others into agreeing with you that the only  rational, logical choice at the end of ME2 is to hand the collector base over to The Illusive Man.

Lumikki is correct in pointing that the flaw in Lotion's reasoning is an unwillingness to see other people's perspectives.

Also, I have yet to see either you or Lotion present a more coherent counter argument to what I have posted than "You're wrong." Not even remotely convincing.

And why am I here? I believe XKCD had a relevant strip to that effect once.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 21 décembre 2011 - 05:40 .

[BellaStrega]

Luc0s wrote...

Speak for yourself. If everyone always would be like this, science would be completely useless.

You think scientists create theories based on what they personally prefer? "Yeah, lets go with 'theory X' instead of 'theory Y' because I prefer the point of view from 'theory X' over the point of view of 'theory Y'.

If science worked like that, we'd all be taught creationism right now in schools in stead of the evolution theory.
Luckly for us, science doesn't work that way.

Also, you're wrong here. Scientists have to learn about confirmation bias and other cognitive errors that can taint their results. Scientists have to learn how to avoid this in their own results. There are also checks and balances, such as the way studies are peer reviewed, and others may perform research to confirm their results. This is why Dr. Wakefield was discredited for falsifying his research that vaccines cause autism (spoiler: they don't). This is why there was a bit of a scandal a couple of years ago over research used to show that combinations of pain medications were effective because much of that research was in fact wrong.

History is rife with bad research that was driven more by bias or politics than by the strict scientific method.

Perhaps you might find this link educational: http://boingboing.ne...science-th.html

[BellaStrega]

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.

EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Technology which was planted to direct the technological evolution of entire species. Unlike tech intended to be used by Reapers or their servants, which consistently tends to indoctrinate people. The collector base is not comparable to mass relays or the use of element zero.

[didymos1120]

AVPen wrote...

Zaeed, on the other hand, practically tells Shepard straight out...

There's alternate, cut dialogue from that conversation in which Zaeed actually says "And if you want my loyalty after this..."

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Zaeed, on the other hand, practically tells Shepard straight out...

There's alternate, cut dialogue from that conversation in which Zaeed actually says "And if you want my loyalty after this..."

Too bad for him that I was out to save those workers and not to satisfy his petty vendetta.

[Labrev]

AVPen wrote...

I'm gonna have to somewhat disagree with that underlined sentence: Tali never states during her LM that if Shepard turns over the evidence on her father to the Admiralty Board, that she would stop being loyal to Shepard or wouldn't focus on his/her mission to stop the Collectors; Zaeed, on the other hand, practically tells Shepard straight out during the mission on Zoya (after he goes off half-cocked on his own and causes massive damage to the refinery that he had been contracted into saving/liberating) that if he/she doesn't help Zaeed to kill Vido right this second, then Shepard couldn't count on Zaeed's support to stop the Collector threat.

Obviously your squadmates aren't going to say "You won't get a ring underneath my pic on your squad-screen if you take X option." I mean, it's a gameplay mechanic. I think her practically begging you not to show them the evidence had rather obvious ramifications regarding her loyalty.

[Someone With Mass]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Obviously your squadmates aren't going to say "You won't get a ring underneath my pic on your squad-screen if you take X option." I mean, it's a gameplay mechanic. I think her practically begging you not to show them the evidence had rather obvious ramifications regarding her loyalty.

Hell, I thought Garrus would be unloyal if I didn't let him pop Sidonis, because he was pretty convincing about where his goal was and that nothing would stop him from doing it.

Something as silly as losing sight of the turian on Thane's loyalty mission, which leads to him being unloyal is a bit of a stretch, though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

Oh really? Can you back this claim up? As far as I remember, the study of reaper tech has given us lots of benefits. Heck, it saved our lifes! Why won't any of you even get this? WITHOUT STUDYING REAPER TECH, WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE![/quote]

Exogeni team studied dragonsteeth. Got indoctrinated. Got husked. Tali dialogue indicates this in a known occurance termed 'machine cultists'. Ergo, there is established galactic record of this pattern repeating iteself.

A research colony got on Chaska sent dragonsteeth by cerberus. Got indoctrinated. Got husked.

Dr. Qian found Reaper artifact, got indoctrinated. Led to events of Revelations.

Saren took Reaper artifact, got indoctrinated, led to Mass Effect 1.

Saren feared indoctrination and led science team to study it. They got indoctrinated and were studied in turn by follow up teams...

Seeing a pattern yet?

Cerberus science team boards "dead" reaper. Gets indoctrinated in spite of what should have been full awareness of the risks. Got husked.

It's possible you don't consider my claim 'backed up' at this point. If so, no reasoned or evidence backed argument will sway you.[/quote]

What you fail to see, that pople getting indoctrinated/husked will happen anyway, and that getting advantraged over the reapers is what's importnat. The researches surviving is just a bonus.
Their lives are inconsequenatial compared to the salvation fo the galaxy.

Also, colonists and people who have no idea what they're deling with getting indoctrinated is not a solid argument against researching reper tech.
Actually there is no solid argument against researching reper tech.




[quote]
[quote]Luc0s wrote...

THE ONLY REASON THE CYCLE DIDN'T CONTINUE, IS BECAUSE OF THE CONDUIT, which was build by the protheans after studying the Mass Relays, WHICH ARE REAPER TECH![/quote]

You are failing to observe an important distinction. You are describing two distinct sets of things as "reaper tech". One is technology which the Reapers happen to use. This includes the Mass Relays, the Citadel, the Mass Effect, metals and fire. These things have a long established history of not presenting an indoctrination threat, and can be replicated safely.

The other set is the technology that makes up the Reapers themselves. It includes the Dragons Teeth and most Reaper body parts. There seems to be an inherent corrupting influence to these things and they have not been studied safely that we know of although there have been instances where useful tech has been derived from them. (I say that we know of because we have no knowledge of the state of the teams that developed the Thanix cannon for example. If you can cite in game references to the pristine mental condition of one such team I'd like to hear it.)

To put it another way, a gun is a gun. Whether it's a .45, an N7 sniper rifle, a collector beam weapon or a Reaper cannon makes no difference. We can probably study such things with impunity, unless they were deliberately trapped.

There are NO in game instances of anyone studying anything related to the construction of a Reaper which did not end in indoctrination. And that is exactly the tech TIM wants to study.[/quote]

You're wrong. You're saiyng all raper tech indoctrinates. It does not.
The Thanix and EDI are both part of the reaper. The IFF is part of the reaper. Tehy didn't indoctrinate.

And you can't really say which pice indoctrinates or not (AFAIK, there are specific indoctrination devices).
So you study everything.




[quote]
[quote]Luc0s wrote...
You don't know anything about the time of the reaper arrival when you make that decision. So using this knowledge when making this decision is meta-gaming. I don't do that. I don't meta-game when I make my decisions in Mass Effect.[/quote]

That rather depends on when you do 'Arrival' doesn't it? Since you can do it before the SM, you can go into the SM with an exact timeline.

You can do any DLC at any time strictly for player convenience, but canonicly, it takes place after the SM.
Also, you dont' know what can be found in two months. Even if it's a slim chance, ti's still worth going after.




[quote]
Look up the term counter-productive and get back to me.[/quote]

Look up the terms sane and reasonable and get back to us.




[quote]

Kindly explain how the Collector base will give us a magic wand that lets us win.

The Collector base is exactly equivalent to Sarens Krogan cloning facility. Does capturing the cloneing facility tell you how to kill an alredy existing Krogan horde? No. Blowing it up merely let's you stop a new horde from being made.[/quote]

Reapers are starships, no organics. You can dissasemble them and their machinery to get better guns, shields, wepons and stuff.
Youre comparison makes no sense.


[quote]
In point of fact the Reapers have already lost. The cycle is broken. If the Quarians have the brains of a turnip they will have already sent a self-sufficient group of live ships and escorts into the void between the galactic arms. [/quote]

Yeah, and those ships can survive thousands of years in space, wihtout planets.
And the reapers don't have far superior sensors and FTL.
And they don't hang around for thousands of years.


[quote]
Do try and recall that we don't need a magic wand. Sovereign fell to purely off the shelf tech and weapons.
[/quote]

Yes, because we took out a single reaper in a surprise attack in the best imaginable conditions that you won't be able to reproduce (immobile, not able to use all guns, busy, avatar destruction), we surely can take out all of them.

It's rather obvious that are chances in a conventional war are zero.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


If you believe otherwise, be free to lay out your arguments based on concrete and rational reasoning, based on the in-game FACTS.
I'll be more than willing to analyse your arguments and see if they can
match up against the arguments for saving the base that I just listed
here, based on the FACTS that I have.

No, you are not willing to analyze other arguments. You just say "You're wrong and Lotion and I are right" and then make dubious comparisons between human brains and computers.

The difference between you and I in this is that I can see that your logic is valid and I have followed similar logic in  playing the game. But you are unwilling to see the logic I and others  have presented - also based on concrete facts and rational, logical thinking - for making the paragon decision instead because you are emotionally invested in your "logical" decision being the one true answer. Neither you nor Lotion are actually engaging in this discussion in the manner that you are claiming to do, even if you believe you are.

If your arguments are based on facts then why didn't you post them?

You are emotionally invested in justifying your flawed choice. You aren't actually engaging in this
discussion in the manner that you are claiming to do, even if you
believe you are.

See, I cna do this s*** too.

Also, I have yet to see either you or Lotion present a more coherent counter argument to what I have posted than "You're wrong." Not even remotely convincing.

Because pure numbers and codex data are irrelevant when they dont' aagree with you, right?

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

What disturbs me is that you reason that because nothing happened in the past, nothing is going to happen in the future. It's like saying I walk this road for hours and I didn't meet anyone. So logically I will not meet anyone in the future either. Point is it can happen, even if not in the past. And don't get me started about giving it to Cerberus of all people ...

Straw-man, right there.

I'm not arguing that because it didn't hapepn in the past, it won't happen in the future. I'm well aware of the risks. But it's a risk I'm willing to take if it means we gain more intel on the reapers. Heck, it's a risk we all SHOULD take because hell, without any intel, we don't stand a chance!

Now, will the Collector base provide us with the info needed to defeat the reapers? Maybe, maybe not. But we will never find out if we blow it up!

What if we blow up the Collector base and then when the reapers arrive, we still have no idea how to defeat them? Wouldn't you always wonder if you might have thrown away valuable infomation when you blew up that base? Wouldn't you always wonder if keeping the base might have made a difference? You probably would, but you'll never know!


Since TIM is also a human being who's also trying to defeat the reapers, it makes only sense to give that base to him. Sure, if it was an option, I might have considered giving the base to the Alliance. But sadly, that option is not available in the game. So the only reasonable thing left to do is keep the base and give it to TIM. Destroying the base is just NOT a smart thing to do.

How is it a strawman if it adresses exactly what you said. You said you gain certainty by observing, analyizing, etc. which already makes me laugh tbh. Then you go on establishing that reaper tech has helped us before and as if it was based on logic, that we should continue to use/research it. And as an answer to my post you say ok, there are risks but I am willing to take it. The 'TIM is a human being' argument is also void. I am not going to do it here, but I can list several human beings in history who acted destructive/self-destructive. This human BS goes too far on this board anyway. Nothing about being human is suggesting trustworthyness. Maybe TIM thinks becoming a Reaper is preferable, maybe he thinks the Reapers are our unavoidable genetic destiny. TIM is nothing but a big unknown in this scenario and everyone who claims otherwise is just being delusive. 'Logic dictates' blah blah. It's not logic, you believe in him because you chose to, you want to. It is a purely emotional choice. The little bit of logic in it is merely the excuse for you because you can't deal with the fact that you give it to him because you like him.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 décembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm saying that I am right because I backed it up with something concrete. If I didn't have that backing me up, I wouldn't be claiming anything. Once you do the same, we can talk.

You don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say or I'm explaining it wrong ways to you.

You perception is yours only, you back up your concrete reasons from you point of view only, based on you perception. This is little like selective reading, but more like selective understanding. Everyone does it even without knowing. People picks up everyting what fits they needs and consept of understanding as what they want. More like I want it to be this way so they pick everyting up what supports that consept.

Fact are facts. Numbers are numbers.

I understand perfectly what you're trying to say, you file everything that doesn't suit you as "perception".
You can try to BS your way around it, but it's useless.

Numbers do not lie.

[AlexXIV]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Lumikki wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm saying that I am right because I backed it up with something concrete. If I didn't have that backing me up, I wouldn't be claiming anything. Once you do the same, we can talk.[/quote]

You don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say or I'm explaining it wrong ways to you.

You perception is yours only, you back up your concrete reasons from you point of view only, based on you perception. This is little like selective reading, but more like selective understanding. Everyone does it even without knowing. People picks up everyting what fits they needs and consept of understanding as what they want. More like I want it to be this way so they pick everyting up what supports that consept.[/quote]

Fact are facts. Numbers are numbers.
[/quote]

And you have neither.
[quote]
Numbers do not lie.
[/quote]

Numbers don't lie, but people do. And sometimes to themselves.

Looking into the mirror doesn't help much if you're denying what you see.

[/quote]

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andorfiend wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Lotion and I base our logical decisions (in our "logical Shepard" playthrough) not on what we personally prefere, but on what we factually observe (well, as far as facts in video-games go that is).


The reapers are comming, that's a fact.
The Illusive Man is in danger as much as Shepard is, that's a fact.
The Illusive Man cannot rule a galaxy if all life (including TIM himself) is destroyed by the reapers, that's a fact.
Thus, TIM and Shepard share a common goal; defeating the reapers. That's a fact.
Reaper technology has proven usefull in the past (Thanix cannon among other things comes to mind), that's a fact.
The Collector base is reaper technology that might give us intel on how the reapers function, based on the fact that the Collector base was used to create a (human) reaper. That's a fact.

So, keeping this Collector base instead of destroying it, is a logical thing to do. Handing it over to TIM is questionable, but we have no other choice at the time. Considering that blowing up the entire base is the only alternative, I'd say it's more sensible to keep the base and hand it over to TIM, than blowing up a possible valuable source of intel on the reapers.

If you believe otherwise, be free to lay out your arguments based on concrete and rational reasoning, based on the in-game FACTS. I'll be more than willing to analyse your arguments and see if they can match up against the arguments for saving the base that I just listed here, based on the FACTS that I have.

You are failing to include one important presupposition: That TIM will respond to these facts in a rational and lucid manner. TIMs track record makes this supposition highly suspect.

No, it's not. TIM is presented as highly intlligent.

You also fail to mention that research into reaper tech has produced far fewer hits than misses. Usually it results in the entire research team getting indoctrinated and/or husked.

Which, if usefull tech was found, is not a miss.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BellaStrega wrote...

My Dinner w Andre wrote...

ODST 5723 wrote...

Luc0s, studying Reaper tech never saved "our" lives and it remains to be seen if it broke the cycle.

EDI and the Thanix Cannon are both pieces of reaper tech. In fact, almost every piece of advanced technology used by the denizens of the Mass Effect universe is reaper technology. 

Technology which was planted to direct the technological evolution of entire species. Unlike tech intended to be used by Reapers or their servants, which consistently tends to indoctrinate people. The collector base is not comparable to mass relays or the use of element zero.

The "technological evolution" is BS.
The only "path" the reapers want us to follow is to use the mass relays as the main means of travel. That's it. Nothing more.

The Collector base is not comparable PRECISELY because the reapers don't want us to have it. Which makes it all the more valubale.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
How is it a strawman if it adresses exactly what you said.

Becasue it doesn't.
He claim that 10 out of 10 tims X happen, so it's highly likely it will happen again.

You on the other had argue that because 10 out of 10 times X happen, the 11th time Y is more likely. Which is a whole load of BS.

Re-visit statistics 101 please.

Maybe TIM thinks becoming a Reaper is preferable, maybe he thinks the Reapers are our unavoidable genetic destiny. TIM is nothing but a big unknown in this scenario and everyone who claims otherwise is just being delusive. 'Logic dictates' blah blah. It's not logic, you believe in him because you chose to, you want to. It is a purely emotional choice. The little bit of logic in it is merely the excuse for you because you can't deal with the fact that you give it to him because you like him.

Except he doesn't think so. Except he spent 20 years fighting the reapers.
It's funny how you have to ignore TIM's whole history and characterization in an attempt to justify your insane position,
Really, if you're so hell bent on that "we know nothing" route, then let me ask you thins - would you give the CB to Hackeet? Would you trust Haackett? After all, what do we know about him? He has less dialogue than TIM.
Maby he thinks we should all become reapers?

So stop being a raging hypocrite.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Fact are facts. Numbers are numbers.

And you have neither.

I suppose all those codex numbers and measurements from the game are nothing to you.

So a reapaer doesn't have 9 guns? He can't one-shot any ship? He can't withstand the firepower of a fleet for a long time? He wasn't defeated only because of Sheppard?
ALL of our major victories weren't facilitated by repaer tech?

I can go on and on and on, but your blindness is rather apparent.

Numbers do not lie.

Numbers don't lie, but people do. And sometimes to themselves.

Which you amply demonstrare for all of us.

[BellaStrega]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If your arguments are based on facts then why didn't you post them?

You are emotionally invested in justifying your flawed choice. You aren't actually engaging in this
discussion in the manner that you are claiming to do, even if you
believe you are.

See, I cna do this s*** too.

I have posted facts. You insist, against all logic and reason, that they are not facts. Therefore, it's clearly a waste of effort to discuss this with you.

Because pure numbers and codex data are irrelevant when they dont' aagree with you, right?

On the contrary, I said I agreed that your logic is valid, and I have used the same logic in game. But it is not the only valid logic available, just the only valid logic you're willing to acknowledge.

However, I think you're stretching the definition of "pure numbers" into a meaningless piece of taffy to make your point here, which actually rather undercuts it.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
How is it a strawman if it adresses exactly what you said.

Becasue it doesn't.
He claim that 10 out of 10 tims X happen, so it's highly likely it will happen again.

You on the other had argue that because 10 out of 10 times X happen, the 11th time Y is more likely. Which is a whole load of BS.

Re-visit statistics 101 please.

Maybe TIM thinks becoming a Reaper is preferable, maybe he thinks the Reapers are our unavoidable genetic destiny. TIM is nothing but a big unknown in this scenario and everyone who claims otherwise is just being delusive. 'Logic dictates' blah blah. It's not logic, you believe in him because you chose to, you want to. It is a purely emotional choice. The little bit of logic in it is merely the excuse for you because you can't deal with the fact that you give it to him because you like him.

Except he doesn't think so. Except he spent 20 years fighting the reapers.
It's funny how you have to ignore TIM's whole history and characterization in an attempt to justify your insane position,
Really, if you're so hell bent on that "we know nothing" route, then let me ask you thins - would you give the CB to Hackeet? Would you trust Haackett? After all, what do we know about him? He has less dialogue than TIM.
Maby he thinks we should all become reapers?

So stop being a raging hypocrite.

I explain it like that. You play russian roulette. You have 5 empty chambers and one with a bullet. So does everytime you pull the trigger make it more likely or less likely that the next time you shoot yourself? 10 out of 10 is not enough for maths. You only need one fail to disprove a theory but you need to prove that it will work everytime if you want to establish that it works everytime. You may have positive statistics. But anything based on statistics alone will fail. That's why we don't let computers make decissions. Common sense is more imporant than statistics.

He can spend 50000 years fighting reapers, what does it proof? That he can't cheat? That he can't come to the conclusion that we have no chance? That he can't think that serving the reapers is preferable to being wiped out? Yes I would give it to Hackett. Because I trust him. Hell I am not the hypocrite here who claims to be all logical. I like Hackett, I dislike TIM. I make an emotional choice. If you ever get to the point where you admit that it is the same for you, that you like TIM and trust him because of that, then we can talk about who's a hypocrite again.

[BellaStrega]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The "technological evolution" is BS.
The only "path" the reapers want us to follow is to use the mass relays as the main means of travel. That's it. Nothing more.

The Collector base is not comparable PRECISELY because the reapers don't want us to have it. Which makes it all the more valubale.

Which is why the Collector Base will simply result in an indoctrinated Cerberus. It's not intended for galactic use, and will have traps, like other Reaper technology (such as dragon's teeth, Object Rho, etc).

You completely missed my point, which was that the use of mass relays doesn't include indoctrination because the Reapers want the mass relay network to be used, or at least so Sovereign claims.